EPTWitchcraft Mini Mafia II
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Vanesco
United States105 Posts
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Vanesco
United States105 Posts
Thanks for the help tho  | ||
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Vanesco
United States105 Posts
On November 04 2013 08:53 Sylencia wrote: So to anyone who was in the original game, other than our usual win-con, what else should we be looking at in terms of how Witchcraft works? I don't really like this. You don't really put effort in to even cross-check the players from the last game (of witchcraft) which is really simple to do. The only player to play in the last one is Thrawn who was shot night 1. But I think that is not very relevant since each game can turn out different. I think you should come to your own conclusions on how to play this themed game instead of hoping others tell you how to play. It just seems like your not willing to put the effort in to even try to solve this game for yourself. It's also very dangerous to discuss strategy because scum can see everything also and can use that against town. I'm of the opinion that everybody should play the way THEY think is the correct way to play. | ||
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Vanesco
United States105 Posts
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Vanesco
United States105 Posts
On November 04 2013 11:11 WaveofShadow wrote: What do you think of hzflank and his attempt to make plays? Or Sylencia's response to your attack? I'm assuming you are talking about this. I like hzflank's analysis since it makes sense to me, but like I mentioned before I do not like really discussing strategy that much since scum can just meta it. Overall it feels like a townny play trying to rally everybody in one general direction. With Sylencia I can understand being busy and being a little lazy even tho it took me maybe a minute to cross reference people. He even answers himself that unless anybody obs'd last game then there is no answer to his question. So at this moment I have him as a null read. | ||
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Vanesco
United States105 Posts
On November 04 2013 10:30 Umasi wrote: I think it's scummy that I read this and I can't tell if you think Sylencia is scummy or not, when my first impression was 'he's acting accusatory' (with your first line) but then continue reading and can't actually determine if you just think his thoughts are bad or if he's scummy for his lack of ideas on the setup and for him not looking up a player list. Also, asking us not to discuss strategy is blatantly scum agenda. ##Vote: Vanesco Also, I support claiming votes and actions after they occur, so once it's back to the blues being VTs and unviggable, can't really think of a downside. I find it interesting that Umasi's only post is this. He has conveniently left and I would like to hear more of his current thoughts. He says he cannot determine if i "just think his (Syl's) thoughts are bad or if he's scummy" and it seems he uses that as one of his reasons why he thinks I'm scummy, which seems like a stretch of a reasoning in my opinion. His only real accusation seems to be that anybody not wanting strategy to be discussed is obviously scum when my reasoning is that scum can use it as meta (unless the plan is completely foolproof, which in this case it is not). | ||
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Vanesco
United States105 Posts
I'm having a really big scum read on Umasi currently. As explained before, in his first post I think only consists of 1 real accusation which is that I do not like talking about strategy since scum can meta it. To me it seems that he wants town to discuss strategy which leads me to the two most likely conclusions. 1) He doesn't know what to do, usually means a weak town and can be tricked easily by scum, or 2) mafia that wants to know the towns plans and how to use it against them His only other post is him making a joke at somebody who thinks he's scum and then saying that I didn't pressure Syl hard (which I explain in the paragraph above). He then talks about how I don't like to talk about strategy which I explain why above. He mistakenly calls strategy "mechanics" when they are completely different things (in my opinion). I view mechanics as the rules of the game where strategy is how to play the game. I don't know if this is just me but it seems like he wants to blame that I'm not allowing people to discuss the rules of the game when infact I just don't like when people discuss the strategy they are going to use. | ||
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Vanesco
United States105 Posts
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Vanesco
United States105 Posts
On November 04 2013 14:05 Umasi wrote: Elaborating on Vanesco here, I'll use this post as an example Main question for you here is: How could we ruin strategies by talking about them? For instance, how do scum fuck with this plan. How would you abuse this plan as scum? Would you? CAN YOU? what witchcraft discussion CAN scum abuse? Since blues are based on townreads ANYWAY, it's not like we're all blue hunting at all, so power discussion isn't something scum can abuse. Especially because they don't have roleblockers or anything, only blue vigis. although I don't think there's an important facet of strategy discussion to be had (otherwise I'd talk more about strategy,) your specific outlook on how to handle it is scummy. I believe that by talking about a plan (in this game, with this setup) is a bad choice because lets say we find out that player X,Y,Z were voted on the most. That means the next 3 votes will probably overlap with at least 1 of the previously chosen players. This just seems like we are giving scum an easy way to kill one of the blue roles. | ||
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Vanesco
United States105 Posts
##Vote: Umasi | ||
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Vanesco
United States105 Posts
On November 04 2013 15:37 Onegu wrote: I think I would have liked you better if you didnt vote and stuck to you guns, this seems like "oh crap I better vote him because people are calling me out". Well I agree with the reasoning which is why I decided to vote. Also since many people commented on it, it seems like a fairly normal thing to do on TL mafia and since I plan on playing many more games, it would be foolish not to adapt. Overall, regardless whether I was voting for him or not, I still stand by Umasi being one of my scum reads. | ||
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Vanesco
United States105 Posts
On November 04 2013 14:53 EchelonTee wrote: What are you talking about? Your reasoning for not voting is that other people could sheep onto you without giving input. The problem with that reasoning is as follows: 1.) You state that you have a "really big scum read on Umasi". 2.) If you have a big scum read on someone, it follows that you should want them lynched. 3.) If you vote them and people sheep on to you, those people are helping exact the lynch that you want. If you have a big scum read someone, why do you have a problem with people agreeing with your read? Is your read on Umasi actually not "really big"? This doesn't make sense. These are the points I agree with mostly. Since currently Umasi is my biggest scum read he would be my first lynch and then I would look more closely anybody who I think sheep'd in. I do not really agree on your point WoS that the first person I pressure in the game has to have my vote. I did not get a scum read from him, therefore I did not vote. | ||
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Vanesco
United States105 Posts
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Vanesco
United States105 Posts
I don't really like your reasoning sno_man on the lynch on Onegu. Especially as a Day 1 lynch I think it would not be a wise move just lynching somebody because you have a hard time reading them. On November 04 2013 12:04 thrawn2112 wrote: This vanesco thing, I could hardly be less interested in any of the arguments against him. I AM interested in WoS's post and want him to get back to me before the magic wears off. This is the only thing thrawn has posted that seems relevant so far. It seems like he's not interested in any arguments on me and just goes straight at WoS for his post on me. It seems more like a deflection off of me and onto WoS. Maybe there was something more he wanted to say about WoS but he doesn't really have any useful information apart from the part i quoted above. Yes it was his special day but I do not like what he has contributed in the game so far. My two strongest town reads in the game so far is Echelon and Sylencia. Echelon has made posts that make sense to me and his response to OO saying that Echelon was going "bat-shit" seems very level headed. I was comfortable with Sylencia's first response to my first post and he has stuck true to everything that he has said from the start of the game. | ||
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Vanesco
United States105 Posts
As I have mentioned before, after Syl's first response to me I didn't really see anything scummy in it and so I put him back in null. On November 04 2013 19:28 Sylencia wrote: Options 1/2 about strategy are fairly weak, as I mentioned above, there are biggest fish to fry than foiling strategies most of the time when playing scum (honestly, if scum timezones dont match up good luck with getting anywhere on that, but that's outside the scope of our investigations anyways), and I would've thought that discussing strategy would be a good thing since we can actually get an agreement on some things we should(n't) do, since we've already seen (from you nonetheless) that there are problems in the reveal at night X+1 strategy. Had we not discussed this, someone could've followed the train of thought that we've discussed and just gone through with it without thinking about the fact that scum can possibly realise they've been voted for again the following day. This is what makes me lean from null to slightly town. Even tho I show a clear flaw in the plan he still sticks to it and if I'm understanding him correctly, it seems that had I not pointed out the flaw it would have been a greater benefit for town than for scum. Although I disagree with the idea, he doesn't change his case even after evidence has been shown why it might be a bad idea and isn't afraid to stand by his motion. Everybody that I have not mentioned I have a null read on. | ||
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Vanesco
United States105 Posts
##Unvote ##Vote: raynpelikoneet I still don't really like Umasi's points but rayn's posts just seem like general scum play: distract town, spam, avoid giving reasons to reads. | ||
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Vanesco
United States105 Posts
I also think that a day 1 lynch on WoS is not a good idea since most people have either expressed they think he is town, or have not given a read on him (I'm assuming for now those mean null). I thought before that WoS was a little scummy but since then he become slightly town for me. His frustration with Cephiro's arguments seem to be something that a fed up town would do. I think that most people in the thread will agree with me that there are targets that seem more suspicious than WoS. Maybe Cephiro is trying to deflect off of somebody that was being targetted? He seems very much to want to keep the discussion on mainly WoS and only WoS. | ||
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Vanesco
United States105 Posts
So first off I will try to focus on mainly my most towny/scummy reads and everybody else i'll give a short description on (don't wanna make super long post since I hate reading them, and I assume so do others). Rayn: He is my current vote at this moment and at the time of posting my vote I didn't find anything in his play that was really helpful to town and that his posts seemed like typical scum posts. Since that time I think he has stepped up his game and asked decent questions and provided insight that seem original. However his vote on gumshoe is very strange since he hasn't really given a strong read on why he is reading him as scum. Possibly jumping the bandwagon? I give him a null to slightly scummy read. And since I don't think he is currently the most scummy: ##Unvote WoS: My read on him this game is town. As mentioned before I think he was slightly town but I am thinking even more so because of question about Syl which seemed to have brought many responses (5 in response to the original question, 6 if you include WoS's response). If anything he is getting more people to talk and give reads and that is rarely a bad thing in my opinion. OO: I will say that OO has a very unique way to how he posts and I get a good vibe from it. It doesn't feel forced in any way and I feel that reading thru his filter I am able to go along with his thought process and reasoning towards it. Towny read at the moment. Cephiro: Has gone very hard on WoS and I stand by my read from my previous post on him, however since he has gone SOOOO against the grain it would be a strange play by scum. Still slightly scummy but less so than before. Syl: As mentioned before, don't like strategy talk, which since his filter is so short, he seems to bring up alot which rubs me personally the wrong way but his reads have seemed ok to me so far (eg. reads on cephiro's play). Overall null. sno_man: Coming into this I am very cautious because he seems to be one of the people everybody is jumping on. He seems to want to lynch Onegu near the start because he cannot read him (terrible accusation). He has a very carefree attitude and he hasn't really given any real reads in my opinion. I am worried however that scum might tag along the sno train to lynch town. I have a null read on him atm but that is because he hasn't really said anything. No matter what his affiliation is, I think he is playing without care of the game. gumshoe: At first he thinks WoS might be scummy but later on changes his opinion. He actually seems open to being wrong in his reads (happens again with OO) and overall I feel like I am able to follow along with his train of thoughts. Slightly town read. thrawn: He seems to ask many questions in his filter at the start of the game and it seems like he was fishing for people's thoughts on others without really having to give any of his reads. He then votes for ryan without any reason other than not liking how ryan has played so far (understandable i guess, but still weak). What bothers me is how he tells WoS that he is usually the center of attention and his first point seems very scummy. " 1) there aren't enough people who are familiar with my town play who could bail me out if things go wrong". This just seems really off since he is already making sure that he is not a target since he cannot be given a free out. He also seems to just unvote rayn without really pushing him after giving his vote on him. It just seems like he was hoping many others would latch on, and after a while of nobody really biting, he unvotes without any reason. Currently he is a scummy read to me. I would like to know your reasons why you unvoted rayn. Umasi: Most of the game he has focused on me (I would describe the tunnel vision similar to that of cephiro). He also hasn't really brought up any insightful reads. He also doesn't give his reads because it would "lack of overall effect on the thread" which seems like a silly point and I think town should always be trying to share their reads, don't have to share all, but atleast of the people you put under scrutiny. Overall between scummy and slightly scummy. I would be cautious tho because it seems another easy vote for mafia to jump on to. Onegu: He seems like another one that will be easy to jump on. I am reading him as null. He has had a few words with WoS but other than that he hasn't really said much of his reads. I don't really see him contribute much to town overall tho, but nothing reads as immediately scummy. Echelon: He was one of my top 2 town reads before and he still is. He is asking good appropriate questions and is making good sense to me. Everything in my last post about him still stands. hzflank: As mentioned by me many times, don't like strategy talk but I think that him and I just beleive in a different philosophy of how things should be done and we should agree to disagree. Apart from that I think he is asking appropriate questions and they seem more like sincere wanting to get reads from others for himself to use than just pretending to seem townish. Overall slightly town. Having said all that my #1 scum read is thrawn. ##Vote: thrawn2112 | ||
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Vanesco
United States105 Posts
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Vanesco
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Vanesco
United States105 Posts
Echelon has been one of my most townie reads for a large majority of this game. I agree with his point that the second time that thrawn votes ryan it is not given reason as to why really. Yes it seems more like pressure but I think its possible he just misinterpreted that. The rest of the points seem to more about meta game things, which since I know none of you I can't get too involved in that. However the accusations on the meta seem very weak to me. I do only agree that maybe his case on gumshoe is fairly weak. Just because somebody shows effort and contribution by making a long post does not mean they cannot be scum, however the way I read it is that he thinks gumshoe is at least providing more pro town content than thrawn. It seems that there has been no real agreement on a target and as such I still think thrawn is the best vote. I will try to come online during work near the post deadline to see if anything sways my opinion, and since I will be on my phone and short pressed on time, I will give any vote changes reasoning once I return home. | ||
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Vanesco
United States105 Posts
Before the voting spree there were no votes on gumshoe, however hzflank was starting to gain traction with a total of 6 votes at that moment. Just one vote away from being a majority vote, thrawn decides to unvote and vote for gumshoes. thrawn is also the one to start the votes on hz and claims it to just be a placeholder. However his change right when hz is about to get the majority vote is interesting. It seems to be a deflection and since gumshoe hasn't been super active during the game he would be a good target. Also the last person to vote on hz was infact gumshoe. It seems like it is a possibility that thrawn saw an opportunity to take off on gumshoe because of his late vote and him being a good target that people might be willing to go for. It seems like thrawn is trying to deflect off of hz and onto gumshoe in my opinion. It just seems like too much of a coincidence to not at least take into account. Basically after that rayn, hz, umasi, echelon, sno, and cephiro kinda just jump on without stating a reason why (very little time so kinda understandable). Now that you don't only have 5 minutes to explain your vote, I would like to hear all of you (everybody who voted on him) why you decided to vote on gumshoe. | ||
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Vanesco
United States105 Posts
On November 06 2013 11:17 thrawn2112 wrote: I don't know what you're accusing me of. Yeah, I was the first person on both wagons. So what? Are you saying I tried to save hzflank by switching to gumshoe? This only makes sense if hz is mafia, but then why would I have even tried to get hz lynched in the first place? I voted for gumshoe because I changed my mind about hz after seeing what looked like honest posts right before the deadline. Gumshoe also came in at a hilariously bad timing, and he was sorta the only person that it looked like people would agree to lynch. You need to understand that I don't think that many people actually preferred gumshoe, but because people like yourself weren't there to help us figure out the lynch we had to choose between shitty options. Right at the end there it was either hz, gum, or no lynch. If you think we should have done a better job maybe you'll be around next time to help? You don't really end up voting for him because you really think he is scum. You even say that you use him as a placeholder and afterwards you explain your read on him here but even in that case you say that you are hesitant on him. It's alright to change ones mind, I'm just pointing out that it happened at a very crucial time and seems very much like a possible coincidence. And are you attacking me? I gave previous reasons as to why I would not be available well in advance. | ||
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Vanesco
United States105 Posts
On November 06 2013 11:41 thrawn2112 wrote: Correct, when I voted for him I did not think he was scum, as I stated in the vote post. At that point in the game I was using process of elimination to decide on a lynch and hzflank was one of the people I ruled out. I went and researched his filter, and it turned out there were things in his filter that made me actually want to lynch him which is why I stuck with my vote and tried to convince others to go along with it. And yes I was attacking you, not because I think you're scum (which I don't) but because it's really fucking annoying to be in the thread for like 4 solid hours before the lynch deadline desperately trying to put together a lynch when hardly anyone is around, and then later people who weren't around to help blame the people who were there. Don't get me wrong thrawn, I'm not putting any blame on you. I just posted that it is very coincidental and should be taken note off. The fact that you think I'm blaming you I think is more to do with the fact that you probably expect some type of blame to be put on you because you were the first to post the voting bus on gumshoe and that I also gave you as my biggest scum read. I'll try to summarize my first post in much shorter words. The vote seems rushed and rushed usually means a good time for scum to start jumping, therefore I feel like at least 1 vote should have come from scum. The interaction that took place should be noted off because of how coincidental it seems. Everybody who voted on gumshoe should give reasons why. | ||
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Vanesco
United States105 Posts
So for all who voted on hzflank, I would like to see why you thought that hzflank was your appropriate vote at the time. | ||
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Vanesco
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Vanesco
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Vanesco
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Vanesco
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Out of the 7 who voted on gumshoe I feel like the most scummy are umasi and sno_man. For those who are wondering why thrawn isn't there is because I do not think he is as scummy as I did last time. Ever since night 1 he has been posting well in my opinion. Another reason why is because of what I found suspicious at first, that he kinda deflected off of hzflank and started the vote on gumshoe. The more I think of it it makes me lean more town on him each time. The argument still stands if they are both scum, but it would have been a big risk to take, but still a possibility. I don't see the scenario working if thrawn was scum and hzflank was town, that he would poke his head so far out to vote on gumshoe when all that was needed was 1 more vote on hzflank. And if thrawn is town, regardless of hzflanks alignment, he thought that gumshoe was a better vote as explained in his reasoning. | ||
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Vanesco
United States105 Posts
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Vanesco
United States105 Posts
So far (unless I accidentally missed it in the thread), Umasi, EchelonTee (now kinda excused since replaced), Sn0_Man, and Cephiro have not given any type of explanation as to why they decided to change their vote onto gumshoe in the last few minutes, which I am still waiting for. If those 3 (this is excluding EchelonTee) are allowed to get away with lynching a townie without ever even having to reason why it would be a big mistake. If one of those 3 happens to be scum then its like giving them a free pass on a kill. OO's death is interesting in my opinion since a few people were kinda talking about lynching or thinking of lynching him come day 2. I think that regardless of if OO was NK or silver bullet shot, there was a reason why they chose him over somebody else. It seems that OO was mainly focused on sno for most of the game. He was also suspicious of others however sno is the one that seems to occur many times and sno's posts have very much the similar type where he has been mainly wanting to get rid of OO. ##Vote: Sn0_Man | ||
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Vanesco
United States105 Posts
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Vanesco
United States105 Posts
##Vote: Sn0_Man | ||
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Vanesco
United States105 Posts
I also don't like how Umasi just comes out of nowhere after being on my case for the whole game and then just suddenly backing off without any reason why. He then proceeds to vote without anything other than thinking that cephiro is a possible lynch. Like wtf. Umasi explain your actions since nothing is making sense. Sno keeps on talking about how he thinks OO died and is really wanting to make others think that it is a silver bullet (when we are not sure). To me it seems most likely that sno is saying this because if OO was killed by a silver bullet, it puts less suspicion on him, but if OO was a nightkill than there seems to be more suspicion on sno. I've also disliked that sno at one point wanted the votes on the blue to come out. At the moment I am comfortable with lynching Umasi or sno. | ||
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Vanesco
United States105 Posts
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Vanesco
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Vanesco
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Vanesco
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Vanesco
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I still would prefer lynching either umasi or sno but I would be willing to also lynch onegu as my 3rd at this moment. I will still keep my vote on sno since we still have 2 hours to decide and I think he is the better lynch, but if need be I will switch to either umasi or onegu (I will be here till deadline). | ||
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Vanesco
United States105 Posts
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Vanesco
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Vanesco
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Vanesco
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Vanesco
United States105 Posts
If I were to have to add a 3rd it would have to be koshi. He has done nothing in the game except for saying some random things and just lurk around. Everybody else at least have given some types of reads and some reasonings to them where it seems that koshi just wants everybody to do the work for them and just sheep onto them. ##Vote: Sn0_Man | ||
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Vanesco
United States105 Posts
##Vote: Sn0_Man | ||
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Vanesco
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Vanesco
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To the accusations on me I think most of them are just on my filter length. In my newbie game I was able to try to lead town discussion but however I pointed too many fingers at everybody in day 1 and that made my death almost useless as I pointed out something scummy in everyone (not to mention most of my biggest scum reads were town). This game I am being more cautious with my accusations because of how poorly my judgement was in the previous game. Although I haven't posted much I am analyzing the game pretty carefully and trying to push my lynch targets as best as I can. I would still think that sno is the best lynch. He's not having to do anything and is still getting a free pass all fucking game long. It's like everybody else is allowing lurkers to lurk all game long without providing anything at all. Just read his filter and try to find some original reads he has on people and you will find practically none, all he really does is just analyse facts that don't make him give any reads (eg. that maybe OO died by silver bullet). | ||
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Vanesco
United States105 Posts
Sorry I played so shitty guys, unexpected RL stuff happened in the last 24 hours which didn't allow me to even access a PC  GG AND GL TO ALL :D | ||
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