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On June 26 2013 08:07 hzflank wrote:
There is not a wagon on Stim, only me. The other person who I would be willing to switch to is Alakaslam, who Onegu ic currently on and I still do not think Onegu is scum.
Onegu moved his vote off of Aqua very early and has shown no indication of moving it back. If Xzavier and Onegu are both scum then Onegu should of kept his vote on Aqua until the wagon gathered more steam. There were still many people who had not voted when Onegu moved his vote.
The way the thread was reading makes it seem stim will be getting a few more votes. at least to me.
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On June 26 2013 09:11 Chromatically wrote:
Spicy and hz, did you read my case? It didn't convince you at all?
And if you put your vote on someone random, and then don't push their lynch at all, you are wasting your vote.
I read it and wasnt convinced. I had spent most of my time after the case posted defending my defense of Xzavier and then had work. I did update the case based off of his then vote on stim. No one else has commented on my case and 1/2 the thread thinks im scum for defending xzavier so theres nothing i can do at this point. I'd like your comment on my case.
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On June 26 2013 09:27 Chromatically wrote:Your case on Sponge? I have Sponge (and you) as strong town. I didn't much like Sponge's early game policy stuff either, but his recent posting is really townie. Look at page 2-3 of his filter particularly. He's freely offering opinions, posting a lot, interacting with others in a very townie way. Your case only looks at his early posting, but look at his recent posting, because that's where the towniness is. When I said "my case on Xzav", I meant this one: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=417692¤tpage=25#495Has everyone read this?I'm getting the feeling that it was missed.
I dont like the vote for the lurker as it seemed an easy cop out. Then his switch to xzavier doesnt help as i think xzavier isnt scum. He has picked up commenting about cases a lot more, but that's to be expected when accused. There was a huge shift in his play style before and after my vote on him. Perhaps he became more active to push the mislynch? I honestly dont know but looking at his filter it just feels scummy.
And your new case didnt really add anything new, just commented on xzaviers posts. At this point xzavier is going to be lynched barring some big last minute vote switches.
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Just caught up on the thread from the start of the night post.
@hurricane: i was planning on posting my thoughts on why the aqua vote was bad but i got caught up with my defense of xzavier and then real world work. A quick summary for why i thought it was bad was because xzavier's "case" was weak as already noted, onegu didnt really add much with his vote other than he doesnt like aqua's gut feeling. Nothing felt convincing really. I haven't filter dove aqua yet so ill probably do that day 2.
Your play has stepped up a TON since the time i put my case on you and it has frankly been a lot more townie than i expected.
As for the whole fyfy/stim thing. I've said all along that i thought at the time that stim was a better target as the lurkers werent equal with stim actually posting during the game. Tofu saw them as equal lurkers so thats why we went back and forth on that point.
As for night actions, in past games when i tried directing blues, they didnt listen to me and ended up doing something better so im not going to do it this game.
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On June 26 2013 20:01 Aquanim wrote:
@Spicydinosaur: What is your read on FormTofu?
I'll reply to Onegu's above case later, don't have time at the moment.
thought him scummy early on but townie when he defended himself. A few of his posts during the last day though really made me question him.
On June 25 2013 16:35 FirmTofu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2013 15:29 Xzavier wrote:On June 25 2013 15:16 FirmTofu wrote:
Hey Xzavier, what do you think about Spicy? Would you be willing to switch your vote onto him? Honestly not today. he did a really good jpb as town last game and gave some good insights. After going threw his filter it seems like he was forced into a defensive posting pattern due to pressure. he hasnt said much recently. Honestly i wouldnt mind lynching alakazam day 1. But ill giv him a chance to respond. Im really not liking chrom or auqa for their tunnelling me while ignoring logic and basing everything off of the fact that i havnt caught scum yet or made a case. The fact that you are willing to change your vote to Alakazam but not Spicy is rather arbitrary. When facing death, a townie would be willing to change his vote to anyone to stay alive. You have sealed your fate in my eyes with this response and have furthered confirmed my suspicions of Spicy. As it seems very few people agree with my suspicions of Spicy, I will defer to a sub-optimal lynch of you. ##Unvote: SpicyDinosaur##Vote: Xzavier
He tries to use his suspicion of me to justify a vote on xzavier with horrible logic. I already posted a response to this but it got buried so i will cut/paste what i wrote.
The two people who have the most votes are xzavier and aqua. If xzavier wanted to stay alive then he would keep his vote on aqua, otherwise his own chance of being lynched goes up if he takes it off. The fact that he's willing to take his vote OFF of the other major lynch candidate and onto another he thinks is scummy shows that he is scum hunting a little. Though were his vote ultimately ends up is the real indicator.
I also dont get how him not voting for me makes him scummier now. No one else in the thread bought your argument against me, yet Xzavier is the only one to receive your wrath for doing so? It looks like you are trying to make arbitrary reasonings to reinforce your vote like you did with me.
This next post is him setting up his N1/Day 2 play which continues to try and set me up as mafia for defending xzavier. This just feels like he is hedging his bet or knows that xzavier flips town. Also in his "xzavier is town scenario" he precludes any notion that scum were on xzavier. Furthermore he even says that stim is a better lynch target but doesnt vote him and MAKES NO EFFORT TO GET PEOPLE TO SWITCH TO STIM. His following posts are trying to get people to move to xzavier to ensure a lynch.
On June 26 2013 01:03 FirmTofu wrote:
I've skimmed through the thread to get a handle on where people are leaning.
Scenario 1: Xzavier is town
Mafia should be distancing themselves from the lynch and somewhat defending him.
Scenario 2: Xzavier is mafia
Mafia should be vehemently arguing in his defense while also trying to distance themselves from him. It's a balancing act that is hard to do.
Keep an eye out for people who fall into the latter category for now.
On another note, I agree with Hurricane that StiM is the best lynch for today. However, letting Aqua die is simply not an option. We only lynch StiM if we know we can get enough votes.
no effort is made to get people to switch to stim
On June 26 2013 02:23 FirmTofu wrote:
Sounds great! Could you consider looking through Xzavier's filter and reading Chromatically's case against Xzavier and consider voting for him? I would be willing to take you off my scum list if you would do that.
On June 26 2013 02:24 FirmTofu wrote:Shhhhhhhhhhhhhh We are trying to convince him to vote Xzavier, not antagonize and interrogate him.
Furthermore, almost all his posts are focusing on people who DIDNT vote to lynch xzavier. He has a valid point on onegu's apathy and ill filter that separately. But stim, the person who he thought was the scummiest, is no longer mentioned anywhere.
The next quote he continues throwing scum at me by saying i knew xzavier would flip town which of course is a load of bull.
On June 26 2013 12:34 FirmTofu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2013 12:29 Alakaslam wrote:On June 26 2013 09:49 Spicydinosaur wrote:On June 26 2013 09:27 Chromatically wrote:Your case on Sponge? I have Sponge (and you) as strong town. I didn't much like Sponge's early game policy stuff either, but his recent posting is really townie. Look at page 2-3 of his filter particularly. He's freely offering opinions, posting a lot, interacting with others in a very townie way. Your case only looks at his early posting, but look at his recent posting, because that's where the towniness is. When I said "my case on Xzav", I meant this one: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=417692¤tpage=25#495Has everyone read this?I'm getting the feeling that it was missed. I dont like the vote for the lurker as it seemed an easy cop out. Then his switch to xzavier doesnt help as i think xzavier isnt scum. He has picked up commenting about cases a lot more, but that's to be expected when accused. There was a huge shift in his play style before and after my vote on him. Perhaps he became more active to push the mislynch? I honestly dont know but looking at his filter it just feels scummy. And your new case didnt really add anything new, just commented on xzaviers posts. At this point xzavier is going to be lynched barring some big last minute vote switches. Spicy, work with sponge please. This will lead to town victory. You two (and Onegu) are the most clearheaded in the thread so far, and you've both been right in the face of bandwagon. Learning, learning.... Have you ever stopped to consider that the reason they appear the most "clear headed" is because they know that the flip will be town? You realize that if they know the flip is town, they are scum? I mean, this is common sense. The reason they look smart is because they know people's alignment and can act accordingly. He keeps trying to discredit me and anyone who doesnt vote me is my scum buddy (like he said with xzavier). Look at his case against me, i discredited 1/2 of it and what does he do? change his theory around to fit the new facts. Same goes with xzavier, he claimed we were scum buddies and that justified a vote. He was wrong on me and he was wrong on xzavier. Furthermore i dont like how he tries to set up scenarios before the lynch is over that point right back to me. Going to look at the onegu issue now and post my thoughts on that in a separate post. Scum tell are when you find these leaps in logic that indicate that a logical step in their reasoning assumes certain alignments. You've got to keep looking for these things.
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EBWOP: messed up the quotes at the end: should read as the following
The next quote he continues throwing scum at me by saying i knew xzavier would flip town which of course is a load of bull.
On June 26 2013 12:34 FirmTofu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2013 12:29 Alakaslam wrote:On June 26 2013 09:49 Spicydinosaur wrote:On June 26 2013 09:27 Chromatically wrote:Your case on Sponge? I have Sponge (and you) as strong town. I didn't much like Sponge's early game policy stuff either, but his recent posting is really townie. Look at page 2-3 of his filter particularly. He's freely offering opinions, posting a lot, interacting with others in a very townie way. Your case only looks at his early posting, but look at his recent posting, because that's where the towniness is. When I said "my case on Xzav", I meant this one: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=417692¤tpage=25#495Has everyone read this?I'm getting the feeling that it was missed. I dont like the vote for the lurker as it seemed an easy cop out. Then his switch to xzavier doesnt help as i think xzavier isnt scum. He has picked up commenting about cases a lot more, but that's to be expected when accused. There was a huge shift in his play style before and after my vote on him. Perhaps he became more active to push the mislynch? I honestly dont know but looking at his filter it just feels scummy. And your new case didnt really add anything new, just commented on xzaviers posts. At this point xzavier is going to be lynched barring some big last minute vote switches. Spicy, work with sponge please. This will lead to town victory. You two (and Onegu) are the most clearheaded in the thread so far, and you've both been right in the face of bandwagon. Learning, learning.... Have you ever stopped to consider that the reason they appear the most "clear headed" is because they know that the flip will be town? You realize that if they know the flip is town, they are scum? I mean, this is common sense. The reason they look smart is because they know people's alignment and can act accordingly. Scum tell are when you find these leaps in logic that indicate that a logical step in their reasoning assumes certain alignments. You've got to keep looking for these things.
He keeps trying to discredit me and anyone who doesnt vote me is my scum buddy (like he said with xzavier). Look at his case against me, i discredited 1/2 of it and what does he do? change his theory around to fit the new facts. Same goes with xzavier, he claimed we were scum buddies and that justified a vote. He was wrong on me and he was wrong on xzavier. Furthermore i dont like how he tries to set up scenarios before the lynch is over that point right back to me.
Going to look at the onegu issue now and post my thoughts on that in a separate post.
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Few thoughts on Onegu: I'll try not to repeat what others have said for the sake of spamming the thread.
About his apathy claim between xzavier and aqua: I don't get why he said this as it makes 0 sense from either a town or scum perspective as his vote wasnt even on one of them. What i find more interesting is that regardless of the lynch, he will not be voting for Alakaslam next day. He claimed that if xzavier flips town, aqua gets voted, and if he flips scum, i get voted. What happened to Alakaslam?
His Aqua case: He seems to be tunneling aqua now (again?) with an updated case. A lot of it seems very nit picky. but i still come back to one thought... What about Alakaslam? I understand that reads change over time, but onegu went from voting aqua to alakaslam and now back to focusing on aqua. Why isnt alakaslam a priority target now? Unless i missed a post buried in the 6 pages of thread i caught up on.
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On June 26 2013 23:14 hzflank wrote:
@Aqua: Do you realize how many negative little posts you made about Onegu on day 1? If you are town then this is a good reason for someone to start a wagon on Onegu on day 2, because you were on the wrong wagon on day 1 and it looks like someone can easily get you on Onegu's wagon on day 2. Then you get outed on on the day 3 lylo and the scum get an easy win. If you are town, I would suggest you make yourself very sure of Onegu's guilt before you jump on his wagon, because I think that you are being played.
Any talk of D2 lynches is dangerous as scum can easily redirect night actions. Posting cases and thoughts are fine, but anything that resembles "as soon as d2 post is up my vote is on x" should be avoided.
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On June 27 2013 00:47 Chromatically wrote:About SpicyIt's hard to tell if his reasons for not voting Xzav are legit, given that I disagreed with them. They could be real or artificial as far as I can tell, I can't get anything from that. What I don't like (and this is a general statement about Spicy, Stim, and Onegu) is that when your vote is not on a leading wagon, you should be doing your ABSOLUTE BEST to push your read. This is especially true if you have a town read on the leader. A townie would do everything that they can to prevent a mislynch.Spicy defends Xzav a little, but then drops it with this post: Show nested quote +On June 26 2013 09:21 Spicydinosaur wrote:On June 26 2013 09:11 Chromatically wrote:
Spicy and hz, did you read my case? It didn't convince you at all?
And if you put your vote on someone random, and then don't push their lynch at all, you are wasting your vote. I read it and wasnt convinced. I had spent most of my time after the case posted defending my defense of Xzavier and then had work. I did update the case based off of his then vote on stim. No one else has commented on my case and 1/2 the thread thinks im scum for defending xzavier so theres nothing i can do at this point. I'd like your comment on my case. He backs off of defending Xzav because "1/2 the thread thinks im scum" for it. This is a clear exaggeration. At most, ONE person had called him scum for defending Xzavier. Is this overstatement a sign of a scum persecution complex? Maybe. I also really don't like how he gave up on Xzav so easily. Maybe it's just a playstyle difference, but if I think someone is about to be mislynched, I would be posting a TON, urging voteswitches, and aggressively trying to move the lynch.
That last part you quoted was in reference to pushing hurricane, not defending xzavier as the previous sentence was talking about hurricane's case. Immediately after i posted a defense of xzavier i got replies from you, lone, onegu, and tofu. Perhaps its because i was on the defensive most of D1 so the quick replies by a bunch of people got me into that feeling. I tried my best to counter but it went nowhere. My defense of xzavier was based off of meta, and people didnt agree with it, so what else could i have said? I would just be repeating myself.
It feels weird that it looks scummy that i didnt defend xzavier enough and yet i look scummy for tofu for defending too much (or at all).
Also please look at my recent post about tofu about not pushing scum reads.
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On June 27 2013 00:52 Onegu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2013 23:47 Spicydinosaur wrote:
Few thoughts on Onegu: I'll try not to repeat what others have said for the sake of spamming the thread.
About his apathy claim between xzavier and aqua: I don't get why he said this as it makes 0 sense from either a town or scum perspective as his vote wasnt even on one of them. What i find more interesting is that regardless of the lynch, he will not be voting for Alakaslam next day. He claimed that if xzavier flips town, aqua gets voted, and if he flips scum, i get voted. What happened to Alakaslam?
His Aqua case: He seems to be tunneling aqua now (again?) with an updated case. A lot of it seems very nit picky. but i still come back to one thought... What about Alakaslam? I understand that reads change over time, but onegu went from voting aqua to alakaslam and now back to focusing on aqua. Why isnt alakaslam a priority target now? Unless i missed a post buried in the 6 pages of thread i caught up on. I am ok voteing alakaslam but I dont think he is that much of a threat to town, my 2 other scum reads by thier playstyle are more dangerous to town.
What about their playstyles makes them more dangerous?
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On June 27 2013 01:13 Chromatically wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 01:00 Spicydinosaur wrote:On June 27 2013 00:47 Chromatically wrote:About SpicyIt's hard to tell if his reasons for not voting Xzav are legit, given that I disagreed with them. They could be real or artificial as far as I can tell, I can't get anything from that. What I don't like (and this is a general statement about Spicy, Stim, and Onegu) is that when your vote is not on a leading wagon, you should be doing your ABSOLUTE BEST to push your read. This is especially true if you have a town read on the leader. A townie would do everything that they can to prevent a mislynch.Spicy defends Xzav a little, but then drops it with this post: On June 26 2013 09:21 Spicydinosaur wrote:On June 26 2013 09:11 Chromatically wrote:
Spicy and hz, did you read my case? It didn't convince you at all?
And if you put your vote on someone random, and then don't push their lynch at all, you are wasting your vote. I read it and wasnt convinced. I had spent most of my time after the case posted defending my defense of Xzavier and then had work. I did update the case based off of his then vote on stim. No one else has commented on my case and 1/2 the thread thinks im scum for defending xzavier so theres nothing i can do at this point. I'd like your comment on my case. He backs off of defending Xzav because "1/2 the thread thinks im scum" for it. This is a clear exaggeration. At most, ONE person had called him scum for defending Xzavier. Is this overstatement a sign of a scum persecution complex? Maybe. I also really don't like how he gave up on Xzav so easily. Maybe it's just a playstyle difference, but if I think someone is about to be mislynched, I would be posting a TON, urging voteswitches, and aggressively trying to move the lynch. That last part you quoted was in reference to pushing hurricane, not defending xzavier as the previous sentence was talking about hurricane's case. Immediately after i posted a defense of xzavier i got replies from you, lone, onegu, and tofu. Perhaps its because i was on the defensive most of D1 so the quick replies by a bunch of people got me into that feeling. I tried my best to counter but it went nowhere. My defense of xzavier was based off of meta, and people didnt agree with it, so what else could i have said? I would just be repeating myself. It feels weird that it looks scummy that i didnt defend xzavier enough and yet i look scummy for tofu for defending too much (or at all). Also please look at my recent post about tofu about not pushing scum reads. Was your townread on Xzav solely based on meta? The problem that Tofu and I have with your defense of Xzav is the same. A Townie would: 1) Vote Xzav if they think that he's scum. 2) Vote someone else and push them really hard if they think that Xzav is scum, but someone else is worse. 3) Defend Xzav really hard if they have a townread. Scum would: 4) Sheep onto Xzav if the wagon is going to fail. (Already talked about this, this didn't happen) 5) Defend Xzav a little, but not enough to move the vote, for town cread.Your defense of Xzav looks much more like Scum option 5 than it does Townie option 2 or 3 because you weren't pushing Sponge hard and you didn't defend Xzav hard. You're defending Xzav just enough to look good after the flip, but not enough to actually move the lynch.
It was meta combined his play during D1. After the last game he was quite upset with himself for his bad reads and was going to be more cautious about them. Thats what convinced me. It wasn't a strong case defending him since it was meta based and didnt make sense from a scum point of view. Last newbie game i defended a townie that looked scummy but i stated it didnt make sense from a scum perspective for him to act like that. Similar reasoning here with the added meta.
Also if I were scum why would i expose myself this much when the sure fire easiest thing to do is to just move onto xzavier with you and others posting cases about his play in this game? I truly thought he was town and had no reservations about going against the town sentiment. If i voted xzavier would anyone even bat an eye at me right now (except for tofu)?
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On June 27 2013 01:23 Chromatically wrote:
Spicy, I think that Tofu's actions around the lynch were fine.
He thought that you were scummier, but after pushing you he saw that no one else was willing to vote you.
Instead of wasting his vote on someone who wouldn't be lynched (you), he moves to his second-best scumread (Xzav).
please look at what i wrote again. It is clear he said his second best read was stim
On June 26 2013 01:03 FirmTofu wrote:
I've skimmed through the thread to get a handle on where people are leaning.
Scenario 1: Xzavier is town
Mafia should be distancing themselves from the lynch and somewhat defending him.
Scenario 2: Xzavier is mafia
Mafia should be vehemently arguing in his defense while also trying to distance themselves from him. It's a balancing act that is hard to do.
Keep an eye out for people who fall into the latter category for now.
On another note, I agree with Hurricane that StiM is the best lynch for today. However, letting Aqua die is simply not an option. We only lynch StiM if we know we can get enough votes.
He then does nothing with trying to get stim lynched and just sheeps onto xzavier.
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On June 27 2013 02:14 FirmTofu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 01:47 Chromatically wrote:On June 27 2013 01:31 Spicydinosaur wrote:On June 27 2013 01:23 Chromatically wrote:
Spicy, I think that Tofu's actions around the lynch were fine.
He thought that you were scummier, but after pushing you he saw that no one else was willing to vote you.
Instead of wasting his vote on someone who wouldn't be lynched (you), he moves to his second-best scumread (Xzav). please look at what i wrote again. It is clear he said his second best read was stim On June 26 2013 01:03 FirmTofu wrote:
I've skimmed through the thread to get a handle on where people are leaning.
Scenario 1: Xzavier is town
Mafia should be distancing themselves from the lynch and somewhat defending him.
Scenario 2: Xzavier is mafia
Mafia should be vehemently arguing in his defense while also trying to distance themselves from him. It's a balancing act that is hard to do.
Keep an eye out for people who fall into the latter category for now.
On another note, I agree with Hurricane that StiM is the best lynch for today. However, letting Aqua die is simply not an option. We only lynch StiM if we know we can get enough votes. He then does nothing with trying to get stim lynched and just sheeps onto xzavier. Oh yeah, that's a good point that I missed. Just a few posts later he says: + Show Spoiler +On June 26 2013 02:01 FirmTofu wrote:
Even now, it is still possible that Xzavier lives because we only have 5 votes. We should try convincing hzflank or Alakaslam to switch their votes.
As I suspect the Mafia team is as follows...
Xzavier
SpicyDinosaur
Onegu
They are trying not to make it obvious that they want to keep Xzavier alive. You can see how they are frantically looking for other scapegoats to shift attention off of Xzavier, but don't have much of a case.
Furthermore, my preliminary assessment of Alakaslam speaks to an SK mindset. I will go into further detail when it becomes applicable on Day 2. Stim isn't even in his proposed scumteam. Tofu, can you clarify this situation? Ah, of course. What happened was that I wanted Hurricane to switch his vote from StiM to Xzavier so that Aqua(who i had a stong town read on) wouldn't die. I was also very wary of StiM regardless because he was lurking hardcore. To win Hurricane over to our side, I got on his level. Obviously, I wasn't bein completely honest when I said StiM was the best lynch, but I knew that Aqua couldn't be allowed to die and this was my tactic to save him.
So you admit you are a liar. Scummy as hell.
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On June 27 2013 02:54 FirmTofu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 02:36 Spicydinosaur wrote:On June 27 2013 02:14 FirmTofu wrote:On June 27 2013 01:47 Chromatically wrote:On June 27 2013 01:31 Spicydinosaur wrote:On June 27 2013 01:23 Chromatically wrote:
Spicy, I think that Tofu's actions around the lynch were fine.
He thought that you were scummier, but after pushing you he saw that no one else was willing to vote you.
Instead of wasting his vote on someone who wouldn't be lynched (you), he moves to his second-best scumread (Xzav). please look at what i wrote again. It is clear he said his second best read was stim On June 26 2013 01:03 FirmTofu wrote:
I've skimmed through the thread to get a handle on where people are leaning.
Scenario 1: Xzavier is town
Mafia should be distancing themselves from the lynch and somewhat defending him.
Scenario 2: Xzavier is mafia
Mafia should be vehemently arguing in his defense while also trying to distance themselves from him. It's a balancing act that is hard to do.
Keep an eye out for people who fall into the latter category for now.
On another note, I agree with Hurricane that StiM is the best lynch for today. However, letting Aqua die is simply not an option. We only lynch StiM if we know we can get enough votes. He then does nothing with trying to get stim lynched and just sheeps onto xzavier. Oh yeah, that's a good point that I missed. Just a few posts later he says: + Show Spoiler +On June 26 2013 02:01 FirmTofu wrote:
Even now, it is still possible that Xzavier lives because we only have 5 votes. We should try convincing hzflank or Alakaslam to switch their votes.
As I suspect the Mafia team is as follows...
Xzavier
SpicyDinosaur
Onegu
They are trying not to make it obvious that they want to keep Xzavier alive. You can see how they are frantically looking for other scapegoats to shift attention off of Xzavier, but don't have much of a case.
Furthermore, my preliminary assessment of Alakaslam speaks to an SK mindset. I will go into further detail when it becomes applicable on Day 2. Stim isn't even in his proposed scumteam. Tofu, can you clarify this situation? Ah, of course. What happened was that I wanted Hurricane to switch his vote from StiM to Xzavier so that Aqua(who i had a stong town read on) wouldn't die. I was also very wary of StiM regardless because he was lurking hardcore. To win Hurricane over to our side, I got on his level. Obviously, I wasn't bein completely honest when I said StiM was the best lynch, but I knew that Aqua couldn't be allowed to die and this was my tactic to save him. So you admit you are a liar. Scummy as hell. Lying is definitely not a scum tell. Read the mafia guide by Ver. Show nested quote +On August 26 2010 13:08 Ver wrote:
Also, this is a good point to address the misconception that 'lying=mafia,' which is clearly not the case. I lie all the time as town, and much more rarely as mafia. Some may condemn this as inferior play, but lying, among other 'anti-town plays,' lets you open new routes of play that are ordinarily inaccessible if you behave as a 'perfect townie.' Most of the time you have to take a risk if you want to win. Of course the execution is everything, as lying for no gain is just going to make it harder for the town to do anything. And of course, many town players will lie on accident, without reason, or for some bizarre reason or another that you have no way of knowing. A point that will be emphasized continuously is the necessity to differentiate between mafia and bad townie play. You can't just lynch people and when they pop green excuse yourself by saying 'oh they were anti-town anyways.' The goal is to kill mafia, period.
Its a scum tell in this situation. Why would you need to lie in order to secure their votes? there were already cases against xzavier that you decided not to push. Instead u had to make up lies to get people over. Why was is it so important to lie to lynch Xzavier if his lynch was such a sure thing? You pushed hard for his lynch in a very deceitful way.
Also given the fact that you are refusing to look at people who actually voted to to kill xzavier means u dont want people to look at you. You talk so much now how it was obvious that xzavier was going to be lynched, yet there was a time the vote was 3-3, and then later 4-4. Not at all clear cut. But you keep deflecting away from yourself at every possible turn.
You have yet to comment on how bad your logic was with xzavier and I being scum buddies and your overall play during the lynching period.
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Also everyone please look at what i wrote about tofu and give me your opnions on it. Its on page 38, below the picture. 2 parts to it because of bad editing.
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On June 27 2013 06:25 FirmTofu wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 26 2013 20:58 Onegu wrote:Going to make a case on FirmTofu also as looking over his filter looks scummy also. Show nested quote +On June 24 2013 11:15 FirmTofu wrote:Scum Hunt Day 1:On June 24 2013 10:59 Chromatically wrote:
hey guys Analysis: Trying to appear friendly with an innocuous greeting. Seems to project an air of insecurity. Preliminary Conclusion: Scum On June 24 2013 11:01 StiMaDDict wrote:
so it begins.. Analysis: Neutral statement of fact. Preliminary Conclusion: Need more information. On June 24 2013 11:02 Spicydinosaur wrote:
Hey everyone Analysis: Exudes power with strong capitalization techniques along with a greeting. Preliminary Conclusion: A leader with a powerful role. On June 24 2013 11:03 Xzavier wrote:
Spicy <3 hello again. Analysis: Trying to establish a connection with a player that he has interacted with prior to this game. A metagaming, manipulative sort of move. Preliminary Conclusion: Scummy On June 24 2013 11:04 Chromatically wrote:
Why so scummy, Spicy? Analysis: First baseless accusation. As the old chinese proverb states, "He who smelt it, dealt it." Preliminary Conclusion: Scum Suggested Lynch: Chromatically His first post is nothing, it doesnt promote a good town atmosphere nor does it get anyone to defend themself as the cases are just BS. Show nested quote +As an aside, I would prefer if the accusations remained within the confines of this game and this game only. That is to say, judging people on the differences between their past games and this one is a rather boring way to play the game. Again this is jsut posting about a discussion we were haveing and posting something on it but not actually giving a good reason. Sorry it is boring is not a legitimate reason to do or not do something in mafia. As I am about to go to bed, I would like to go ahead and##Vote: fyfy because he is the only person who hasn't spoken yet. Keep your eye on Stim and Meow as well because they are lurking, especially Stim. Show nested quote +As I am about to go to bed, I would like to go ahead and##Vote: fyfy because he is the only person who hasn't spoken yet. Keep your eye on Stim and Meow as well because they are lurking, especially Stim. Such a wierd choice on who to vote but more on this in a moment. Show nested quote +It wasn't pure spam, and I certainly hoped it would generate discussion. I knew I could not really say anything of substance at that point, so I decided to do something fun that would get people talking. I see absolutely nothing wrong with that. When you look at this post and contrast it to some first few posts, you can clearly see that singling me out as a target is rather silly.
But it was pure spam, when you say it was something fun that means it is spam. Show nested quote +Just because Stim seems scummier than fyfy doesn't mean fyfy shouldn't be voted. I wanted fyfy to talk and I wanted to draw attention to him. That was the reason for my vote. Nothing more, nothing less. We can address Stim now that I am awake. But why try to get someone who hasnt talked at all to try to talk? Someone who you know has posted and is most likely to post again is a much better choice to pressure, unless of course you dont want them to have to talk more... Show nested quote +I almost agree with everything you said. The problem arises when you realize that the case you've made for aqua is a hell of a lot stronger than the case you've made for Chromatically. Is this something you have overlooked? Or are you deliberately weaving a story to pit town against one another? For the time being, it's hard to tell one way or the other, but I did enjoy reading. So you agree with almost everything? Show nested quote +Regardless, I see your story as a plausible conspiracy theory, at best. Acting upon it without further evidence is dangerous. Most of your post relies on speculation about the player's true motives. Show nested quote +I agreed with it in the sense that it was a plausible theory, not that it was particularly likely. For the record I have you both pegged as town and I think you are both wasting precious time accusing one another. His conspiracy idea arose mainly because you accused him of being scum. I see his post as a long-winded retaliation against your credibility to ensure that no one bandwagons him to oblivion. You agree with almost everything but its just plausable and you have town reads on both of them. What a quick backpeddle there, why so fast? Show nested quote +3) You defended fyfy while accusing me of not voting for Stim instead of fyfy. There was no reason to say that when both were perfectly good lurker targets that were largely interchangeable. But there was a big differance and in no way were they interchangeable as all you have to do is look at the ammount of posts they have had. Show nested quote +3) My point is your reason is stupid. What difference does one line of posting make? Seriously? Accusing me of being scum based on one line that someone else wrote? It makes a HUGE difference that one line means you know someone has posted and more likely to post again, while you do not know if the other will post or not. Show nested quote +2) For fyfy, I still hold that there is no difference between the lurkers and you claimed that there is a difference. I think your reasons for claiming that there is a difference are stupid and make no sense because only one line separated one from the other. Why do you continue to defend fyfy? It's quite intriguing. Why do you keep on there is no difference when there is one and spicy wasnt the only one to point it out, with fyfy fliping green this becomes much more relevant. Show nested quote +I would remind everyone of the voting rules.Voting rules:Voting is done in this thread. You cannot PM me your vote.Please vote in the following format: ##Vote: Qatol. Votes not done in the correct fashion may not be counted. Vote counts will be updated whenever intermittently.No conditional voting.You may vote for yourself. You may not vote for anyone dead or outside the game.In the event of a tie the person with the most votes first wins (or loses).You may vote for a No Lynch in the format: ##Vote: No LynchVoting is mandatory. You may NOT abstain.If you do not think Chromatically is scum, then please vote either 1) No lynch or 2) Someone else.In the event of a tie, the person who gets voted up first, dies.
Why post this all it is is fluff and takes up space. Show nested quote +Sounds great! Could you consider looking through Xzavier's filter and reading Chromatically's case against Xzavier and consider voting for him? I would be willing to take you off my scum list if you would do that. So you are happy at first with my statement what changed? Show nested quote +I concur. The Xzavier lynch didn't actually have the highest chance of flipping scum for me; however, it definitely provided invaluable information that we can use throughout the game. I'm glad to see we agree. So you blast me for saying I have a better read on alakaslam but not voteing him then when I do vote him I am scum, but you didnt think the xzavier lynch didnt have the highest chance to flip scum? And me saying before the lynch I am ok with either lynch because the xzavier lynch gives town the most information, but when you say the same thing after the lynch that is perfectly ok? REALLY? Show nested quote +I disagree. vigi should shoot the target most likely to flip scum, and that is most definitely Onegu at this point.P.S. I wouldn't mind Spicy either *wink wink* Directing blue roles is bad and wrong dont do it. Show nested quote +So Alakaslam, if you want to clear yourself in my eyes, you are going to have to vote Onegu. That is the only way I can know for sure that you guys aren't on the same team. If he flips town(which is extremely unlikely), you are cleared of all blame.If he flips scum, you will be scrutinized, but I will take some time to reconsider because you did vote for him.Voting for Onegu is a win-win situation for you if you are town. The only reason you wouldn't vote him would be if you are scum.The ball is in your court.
This is bullying you say if you dont vote how I want you to then you are scum and I will come after you also. Show nested quote +Bullying? I don't see how this is bullying at all. I'm giving him a choice that he can choose to accept or not and I letting him know the consequences of his decision. If he doesnt make the choice you want him to then there will be consequences is the definition of bullying. Show nested quote +Also, Onegu isn't being pro-town by calling me scummy. He's being anti-town. Almost all of town agrees that I have been one of the most pro-town players this entire game. Where are these people and I would ask them to look at your filter again and go ahead and say you are one of the most pro-town people in this game. You have tunneled spicy, xzavier and me and havent done much else other than bully alakaslam andmpost fluff. And when Xzavier flips town you say you didnt even expect him to flip scum. Here is the post accusing me of everything and anything Onegu could get his hands on. Although I have addressed nearly all of his points in various posts, I will condense it and address each one in detail here so that you only have at one place to read all of it. Onegu and Spicy's Point 1: FirmTofu made a scummy first post that detracted from the quality of the thread. My Defense: If anything, I made some good cases against people who had already talked based on what I knew at the time. Look at the other posts in the first few hours of day 1. Are any of those similarly fluffy? Is mine somehow more filled with fluff than any of those? Honestly, at that point, what do you expect me to say? Onegu and Spicy's Point 2: FirmTofu doesn't want us to discuss metagaming and is therefore scummy. My Defense: I don't want to discuss metagaming because I am philosophically against it. If you look at any of my other games, I have not once discussed previous games to influence the ongoing one(Oh, the irony is strong with me). Onegu and Spicy's Point 3: FirmTofu voted fyfy instead of StiMaDDict who had posted once in the thread. Voting someone who hasn't talked(fyfy) when you see that there is someone who has talked(StiM but has lurked is scummy because StiM actually has a chance of responding. My Defense: I voted fyfy because he hadn't posted. I wanted him to post. I also wanted StiM to post, in fact, I told everyone to keep an eye on him. The only reason I didn't vote StiM as well is because I can't actually vote twice. To say it is scummy to vote for one guy who I thought was scummy instead of the other guy I thought was scummy is ignorant. I would have voted for both if I could have. Onegu and Spicy's Point 3: FirmTofu agreed with hzflank's theory that Aqua and Chromatically were secretly working together, but then quickly backpedaled and said he didn't think it was likely. My Defense: I didn't backpedal. I articulated my thoughts on the matter through a series of posts. My statement was that hzflank's theory was plausible, but unlikely. I never deviated from that line of reasoning. My first post says that I almost agree with all of his reasoning because I knew it was a possible scenario. My later posts explain that even though it is possible, it's very unlikely to be true. Even hzflank admitted later that his theory wasn't likely to be true. Was he backpedaling too, why do you think he is free of blame? Onegu and Spicy's Point 4: FirmTofu blasted Onegu about the fact that he didn't get on the Xzavier lynch and instead voted for Alakslam, but now FirmTofu is still accusing Onegu as scum when he didn't vote for town-flipped Xzavier. My Defense: You are taking the situation out of context and making it sound like I had the same beliefs at both times. Pre-lynch, I was under the assumption that Xzavier would flip mafia, therefore I thought you were mafia for avoiding lynching him. It looked like you were trying to save your mafia buddy, so I called you out on that. Post-lynch, circumstances changed. As I have explained numerous times, your actions of voting Alakslam (to make yourself appear as though you are town by not voting Xzavier who you know is town) and your statement of apathy is what convinced me that you are scum. Onegu and Spicy's Point 5: FirmTofu lied to Hurricane to get Hurricane to vote for Xzavier. My Defense: I lied to ensure that Aquanim would not get lynched. If you recall correctly, my first choice lynch was actually Spicy and the only reason I ever switched to Xzavier was because no one was backing me up and my vote was essentially useless. I agreed many town members that Xzavier was scummy based on numerous points, so I decided he would be a decent person to lynch and get some information on. Remember, I had to defer to a sub-optimal lynch! All the other points don't amount to much and just aim to hurt my town cred. If there is anything specific I haven't addressed, please let me know.
Why the hell are you saying onegu and me when i didnt even raise some of these points against you? I have never said anything on 3 and 4. Your constant manipulation to try to lump us together is absurd. As is the way you misconstrue or even ignore my other against you.
Here is where you tried to lump xzavier and i together because he wouldnt vote for me. Please respond to what i posted in reply that you completely ignored.
Show nested quote +On June 25 2013 16:35 FirmTofu wrote:
The fact that you are willing to change your vote to Alakazam but not Spicy is rather arbitrary. When facing death, a townie would be willing to change his vote to anyone to stay alive. You have sealed your fate in my eyes with this response and have furthered confirmed my suspicions of Spicy.
As it seems very few people agree with my suspicions of Spicy, I will defer to a sub-optimal lynch of you.
##Unvote: SpicyDinosaur
##Vote: Xzavier The two people who have the most votes are xzavier and aqua. If xzavier wanted to stay alive then he would keep his vote on aqua, otherwise his own chance of being lynched goes up if he takes it off. The fact that he's willing to take his vote OFF of the other major lynch candidate and onto another he thinks is scummy shows that he is scum hunting a little. Though were his vote ultimately ends up is the real indicator. I also dont get how him not voting for me makes him scummier now. No one else in the thread bought your argument against me, yet Xzavier is the only one to receive your wrath for doing so? It looks like you are trying to make arbitrary reasonings to reinforce your vote like you did with me.
Pure manipulation at its finest. Here is what i wrote about his fyfy vote and i never claimed it was scummy, just bothering me.
Lastly his vote on fyfy has been bugging me. It is clearly a pressure vote to get him active but why target fyfy over stim? Stim actually posted at the beginning of the day right after the day post, then dissipated. He was there reading the thread but not actively posting. This seems scummier than fyfy at the moment.
Also in regards to your point 2: Your refusal to look at meta narrows your evidence. That is a fact. You can argue how useful it could be. But when you say that im overly defensive and its scummy... but it could be explained by personality, and you wont look at meta, which would BACK UP the personality, you refuse. That is just unwillingness to look at evidence.
Last question for you tofu... Why didnt you come forward to the town after your lie to explain what you did? why did u hide it if you are town?
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For the 3rd time quoting... THIS. There is no way you didnt see that in the previous posting.
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On June 25 2013 16:35 FirmTofu wrote:
The fact that you are willing to change your vote to Alakazam but not Spicy is rather arbitrary. When facing death, a townie would be willing to change his vote to anyone to stay alive. You have sealed your fate in my eyes with this response and have furthered confirmed my suspicions of Spicy.
As it seems very few people agree with my suspicions of Spicy, I will defer to a sub-optimal lynch of you.
##Unvote: SpicyDinosaur
##Vote: Xzavier
The two people who have the most votes are xzavier and aqua. If xzavier wanted to stay alive then he would keep his vote on aqua, otherwise his own chance of being lynched goes up if he takes it off. The fact that he's willing to take his vote OFF of the other major lynch candidate and onto another he thinks is scummy shows that he is scum hunting a little. Though were his vote ultimately ends up is the real indicator.
I also dont get how him not voting for me makes him scummier now. No one else in the thread bought your argument against me, yet Xzavier is the only one to receive your wrath for doing so? It looks like you are trying to make arbitrary reasonings to reinforce your vote like you did with me.
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On June 27 2013 07:40 Hurricane Sponge wrote:
I'm starting to think that you two don't like each other very much.
@Spicy what's your secondary read? There are still 3 mafia out there, you can't possibly think Tofu is the only one.
If you got Tofu lynched and he flipped town, what would your next move be?
If you got Tofu lynched and he flipped scum, what would your next move be?
I've been tunnelling tofu, perhaps too much right now, so i really havn't look at anyone else recently. I do want to look at everyone who voted xzavier because im pretty darn sure at least one scum was on him. I dont want to speculate too much on a tofu flip, all i know is that if he flips town im dead next as we were at each other the most. Beyond that i really dont know right now.
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@tofu: thank you for the explanation, i have nothing more to complain about for the time being.
@hurricane: good point. Will be filter diving and hopefully post some constructive thoughts before the end of night.
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Here are some thoughts on a few players, tried not to quote too much so it wouldn't be too long.
Stim
Stim is playing similar to how he did last game, which to put it simply, wasn't helpful. He only has 1 read and its on aqua. His argument can be boiled down to three points: 1. Aqua had a bad policy argument and contradicted himself. 2. His case on chrom was extremely weak and he backed off chrom rather quickly. 3. He was looking for a lynch target and found it in xzavier. Stim's vote was off wagon so that doesn't tell us much at all.
That's basically all there is to go on. We don't know a hell of a lot about him other than the above. So with that he could easily be a lazy townie or deliberate scum. I also dont know if a pressure vote would work on him if he only checks the forum at the last second. It is really a coin flip with him. As others have said, decent vig target.
Lone
One of the lesser active posters. He was on xzavier from the beginning and looked at xzavier's meta like i did, but came up with the opposite conclusion. He stayed on xzavier and defended his decision against me. He was actively answering questions around the lynch time. He's playing similar to his last game where he came in late and got a townie lynced, but ended up being town himself. Null/town read but hasnt really done anything bad yet. Would like to see more discussion.
Alakaslam
I feel he is closest to chaos incarnate. I think it is a deliberate play to be so utterly confusing for the most part that neither town nor scum would want to kill him. His first day of post was useless as he himself put it. His switch from voting aqua to xzavier is what's interesting.
On June 25 2013 21:49 Alakaslam wrote:Scum reads? Finally got one: Aquanim. Haven't read filters, haven't got a case, just want to contribute a skimmer's gut feeling before possible drasticness. Take it or leave it, especially as I must sleep as checkout is 1 pm and I checked In at a defeated 4:30. Fail at job, fail here but there is always another game  and the farm will irrigate again in a week or less. ##Vote: Aquanim
and then the unvote
On June 26 2013 03:52 Alakaslam wrote:
Hey had some sleep now sorry for being a melodramatic asshole, you guys are right. I am still decidin between bandwagons, and will EXPLAIN my choice when I make it, promise.
## Unvote: Aquanim
and then the vote on xzavier
On June 26 2013 10:11 Alakaslam wrote:ok. Thanks. Then I like your Filter. Reading filters is so liberating! I now see both sides, as I have read Xzavier's filter, and thought he was town, because all I saw was pro-Xzavier posts (duh). Now, having read Aquanim's case AGAINST him, I go back to what I thought before, except with this: Xzavier, sorry. Nothing you can do to get this off your back. ##Vote: XzavierI was a little suspicious of Onegu. So he's my next "Scum" read, but really my read is neutral toward him. He DID clean up my [expletive], after all. Nice to be at home/work pc again. Will keep reading filters, "so this is how you people make cases"....  diz my play diz game yall duh hurdurr ^^
His later stuff dealing with onegu feels like he has this weird feeling that onegu is bad and was just waiting for someone to make a case on him. Either that or he's just trying to get an early start on the sheeping.
So in summary, as xzavier turned out to be a townie, im more inclined to think he is null/scummy. Could very well be noob town. But the amount of chaos in his post feels calculated.
I wouldn't want to lynch him but try to get a more active discussion out of him.
Aquanim
I completely disagreed on his early policy of having the NN claim and his voting of chrom felt very premature. He talks about policy while his vote is on chrom and doesnt seem to be scum hunting anyone else, as he mostly just asks others what they are thinking. I also think he went on a little too long with the whole NN issue as he didnt scum hunt as much during it. His vote on xzavier felt very "you voted for me, well screw you back." Xzavier wasn't really on his radar till the vote and then he went all out on him. His arguments did feel genuine and has been active in discussions. Town read.
Hurricane
He was changed the most from when i voted him. I still stand by my vote at the time but his subsequent posts have been extraordinarily better and i have a town read on him now.
Chrom:
Had an early town read on him up until the vote. he went all out on the xzavier lynch and ended up being wrong. Still think he is towny, but lately it seems he isnt really reading cases/opnions as much. When i posted about tofu about his voting, Chrom completely excused it. I had to re-quote something that was very troubling about tofu. Only after that did he really take a look, which then led to Tofu explaining his lie. Still town in my eyes but got some issues.
Onegu: already posted about him but just want to reiterate that i didnt like his vote switch and will sheep other's concerns on the apathy issue. null read
I'm going out for the rest of the night so If im still alive i'll be on in the morning.
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EPT
