Witchcraft Mini Mafia II

On November 03 2013 10:44 Umasi wrote:

appeal to emotion, obviously scum, lynch this guy

On November 03 2013 10:50 Pandain wrote:
I feel like there are going to be the most meta and role discussions and speculation arguments we have ever seen.

This game is so complicated props to host

On November 04 2013 11:03 Vanesco wrote:
Yes that was me WaveofShadow (what name abbreviation do you prefer?). I haven't played with anybody here but ObviousOne was host of my only TL game (Newbie Mini Mafia 50). If you just look at like first 1-2 pages of day 1 of that then you realize that I start off pretty similar. I don't like to start of games with "oh how is everybody doing, lets have fun and make jokes guys". That contributes very little to town in my opinion and just putting something on someone will always get the conversation rolling. Overall I'm happy the game is being started (more seriously) and that suspicion is being put on people (even if it is me). We are never going to gain anything just sitting around and making jokes all day.

On November 04 2013 11:07 ObviousOne wrote:

Vanesco seems like a reasonable fellow at the moment, he was the tat to my tit, the business time to my business socks. I like his response here.

WoS could make that response as either side, I interpret his endorsement of Umasi purely as appreciation for that post. The tidbit about not even liking to sheep makes me lean more town than scum.

On November 04 2013 11:13 raynpelikoneet wrote:
btw i am going to be most likely useless this game, at least if WoS is town and dies.

On November 04 2013 11:22 raynpelikoneet wrote:
i mean not much posts, i say what i say when i have to say WoS, like now.

On November 04 2013 11:42 thrawn2112 wrote:
hey WoS, I think your vote was pretty dodgy, do you have any idea why I might be thinking that?



uhh I think I'm trying to ask why you instinctively thought that you would be whoever's "target of concern."

On November 04 2013 11:12 WaveofShadow wrote:

Why dat? I feel like my first instinct (meta aside) if I were analyzing a post like that would be scum making early excuses for himself. Seems like an odd conclusion to draw.

On November 04 2013 12:08 ObviousOne wrote:

You literally handed over any thread control you could have gained to someone else and that's not something I would associate with scum-you doing.

On November 04 2013 12:14 ObviousOne wrote:

It wasn't like a huge ass town read I got from it, just a leaning away from default null (unless you count my earlier joke about how all'a'y'all be scum). It's an interesting thing to track as the game progresses but most importantly it's day one and I'm establishing base-line reads. That doesn't mean I agree with Umasi's case or your sheeping of it but it's a nugget I extracted from it. It's interesting that you contest me on this, but that idea leads to WIFOM city so I'll not bother you with that.

On November 04 2013 12:33 hzflank wrote:
Umasi's first post was too how-to-look-town-101 for a first post with no follow-up.

“I will be firm and call someone scum because that is a town thing to do. That guy was not being firm, so he is the guy that I will call scum. Raaaar, I'm so townly!”

Umasi is my biggest scum read right now. Nothing to ask him really as I expect he will make a response to Van's response anyway, which is what I want to see.

On November 04 2013 12:30 raynpelikoneet wrote:
god i just realized i ahve been calling WoS "really good " as scum and i have only seen him play scum once, in a game i died N1.. :p

On November 04 2013 12:47 thrawn2112 wrote:
i'm out for a bit...fairly bland start so far

PSA: it is Nov 04 2013 which means I'm wearing a special hat for special people so I will likely NOT be sober at any given moment over the next 24-ish hrs

I don't see anything blatantly scummy atm, but I do want to throw this list out there:

rayn
WoS
Sylencia
OO
Vanesco
Umasi

if you aren't on this list then that means you either haven't posted, or you haven't posted anything memorable and as such you will be who I focus on first upon returning to the thread.

On November 04 2013 12:44 raynpelikoneet wrote:
I mean that i can read you if i am town / abuse your meta if i am scum.
I have no ide why i have done so before..

On November 04 2013 12:42 hzflank wrote:


Vanesco did not call out Sylencia for not being firm.

Who we are firm with is very alignment indicative.

On November 04 2013 10:30 Umasi wrote:

I think it's scummy that I read this and I can't tell if you think Sylencia is scummy or not, when my first impression was 'he's acting accusatory' (with your first line) but then continue reading and can't actually determine if you just think his thoughts are bad or if he's scummy for his lack of ideas on the setup and for him not looking up a player list.
Also, asking us not to discuss strategy is blatantly scum agenda.
##Vote: Vanesco
Also, I support claiming votes and actions after they occur, so once it's back to the blues being VTs and unviggable, can't really think of a downside.

On November 04 2013 13:10 hzflank wrote:
WoS has only played scum once? Then wth was he doing coaching me in my first scum game. I even said before it started that having WoS as a coach was a handicap, and still they let this uni-scummer coach us.

I think what Thrawn was getting at was this line:



You are aware that scum sometimes jump on to something. The thing that you don't mention is that scum tend to do this if they think at least one town will also jump on it, as that allows them to place/leave their vote on the target for a longer period of time. I could certainly argue that Vanesco did this with his first post, but then one may also argue that you did the same.

Basically, that sentence was a little bit hypocritical.



Well, sometimes a man....actually we are not having that conversation.



Yes. If you enter a game with a really direct post where you call someone scum, it is probably for one of two reasons. Either you think it's time that the game got rolling and you want to change the style of conversation that is taking place, or you want your first post to make you look like you are town.

Umasi wanted to look like he was town, because if he were trying to direct the conversation to be more about post analysis and scum hunting then he would not of added this last sentence to his post.



Ofcourse, it is fair to point out that trying to look like town does not always make a person scum. But trying to look like town in your very first post makes someone (Umasi) look like uncomfortable scum.

On November 04 2013 13:44 Vanesco wrote:
I don't get where this idea of my calling out Syl for not being firm is coming from. I just didn't like what he had to say and I decided that instead of people joking around I wanted to actually start the game, so I called him out. I didn't really take much of a stance because nothing in his response made me feel like he was scummy.

I'm having a really big scum read on Umasi currently. As explained before, in his first post I think only consists of 1 real accusation which is that I do not like talking about strategy since scum can meta it. To me it seems that he wants town to discuss strategy which leads me to the two most likely conclusions.
1) He doesn't know what to do, usually means a weak town and can be tricked easily by scum, or
2) mafia that wants to know the towns plans and how to use it against them
His only other post is him making a joke at somebody who thinks he's scum and then saying that I didn't pressure Syl hard (which I explain in the paragraph above). He then talks about how I don't like to talk about strategy which I explain why above. He mistakenly calls strategy "mechanics" when they are completely different things (in my opinion). I view mechanics as the rules of the game where strategy is how to play the game. I don't know if this is just me but it seems like he wants to blame that I'm not allowing people to discuss the rules of the game when infact I just don't like when people discuss the strategy they are going to use.

On November 04 2013 14:53 EchelonTee wrote:

On your point A, not wanting to talk about setup isn't necessarily scummy. Scum people love talking about setup because it allows them to stick in a lot of words without pressuring people. Look at me in Hogwarts.

Your point B I somewhat agree with.


What are you talking about? Your reasoning for not voting is that other people could sheep onto you without giving input.

The problem with that reasoning is as follows:
1.) You state that you have a "really big scum read on Umasi".
2.) If you have a big scum read on someone, it follows that you should want them lynched.
3.) If you vote them and people sheep on to you, those people are helping exact the lynch that you want.

If you have a big scum read someone, why do you have a problem with people agreeing with your read? Is your read on Umasi actually not "really big"? This doesn't make sense.

---

Gumshoe, you'd better start talking soon because in your last game (GoT Mafia) you said practically nothing and got vig'd N1 as a VT. I'd not like a repeat.

On November 04 2013 15:50 Vanesco wrote:

Well I agree with the reasoning which is why I decided to vote. Also since many people commented on it, it seems like a fairly normal thing to do on TL mafia and since I plan on playing many more games, it would be foolish not to adapt. Overall, regardless whether I was voting for him or not, I still stand by Umasi being one of my scum reads.

On November 04 2013 16:05 Vanesco wrote:

These are the points I agree with mostly. Since currently Umasi is my biggest scum read he would be my first lynch and then I would look more closely anybody who I think sheep'd in. I do not really agree on your point WoS that the first person I pressure in the game has to have my vote. I did not get a scum read from him, therefore I did not vote.

On November 04 2013 20:59 Sylencia wrote:
My guess is that OO misread Vanesco as Vayne(sco)

It would be fine if he was just absolving Vanesco, what bugs me is that hesitance, or rather how it sounds like Wos wouldn't really be suprised if Vanesco was scum. It reads more to me as posturing rather than reluctance. He placed a vote early in hopes of building some momentum, and when that mometum dropped he got off the train but positioned himself so that if it ever got rolling again, he could hop right back on under the basis that he suspected Vanesco all along. Which is a safe bet when you take into account Vanesco's recklessness (which may yet get him lynched if no better targets present themselves). Also Wos's shambly defence does Vanesco no favours, because it requires us to assume that Vanesco is terrible and should be disregarded if hes town. Sometimes it's enough to just neuter a townie, because as we all know, useless can be just as bad as scummy.

On November 05 2013 01:56 Sn0_Man wrote:
Also u were 3p in that game we played not so long ago. The one where you were shot as Survivor N1 right after BlazingHand claimed survivor as scum :D

On November 05 2013 01:55 Sn0_Man wrote:
No I never have stuff on Onegu thats the problem. Sneakiest mofo on the planet.

On November 05 2013 02:14 thrawn2112 wrote:


I don't think I've ever played with mafia syl. As town he's lurky and people always want to lynch him even though they know better. As for this game I'm not worried abotu him atm.

WOS: what do you think about the entrances of gumshoe and sn0_man

On November 05 2013 02:25 Onegu wrote:



Where did I say I like what you were doing in this game, I said I respect you as a person but never mentioned your play in the game until just now. Second go back and reread my first post on hzflank, its not just a attack, I call out his logic on umasi. It wasnt until I saw his back to being a jerk post that I talked about a policy lynch.

On November 05 2013 02:39 Vanesco wrote:
I don't like how WoS has been only on my case from basically the start of the game and his inconsistencies so far. He even points out to me not to talk about any games still going on but when Echelon does so here in direct response to WoS, he doesn't even mention it. These inconsistencies pop up many times in his play. He keeps on talking about the out I took from him when I even address that it was from Echelon and I disagree with him, yet he persist that it is because of his out. WoS says that "activity is not [his] only defense", however when you are confused why people would put suspicion on you you just say that you think your performance is decent and that you have a large filter. If somebody doesn't agree with your performance (which is why you might be on their scum list) then the only defense that's left is your filter. Overall I am leaning slightly scummy.

I don't really like your reasoning sno_man on the lynch on Onegu. Especially as a Day 1 lynch I think it would not be a wise move just lynching somebody because you have a hard time reading them.


This is the only thing thrawn has posted that seems relevant so far. It seems like he's not interested in any arguments on me and just goes straight at WoS for his post on me. It seems more like a deflection off of me and onto WoS. Maybe there was something more he wanted to say about WoS but he doesn't really have any useful information apart from the part i quoted above. Yes it was his special day but I do not like what he has contributed in the game so far.

My two strongest town reads in the game so far is Echelon and Sylencia. Echelon has made posts that make sense to me and his response to OO saying that Echelon was going "bat-shit" seems very level headed. I was comfortable with Sylencia's first response to my first post and he has stuck true to everything that he has said from the start of the game.

On November 05 2013 00:15 gumshoe wrote:



Why do I have to assume scum is playing bad? In fact this pond has been so shallow insofar, it's not really an accomplishment being the biggest fish. Speaking of accomplishments, I know the game hasnt gone on long enough but so far the biggest thing I've seen out of you is your waffling on Vanesco, and I've addresed that. Everything else you've said has been inconclusive, example



Your all over the place in this particular post, saying you find hz suspicious and then talking about how you liked his setup analysis play later on, also you just sort of acknowledging the stagnation of this thread and let it rest at that...

Nothing in here is really of any use, theres no hard cases or defences, it just feels like your pointing us in a direction you yourself havent even bothered to fully take yet. In general it feels like your spreading suspicion around hoping some one picks up on something.

Also this point



My theory is that hes town and your scum, his actions and responses to yours do not absolve you in any way. Stubborn and independent does not equal attack someone who defends you...

Your play just feels to tip toey for my liking, yes your active but in a cautious way and I dont consider town WOs the most careful of players. Also it's funny you find yourself transparent... I dont get that vibe at all, if you are town your baiting scum hard and while that may be smart and pro town it's certainly not honest, so I dont know where your getting this idea of yourself.

Btw wheres the voting thread.

On November 05 2013 00:39 gumshoe wrote:
Also hate to spree post... But WOS what do you mean he took your out... Vanesca has had four posts since your defence of him and none of them adress you or your case. They are all concerning his stance on Umasi, your post had nothing to do with that, he ramped up his offence because everyone started poking him on it. This is the exact response of a head strong player, I fail to see your argument... The bigger question is why are you still so dead set on him? Weve established hes new, probally town, what more does pressing him acomplish other than the stifling of discussion? Do you still consider him a viable lynch?

Furthermore I'm not a fan of this stuff right here.



It reads as if you've already thought of all the holes in your play, you argue thats because noobies make for your most difficult reads but you've transfered that hesitance into play that coincidentally matches that of a cautious scum player anticipating every blow that comes their way. This combined with your many wishy washy posts and your aproach to vanesco is more than enough reason for me to suspect you.

I redact my earlier scumread on him and (hopefully this doesn't bite me in the ass) he is now noob town.
The OMGUS on Umasi, (OMGUS in my experience tends to be used by town way more often than scum) the blatant disregard for what a towny is 'supposed to do' (why call someone out for no reason whatsoever---only serves to draw attention to himself which he has certainly garnered). I would think a newbie scum would at the very least attempt to backtrack due to inherent guilt when being shown that what he has done is considered scummy here.

On November 05 2013 03:15 ObviousOne wrote:
Echelon rubs me the wrong way too. Need to go back and read a past filter or two from him to voice check.

Haha. Rubs.

On November 05 2013 03:45 Onegu wrote:



First where have I called you scum? I asked you a question. Because we were 18 hours into the game and you were offering defense of a case on you with I cant belive it im so active and transparent. Then you come after me because I asked you the question. Followed by you asking me to respond to your second paragraph which I did, because you said filter legnth wasnt your only defense, but it was at the time. I never discussed the case on you only your reaction to it.

On November 05 2013 03:50 Sn0_Man wrote:
If I could substantiate them there'd be substantiations in thread yo.

Besides not so many reads just stuff. You weren't (aren't? unsure) playing how I'm used to but I can dismiss that if I need to. Was about the best I had. My shots at onegu are strictly based on teh player i have no idea his current alignment.

Massive walls of text full of dumb videos is either rayn territory or scum usually so I'm flaming gumshoe.

MEANWHILE I have no actual idea who is scum so I'm making sure people don't decide to lurker lynch me

On November 05 2013 03:56 Onegu wrote:



The only defense you offered at the time was you are being transparent (not a legit defense) and filter legnth, and then saying it wasnt your only defense. But as I just pointed out it was your only defense. Im not ignoreing anything. I didnt care for gumshoes case on you but your reaction afterward is shit.

On November 04 2013 23:45 WaveofShadow wrote:
Sweet, we're getting the non-lurk gumshoe this game.
Alrighty let's see:

I'm actually surprised you were the only one to mention this so far, even Vanesco himself didn't bother. It has nothing to do with the perceived loss of momentum. I could very easily have kept my vote on him all day if I still believed him to be scummy, but as you can see I wasn't 100% sure of him being scum earlier on; I even mentioned 'nooby or scum' in one of my first few posts about him. It wasn't a bait to get him going, but I wanted him to post more to see his reaction to the pressure; that is whether he reacted in a towny or scummy way (both nooby imo). I got my answer and unvoted accordingly. Call it wishy-washy if you will but I have provided reasoning for everything I have done all day and been completely transparent with my reads and questioning. As far as the 'bite me in the ass' comments, I can't talk about one of those, but I've been systematically wrong on newbie reads a lot, so it is something I am particularly paranoid about. I was wrong about Koshi in the first game I was exposed to him as scum, and I was also wrong about Chairman Ray in a recent game of his. It's not going to stop me from performing analysis but I worry a lot because I know my analysis can be wrong, hence me opening it up for others to comment on it and pick apart, like you are right now.

Other thoughts:
If my goal was to neuter Vanesco, why did he basically take the entire reasoning for the 'out' I gave him and use it? You'd think if he was a fiercely strong and independent player like you are surmising, that he'd try and fight that notion.

Also gumshoe, I hate to drop this card but do you honestly think at this point that the most active and engaging person in the thread is scum?

On November 05 2013 08:17 thrawn2112 wrote:


well if you plan on staying this course then I might have to fight you later but for now I'd rather WoS manage it

On November 05 2013 08:45 hzflank wrote:


Well Vanesco has posted several things since your last post regarding him. How did they affect your read on him? Even if you still think that he is scum, there must be some more detail in there now.

On November 05 2013 08:59 ObviousOne wrote:
Fuck that, he said I smell. Hang'em.

Heat wave is coming
Sno man gonna melt
Dunked

On November 05 2013 09:23 Cephiro wrote:


Do you truly consider yourself to have been that clearly "the most townie player in the game"? Your frustration on gumshoes case alone seemed very overboard. I also don't like how you don't even consider the option of you being lynched at all. Keep that up and I wouldn't mind making it happen.

Activity does not time make. It's interesting claims like your recent one which make me a bit vary.



I find it interesting that you claim that he hasn't re-evaluated his reads. Or does re-evaluation equal to changing ones opinion to you? I often re-evaluate some of my reads and still end up thinking the same, sometimes even more confirmed on my stance on a player. I don't mind Umasi getting pressured at all, but I'd like to see it happen for better reasoning than this. I do agree it'd be nice to hear how Vanescos new posts affected his reads, but as far as I know he hasn't been around to reply to the question yet.

Small things like this combined with how you are trying to enforce a "I'm the towniest player"-status on yourself this early on so hard is what ticks me off. Sure you post a lot, but that's by no means alignment indicative. Looking at your posts from a neutral point of view, I don't honestly see them as pro-town as you claim them to be.

On November 05 2013 09:30 Cephiro wrote:


For no reason? Hardly. Maybe you should read more closely instead of skimming through it without thought.
Especially as for how sure you are of yourself, your two last lines are very confusing. Is it not really more obvious than that?
I'm hardly pointing out some reasons why I'm suspicious of you. You reply with indifference and not caring, as well asking me the weirdest stuff ever instead of trying to comment on my points. Is it because you can't, or do you have a reason for not wanting to, other than "being obvious town and annoyed at people for accusing me?"

I'm simply saying that I have no problem in properly pressuring you if you keep confirming my suspicions at the rate you currently do. You can hardly say I've pressured you to any extent yet, but that's something easily changed. No stupid-ass big plays in this one simple matter.

On November 05 2013 09:30 thrawn2112 wrote:


not me

I'll lay out just about everything I'm thinking. Note that I'm gonna do this WITHOUT going back and rereading filters, so what you're getting is whatever I can remember right now.

Poking/prodding is all I've got right now. My only conclusive reads are town reads. In my notes I've got you, OO, Vanesco, hzflank, sn0, ET, Cephiro, and Syl crossed off as the people I'm not worried about, and that list is in order starting with who I'm least concerned with. Note that not everyone in that list is a town read, there is room for nulls or maybe even slightly scummy people who for various reasons I want to give some more time.

The people not on that list are: gumshoe, Umasi, onegu, and rayn.

gumshoe- came in with long posts that I honestly haven't read completely yet. the only thing I can remember about them is that I thought his targets were awful

Umasi- I haven't paid attention to anything he's said after the start of the game, I tuned out while reading his early post about Vanesco and haven't paid him any attention since so I don't really know what that guy's about. I remember reading someone talking about how his opinions on Vanesco haven't accounted for new evidence so that is worrying.

onegu- not a single thing comes to mind

-rayn - I want to fucking lynch this guy because I know he's capable of doing so much more. I'm not talking about quantity of posts.

That's about it. I don't really have "scumreads" yet but I'm confident about my townreads and I have a pretty good idea of who I want to talk to

On November 05 2013 09:43 raynpelikoneet wrote:
WoS what do you think of thrawn's "scumreads" or rather the reasoning behind them?

On November 05 2013 09:58 raynpelikoneet wrote:

I mean two of his reads are "i have not read their posts". And two of them are "they have not done anything". well that's as much reasoning i have given at this point for someone being scum (which is nothing). At least i do not have 4 targets, only one atm.

I will be playing the game, i will tell you who is scum. I don't know yet for sure about who is scum.

thrawn were you serious when you said you don't remember Sylencia playing scum?

On November 05 2013 10:10 thrawn2112 wrote:


Usually I start games off by making myself the center of attention but I didn't do that here because 1) there aren't enough people who are familiar with my town play who could bail me out if things go wrong and 2) I think people are mostly annoyed when I do that. Becoming the center of attention usually gives me something to work with, it's very easy to find scum when half the thread is accusing you. Without that tool I'm admittedly a little lost, or maybe bored is the better word. I wanted to roll mafia this game because I roll town something close to 95% (no joke) of the time, so after getting town yet again I became even less interested... add to that how I hardly know anyone on the player list and you should be able to understand my current attitude. I agree with you about Cephero. His entrance was a little awkward but he gave me a straight up answer so I'm cool with him for now.



lol do you really? I'm not convinced you care at all. Are you wanting to make it an issue or are you only here to make passive accusations?

On November 05 2013 10:26 ObviousOne wrote:

We must use this power wisely.

Can we agree that gumshoe is a person of interest? Huh. I wonder if he has enough recent history to get a meta baseline.

On November 05 2013 10:34 thrawn2112 wrote:
I promise to talk about onegu or whoever if you'll talk about rayn?

Do you think that town rayn is likely to display the apathy he's showing if he truly thought he'd caught me lying? He hasn't done a single thing this game that's made me think he's town and the way he's passively gone after me all game does not match up to what I remember him doing the last time a town rayn thought I was mafia. Why will you not vote him D1? If you think he's going to be lazy this game why do you want to keep him around?

WoS my town circle posts were pretty sarcastic although they accurately describe my reads.

On November 05 2013 10:44 ObviousOne wrote:

Preferable to the out-of-cigarettes Rayn.

On November 05 2013 10:56 raynpelikoneet wrote:

No i really mean it - read my last page of filter from ## game if you are curious.

On November 05 2013 11:32 Cephiro wrote:


Short ver for all the (censored) who can't read one long post.

You should vote for WoS today, because he constantly tells how he will deliver and how he has provided a lot of content, yet hasn't really done so. He posts a lot, but he doesn't really pressure anyone. His excuse for not providing proper analysis is because he's afraid he might be wrong and it may get ripped apart.

Read why this and many other reasons make him scum in my case. Do it. It won't take you that long, and it'll make you a better mafia player just by reading it.

@WoS: If you truly are going to completely ignore all of that (I am extremely disappointed you are not even trying to defend yourself against the main points which are easily found.), then I promise I'll do everything in my power to get you killed.

Even if you are scum, be kind enough to provide this content and tell me for example 2 persons that you think are scum, and give me a proper analysis and thought process as for why you ended up thinking they are scum and what makes them scum.

On November 05 2013 11:40 Vanesco wrote:
So I will address my opinion's of Cephiro RIGHT before his massive post and then address the huge post. He comes into the game giving a vote and no real reasonings. He also hides many of his reads by saying he has secondary reasons for voting WoS and that he doesn't feel that his SEVERAL reads are worth sharing. I understand not wanting to share all of them but effectively the only read that seems obvious is that you are suspicious of WoS (before the massive post). It seems like the connection that me and WoS is all one-sided from WoS's filter POV. It seems like the only player you have focused on ever since entering the game has been WoS, as if you are tunnel visioning. And the connection between us is also only done from WoS's point of view. Is it also possible that he is scum and I am town and he is trying to find reasons for others to jump on me for an easy day 1 lynch? Or is it maybe possible we are both town and he had suspicions on me and is questioning my play?

I also think that a day 1 lynch on WoS is not a good idea since most people have either expressed they think he is town, or have not given a read on him (I'm assuming for now those mean null). I thought before that WoS was a little scummy but since then he become slightly town for me. His frustration with Cephiro's arguments seem to be something that a fed up town would do. I think that most people in the thread will agree with me that there are targets that seem more suspicious than WoS. Maybe Cephiro is trying to deflect off of somebody that was being targetted? He seems very much to want to keep the discussion on mainly WoS and only WoS.

On November 05 2013 04:12 Onegu wrote:
Im out for now getting bored with this back and forth as its going nowwhere and just shitting up the thread. Lynch me if you like. Im going to look at other people as I am basicly done with WoS now. His posts are way to over the top now.

On November 05 2013 12:02 Cephiro wrote:


I see your point. And I do not expect my read to be right based on one example only. It was an example only to get my point across to you. It's more about the amount of things that would be incredibly convinient for scum that happen, and the reactions of WoS that are in strong contrast with his own opinions of how a townie should play the game.

Single thought processes of his could very well come from a townie yes, but looking at the whole history of his, I find it much more likely to be done from a scum perspective, for one reason alone the sheer amount of inconsistencies and his refusal to correct or address many of them.



Alright, I very well see your point. I certainly don't expect townies to play perfectly. I personally just consider it more likely for someone that is constant pressure about being caught in a lie to be inconsistent in their story (especially the longer the story becomes), rather than for a townie that is simply telling the story as his opinions move forward. (Basically for a honest townie, the only inconsistencies come from if he doesn't care about what he said earlier, or forgot and does a sudden change of mind without reasoning, which is rare in my opinion.)

Thank you for providing the reasoning behind your point though. I'm not saying I'm right or you're wrong, but we'll have agree to disagree on this one it seems.

At several points in the case (in my opinion), I provided good thoughts as for why the inconsistencies are especially scum-motivated. That can't be said for every point, as there are so many things to be considered ambigiously. But I tried my best to show why certain things are in my opinion clearly done from a mafia perspective.

On November 05 2013 12:32 ObviousOne wrote:

You best be voting for Sn0 if you bailin'

On November 05 2013 12:37 Umasi wrote:
I disagree with the aggression on WoS, how he's playing is pretty much in keeping with a town WoS. That said, don't be so angry wave, you're kind of overreacting.
Regardless, would it piss everyone off to say I still think vanesco is the best lynch?
He's still the best lynch.

On November 05 2013 12:38 Cephiro wrote:


Alright, let's start with this one.



Why would you give him a free out if you lean town on him, and THEN basically invite everyone to jump on it? It makes absolutely no sense from a town perspective. I can still understand giving a free out to someone you think is town to try and help them, but then pointing them out for taking it? I can't see this from a town perspective no matter how I look at it.

If I assume you are town doing this -> You're giving a free bone for scum to take up on. If you think Vanesco was town, there is absolutely no reason for you to do that, as if anything it makes him look worse.

Also the fact that you're asking someone else to do the job for you.

On November 05 2013 12:42 ObviousOne wrote:

Umasi is on the radar, repeat, he is ON THE RADAR.

Super outspoken against discussing the coven powers and thinks Vanesco is the scummiest guy in the thread. And that's pretty much it. And that's pretty underwhelming. But it's not necessarily scummy to have an out-there scum read. Would rather like to know another two scum reads from him as well because I could put his filter through a sieve and only the word Vanesco would filter out. So I'll wait 'til we get that.

On November 05 2013 12:46 Cephiro wrote:


I can see your reasoning for the second point. I did give reasons why I think the defense is scum-motivated however. It does not mean that is necessarily the case, but I did provide my thoughts as for why I believe that to be the case.

Your first point I don't completely agree with. Townies aren't pressured to look town in the same way, they know themselves to be town. Of course they may be worried to be misinterpreted, but they can be confident that their reads are coming from a confirmed town perspective, which scum cannot. I do provide many examples why WoS's actions are more likely to be scum-motivated rather than town motivated. I also do not see how I'm arguing against my own point? I pointed out that WoS is intentionally looking himself look bad in the early post. I then tell why I don't see that a townie should be doing that under any circumstances. Thus logically -> Scum.

Repeat: Why would you ever want to look scummy intentionally, as town? He did exactly that, which is why I believe it was done by scum.

Third part: It is not only about having definitive scumreads. I can understand people not being extremely certain in their reads at this point in the game. What I am more concerned is that he constantly tells how he's providing content, and ASKING OTHERS TO DO STUFF, when he's barely giving any pressure to anyone himself.

I thank you for your feedback though, your second point is most valid. I still consider my case extremely well-considered, and those who haven't should read it.

On November 05 2013 12:54 raynpelikoneet wrote:
In the last game i made a similar case on WoS that Cephiro is doing now. I even think my case was stronger. He was town.
Being undecisive at this point of the game or asking other people's opinions is not scummy. That's pretty much everything i have to say. Of course it would be cool if everyone played perfectly and pressured people and shut down cases/arguments that are obviously bad but that's unfortunately what people are capable of doing.

##Vote: gumshoe
just because i do not like anything he has said this game.

On November 05 2013 12:54 raynpelikoneet wrote:
In the last game i made a similar case on WoS that Cephiro is doing now. I even think my case was stronger. He was town.
Being undecisive at this point of the game or asking other people's opinions is not scummy. That's pretty much everything i have to say. Of course it would be cool if everyone played perfectly and pressured people and shut down cases/arguments that are obviously bad but that's unfortunately what people are capable of doing.

##Vote: gumshoe
just because i do not like anything he has said this game.

On November 05 2013 13:00 Cephiro wrote:


Alright. I see the point of your first paragraph. What I meant as a free bone for scum to pick is this: If you are town, and believe Van is town as well, you pointed out a flaw in Van's play (which assumingly you didn't want to pick up on yourself, since you wanted to protect him), if so, why point it out at all? And if you really wanted to see what others thought about that without blaming him yourself, did you not consider the possibility that it is essentially a free flaw pointed out that scum can use to push a mislynch on Van? That is what I meant with the point.



At this point in the game, you hadn't really done any pressuring towards players you may have been suspicious of. You tell how the situation at the time is very scum-favoured, but you don't do anything about it. This is not the only time you have pointed out things that should be acted upon but not done anything yourself. (I will admit your play looks a little better now later on, but at the time of this post that was certainly not the case, nor rightly after.)

Also while re-reading my case, I found one point which looks much better for you than I presented, I'm fairly sure you meant otherwise and misread it myself. (If anyone wonders, it's this one: )



I had originally understood this wrong as not providing analysis (since he didn't), and telling why, when in fact he probably meant he is worried about his analysis being wrong, and that's why he wants others opinions on them. This is now a much more positive sentence in my eyes, even though I still do not like why he is worried about being wrong so much.



This is where your main point of defending yourself is the amount of filter you have. You don't really provide much reasoning for other defense even after this even though you claim to. You also claim that "your filter and content was never the main defense", when this points out otherwise.

Please address these two points in a calm and fair manner. At the moment you are still the person I would like to be lynched the most. Address these points, and I'll leave you some time to share more of your own scumreads, and reasons for why they are scum, as I feel that will tell me more than constantly pointing out the flaws in your play over and over again.

On November 05 2013 13:04 hzflank wrote:


Ya think?

You have said multiple times that you think that I may be scum and you need to look into it. It might be time to stop saying it and actually look into me. It should'nt take long, I have not even posted much. I'll even give you a clue, look at the question that Thrawn asked me in regards to my case on Sn0.

On November 05 2013 13:09 gumshoe wrote:


Yeah, this makes too much sense, I apologize for wasting both our time. No point drumming up a larger waste of time, I see little reason to keep pursuing you as a viable lynch. I still rather lych onegu because if sno is scum his play is just meh, but I can see Onegus style working from a scum perspective. Basicaly I'm going under the basis that scum is competent, Onegus style has a chance to make everyone sorta glaze over him due to his pain, it's also a good excuse for his abscence. There would be no excuse for scum snos style.

On November 05 2013 13:17 thrawn2112 wrote:


haha

that syl vote for ET is a doozy aint it

On November 05 2013 13:28 Umasi wrote:

it's an association read :|
Just from the opening post, again.

Here, I'll defer to everyone I guess.
##unvote: vanesco
thoughts on him still haven't changed, but it's pretty clear he won't be lynched today, and I might just be dead wrong.
Still think sylencias town though.

On November 05 2013 12:56 Sylencia wrote:


Have you actually read the thread? I'm sure you would've already dismissed your idea already because we already discussed revealing witchcraft votes and it was either too risky or there were problems in regards to the overlap of blues because we're not likely to change our votes that much between the days, so it's a simple blue shot no matter when we really reveal... I don't really buy the fact that there's an algorithm which would work in our favour 'depending on certain actions in the games' because there are so many things which can happen.

Following on from that, why would it ever be a smart move to try gather WC votes so obviously when it just sets you up to be a vig target?

The vote on WoS in your very first post sets you up here for a long long tunnel which I'm still currently getting through (though I've taken a skip over the wall of text for now) - if anything I feel like you decided to target WoS after seeing recent posts and then did the long filter dive process to back it up at a later point. This is obviously baseless conjecture but I can see that happening from a scum player.



How is actively choosing not to give reasoning behind your votes ever townie here? Especially when you make a 'serious' vote on the first post which means that literally no one knows that your train of thought has been before you voted? Choosing to present thoughts only when asked is basically allowing yourself to reveal as little about what you think as possible, which really only has scum motivation behind it since it reduces the likelihood of inconsistencies popping up in the future, no?

Skimming over your case, half the points honestly seem like a stretch and rayn's covered pretty much my thoughts on that, I'll have to get back to your reply soon but honestly it's taken me an hour to hit this point because everyone seems to want to write essays these days :{

Conclusion: I don't really buy Ceph's case, and his entrance to me looks like a forced tunnel into WoS.

That said, I still need to look at a few other filters before getting deeper reads but Ceph's on my radar at the moment.

On November 05 2013 14:27 Umasi wrote:

lack of overall effect on the thread, although (as wave mentioned) it feels like enough of us are defaulting towards that lynch it's dangerous.
('that lynch' being a lynch on sn0 or ET.)

On November 05 2013 14:35 raynpelikoneet wrote:
I do not know how you can say you your taking Sn0 off the table does make things "harder" for scum. I have no idea what that means or how you can think like that. First of all you can't even know if Sn0 is town or not, it's impossible for you at this point of the game unless you are scum. Second, you can't assume you saying something makes it teh absolute truth and that people will follow you, unless your reasoning is really good, which it's not. Third, i don't know why you even want to take Sn0 "off the table" in the first place?

On November 05 2013 14:59 Onegu wrote:



I just said I havent caught up only skimmed as I have a doctors appointment (in waiting room now). You calling me out again for this is you just ignoreing what I am saying and comeing after me for precieved ignoreing of thread. Ill get to it in a few hours as I have to have a IV treatment I wont be around for now.

On November 05 2013 16:02 EchelonTee wrote:
It takes 7 votes to lynch, and a no-lynch is very, very bad for town (it is one of town's few KP methods), so everybody in the thread had better comment on my case on Thrawn or have a good reason not to.

On November 05 2013 16:26 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Hey WoS, why is Onegu a better lynch than gumshoe?

On November 05 2013 15:40 EchelonTee wrote:

I think that Thrawn is scum.


He never pursued the people not on his list. I find claiming that you will do something, then not doing it scummy; it looks like you are pursuing leads when you are not actually.

I thought these questions were strange because they don't serve any purpose. If his purpose was to get me to talk (as when I questioned Syl), he didn't respond to me at all, which makes me wonder why he asked me these. It feels to me like fake activity.


Thrawn votes rayn but never really explains why. Does not quote rayn or outline his reasoning. Yet he wants to "fucking lynch him". This does not feel like a real scum read to me.


I don't like posts like this that don't say anything. It doesn't feel like thrawn has an actual read on Syl and is just commenting on the current topic for some activity.

A brief filter of analysis of Thrawn's previous two games, Desert Mini and British Empire Mini corroborate my views. Posts like these outline clear reasons why Thrawn views there's players as scum and show an intent to scumhunt. In this game, he has done a lot of lists and lightly push rayn for a lack of activity. I think there is a stark contrast.

##Vote: Thrawn2112

On November 05 2013 10:10 thrawn2112 wrote:


Usually I start games off by making myself the center of attention but I didn't do that here because 1) there aren't enough people who are familiar with my town play who could bail me out if things go wrong and 2) I think people are mostly annoyed when I do that. Becoming the center of attention usually gives me something to work with, it's very easy to find scum when half the thread is accusing you. Without that tool I'm admittedly a little lost, or maybe bored is the better word. I wanted to roll mafia this game because I roll town something close to 95% (no joke) of the time, so after getting town yet again I became even less interested... add to that how I hardly know anyone on the player list and you should be able to understand my current attitude. I agree with you about Cephero. His entrance was a little awkward but he gave me a straight up answer so I'm cool with him for now.



lol do you really? I'm not convinced you care at all. Are you wanting to make it an issue or are you only here to make passive accusations?

On November 05 2013 17:14 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Generally yes, it stands. Although now it doesn't because he brought it up. :E
I have no idea what to think about it either.

Could you comment on what i said about gumshoe?

On November 06 2013 02:36 Sn0_Man wrote:
Last game I gave him a townread for something and he said stuff like "don't give me a townread for that" and shit. Maybe not full martyr but the mindset is the same. Its "Would scum throw away "towncred" like this? Would scum call attention to themselves like this? Of course not". Its how Onegu plays.

I'll admit that I often get the same vibes from his townplay and in general I have real difficulty reading Onegu, but I'd argue that that makes him a serious liability to have moving into the late game. And he hasn't done anything to make me think he's town.

I mean, if he IS town, then he wants to die so we should oblige him and solve that questionmark. If he is scum, then we lynch scum. It feels like the right move right now.

Besides what townie ever self votes except in frustration? This wasn't frustration it was "look at me I'm so cooperative and want town to win" yeah right.

On November 06 2013 02:45 thrawn2112 wrote:


dude it happens like every game

On November 06 2013 03:09 EchelonTee wrote:

Fuck the meta analysis. Fine my case was shit, I didn't know that thrawn was smurfing that game. I already indicated I would back away from my case if I had made a mistake so I think it's completely messed up that you are arguing I am twisting information when I am trying to be as reasonable as possible.

I can't believe that you are trying to push a lynch on me at this stage in the game when there is almost no chance I will be lynched. You are contributing to a no-lynch and had better get off of me right now.

My main point about thrawn has always been that he didn't do anything, which he himself acknowledges. I guess that's fine in Mafia these days. Vote people who are trying to do things and ignore people who do nothing.

I am paying attention and am not making up things on the fly. I'm extremely, extremely insulted that you claim so. Compare my 1:1 with other players to the game and seriously, I'm the one who isn't paying attention to thread? I'm the most scummy to you? I don't even know what to say. I disagree that gumshoe's interactions/contributions are fake, and therefore I'm scum. Seriously.

##Unvote

On November 06 2013 03:16 EchelonTee wrote:
holy fuck stop calling me town don't fucking vote me as blue holy shit

On November 06 2013 03:16 thrawn2112 wrote:
##Vote:hzflank

^^ this is placeholder while I decide

On November 05 2013 14:56 hzflank wrote:


Doesn't matter now. I was trying to fish in multiple ponds with a single rod, and I messed it up.

On November 06 2013 05:11 EchelonTee wrote:
i thought waveofshadow and hzflank were supposed to be respected / strong (as stated by players in this game) where the hell are they

On November 06 2013 06:32 hzflank wrote:


Oh don't worry, people's votes on me make no sense, therefore I am relying on them not sticking.

For example, WoS tends to think that people are town when they are reading the game in a similar fashion to him, right? Remember when I pushed you and WoS said "I was going to do that" or when I read Syl and WoS said they he read it the same way I did? WoS does not think I am scum, WoS wants me to be scum because I offended him and/or he saw my ego in full effect when he coached me. His vote can still change.

As for Thrawn and ET, well they are defaulting to me because they have no one better to vote for and they did not like my case on Sn0. The thing is, if you read me carefully you will noticed that my case on Sn0 was never meant to be pushed. In that portion of the game I actually thought that Umasi and ET were scum. The case on Sn0 was an attempt to engage him which failed. The case was also an attempt to make people view him in a more negative light so that I could see what people said about him when he appeared to be a somewhat easy lynch.

People don't really think that I am scum yet still want to lynch me D1. Reminds me of the White flag game that just ended

On November 06 2013 06:56 raynpelikoneet wrote:

while this is true, it's not alignment indicative because of HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHH! WoS knows what i am talking about.

On November 06 2013 10:24 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Really WoS, really? You are "not sure" what i am talking about?

On November 06 2013 10:35 raynpelikoneet wrote:
No WoS, the thing here what gumshoe said does not refer to you, because he was using that as a defence.
I did the exact same thing in ##, i got back when i could have stayed afk and not get called scum for it. I was scum. There was nothing alignment indicative in that comment because whatever way you look at it it's WIFOM.

On November 06 2013 10:38 raynpelikoneet wrote:

And this is not true because of the following:

(1) hzflank was here defending himself.
(2) i just got back, ET lynch was not going to happen for some retarded reason and i really clearly had implied gumshoe was my #2 target for lynch.

If we assume gumshoe is scum, it is not really hard to make an educated guess about who is going to be the next lynch target if hzflank lynch does not go through. It is going to be either gumshoe or Onegu. Do you disagree?

On November 06 2013 10:45 raynpelikoneet wrote:

WoS i am talking about D1 in ## where i am referring to myself.

I don't care how it would look on me. And that's not the argument here. The argument is there is nothing alignment indicative in his comment and i know it because i just did the same thing as scum, therefore the comment can be come from scum. If it could not come from scum i would have flipped town in ## game. If there is something that makes you think mafia!gumshoe could absolutely not say that and it had to be town!gumshoe, then tell me why so we can discuss it.

On November 06 2013 10:59 raynpelikoneet wrote:

That's why i said i hated this D1. I am not claiming i am always right. When i made the original case on gumshoe people did not tell where i was wrong (and i still stand behind my case besides gumshoe's alignment - obviously). PEople just ignored the case or said "no he has contributed here and here" which is not tellingwhere i am wrong because i did very clearly say what i thought gumshoe said in his posts. If i was worng and people thought i was wrong why the fuck would noone go into those posts and tell me:

"Look, here. gumshoe says this and that. This means this and that, and it clearly contributes to the game because XYZ."

That's how you are supposed to do it. Look at how i answered Cephiro's case on you and ET's case on thrawn. I think the cases were shit. I went through them and told people what i disagreed with. There is no reason why there should be bad/wrong cases in thread at any point of the game because having them distracts the town from scumhunting. That's why people should point out why the cases are bad and not just say "lol bad case" or stay silent.

I hope you get what i mean. If i make a case and noone tells me why it is bad then i think i am right.

On November 05 2013 13:01 raynpelikoneet wrote:

tbh no, i do not remember his play from Basterd. I remember he claimed on N1 but i don't even remember why.
After that he has been modkilled for inactivity or soht because i accidently outed him as blue (in a game i somehow thought everyone was blue) while he did pretty much nothing. 50% of my case on him is that i want him to actually say something uselful and 50% is that what he has said is either faked for no reason or useless contributions or something that makes no sense to me.

On November 05 2013 17:23 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Bleh.. I can't really say. :E
I think it's not alignment indicative.

On November 06 2013 11:20 raynpelikoneet wrote:

I don't know if you have been reading the thread or not but i backed up my gumshoe case with an argument about the differences in his posting in this game and in Basterd. Do i really need to go to my own fucking filter because everyone seems to have missed that post?

On November 05 2013 17:31 raynpelikoneet wrote:
gumshoe's contributions in Basterd have a clear point, are transparent and every time they reach to a hard conclusion. None of those things happen in this game and half of his filter anyways is useless because it's about fake case that either serves no purpose if he is town or he just fucked up and is making stuff up if he is scum.

Never mind, even if you are scum for whatever reason you seem invested in this game. Dont waste time addressing an argument thats probably not valid (lol you already did nice XD) Besides if your scum you'll trip yourself up eventually if you keep posting like this / : Now,even though I actually did find those things you did fishy... I wasn't entirely honest regarding the intent of that case...

On November 05 2013 11:10 gumshoe wrote:
I made a post because the thread was stagnating, the post I made was of course mediocre seeing as it was made at the start of the game but I don't wanna hear that from you Ryan : P, the post was big and aggressive because it was meant to draw everyone out, and it's done just that. Even if Wos is scum(an increasingly slim possibility) I don't wanna lynch an extremely active player day 1. I'm still willing to kill Unegu, but why is it that no one finds oo's play weird? What is it that everyone finds townie about him? I'll be here to answer questions for a bit, but I don't have a phone so don't expect any walls of text T-T Also cephiro's opening post was just so balls to the walls... Reeked of confidence... Not sure what o make of that.

On November 06 2013 11:25 raynpelikoneet wrote:
WHAT THE FUCK IS THAT COMMENT YOU QUOTED?
THAT IS ABOUT ONEGU, NOT GUMSHOE?
WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU DOING WAVEOFSHADOW???

On November 05 2013 17:14 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Generally yes, it stands. Although now it doesn't because he brought it up. :E
I have no idea what to think about it either.

Could you comment on what i said about gumshoe?

On November 05 2013 17:17 WaveofShadow wrote:

I see your point but the effort he put in while he WAS here (sporadically) gives me a great deal of pause. Why would he do that as scum? What is the motivation?

On November 06 2013 12:03 thrawn2112 wrote:
rayn and WoS I don't any idea what either of you have been talking about

On November 06 2013 11:43 raynpelikoneet wrote:
WoS why would i say "i can't talk about it" about gumshoe?

On November 06 2013 12:12 thrawn2112 wrote:


This is really the only part of the argument that I followed and I agree with it, especially with rayn starting off D1 deliberately being useless.

On November 06 2013 12:27 thrawn2112 wrote:
I am NOT about to try and solve a mystery over who said who, who misinterpreted who, and who's lying when one of the people involved is rayn. All three of those things are pretty much exactly what rayn and I argued about endlessly in desert and I do not care enough about forum mafia to subject myself to that again.

The only reason I gave rayn a pass initially is because he started playing the game, but those are pretty low standards to hold him to. ET will hate me for this but I don't see how rayn could still see ET as scum at this stage in the game. That tunnel is looking more forced as it's continued over into N1. (btw rayn, nobody needs to respond to your case on ET because you should be able to figure it out for yourself) Also go look at the argument I had with rayn about Syl, can you figure out exactly wtf his motives were during that conversation? He appeared to have absolutely no interest in what hzflank said about Syl, instead choosing to make the issue entirely about how I've waited until now to bring up a point made a day ago? Is that even a legitimate concern? The argument kinda fizzled out with, from what I could tell, rayn not having reached any conclusions about my alignment. So I can't figure out what his issue was other than he wanted to discredit me.

Yes, I think I will be joining you on the rayn-train tomorrow.

On November 06 2013 06:44 raynpelikoneet wrote:

I don't think Sylencia is scum, hz could be anything.
What exactly has ET done this game other than bad case on you and been sloppy?
He just got mad onme @ Hogwarts when i called him out of saying he knew scum had a fuckton of roles on D1. Dunno if i was right or not but he was scum so i don't find his reaction to bbe a town tell for sure. He didn't even answer anything about the case. If you believe he actually tried to do even some meta analysis on you lol..

On November 06 2013 12:47 thrawn2112 wrote:
nah i'm cool on hzflank for now.. imo gumshoe was dead as soon as he made that last minute vote.

SO WoS what do you think about sylencia and obviousone? I think obviousone started out ok but he's not kept it up, and his latest contribution wasn't really a contribution, he just threw some names out (ceph/et) for other people to pick up on. I asked him to give his opinion on what happened during the lynch and that's the best he can come up with?

Apart from that group (syl/OO/rayn) there's nobody I can see being mafia, save maybe Onegu and I don't feel like looking into him will be all that useful until after he returns from afk-land.

Eh, there is also Umasi but I felt OK about his play in the hours leading up to the lynch.

On November 06 2013 06:55 gumshoe wrote:
You all do realize I could have sat back and watched the no lynch go through / : besides I always ninja vote, get killed for it, and have never once flipped scum. Meh

On November 06 2013 19:04 raynpelikoneet wrote:

So in your opinion WoS is town because he did not hammer your lynch through because you selfvoted, which you thought was the best option for town. Instead WoS did the opposite, which based on your posts is what scum would want to do (as you say this: "I would rather people see my flip and who voted me then a no lynch that gives scum a free shot and town zero info"). This is exactly what WoS did by your definition. So could you explain the logic behind giving townie points to him for that action?

On November 07 2013 00:00 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Why don't you shut up already if you have no idea what i am doing.
I am not trying to make anyone have a "false" read on you or what the fuck are you trying to say here.
I am trying to have a better read on Onegu, because what he says makes no sense to me. Does it make sense to you?

On November 07 2013 03:46 thrawn2112 wrote:
What Onegu is saying about WoS doesn't make sense to me either. It makes sense in that I can follow the train of thought but it doesnt make sense in that it's a weird and weak justification that Onegu's using to change his read on WoS. And this line:


And Onegu doesn't think this is suspicious? His read on WoS seems fake.

On November 07 2013 03:59 thrawn2112 wrote:


OK my guess is that you see this as scum rayn trying to coerce town onegu into thinking that WoS is mafia? To me it looks more like rayn is trying to figure out wtf onegu has a town read on you for such such strange reasons. Onegu said that after you (WoS) unvoted him, you didn't really scumhunt. But his opinion of you has gone from scummy to townie after the unvote? How does that makes sense? If town Onegu TRULY had a scumread on WoS, I don't think anything that WoS has done after and including the unvote would have made Onegu change his mind.

On November 07 2013 04:16 thrawn2112 wrote:
WoS if you haven't read the discussion between myself an OO you are definitely missing out

On November 07 2013 04:42 Sn0_Man wrote:
Im around but I'm (as you can see) not posting much atm. This game is disheartening considering I'm somehow "scummy" and pointing out things that others do when I consider them scummy somehow is an excuse for OO to be an insulting asshole.

I dont know what the hell we are gonna do about cephiro, but he's playing much more town-aligned than last game (may have to do with him having a weird ass role last game). Lynching him doesn't seem smart atm.

ET seems pretty town not sure why people wish to lynch him.

Rayn is playing very different but afaik its different from anything he's done before as scum or town and I'm OK with his train of thought. Not his conclusions but he feels reasonably town too.

Umasi/Vanesco/HzFlank are all pretty null, i have no kinda "ins" to read these guys so far. Onegu kinda fits this category too, but I'd rather lynch him than the others I think.

Syl I don't like. Mostly because him and OO have hard-buddied. Not that I'd expect them to do that as scum, but they haven't even been a little bit suspicious of each other despite said buddying. Generally somebody attempting to buddy me makes me very suspicious (at least when I feel like I'm obvtown). Syl's scumgames often include real effort at the start with long, very "effort-y" posts put in at fairly regular intervals so I'm gonna keep my eye on him. Then again i've Mislynched Syl for dumb shit too. He's on the scum side of null, along with OO.

WoS is hard for me this game. Half the time he sounds like he's thinking the game and obvtown. Then the other half his posts just rub me the wrong way. I've played a fair few games with (always rolls town) WoS and something feels off, dunno. Don't think we lynch him soon either but I can't just give him the townread I've given others (ET/Thrawn etc).

Thats like everybody relevant I think.

I'm willing to discuss stuff with ppl but I'm currently 100% unwilling to interact with OO due to how he's played so far. My scumread on him hinges on his mindset towards the game: All he cares about is people's perception of him and that they see him as conftown. He doesn't actually care to play well, just to appear good. My unwillingness to interact with him is completely separate from that, though it probably clouds my vision somewhat.

On November 07 2013 05:01 thrawn2112 wrote:
oh we're posting our reads way before the deadline? me next!

WoS is town and I don't feel the need to explain why.

hzflank is town and deserves a medal for displaying great courage and valor while under fire.

Vanesco is a townie dude, he really seems to care about his arguments and making people answer his questions.

Ceph... seems town. I can't sense any dishonesty coming from that guy. However, out of all my reads this is the one I'm the most apprehensive about.

Sn0 imo is pretty obviously town but I can understand why people think he's not. I don't think he'd appear as comfortable posting as he does if this were his first real scum game.

ET.. I would have called him town without hesitation at the end of D1 for being one of the few who were around at deadline and actually discussed things instead of dropping off their vote at the last minute. However I'm kinda pissed that he's gone silent since the lynch. He is mostly town in my mind but he needs to return in full force asap

rayn.. jesus idk... I think I change my mind about him more often than I do about any other player. WoS you will hate this, but ironically you are the one who makes me go from ":scum" to "who knows" on rayn for now, because of that comment you made about how I should already know that town rayn is kinda crazy. I'm gonna take a pass on this one and not even give you guys a read because it'd probably be a bs read and very likely to change very soon.

umasi, I must have a mental block on this guy because I can never remember anything he posts. I have him as town in my notes but I can't remember the feeling I got that made me write that, so I'm gonna call him null


OO is scum dandelion from BEMMII. I am going to park my vote on this guy for D2 until he decides to actually explain his reads instead of writing "fake" cases.

Syl scum? Maybe. Actually, probably. Mainly by process of elimination, but also because of the inordinate amount of sad faces he posts. I shoulda lynched him instead of gumshoe after changing my mind about hzflank.

Soooooo I only have 2 people picked for scum, which means that my reads are probably horribly fucked up.

OH FUCK I skipped Onegu, he must be 3rd scum. Case closed. (Actually I AM leaning scum on him right now for reasons I gave a few posts ago)

On November 07 2013 05:07 Sn0_Man wrote:
Did u read hogwarts WoS?

On November 07 2013 05:12 thrawn2112 wrote:
I know what you're saying. But one of the main reasons I was initially suspicious of rayn was because of what I perceived to be a crazy and insane fixation on ET. Once you reminded me that he can do that as town, which he has done to me, I could no longer think he's scum because of that tunnel. There have been times where I was sure of him being scum and times where I was sure of the opposite, which is why for now I am refusing to give my read on rayn until I come to a decision I'm more confident about.

On November 07 2013 05:17 thrawn2112 wrote:


Then go read a few pages starting from here. Everything he does leads up to a bigass case which ended up being "fake." Throughout the ordeal he was being purposefully antagonistic. Whenever someone tries to argue with OO in this game he responds by puffing up his chest and acting like he's above it all. How is that not exactly like scum dandel? he may have more "content" but I can't give him credit for that because it all ended up being for nothing anyways.

On November 07 2013 11:07 thrawn2112 wrote:
oh fuck WoS you are probably gonna be pretty pissed

On November 07 2013 11:16 thrawn2112 wrote:


I'm gonna have to bail on that rayn-train lol

On November 07 2013 13:18 Onegu wrote:



I think they are both scum.... I just pointed that out.... I am ok with either lynch.

On November 07 2013 13:24 thrawn2112 wrote:


yeah I know. but forget about ET and rayn for now because this vote onegu just made is crazy. I looked through his filter and he never talks to or about rayn as if he thinks he's mafia. Onegu never implies that he thinks rayn is scum until just now, and the only reasoning was because maybe scum rayn was trying to save scum hzflank? This is after Onegu start throwing out quotes to show that hzflank is scum... why wouldn't he just vote for hz? The answer... as much as you hate to admit it, imo is because rayn is town and onegu thinks that's an easier mislynch.

On November 07 2013 13:28 thrawn2112 wrote:


Do you remember that quote rayn provided?

On November 07 2013 14:03 thrawn2112 wrote:


yeah, I think what he's doing is backtracking, but if you believe him then he's not backtracking. he claimed to have been developing suspicions about rayn earlier, he just didn't point them out. we have to accept that on faith because there is nothing in his filter to prove to us on way or the other if he ever thought rayn was mafia

so the two choices are:

1) believe that he did think rayn was scum before now, except he didn't say anything about it and chose to talk about other stuff instead
2) he's scum and playing terribly

On November 07 2013 14:05 Onegu wrote:



Wait where did I say I thought rayn was scum earlier? The first time was when I saw his BS reason for makeing me look bad, hell I voted dor him to be blue before this.

On November 08 2013 12:57 Onegu wrote:



Nope, there is like nobody in this game everyone agrees is town

On November 08 2013 03:10 Sn0_Man wrote:
Errybody's afk or something.

It is possible that OO died from silver bullet and that the actual NK was either roleblocked (as it is personally delivered not factional) or Doctored. Either way, I'm interested to know if people voted for OO to be witchcrafted (Since he is dead there is no drawback to people admitting they voted him).

I, personally, did not vote him (for obvious reasons) but I'm aware he had townreads from some/many.

Part of the reason I bring this up is that I would have expected scum to spend AT LEAST 1 silver bullet last night. The rewards for killing the blues BEFORE their actions occur seem too high to pass up considering the limited amount of people I'd expect to get votes. If OO was indeed killed by silver bullet, some blue role would like VERY much to know that as they know their save hit town for example (Or their RB hit scum).

On November 08 2013 03:40 Sn0_Man wrote:
I like the points against onegu, Syl's vote was WTF, my current biggest concern is that you are still alive. While I agree with (almost) all the things you say you being alive is giving me misgivings because I would have expected you to die.

Which is why I'm trying to figure out what happened last night since if OO was a blue shot then I can believe that you were targetted but saved for example. That would give me more confidence in your reads. Vets who push a mislynch D1 then go "WHOAH COMPLETE 180 ON MY READS GUYS" and are still alive D2 smell funny to me. I agree with your points but hnnnnng smells funny. So I'm looking for certainty there.

There are 2 1-shot witch hunters read the OP lol.

On November 08 2013 13:03 Vanesco wrote:
This town is seriously ignoring so many things its putting town at a setback in my opinion. Like seriously, its now Day 2 and we are in a worse position than at the start of the game. Now instead of 10 townies we are down to 8 while scum are still at 3. What has town learnt? Not much apart from having more time to make reads on player interaction. Why is nobody interested in following up on how gumshoe was killed or why OO was a target?

So far (unless I accidentally missed it in the thread), Umasi, EchelonTee (now kinda excused since replaced), Sn0_Man, and Cephiro have not given any type of explanation as to why they decided to change their vote onto gumshoe in the last few minutes, which I am still waiting for. If those 3 (this is excluding EchelonTee) are allowed to get away with lynching a townie without ever even having to reason why it would be a big mistake. If one of those 3 happens to be scum then its like giving them a free pass on a kill.

OO's death is interesting in my opinion since a few people were kinda talking about lynching or thinking of lynching him come day 2. I think that regardless of if OO was NK or silver bullet shot, there was a reason why they chose him over somebody else. It seems that OO was mainly focused on sno for most of the game. He was also suspicious of others however sno is the one that seems to occur many times and sno's posts have very much the similar type where he has been mainly wanting to get rid of OO.

##Vote: Sn0_Man

On November 08 2013 13:12 Umasi wrote:

for my part: mainly because I was unsure about hzflank, and gumshoe was a better alternative.

I generally am leery of when people separate themselves from the thread so much in a /higher and mightier fashion, like 'wow you guys are duuuuuuumb and bad and not doing things effectively'
Is there a reason you're voting for sno aside from OO's interactions with him? (which I haven't read.)
You kind of jumped in thought process from
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=433955&currentpage=27#523

to 'he's pretty scummy' to voting him, but you never actually address things he says as far as I can tell.

On November 08 2013 13:17 Umasi wrote:
Yes, 'generally' being the key term.
rayn was weird for doing it as well, but he was also doing something to improve the state of the game iirc. This is just shitflinging.
and I dismiss it when you do it because entertaining the notion that you're scum at this point feels fucking ridiculous, as I think I've asserted multiple times. and if not, I'm asserting it now T>T

On November 08 2013 13:27 Umasi wrote:

no, I didn't. I searched for it and didn't find it, maybe I'm just blind.

On November 08 2013 14:47 raynpelikoneet wrote:
WoS i liked your post on Sn0, it's nearly the exact thoughts i had when i read those posts. He hasn't been saying much, there are people being discussed (me/Onegu/Syl/Hopeless/etc..) and he comes in with "hmm doods, why was OO hit?" and says pretty much nothing at all.

Onegu me doing nothing is bullshit. I have done the most today maybe barring thrawn, last night there was nothing to talk about because noone was here. At that point i had said everything there was to say for me. Why are you trying to continuously make me look bad for something that's not there? Feels like you have just decided i am scum and the go find reasons why could i be scum. Vote stands.

Sylencia looks worse. I liked his D1 but not his D2 the slightest. I can't possibly understand he has played scum with Onegu just a while ago and that's all he has to say about him.

Still waiting for hopeless to catch up. If he doesn't i will seriously consider him for a lynch. Same with Cephiro. I liked this from Umasi:


Koshiiiiiii <3<3<3<3 Also Koshi, i hope you catch up today, hzflank wasn't looking too dandy and you didn't really help your slot with your posts yet.

On November 08 2013 23:05 Sylencia wrote:


I talked about him last cycle, I have a better read this cycle. I'd much rather pursue that, but no one seems to listen.

Ceph dies, he flips scum, we're all happy. Easy. Thrawn, you don't sound like you have a town read on him (null?). Read his filter again. See it from scum perspective. Does it make sense? It probably should , and you should probably vote him.

Alternatives: Not Onegu, and not rayn. Onegu I have my reasons, rayn I've seen him as town for the majority of the game. Hopeless is an option, since he followed ET, and so is Sn0, WaveOfShadow has posted a good case on him, and I'd back that case.

Problems: I'm only around for the next 2 hours (maybe less, it's 1AM here). I need a reason to believe that Ceph is less likely to be scum compared to any of the alternatives. I don't really see it, but at the same time with the town being so AFK, I need to be on the most likely target else we get no lynch.

Anyone here to discuss?

On November 08 2013 23:14 Hopeless1der wrote:
and thats my queue to delurk. Since thrawn posted his case on ET its gained very little traction, and no on has been willing to call me out for being afk for more than 24 hours. For the record I'm only up to page 25/45 (the game before I replaced ET) but I also read cephiro's great-wall-of-WoS-is-scum post, so thats my excuse.

Regarding Koshi's recent posts...does that almost confirm him as town since scum dont get witchcraft votes?

---

So far, I have townreads on enough of the playerbase that lynching into my unknowns (assuming my townreads are right) would win the game by sheer numbers. The top of my would-lynch list is sylencia. This is partly OMGUS for him voting ET=me and partly what he's done today that thrawn already pointed out
+ Show Spoiler +

Others on my would-lynch list are umasi onegu and sn0-man, in no particular order, with no particular reasons than that I haven't found compelling reasons to call them town so far (Again, only up to page 25/45 at the time of this post)

On November 08 2013 23:35 Hopeless1der wrote:
i just got to rayn tearing up ET's case on thrawn. If I didn't know I was town...*cringe*
Working on it WoS, how long would you say I have before you have to post what you've got?

On November 08 2013 23:58 raynpelikoneet wrote:

I am not bragging about my activity. I am disgusted by the activity of nearly everyone in this game.
I don't really have reasons to not vote for Sno..
I am not voting Onegu as a policy. I am voting for him because he is making up reasons for me being scum - not trying to find them, he is voting for a guy who could by his own words only be scum if hz/Koshi is scum, he is outing witchcraft votes for no reason and his reads on other people are weak and shit. I have not had a trouble of reading him before, i have been using the "too dumb to be scum" argument for not lynching him before. I have had a scumread on him every single game he has been scum in.

Koshi is basically confirmed town and Hopeless is probably too rofl.

On November 09 2013 00:14 raynpelikoneet wrote:
So you think Blazinghand gave scum!Koshi a list of people hzflank voted in bitchcraft election D1?
Okay.
Hopeless noticed that too, therefore he has been given a list too most likely.

On November 09 2013 00:21 raynpelikoneet wrote:
I don't know, maybe read his posts? Do you think he has like... any clue what's going on in this game and how the game works?

More likely he is just "wtf is going on, okay i just out all info i do know to not get lynched today".

On November 09 2013 00:58 Onegu wrote:
Ok Im here for now.

##UNVOTE

##VOTE KOSHI

My main reason for voteing rayn over hz was rayn was the more dangerous player, and I do think rayn is more dangerous than koshi, the gap isnt as big. Im open to voteing sn0 also but I wont be here for deadline. Im going to go over a few filters before I sleep. Also rayn Im not makeing up scum reads on you, Im telling it like I see it, you may not agree but Im not makeing falsehoods.

On November 09 2013 01:02 Umasi wrote:
I'm not going to be around for the lynch today, will check in as frequently as I get the chance.
##unvote
##vote: cephiro
I'm most comfortable with Cephiro out of the people who look likely to get lynched, although I should be able to consolidate should he not be close to getting lynched.

On November 09 2013 01:07 Sn0_Man wrote:
I just explained why scum ought to be shooting off at least one silver bullet N1. Your explanation reads: "Please town, don't figure out the game".

See, you say he's a bad NK. We agree. Thats why I think he wasn't the NK. But you won't entertain that.

How the hell would I know who scum is? I never do lol. Currently on the "sheep thrawn" plan (hence my semi-paranoid fears regarding him). Next up is the LYNCH YOU plan cuz not only is this nothing like Town!WoS, you also are actively stomping on my perfectly reasonable discussion and flinging shit at me in the exact manner you accused me of doing to others.

On November 09 2013 01:15 Hopeless1der wrote:

Yeah I'm kind of lost as to how to comment on everything. You wanted my OO read first I guess, so I'll get that started.

On November 09 2013 01:20 Sn0_Man wrote:

Cuz they don't get more info. But they DO get less targets. And they deny themselves the chance to cut town's blue roles down almost instantly.

On November 09 2013 01:24 Umasi wrote:
regarding cephiro, he sure as shit is more likely to be lynched than vanesco. I will be able to change my vote before the lynch, so I'll do that in some number of hours if it is required of me.
baby steps.
afk for class

On November 09 2013 01:27 Hopeless1der wrote:

'confirmed' town for giving away his witchcraft votes. I'd do the same, but them I'd be scum trying to seek free towncred.

---

@WoS
OO seems to have done the most work on the Day1 votecount analysis. I think it happened too quickly to make anything meaningful out of it, but I could see that as a driving factor in the choice of NK, simply because he gave something for people to ponder over. Given that me and Koshi are 2 of his primary 3, my current theory is scum wanted to WIFOM us into mislynching the "apprehensive" gumshoe voters. I specifically say mislynch because I think koshi is town and obviously think (know) I am town. Sn0 can die in a fire though.

A lot of my other thoughts are town reads and I dont want to explain them unless people insist/are willing to lynch me if I dont. Silver bullet mechanics make that stuff even more detrimental to town.

On November 09 2013 01:30 Vanesco wrote:
Ok so has nobody noticed that although Onegu says he is voting on rayn but puts his vote instead on koshi? (apart from maybe WoS). Onegu, not giving reasons for your vote just seems like your trying to put your vote on someone and hoping that others agree with you. I want to hear more of why you voted for you who voted (and maybe switch your vote cause from your post it looks like you want to vote rayn instead of koshi).

I also don't like how Umasi just comes out of nowhere after being on my case for the whole game and then just suddenly backing off without any reason why. He then proceeds to vote without anything other than thinking that cephiro is a possible lynch. Like wtf. Umasi explain your actions since nothing is making sense.

Sno keeps on talking about how he thinks OO died and is really wanting to make others think that it is a silver bullet (when we are not sure). To me it seems most likely that sno is saying this because if OO was killed by a silver bullet, it puts less suspicion on him, but if OO was a nightkill than there seems to be more suspicion on sno. I've also disliked that sno at one point wanted the votes on the blue to come out.

At the moment I am comfortable with lynching Umasi or sno.

On November 09 2013 01:34 Sn0_Man wrote:
how come everybody's scum this game?

WoS/Vanesco/Onegu/Hopeless play townier.

On November 09 2013 01:48 raynpelikoneet wrote:
I am not saying Cephiro is a good lynch, i am saying i can follow Umasi's thought process from his posts.
How on earth can you think he is better lynch than Onegu. Fucking look at his filter?!?!?!?
The dude makes a "yolo these guys locked scum here is reasoning because this other guy is scum but this guy more dangerous but i donät really know why this other dude is scum after all but tyeah these both guys scum and this guy maybe litte bit better than that guy was but yeah he postd scummy word yes 100% lock in lynch go vote yes nocomment on anyone else peace vote rayn no maybe koshi".

WTF WOS?

On November 09 2013 01:55 Onegu wrote:



I agree to this

On November 09 2013 02:01 Onegu wrote:


Nope