[N] Sicilian Mafia Style
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FirmTofu
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FirmTofu
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Hey y'all! I know I've been waiting for this game for a long time and I'm sure you all have as well. This game is somewhat non-standard, so there are a few things I'd like to address before we get started. On May 29 2013 12:27 Ver wrote: This is a closed setup Because this setup is closed, we have to make sure we do not make any unnecessary assumptions that center around speculation about the roles. Speculation is largely a waste of time given the amount of information provided in the OP, so we should stick to the basics. Additionally, we definitely should not be directing blue roles that we aren't even sure exist. Big Plays: If you think of some mastermind play that you think will fool mafia and confuse them, please don't use it. As brilliant as your plan may be, a closed setup has too many variables to account for and your plan could potentially confuse the town more than the mafia. Lying: If you are town, DO NOT lie. If all of town follows this rule, we can separate town and mafia into two distinct categories, liars and non-liars, respectively. We can lynch liars without fear of them flipping town AS LONG AS every town member strictly adheres to this rule. The Traitor: On May 29 2013 12:27 Ver wrote: All the town knows is this: 5 Mafia 1 Traitor 5 mafia, 1 traitor. Anyone up for some math? 5/24=0.20833333333 (5+1)/24=0.25 The one traitor adds about 4% to the strength of the team. As the game progresses, the denominator gets lower. Assuming we don't get insanely lucky, the percentage of mafia will increase over time. The influence of the traitor will start to compound and he will become a greater threat. We obviously need to keep an eye out for the traitor, but specifically hunting for him in the early days will be a waste of resources, in my opinion. How to catch the traitor! The traitor might get antsy and try to drop a few hints for mafia to pick up (to try and join them). We need to stay vigilant to find these subtle hints and make sure we call them out as soon as we see them. PMs: I'm thinking that we should choose our best town reads as PM targets. I'm somewhat unfamiliar with this mechanic, so if a more experienced player can give his thoughts about it, that would be great. This goes without saying, but remember to choose your pm targets wisely! This means NOT wasting both of your choices on Day 1 based on weak reads. Post Count Limit: We have a moderately strict 20 post limit during day. This means absolutely NO one-liner posts. Try to make longer posts that include multiple quotes. Respond to multiple points simultaneously. If you want to give your reads, do it all in one post. We need people to also save posts to ensure they can respond to accusations should they be accused. Plan ahead. Most of this stuff should be obvious, so I'm not going to beat a dead horse. Alright, that's all I've got for now. Let's have a good, clean game. GL HF! | ||
FirmTofu
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On July 16 2013 13:16 Oatsmaster wrote: In other news, Firmtofu pre typed that and its not alignment indicative. I didn't. I typed it up after the game started and I read my role. I don't think it makes any difference either way. It should not be considered alignment indicative regardless. On July 16 2013 13:17 Hapahauli wrote: 1) What are your views on PM usage? How and when should they be used? 2) Are there any policy lynches around the posting-limit we should consider? (i.e. if someone doesn't use all their posts, they get lynched, etc) 3) Who are players you feel you can read very well and reliably in this game? 1) As I mentioned in my last post, I am unfamiliar with this mechanic. I think you should use PMs on your strong town reads. You should give priority to town reads that you personally have that others may not necessarily have. If you fear they will be NK'd, then avoids masoning them IMO. 2) I think the lurker policy lynch is always a good one to consider. Although they may not necessarily be the best lynch, they do serve the purpose of setting up the lategame well. We don't want our endgame to suffer from inactivity and these types of lynches should prevent that. Perhaps we could also consider policy lynching people who repeatedly post one-liners. That sort of behavior is largely non-beneficial and we should send a message to everyone that we are not going to tolerate it. 3) I cannot read any of the players in this game well. I am against the use of meta in general, so even if I could read them based on past play, I would never make a case on them based on it. On July 16 2013 13:22 Oatsmaster wrote: Firm Tofu, why are you even bringing up 'hunting' the traitor? Are there specific traitor tells? What??? No, nothing specific. I'm saying that if you see something suspicious, feel free to bring it up. I wanted to establish an open environment to allow town to speak freely. If anyone has any specific ways to find the traitor, please enlighten us! | ||
FirmTofu
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On July 16 2013 13:43 VayneAuthority wrote: I'm not going to be masoning anyone just as a heads up. Don't like PMs, never have. only post I see as scummy so far is firmtofu's. Dude is like explicitly telling the traitor what not to do in his first post so he doesn't get caught or something. Fishy as hell You actually bring up a very good point. Although it was not my intention to direct the traitor's behavior, this is a potential indirect effect of my post. However, if the traitor avoids dropping clues about his alignment, then wouldn't this hurt mafia? Unless the mafia was more concerned about the traitor's life than one of their own, I think they would be willing to take the risk of having the traitor drop some clues for them to find. On July 16 2013 13:54 DoctorHelvetica wrote: If you don't respond to people who mason you I'm probably going to push your lynch. But you bring up an excellent point. FirmTofu's post is seemingly designed to seem as helpful as possible (to the point that it looks pre-written) but I can't imagine town is very fixated on the traitor at all. FirmTofu, explain what you're thinking and was your post pre-written? Are you just a statistics/setup nerd that always looks at the game that way? I don't necessarily find it extra suspicious that you're describing the ideal play of the traitor, this is certainly something the traitor and everybody else probably knows, but it's the most substantial part of your initial post and it's an alarming fixation. No, I mentioned in my previous post that it was not pre-written. [QUOTE]On July 16 2013 13:48 slOosh wrote: Hey guys. If people are unsure about how to mason, they should just avoid using it. Worst thing we can do is have all the discussion going on in PM land and nothing to go off of someone's alignment other than their mason's read on them. /QUOTE] While Vayne made a personal choice not to mason, you seem to be directing people to avoid using it. Do you have an inherent motivation to discourage people from masoning? A discussion in "PM land" doesn't prevent discussions from happening in thread. I can't see why you would recommend people not to mason at all. | ||
FirmTofu
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On July 16 2013 13:54 DoctorHelvetica wrote: If you don't respond to people who mason you I'm probably going to push your lynch. But you bring up an excellent point. FirmTofu's post is seemingly designed to seem as helpful as possible (to the point that it looks pre-written) but I can't imagine town is very fixated on the traitor at all. FirmTofu, explain what you're thinking and was your post pre-written? Are you just a statistics/setup nerd that always looks at the game that way? I don't necessarily find it extra suspicious that you're describing the ideal play of the traitor, this is certainly something the traitor and everybody else probably knows, but it's the most substantial part of your initial post and it's an alarming fixation. I'm a bit of a statistics buff, so in a way, yes. I don't see why drawing attention to the role would make me mafia/traitor. If anything, scum would be trying to draw attention away from these types of roles. On July 16 2013 14:00 Hapahauli wrote: I think FT is the traitor from that first post. Usually Traitors try to "breadcrumb" their roles somehow in the thread so that they can either communicate with the mafia or be added to the mafia QT (through whatever mechanic). I'm not 100% on the read ofcourse (too early in the game to be certain about that stuff), but it's a remarkably constructed post and one that has a very alarming fixation on a specific role. Otherwise, no scum-reads. You make a valid point, but there is a flaw in this reasoning. As I mentioned in my response to DrH, scum would be trying to avoid drawing attention to their own roles. There is a guilt factor that many scum fall victim to. People who are uncomfortable with lying try to avoid any discussion that could potentially link them to their role. This is my why scum generally try to avoid talking to their teammates in thread and generally avoid talking about their roles. I'm hoping we can move away from this speculative discussion and pursue something more meaningful and concrete. | ||
FirmTofu
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On July 16 2013 14:09 DoctorHelvetica wrote: @FirmTofu, you ignored the important part of my question which means I'm voting for you. Why are you fixated on the traitor right now? We all know what the traitor/should shouldn't do. What the town should do is lynch anyone who plays like scum or plays like the traitor, this is obvious right? But the fact that you're already thinking about the traitor more than anything else is a decidedly non-town way to think. My fixation isn't a fixation. We know 1 thing. There are 6 mafia and 1 traitor. I was drawing attention to the only concrete information that the OP gave us. Would you rather have me talk about easy town cred bullshit that is in all of the guides all over TL? I was offering my perspective into a topic that is specifically relevant to the game at hand instead of reciting standard procedure that town should follow. The fact that I'm thinking about the traitor is far from non-town. Let's address what I actually said shall we? On July 16 2013 13:05 FirmTofu wrote: We obviously need to keep an eye out for the traitor, but specifically hunting for him in the early days will be a waste of resources, in my opinion. I said let's NOT focus our attention on the traitor on the early days of the game because the discussion would be largely unhelpful. This means that I'm not thinking about the traitor more than anything else, in fact, I'm trying to do the exact opposite. I find it rather troublesome that you insist on continuing a discussion on such a speculative topic and would go as far as to place a vote on me for such trivial things. Are you looking for a reason to vote or are you looking for scum? I'll be watching you closely. On July 16 2013 14:17 Oatsmaster wrote: Tofu, have you played with a traitor mechanic before? If so, what did you gain from that? If not, why are you focusing on the traitor? Hapa is playing incredibly oddly. Incredibly. Do you wish for us to lynch the traitor Hapa? Like why would Firmtofu as the traitor talk all about the traitor? Seems a bit obvious. A bit. Also how do you not have at least 1 guy leaning scum. Gut read hapa. GUT. Or do you not have a guy? Everyone, name 1 scumread. OR DIE! No, I have not played with the traitor mechanic on this site before. I have played with it on another site, but it was considerably different. I don't think I can draw parallels between my experience in those games. I'm focusing the traitor for reasons I mentioned in my above responses^. My best scumread is slOosh. He still has not answered my question. Obviously a weak read right now, so take it with a grain of salt. | ||
FirmTofu
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I am confused as to why you pursue Vayne, who made a personal choice not to utilize PMs, but you fail to pursue slOosh, who is making a concerted effort to discourage people from utilizing PMs. This disconnect is indicative between a possible scum team between you two. | ||
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On July 16 2013 14:50 DoctorHelvetica wrote: Hey teambuddy slo0sh, why don't you do this thing and then I'll attack somebody else for doing the same thing then we'll win for sure! I didn't read his post. I would prefer if you wouldn't waste posts to be sarcastic. I would like to draw a bit of attention onto these two scumbags as well. On July 16 2013 12:49 kholly wrote: I think this is trap. Therefore, my day 1 lynch recommendation will be DoctorHelvetica. On July 16 2013 12:35 kushm4sta wrote: sup They pop in, say hi, and promptly leave. I'm left asking, "Why...?" There are still plenty of people who haven't started talking yet, so I'm not going to speculate on their roles. Let's make sure we give everyone some consideration, especially the lurkers. | ||
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On July 16 2013 14:55 DoctorHelvetica wrote: Oh I found his post, yeah he's not saying no one should mason nor is he saying he is refusing to mason which is a really dumb thing to do. Now you're defending Vayne by using misdirection/misinterpretation! Interesting! slo0sh - don't use mason if you don't know what you're doing. I disagree but there have been terrible consequences for this (coagulation claiming medic to me day 1 of Salem Mafia, me outing every single blue to the godfather in the same game, etc.) slo0sh is in the SAME post talking about how PMs are invaluable for forming scumhunting circles which is a townie way of looking at it. A single sentence in a single post being a "concerted effort to discourage PMing" is really REALLY misrepresenting what sloOsh is saying in a completely obvious way. I have so many problems with this post. It is a completely disproportionate reaction to my prod. Let's address the points first. You say I'm defending Vayne. This is not true. I was pointing out the inconsistencies in your behavior. You accuse Vayne, but you aren't addressing a similar scum-tell in another player. This indicates that you are picking and choosing your targets, instead of actually scumhunting. My point had nothing to do with the topic of PM's, I was addressing your behavior specifically and how you are specifically ignoring the slOosh while pursuing Vayne for reasons that should implicate both of them. This post of yours is digging you into a deeper hole. You made a sarcastic post saying you never even read slOosh's post, but you come back and vehemently say he is a town read for you. If you never actually read slOosh's post, why do have such an aggressive, belligerent response to my question? As someone who had never read slOosh's post, you sure sound like you formed a very strong position on him. I find this all too convenient. I think you lied about not having read his post. Am I correct? | ||
FirmTofu
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On July 16 2013 15:36 VisceraEyes wrote: ##Vote: DocHelvetica Every post he makes (and he's made a full 12 of his allotted 20 posts at the time of writing) makes me vomit inside my mouth a little bit. I don't like anything he's doing. He's not pressuring anyone, he's wasting posts throwing shit at Vayne. I don't even know yet what I think about Vayne, but if the remaining 40% of his posts don't blow me out of the water, I want to kill Doc H today. As much as I dislike DrH, this post has absolutely no substance or reasoning. VE needs to explain his reads or he is as scummy as DrH, if not more scummy. On July 16 2013 17:16 Meapak_Ziphh wrote: I'm on my phone so I can't copy paste but a couple posts up this page FirmTofu reponds the correct way to DrH and VE responds to wrong way. Also yamato's last post was absolutely horrible. I will probably use both my masons D1 on people who I feel are town. I'm going to bed now. This is ridiculous. Why is yamato's last post horrible? I thought it was well reasoned and particularly useful in forming a read on DrH. Explain yourself. On July 16 2013 17:23 Oatsmaster wrote: FT's post is totally bullshit. FT says he isnt defending Vayne but slams DrH for the exact same thing he himself is doing.??? He seems overly concerned about people lying. Scumtell because no one intentionally lies and its easier to attack town on a supposed lie and not actual content. Also, he is saying that vayne and sloosh are saying similar things. They arent by far. Sloosh is saying dont use it if you dont know how to. Vayne is saying he WONT use it. Nope, totally different. One is intentionally playing badly(vayne), One is possibly bad advice but with limited masoning, Im inclined to agree with sloosh. I don't think you understood the purpose of my post. I wasn't defending Vanye. I wasn't "slamming" DrH. You are exaggerating my actions and making it sound as if I have DrH pegged as a confirmed scum read and am tunneling him at the time of writing that post. Please explain what it is that I am doing that DrH is also doing. I am pointing out inconsistencies in his behavior and he is defending slOosh and attacking Vayne. Our actions are not even remotely similar. Vayne and slOosh are saying very similar things but there is a subtle difference between their statements. Vayne is making a personal decision not to use PMs and slOosh is directing inexperienced players not to use PMs. While you may think Vayne's play is inferior, you cannot say he is intentionally playing badly. He could just as easily be town and think that PMs will screw up town more than help. That is a perfectly valid opinion for a town member to have. You may agree with slOosh and disagree with Vayne, but your agreement/disagreement tells you absolutely nothing about their alignment. Analyzing opinions is meaningless and that is exactly what you are doing. On July 16 2013 17:28 raynpelikoneet wrote: I think there is something you should all know. I am a pardoner. I tried to think how i could use my power in combination with PM's to it's full benefit and came into conclusion there is no way not to claim will help town. The pardoning can be done vai PM's to the hosts, i don't need to announce it in thread. There is nothing good coming out from me using it, only confusion and distraction, so i will not use my power ever. This makes me think scum have one too. rayn, can you please elaborate on what a pardoner is? I have no idea because I have never played with that role before. On July 16 2013 17:33 Malongo wrote: I cant believe I am the newbie here. ##Vote: Meapak_Ziphh I dont care if you go to bed, and your post was just too polarized for no reason. Another person who just pops in, votes with little to no justification, and leaves. This is getting tiresome. On July 16 2013 21:16 Oatsmaster wrote: wtf is this bullshit. Total fucking retardness. Malongo, Koshi and kholly, start playing the game. Kholly, why is DrH scum? Also there is a voting thread. Malongo, why is MZ being polarizing a scumtell? Koshi, why waste 5% of your limit on a useless post? Absolutely USELESS. Ok so scumteam is probably, VE, sloosh, FT and other dudes. Everyone else that has posted I think is town. Anyone that has strong disagreements for any of my reads, please explain why. You have not explained why anyone you listed is scum for you. You mentioned that, "FT's post is total bullshit", but that's about it. You even said that you agreed with slOosh's point about pms. How can you justify that scumteam considering I've had a row with slOosh already? It looks like you are just trying to accuse random people to establish some town cred. Some of your questions are hypocritical. You haven't really started playing the game and you waste plenty of posts being useless as well. On July 17 2013 00:54 slOosh wrote: I don't think they shouldn't form around one player, it's too easily countered and dangerous if they are scum. I was thinking wheels of, say three players, and then linking the wheels slowly. Still don't understand how you can build circles by masoning only scum reads though. What? I said if people are unsure, they should avoid it because it can cause more problems than be of benefit. How am I making a "concerted effort to discourage people from using PMs"? Show me where I said no one should mason. slOosh responded well to my question and I no longer wish to pursue him. He seems to speaking from opinion and his statements are not alignment indicative. On July 17 2013 03:27 gumshoe wrote: Drh pressured tofu, tofu responded, dry backed off tofu when he was satisfied with his answer. Regardless of what tofu did after these are the facts of drh's actions, drh could have easily left his accusation hanging in order not to look flip floppy. Instead he closed the matter for the moment. Doing so hurts his individual position but it is a boon for town because we're able to scratch off a pointless(from dh,s perspective) argument. This reads townie to me, does it mean he is 100 percent mega town? No of course not, but dropping the accusation seems silly for scum who want as many plot threads as possible And want to come off as strong. I actually see DrH's backing off as more of a scum move than a town one. Scum would be trying not to cause too much waves. They push people to appear townie, then back off if the pressure mounts to a considerable degree and they know they have no chance of winning a lynch on their target. I think this is exactly how DrH is playing the game right now. After having a bit of an argument with me, he decided that it would be difficult to get town to lynch me, so he backed off. Remember, in his pms to Oats he said "FirmTofu is confirmed scum". It sounds like he still wants me dead, but he is lying about how he feels about me so that I will stop pressuring him. I smell fear. I smell lies. I want blood. I want DrH to respond to all of my points against him now. He has been avoiding me for too long and my suspicion is starting to mount. | ||
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On July 17 2013 08:32 DoctorHelvetica wrote: DESPITE THIS - I think it's interesting that you chose to attack me after I defended you and the way you did is making me lean that you are town and this is just a bad misunderstanding, actually. Or I did. But your phrasing is odd in your latest post. It makes it seem like the fact that I backed off AT ALL is scummy to you. Why? Should you always tunnel the first person you vote for 100% of the time? Should you ignore a persons defense under every circumstance? If FT Is town, he knows he is town and he perceives his posts likely to be very townie. If FT defends himself from Player X who then says "ah, the way you defended yourself indicates you're town" why would FT then turn around to say "How suspicious that you think I'm town, you must be scum". If FT truly was town, wouldn't he accept that argument? If Player X (Me in this case) decides his defense is town-indicative (assuming FT is town) then player x is CORRECT and FT should feel as though his argument/defense was a success. Implying that it is scummy to defend you implies INHERENT GUILT. If FT is town then I was CORRECT to back off of him considering he put in the effort to defend himself, there can't possibly be anything scummy about that INHERENTLY but in his latest post he's not even referencing the context of my change of heart he's calling it scummy IN and OF itself. ^ a more succinct way of putting it. I'll wait for FT's explanation of this, because there is another aspect to his attack on me that differs from what Promethelax did although it's getting closer and closer to Prom's confirmed scum arguments so I'll just have to wait. I wasn't accusing you because you were "defending" me. I was accusing you because I found you scummy. I'm sure you would expect me to back off because you backed off, but I didn't because I still had quite a few problems with your posts. This has absolutely nothing to do with inherent guilt. If you still think that, just read my reasons for WHY I'm accusing you and see if they make any sense from a town perspective. Ask yourself whether a townie who believed those points would simply back off just because the person he was accusing stopped accusing him. You still haven't addressed any of the posts where I ask you if you lied. You ignore a great number of my posts indicating you are uncomfortable with talking about them. I suspect that you DID lie, but I remain unsure as to whether you lied as scum or lied as town. I'm running out of posts, so I don't want to waste too many on a back-and-forth between DrH and myself. DrH, did you or did you not lie? If you did lie, explain why. If you didn't lie, explain why you took this long to respond about the lies. Someone who was innocent would not have avoided the question for this long. What is your view on the lying meta as town? Do you think we should policy lynch liars as town? Your answers to this post will determine whether or not my vote stays on you. | ||
FirmTofu
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On July 17 2013 08:56 FirmTofu wrote: DrH, did you or did you not lie? If you did lie, explain why. If you didn't lie, explain why you took this long to respond about the lies. Someone who was innocent would not have avoided the question for this long. What is your view on the lying meta as town? Do you think we should policy lynch liars as town? Your answers to this post will determine whether or not my vote stays on you. On July 17 2013 08:59 DoctorHelvetica wrote: I backed off of you because the only reason I was suspicious of you to begin with was because of your post about the traitor. That is when I backed off. I became suspicious of you later because of your posts regarding sloOsh/other things (this was AFTER I had said your defense about the traitor talk was adequately town) but didn't talk about it in thread because I had already used half my posts. That's not lying. Alright. I think any rational townsperson can see how inadequate DrH's answer is. He didn't answer the majority of the questions. He uses vague terminology like, "other things" to describe why he is suspicious of me. He hasn't even addressed the actual lie(s) that I was talking about. If he wants a chance at redemption, he is going to answer these SPECIFIC questions. Stop avoiding them. 1) Why did you tell Oats, "FirmTofu is confirmed scum." when you backed off of me? We know that you had this conversation after you backed off, but before you started flinging shit at me. I want to know why. 2) Why did you pretend as if you didn't see slOosh's post and then backtrack and defend him as if he was 100% confirmed town? A townie in this position would not be so quick to deduce slOosh's alignment based on one post, so why did you feel the need to defend him so vehemently? On July 17 2013 09:11 raynpelikoneet wrote: Hey FirmTofu, i see a difference in your posting behaviour before and after i posted my logs. Did you or did you not read them before posting after that? If you did not, why? I did not read the logs yet. I am running under a few time constraints so I am trying to choose the posts I read wisely. If I were to read your logs, I would not be able to address DrH's. The logs were rather long, so I figured I would read them later. I am unsure as to what "difference in posting behavior" you speak of, please elaborate. On July 17 2013 09:15 DoctorHelvetica wrote: 100% meta argument citing differences in FirmTofu's townish behaviors in NWM as opposed to this game. I'm not even sure how to respond to this. A good bit of it is just bullshit. I'm not defending myself more than accusing others. That is absolutely false. Just take a leap through my filter to see how many posts focus on accusations and how many focus on defending myself. Even if I were defending myself more than accusing others, I don't see this as particularly alignment indicative. Then he says 70% of a post isn't even about DrH, so it somehow makes me scummy. I fail to see how that's even remotely true. I like to talk about EVERYONE in the game. It isn't scummy to address multiple people in the same post. If anyone takes this meta argument seriously, I will be forced to look into you. This is actually absolutely ridiculous. I will not respond to any additional arguments that center around meta because I am fundamentally against using it to divine alignments. Any good player should know that meta is subject to WIFOM and is nearly always meaningless. | ||
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On July 17 2013 15:41 yamato77 wrote: If you're all just going to ignore VE, I'd be absolutely fine lynching the useless filter of Meapak as well. He's certainly exceptional in how little he's actually playing the game of mafia. This is as close as he comes to actually posting reads. Given the already difficult nature of forming a consensus in a game like this and his rather lackadaisical approach to the game so far, I'm willing to believe he's mafia trying to hide among the other low-content players in the game. Plus, I always love lynching people who call my posts "horrible". I am willing to lynch VE, but I see DrH as the most optimal choice. Can you perhaps look into our conversations with one another and consider it? DrH has still not responded to my questions even though I have explicitly stated what I wanted him to answer. That, in itself, should be reason enough to warrant his lynch. | ||
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On July 17 2013 23:55 marvellosity wrote: Typical I replace in for someone easy to read. I have 15 posts total including this waste of a post, so 14 after. I've not been reading at all yet, so proper posts will come later this evening when I've had time to read and digest. One post that I did read was FirmTofu's large post right at the start of the game. I'm fairly sure Firm did in fact lie at least once as town in his last newbie game, and defended his actions repeatedly in the obsQT of that game. I'm curious to know why the sudden change of heart about not lying as town. Hi marv, great to have you! My views on lying are contingent upon the setup. As this is a closed setup, there are are greater amount of variables that we need to account for. Thus, lying becomes far too problematic to deal with as town. On July 18 2013 04:19 gumshoe wrote: Tofu: We really need to hear about someone other than Dh, what do you think of hapa? Hapa/Marv is completely null to me. There have been few posts to look at, and none of them were alignment indicative. gumshoe, I'd like to know why you're discreetly voting me in the voting thread. I will be voting VE. He hasn't said anything to convince me that he isn't scum and many people share my sentiment of him. He is much more likely to get lynched than DrH and is a far better lynch than slOosh. ##Unvote:DrH ##Vote: VisceraEyes | ||
FirmTofu
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On July 18 2013 06:42 DoctorHelvetica wrote: I'm fairly certain layabout is scum in this game, either that or a blue role playing really scared. It's my policy never to analyze what VisceraEyes is doing. No matter what his role is - I will always come to the conclusion that VE is scum. Every single game I have read (and I have blind read several of his games I have not played with him in) I have come to the conclusion that he is 100% scum without any doubt. My opinion on VE is worthless. I have expressed this sentiment in several games (in which I am town in all of them). So sloOsh is in the hotseat. Fine. I'll look at him in a moment, but I'm not willing to drop it just because town sentiment has changed a little bit. No one cares or should care about your conspiracy theory. You're correct. I rescind my meta argument against FirmTofu because I lost sight of the context. Unlike NWM, he is under direct pressure from me in this game which will of course cause him to act differently. However, I think a few things are important. In NWM, he does a good job sticking to the point. He chooses to come swinging out of the gate with a "megapost" which contains absolutely no useful information. I define useful information as anything that will lead to the lynching of scum. Setup analysis is fine Day 1 because it generates discussion -> discussion leads to finding scum. However there is a particular sort of setup analysis/fluff post that comes out Day 1 that is troubling. That is the sort of post that is designed to portray the poster in the towniest light possible without being actually constructive. Rather than reading into the sort of things being said, it's important to look at the tone. In his attacks on me, he has continually misrepresented/twisted my positions/actions and jumped to conclusions rather quickly. FirmTofu 1. FirmTofu stated that sloOsh was making a consolidated effort to prevent people from PMing. This is false. sloOsh states that people who do not know how to mason constructively, should not do it at all. I do not agree with this point, but it is not a "consolidated effort". It is just sloOsh's position on how PMs should be utilized in a game. I would not be surprised if this is an opinion sloOsh had coming into the game, before he received his alignment. Arguing about this particular statement by sloOsh is absurd. 2. FirmTofu states that by claiming the above point, I am thereby giving a strong townread on sloOsh. Ridiculous. I said what sloOsh said didn't mean anything at all. Later in that post I stated "What sloOsh is doing is townier than what you're doing", directed at FirmTofu. This is not the same as claiming I have a strong townread on sloOsh. FirmTofu jumps illogically at the bait - MEANING he is looking for reasons to attack me rather than finding them naturally. sloOsh at that point, at least had offered some advice on how to PM constructively. FirmTofu had only been talking about the traitor role up until that point. 3. FirmTofu isn't making a real effort to start a bandwagon on me NOR is he posting cases in a constructive manner. Read FirmTofu's first case on me. It's very reactive, filled with misunderstandings and irrelevant information and thoughts on other happenings/players. A strong characteristic of his play in NWM is the surgical manner in which he approachs his scumreads. A huge majority of the content in his cases is filled with quotes from the accused player, he dedicates his entire post to this approach. Rather, he is being far more vague, accusing me of lying without specifying clearly and constructively what my lie is. Imagine you are town and I am scum in this game. You caught me in (apparently) a very obvious lie. What do you do? There is only one answer. Bring down the hammer of justice. There is no way a town FirmTofu isn't trying very hard to get me lynched right now, unless he is scum. I still don't even know what he is accusing me of lying about, which means he is doing a very unconvincing job of demonstrating what exactly I'm doing wrong. His cases in NWN were way more logical than this and I refuse to believe he simply became much much worse as a town player over the course of a week or so. I already explained why I originally stopped attacking FirmTofu and WHY I changed my mind. When I said I thought FirmTofu was town - this was related to him defending the pressure that was on him early in the game (related to his post about the traitor and nothing else). This occurred BEFORE he made a post calling me out for not attacking sloOsh and then both misrepresenting sloOsh AND myself. There is another window of time here that is critical but I need to reconsult filters to make sure I'm not remembering things wrong. <- If this is my "so called lie", then he's full of shit. When he told me that it was suspicious for not attacking sloOsh for discouraging PMing when I had criticized VayneAuthority for that, I told him "I didn't read sloOsh's post." FT claimed I was probably lying. However, I have no way to prove/argue this otherwise. There is nothing I can point to that would somehow prove I did or didn't read sloOsh's post at the time. But this is a shit argument. Regardless of the fact that they were saying completely different things about the PM mechanics at the time, this is a classic mafia tactic. Someone attacks the lurker who is on your team? Ask them why they're ignoring lurker Y and call them scum! These are shit arguments. No one has the diligence to pressure every player in the game at the same time. Yeah but why would a newbie scum like FT even argue with you? Why not? Why would a scum FirmTofu be particularly afraid of me? I can think of several games in where I had drawn out arguments with scum, newer scum, every type of scum. That's more WIFOM than a meta argument. Some wine is easier to drink. In Arkham City Mafia: scum were assigned specifically to attack/annoy me because Radfield knew my style of play. I tend to get either tunnel-vision in these situations, or lose confidence and become ineffective for the rest of the game. If you start to think of the games in these terms, town already lost. Do yourself a favor and google "no true scotsman". Based on this information I'm inclined to believe that sloOsh is the mafia bandwagon. DrH, this is more along the lines of what I was looking for from you. I wanted you to deconstruct my posts and point out exactly was scummy. These points are exactly what I would expect from a town member. When you posted your meta argument, I had to continue pursuing you because you didn't form a case on me based on information gathered within this game. I see meta as an easy cop-out that scum use to form cases on people to discredit them. Although you refused to answer the questions that I have asked you repeatedly and have explicitly stated in numerous posts(there is no ambiguity as to where I believe you lied), I am willing to move you from my list of scum to my list of null reads based on this post alone. Part of my reasoning is that you have slOosh listed as a town read, which I believe is how town would look at slOosh and part of it is because you have deconstructed and analyzed my posts exactly how someone would form a town PoV. Had you made something like this earlier, I would have dropped my case on you immediately. You may continue to pursue me, but consider your own confirmation bias creeping in. Take a step back and analyze my actions from a town perspective, just as I did yours. | ||
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On July 18 2013 07:03 DoctorHelvetica wrote: I just reread your posts and it's absolutely unclear as to what you are accusing me of lying about? You bring up two things: 1. Me saying I didn't read sloOsh's post 2. Me backing off of you both of which I have explained at least three times each now. Why won't you tell me what I'm missing? Okay, I will point out the exact questions that are relevant to the lying. On July 17 2013 10:56 FirmTofu wrote: 1) Why did you tell Oats, "FirmTofu is confirmed scum." when you backed off of me? We know that you had this conversation after you backed off, but before you started flinging shit at me. I want to know why. 2) Why did you pretend as if you didn't see slOosh's post and then backtrack and defend him as if he was 100% confirmed town? A townie in this position would not be so quick to deduce slOosh's alignment based on one post, so why did you feel the need to defend him so vehemently? Expanding on my questions: 1) My gripe was not with you backing off of me. That is not alignment indicative. I had a problem with the inconsistency of you backing off of me and sending Oats an completely different message. It indicated that you were lying. 2) I had a problem with your behavior here. You sounded so confident that slOosh was town after glancing at his post. Why? Only scum could be so certain of such a thing. Considering that was the first time you had ever read slOosh's post, it doesn't really make sense for you to have such a strong reaction if you were town. | ||
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On July 18 2013 07:09 Koshi wrote: FirmTofu Would you say that you are playing different from the Nuclear game? If so, what is different? I would not say I am playing different at all. Stylistically, I am playing exactly the same. I push my reads with no fear. I call people out when I feel that they have inconsistencies in their behavior. Activity-wise, I would say I have been equally active, if not more active in this game specifically. In NWM, I was busy for most of the weekend and there were more posts to read to it was hard to keep up with the thread. In this game, I am able to stay more active and push my reads because I have less catching up to do. I am running out of posts. Could I get a small donation from someone? Thanks! | ||
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On July 18 2013 07:16 Vivax wrote: VE claimed america, he claims dayvigi, so leave him alive, or you're dumb or scum. Enough said, now ladies and gents, please switch to someone like ace. If he truly is dayvigi, why can't we ask him to prove it by shooting a lurker? Why doesn't he shoot Ace? I don't see his role claim absolving anything unless he can prove it. | ||
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On July 18 2013 07:19 marvellosity wrote: I'm not 100% sure I buy Firm's reasoning for switching his stance on lying as town. I don't get why the fact it's a closed setup means that lying is suddenly totally awful, whereas in a semi-open setup you can lie repeatedly. Makes no sense. Further, I don't like how his suspicion of DrH went. By about page 16-17 (I just read the whole game in a row) I was thinking DrH looked really quite town, and Firm's continued suspicion of him seemed pretty off. I also don't like how he's graciously now calling DrH less suspect, without actually responding to DrH's case on him. *Why* is VE a far better lynch than slOosh? This is just saying things. I literally can't see the rationale for slOosh having played so townie (he hasn't) that he's a much worse lynch than VE. . Lying is a matter of opinion, so I don't really care whether you "buy" it or not. I am not responding to DrH's case because it has solid points. I would like to clarify my intentions. Much of my accusations toward DrH were just poking and prodding, trying to elicit some sort of reaction. I tried this on slOosh and I got a town read on him because of it. When I tried it on DrH, I got a completely different response. There were a few inconsistencies in his behavior that I found odd. When he posted his meta case, I was legitimately shocked. I didn't think DrH, whom I consider to a rather rational player, would reek so strongly of confirmation bias. I hold that my play between the two games is stylistically identical, so I found it odd that that was the best argument he could think of to justify a case on me. Because of this, I pursued DrH far longer than I did slOosh. When DrH posted a rational case against me, I saw it as something that a townie would do. The points against me are completely valid and you should all definitely look at them. If you feel I should defend myself from them, then force me to. However, if you have a town read on me, I would rather not waste time defending myself thereby derailing the thread into a conversation about me which will be unproductive in the long-run (considering that I know I am town). On July 18 2013 07:21 DoctorHelvetica wrote: You're being inconsistent, and I've already answered both of these questions. 1. I didn't say that. Oats said I said that. Here is what I said (and I've posted the entire PM logs, another reason I think oats is scum.) Here is what I said: 2. And here is what I said about sloOsh: How could anybody interpret this as a strong townread? But I'm NOT REACTING to his alignment. Strongly. Or otherwise. I'm explaining why what he is doing isn't a "consolidated effort". I mention the word townie ONCE! Scum can easily fake townie perspectives. This hardly counts as a hard and intense reaction. In fact it is much softer and less reactive than your accusation of a "consolidated effort" which is ridiculous considering it is - as you emphasize - a single post. Yet you're calling me a liar here again - How do you know I pretended? You're assuming - confirmation bias - you were told to attack me and need a reason. You're the one that's backtracking. 1. Do you believe I lied about having missed sloOsh's post initially? 2. Looking at those two posts next to eachother, who's the one really having a strong reaction here? Now you're semi-dropping the argument, you won't concede that I'm not a liar or that I'm town but you can't go after me because you don't actually have any ammunition. Weird. That is particularly enlightening information about Oats. I'm going to look through his filter in detail. I am dropping the argument, not semi-dropping it. I won't concede that you're not a liar or that you are town, because you still haven't convinced me. This is a game of probability. You have done a good job of decreasing my suspicions, but I am not willing to rule you out as scum based on one post. You may be unfamiliar with my playstyle, so I will explain. At the beginning of the game, I run through all the posts and try to find the slightest bit of dirt on anyone. I question them about it and if: 1) They fail to respond 2) Give an inadequate answer I will pursue them further. The reason I'm dropping the case on you is because you gave me an adequate answer. The reason I did not drop the case on you until now is because all of your other posts defending yourself were wholly inadequate. | ||
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##Unvote: VisceraEyes | ||
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On July 18 2013 07:52 DoctorHelvetica wrote: That alone is proof to me that you are scum. Will you admit you completely misinterpreted the way I defended sloOsh? You still consider that a really extreme and strong townread? Jesus. I deliberately exaggerated your defense of slOosh in order to poke for inherent guilt. If you respond with, "OF COURSE SLOOSH IS TOWN, HOW COULD HE NOT BE TOWN? LOOK AT HIS POST, JESUS CHRIST! OF COURSE HE'S TOWN." Then I pursue you further. Why? Because scum are more worried about being called liars than they are about their honest motivations. If you respond with, "Yeah, maybe I shouldn't have been so quick to judge slOosh. You're right, he could definitely be either scum or town, but I'm leaning town atm." Then I would have dropped the case immediately. Your reaction to my question was critical to my behavior. I hope you see where I was coming from if you are town. Consider that I currently have a town read on slOosh, who I accused with a similar tactic. There is a reason for this. | ||
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On July 18 2013 08:21 VayneAuthority wrote: I think it's safe to say that DrH and FT are not scum together lol. I actually have town reads on both of you so if you could stop arguing and look at some of the other cases presented that would be great. (hypocrite I know after arguing with DrH) I wish DrH would just drop it. All of this inflammatory posting from him is just pushing him further towards a town read for me. He seems to have some sort of fixation on me because he genuinely believes I am scum. While this unfortunate, I don't think there is anything I can say to convince him otherwise. I will not respond to any of DrH's inflammatory posting because it is starting to be emotional and irrational. If anyone else actually has some problems with me that they would like me to address, I will address them directly. Otherwise, arguing with DrH is a waste of my time and takes away from legitimate scumhunting. On July 18 2013 08:22 Vivax wrote: FirmTofu, your introductory post contained this: I'm expecting you to deliver. Which of the lurkers/ace-style-posters would you pick? Tentatively putting out ace and malongo out there for you to give me an opinion on, would be appreciated thanks. He told me he can only shoot 12 h before lynch, target dies at lynch. Would you take the risk of disrupting a marv-me-VE mason circle and losing a vigi instead of giving him the chance to prove himself tomorrow? At this point obviously you unvoted him, but at the time you had shown reluctance. Here's your fix for your reply, lil junke ##Donate: 1 post to FT I am leaning towards Ace. But honestly, there are plenty of good choices. Ace is someone I know can play a better game than what he's doing now, so I'm inclined to call him out on it. | ||
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On July 16 2013 14:55 DoctorHelvetica wrote: Oh I found his post, yeah he's not saying no one should mason nor is he saying he is refusing to mason which is a really dumb thing to do. Now you're defending Vayne by using misdirection/misinterpretation! Interesting! slo0sh - don't use mason if you don't know what you're doing. I disagree but there have been terrible consequences for this (coagulation claiming medic to me day 1 of Salem Mafia, me outing every single blue to the godfather in the same game, etc.) slo0sh is in the SAME post talking about how PMs are invaluable for forming scumhunting circles which is a townie way of looking at it. A single sentence in a single post being a "concerted effort to discourage PMing" is really REALLY misrepresenting what sloOsh is saying in a completely obvious way. Here is the post that DrH is referring to, if anyone cares to actually read it. He clearly says slOosh has a really townie way of looking at pms. I exaggerated this statement and said DrH had a strong town read on slOosh so as to elicit a response. DrH responded in kind so I pursued him further. DrH's whole case against me rests on the statement that DrH had a null read on slOosh after reading slOosh's post. This is clearly not the case as evidenced by the quoted post. This is the last time I am going to be addressing DrH's case against me before night begins. It has wasted far too many of my posts already. VisceraEyes has still not explained why he claimed and did not prove his role in the face of an imminent lynch. He needs to explain this or my vote will go back to him. In my eyes, VE should be willing to shoot a lurker right now to 1) Confirm his role thus preventing a lynch on a townie 2) Use his vigi shot to eliminate a useless player Such an action would be extremely beneficial and I honestly have no idea why he isn't doing it if he is truly what he says he is. As for the time being, I don't necessarily want to lynch Ace. I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt about him swapping in, but I will hold him accountable during the night phase and beyond. The rest of the lurkers are ultimately a coinflip. There isn't much to go off of, so it would just be insurance against an inactive lategame. I am willing to do this, but I would like everyone to consolidate on one lurker so we can offer a suitable alternative to the VE lynch. Thoughts? I believe this is my last post of the day. I will Vote and Unvote my best reads, but will cease posting. Good luck folks! P.S. DrH is going to swap out of the game when I die. That'll be fun to watch. :D | ||
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On July 18 2013 11:22 VisceraEyes wrote: My claim came after the deadline to choose a target. I cannot choose a target within 12 hours of the lynch. I promise you if I'm still alive tomorrow, there will be fireworks tomorrow night. EVERYONE NEEDS TO GET THE FUCK OFF OF VE NOW. IF HE CAN PROVE HIS ROLE, THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO REASON TO KILL HIM. EVEN SLOOSH WOULD BE A BETTER CHOICE. | ||
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On July 18 2013 11:38 VisceraEyes wrote: Role /= Alignment. Just FYI, Ver is a huge proponent of this axiom and even if I confirm my role that shouldn't confirm my alignment. Just sayin. Regardless, if you have a shot, we can coordinate the target and ensure that someone that should die, actually dies. The shot is the primary reason why your life is more valuable than slOosh's right now. Alright, THIS is my actual last post. | ||
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On July 19 2013 01:33 gumshoe wrote: Wow, so much bad in so few words. 1: Hmm that sounds like a good point, wonder who said that, yeah that was you. And what was Meatpak if not a scummy lurker? He fit your initial preference, whats so scummy about Ve voting for him? Why didnt you consdider doing likewise, you were clearly around during the final hour seeing as you promptly made this jewel of a post. 2: A townie only knows for sure that he is a townie, it is his duty to make sure that he does not get lynched, Meatpak was a viable lynch and would have happened if not for Knolly, are you telling me that if you were in that exact same spot and another likely lynched popped up you would not vote to save yourself? 3: Why are you trying to justify a bad lynch? It happened, it was party your fault yes, but the point is to acknowledge the mistake and see what it means, instead you spend a precious post insulting Ve and defending your own retarded stance. 4: How many times do we need to say this? Ve could have confirmed himself, why would townies feel the need to vote for him right away? Grrrrr scum post detected. Also thanks Marv your the best ( : I don't really need a mason from anyone else anymore. 1) I would have gladly voted Meapak had I known that he was the person with the nighest votes at the time. I thought slOosh was the highest vote count other than VE, so in order to save VE, I voted slOosh. I was also on my phone at the time so it was hard to count up the votes. 2) I have no idea what you are talking about. Please check the vote counts. If VE had voted slOosh, slOosh would have died instead of VE. My statement was just pointing this out. 3) Where am I justifying the bad lynch? I condemn the VE lynch fully and I think we should take a close look at anyone who voted him. 4) That is exactly my opinion. I think you are misinterpreting my position on the whole issue. I was one of the townies who tried to SAVE VE. I voted slOosh, who had the second highest votes at the time. I am going to run through a detailed voting analysis similar to what I did in NWM. I will post it soon. I would like to get people's thoughts on whether I should post a complete list of all my reads. Does anyone think I would be a likely target for scum to kill tonight? | ||
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On July 19 2013 03:48 DoctorHelvetica wrote: @FirmTofu I find it unlikely. In the scenario that we're both town, a continued argument between us is beneficial to scum. Even if you choose to not engage with me, it will keep my attention on you Day 2 which is another day that mafia won't feel any sort of pressure from me. In the scenario that I'm scum and you're town, there's no reason I can't feign contribution by continuing to push you tomorrow. I tend to agree. I don't think I will be killed today because my death would make you useful to town again. On July 19 2013 03:52 raynpelikoneet wrote: FirmTofu why would you not post your reads? I'm starting to see why DrH thinks you are mafia. You are not doing things in "I am helping town" mindset. You are unsure of what you should do, and rather than doing stuff you think is right you ask people if they think it's wise and act accordingly. That's not how a townie thinks. Oh, I didn't mean my scum reads. I am definitely going to post those. I wanted to know if you wanted me to post my town reads or if that would just give scum too much information to work with in the event that I do not die. | ||
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On July 19 2013 03:55 Ace wrote: posting reads for the sake of posting reads and fake contribution points is stupid. If he isn't sure about his thoughts then he shouldn't post. No one is going to read it anyway if he dies. I'll probably investigate him tonight anyway. Did you just claim after shitting on everyone who claimed Day 1? | ||
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Proposed Scum: slOosh kholly layabout Malongo I'm going to start with slOosh because he is the person that holds this proposed scumteam together. Most of my analysis will focus on the concrete information obtained from the last few hours of Day 1 regarding votes. slOosh: slOosh never bothered to defend himself when he was faced with an imminent lynch. Many people came to his defense(me included), with little reasoning to justify his survival. slOosh is a borderline lurker and all he has ever done this game is defend himself. There is absolutely no scumhunting in his filter, just see for yourself. kholly: I think kholly was a significant part of the reason why VE got lynched. By unvoting and voting repeatedly, he confused everyone who was trying to figure out the vote count. He was the only person to waffle between a MZ lynch and VE lynch, indicating that he was apathetic between them. To top it all off, kholly also happens to have a terrible list of proposed scum in: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=414884¤tpage=14#267 He never pushes his reads either. If he truly believed these people were scum, as his filter indicates, why didn't he ever try to get them lynched? layabout: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=414884¤tpage=14#266 Doesn't think we should share who we pm. Sounds like he is in favor of withholding information. Wants to kill Vayne because he doesn't use pms. Terrible reasoning. As I mentioned before, Vayne is stating an opinion that he expressed during pre-game. Why should that be alignment-indicative at all? Defends Malongo, attacks VE http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=414884¤tpage=19#364 Says he wants to lynch Vivax, but never follows up http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=414884¤tpage=19#379 Overall goal seems to be to keep slOosh alive. I think that if slOosh flips mafia, this guy should be our #1 target. Malongo: Malongo is inexorably linked to each one of these guys. I have a feeling that because VE tried to attack Malongo, scum decided VE needed to die. All of the above players ganged up on VE in order to push attention away from Malongo. When push came to shove and VE claimed, these guys decided they should hop on another town wagon to keep slOosh alive. They see Mr. Wiggles voting Mz and decide that he would be an easy target to justify a lynch on. Note that NONE of these players ever gave a good reason why they thought slOosh was innocent. They barely even talked about slOosh. Why did they vote MZ instead of slOosh if they could never provide a legitimate reason why slOosh wasn't mafia? Consider that voting slOosh would guarantee VE's survival, whereas a vote on MZ was not likely to go through. They would have to be very certain of slOosh's alignment in order to adequately justify voting for MZ, considering the situation. If they actually wanted to save VE, they would have voted slOosh. Why didn't they? If slOosh is in fact mafia, this indicates that they are avoiding interacting with their teammates to prevent links being formed between each other. I think the most critical person to lynch in Day 2 is slOosh. With his alignment, we get a plethora of information about numerous people and the chances of him flipping scum are quite high. | ||
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On July 19 2013 07:34 marvellosity wrote: I'm curious, Firm, why slOosh is now a solid scumread when yesterday, based on the same filter, you called him townie and said he was a much worse lynch than VE (before you decided VE was a bad lynch after all) A few things. 1) slOosh provided an adequate response to my prod. He calmly defended himself and told me PMs were a matter of opinion, which is exactly what I wanted to hear. 2) He was a much worse lynch than VE for the majority of the day based on the information we knew. When VE claimed and said he could not nuke to prove his claim, I had to switch my position on the lynch. His claim moved him into a situation where it was 50/50 whether he was lying. The only difference was that we could use him to kill a potential lurker. If he didn't kill who we wanted him to, we could always lynch him on those grounds. 3) slOosh was defending me in times where I was facing a lot of heat. This made me think he was town because scum would have little to no reason to defend me. They would rather stay in the sidelines and watch the whole argument between DrH and I take it's own course. I have since reversed my position based on how the votes ended up. The votes are concrete evidence that we can work with so I would rather base my reads off of them than just Day 1 speculations. | ||
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Let's go through a timeline shall we...? Night 1: Ace claimed investigator by saying he would investigate me. Ace "investigated" me. Ace returned with a scum result. Here's what I know: I know I am town. I know there is absolutely no reason for a blue role detective to say that he is going to investigate someone in a night phase. Here's what I think is happening: Ace deliberately hinted that he was a detective early on so that when he pushed for my lynch the following day and I slipped town, he can run around saying I got framed. Why will people believe this? Because Ace hinted at his role and I was an obvious framer target. For scum Ace, this is a win-win situation. He wastes an entire day by focusing a lynch on a town member AND he has an out to fall back on when I flip town, giving him a decent chance of surviving for a few additional nights. Could Ace be town detective? Sure. Is it likely that Ace would play so poorly as town by targetting the obvious framer target? No. ##Vote: Ace | ||
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bold is corrected. I would like to add that I would have no reason to list 4 scumreads in the middle of the night if I was scum, especially considering who died. I will make it a point to not waste time defending myself because ultimately, it is just my word against Ace's. If town votes me, I'm not sure what I can do to stop it. I'm going to post all my updated reads(town included this time) and y'all can make the best use of it. | ||
FirmTofu
United States1956 Posts
My Reads: As Townie as Town ever Towned: DrHelvetica - There's no way he's pushing be this hard for this long if he's mafia. His PMs with yamato also seem genuine. VayneAuthority - Way too genuine about everything he says. Although he isn't particularly useful, he is very good at looking town. Meapak_Zipph - yamato's filter in basically incompatible with Meapak being on his scumteam. Vivax - Vivax never wanted to lynch VE. He was a core part of a mason group that linked VE and a few other people together. He has genuine chat logs that he posted with numerous people. He is far too honest and open to be mafia. (I used to have gumshoe on this list ) Leaning Town: slOosh - Considering that yamato was adamant about pursuing a slOosh lynch on Day 2 had he lived, slOosh is unlikely to be on his team. Korynne - Lots of good posts that probe people. I'm getting an overall town vibe from him. marvellosity - Although he generally tends to think I'm scum, he did post his logs with yamato. I can see his reasoning from a town perspective so I think he is town. raynpelikoneet - Similar to my read on Korynne in many ways. rayn is playing pro-town by being very open about PMs and constantly asking questions and looking for answers. His recent chat logs with Oats are indicative of this. kushm4sta - Considering that I am about 90% sure that Ace is scum, I see no reason for his scum teammate to discredit early on after his claim. This is exactly what kushm4sta did. Koshi - He thought Ace and I were on the same scumteam. That is reason enough for me to think he is town(albeit not a strong read). Null: layabout - I upgraded layabout because I no longer think slOosh is scum. Initially, I thought that they were very closely related, but it seems layabout had a bit of an argument with slOosh during night 1. layabout could still very well be scum, but it is hard to say at the moment. Mr. Wiggles - Was the first vote on VE, I believe. He could be scum, but his case for VE was definitely convincing. I'm not sure I can say one way or another. Oatsmaster - Although the chat logs that rayn had with Oats are somewhat convincing, I'm not just ready to move Oats down into scum territory yet. I think assuming that the bodyguard died protecting someone is a fair assumption for a townie to make and is not necessarily alignment-indicative. Most of his other posts about logs have been fairly open. I would be willing to lynch him, but only if Ace doesn't gather enough votes. sandroba - lol. Scum: Ace - Read my previous post for my case on Ace. I am almost certain he fakeclaimed and is not a stupid cop who picked me to investigate AFTER claiming cop. Jesus Christ. SnB - Not sure what to say. He's been pretty useless this game. He's voting for me, but he's leaving himself an out for when I flip green by saying shit like "I'm not entirely convinced, but DrH's case was kinda good so fuck it." I'm paraphrasing, obviously. He would be a solid lynch. kholly - His voting patterns are consistent with scum. He is Chez and is playing like a mafia Chez. He has a bunch of people I think are town on his scumlist. Kill him. Adam4167 - I believe he only has one sarcastic post in the entire thread that is a soft-defense of Ace. Adam is far better than this. Malango - Buddying Ace like there's no tomorrow. Completely useless to town. Vigi this guy ASAP. If I missed anyone let me know. Disclaimer: My town reads are a lot stronger than my scumreads. However, by identifying my town reads, I used the process of elimination to narrow down scum. | ||
FirmTofu
United States1956 Posts
On July 20 2013 03:20 DoctorHelvetica wrote:if firmtofu is not lynched in this game I will never sign up for another mafia game again in my life. I hope you don't actually follow through on that. I enjoyed playing with you and I would love to play with you again. Also, when I flip town, don't quit mafia and don't ragequit out of this game. Pinky promise? | ||
FirmTofu
United States1956 Posts
On July 20 2013 04:19 raynpelikoneet wrote: FT how does yamato's filter exclude MZ from being scum? I think during night 2, he said ace and MZ would be good vigi targets. Now I know Ace is on the scumteam, so I can't see a reason why he would group ANOTHER scum teammate on his list of vigi targets as well. Add to this that MZ has been defending me the whole game and you can see why I think he's town. He should probably be sitting in my leaning town list, though. | ||
FirmTofu
United States1956 Posts
On July 20 2013 04:28 Koshi wrote: @FirmTofu When you went off the VE wagon, you only defended VE once. Why didn't you put more and better effort in saving VE? I remember you to really like to be agressive and take the lead in the Nuclear game. You could have done more than once caps lock a defense for VE right? Are you saying I'm not aggressive in this game? I am at the forefront of all discussion BECAUSE I pissed off so many people. That only happens when you're town. That only happens when you're aggressive. About VE: 1) There were like 10 minutes left in night. I had to get out a defense of VE as quickly as possible so that voters would have the maximum amount of time possible to switch their votes. 2) My effort should have been enough reason to convince any town member not to vote for VE. I stated exactly why he deserved to live in a concise and rational manner. 3) I was hitting my post count limit and I didn't have the luxury of to just keep posting incessantly to convince people. 4) Why aren't you asking all the other idiots who didn't even bother to ask people to vote someone other than VE? | ||
FirmTofu
United States1956 Posts
On July 20 2013 06:00 Korynne wrote: Hey guys, how do you feel about asking vigilante (if there is one, because I'm not rayn and I don't assume everyone has a role =P) to vigi FT? Scenario 1a: Lynch FT, FT is scum, continue scum hunting. Scenario 1b: Vigi FT, FT is scum, fast forward scum hunting process. Scenario 2a: Lynch FT, FT is town, panic and confusion ensues, DrH commits seppuku, fingers of confusion point towards Ace and we get to do night actions and wait to decide if we lynch Ace tomorrow. Scenario 2b: Lynch FT, FT is town, panic and confusion ensues, DrH commits seppuku, we get down to business on Ace and lynch him today/he talks his way out of it and we lynch another likely mafia target. Feels like we speed things up either way and killing off FT would let us focus on "normal" mafia hunting instead of this clusterfuck of Ace claiming. Thoughts? Could we maybe consider vig'ing Ace? After all, he has done absolutely nothing for the town and from your perspective, we are equally likely to be mafia? I dunno, I guess you could say he could be a cop whereas I have no claim to blue so I'm less valuable. I would disagree. Regardless, I agree that shooting me is probably a smarter play than lynching me. Let's hope it doesn't come to that. | ||
FirmTofu
United States1956 Posts
On July 20 2013 07:16 kushm4sta wrote: eh nvm. just read fts filter for the first time. he does.seem too focused on defense. gogo lynch ft. ##vote ft Okay, hold on. You are the same guy who is saying that Ace fakeclaimed. On July 20 2013 02:11 kushm4sta wrote: so his response to aces fake claim makes him scummy? You are also the same guy that said I am town because of my response to the fakeclaim. On July 20 2013 02:56 kushm4sta wrote: oats - this guy is pretty unreadable. I can see him easily being town or scum. I have definitely seen him act like this as town. ft - town. his response to aces fake claim was really in depth and townie. go reread it of you think it makes him scummy because honestly it is one of the towniest things in the game. Why are you waffling based on no new information? On July 20 2013 07:21 strongandbig wrote: the only new things in oats's filter since D1 are his message chain with VE (short, null) and a bunch of one-liners (also null). i would like to see a real comment on the ace/ft/drh situation (especially the fakeclaim) but i see no reason to update my read. also ##unvote: firmtofu until we resolve this ace fakeclaim situation. (4/20) I'm sorry, what? You seem to be certain that Ace fake claimed. Unless you were in my position and you knew I was town, I don't see how you are so sure. Additionally, if you are so sure that Ace fakeclaimed, then why did you vote me to begin with? DrH's case was available for all of day 1, and you didn't even pass me a second glance. Obviously, the Ace claim made you vote me. Why are you now saying that it's FoS? Everyone needs to take a close look at kush and SnB. | ||
FirmTofu
United States1956 Posts
On July 20 2013 07:50 strongandbig wrote: Ace said he fakeclaimed........... Also FoS stands for Finger of Suspicion not Full of Shit. You can just write that one out. (5/20) Nevermind, I apologize for my last post. I can't believe I didn't see that... Going to unvote Ace until I figure out his true intentions. Voting kholly because Chez needs to die. | ||
FirmTofu
United States1956 Posts
On July 20 2013 10:38 Meapak_Ziphh wrote: Damn this town is just brimming with detectives. I checked Ace like I said I was going to and got SK Is SK a frameable outcome? Looks like Ace would be the better lynch because SK reduces KPN, whereas mafia doesn't. I'm not sure whether we should trust MZ considering he also claimed on Night 1 for no reason. Let's look at our possible lynches today. FirmTofu - I'm town. Ace lied when he said he checked me. DrH is the only one with a case against me. Ace - MZ says he checked Ace and got SK Vivax - kush says he's mafia according to what someone said in a PM kholly - chez who is playing like mafia chez Oatsmaster - rayn says he knew too much information about Gumshoe's death. I would be willing to lynch kholly or Ace. I'm leaning toward Ace because SK is far more dangerous than potential mafia and we can always lynch MZ if he lied. | ||
FirmTofu
United States1956 Posts
On July 20 2013 11:18 Adam4167 wrote: FirmTofu, for someone who so vehemently denounces meta usage, why are you willing to lynch kholly for what is a pure meta read on a player that isn't even confirmed to be that player? When meta is one of the only methods of reading someone, I am forced to use it to justify a lynch on an unconstructive player. I've already run through why kholly is a good lynch aside from meta in many of my posts. His voting patterns are consistent with scum ideology and he is useless to town. I might as well be clear. I don't think the reasoning that kholly=chez and chez=mafia chez justifies the lynch by itself. I am using meta to convince other people to vote for someone I find scummy because of different reasons. | ||
FirmTofu
United States1956 Posts
On July 20 2013 11:34 Korynne wrote: Hmm let's see... FirmTofu - You claim you're town, that's nice. Ace probably lied, that's nice too. Still weirded out by the fact that you say DrH is the only one with a case against you, so he's the only one that deserves to get you killed? Also pretty sure last time I checked one case is enough, if enough people are convinced. Forget this whole Ace/FT shenanigans there's plenty of evidence to lynch you without that. Did I miss the part where you and MZ are total bffs? MZ says he checked Ace and that's immediately accepted? Also SK is not an immediate lynch target is it? If there's people who actually look really scummy, like say, you, then we should probably lynch you first. I guess I also missed the part where you were bffs with kuch. Closest thing I would say is layabout was claiming he was going to make a case against Vivax, and then just completely dropped that claim. layabout is completely unmentioned by you. kholly - Sure whatever. Oatsmaster - Same deal as Vivax, not sure how they magically made it to the possible lynches list. It's like you took everyone who even had a finger accidentally pointed in their direction. (MZ) - oh wait, you didn't put your bff on this list? Oh wait, it's another FirmTofu no guys he can't be scum because that other guy is scum (Ace). (SnB) - he was on your scum list, don't see him on this list. Why the sudden change of heart? There's enough other people who think he's scummy and should be lynched. Side note does nobody else notice the ##kill thing? xD Like, we're just completely ignoring that or what? Or we waiting to see what mods say first? Why so scummy FT? :3 [[Don't mind the tone of voice in this post, it was for artistic flair. Not claiming it was good, just saying, it wasn't like, I'm mad at chu or nething. =P ]] I wasn't saying these were good lynches. I was merely mentioning the people with the most votes that had a case on them. This was supposed to be a concise way to organize the information we have at hand. DrH is the only one who's made a case on me. That is a fact. I never said that he is the only person who deserves to get me killed. Why are you twisting my words and making it sound like I'm saying something that I'm not? Killing SK would reduce the kills per night, meaning that one less town player would die every single night. This would give us a huge advantage moving forward. Of course the SK is a priority. If MZ is lying about his claim, we can always lynch him. Ace lied, but fessed up to it. This makes me even more convinced that he was trying to pull some big play as SK to try and be confirmed town. SnB is on my scumlist, sure, but like I said in my post, I was more sure of my town reads than my scum reads. I'm willing to change my scum reads based on new information. I don't see why you would expect me to remain stagnant. | ||
FirmTofu
United States1956 Posts
It looks like SnB killed Ace. SnB = Vig/MafVig? I don't see the incentive for him to publically kill Ace if he was scum. kholly's pms indicate that he is the one who checked Vivax and got a scumread. I'm inclined to believe this based on his behavior. He tried to pretend that someone else checked Vivax and told him Vivax was scum to keep himself alive. For now, kholly=town. MZ lied about his check on Ace. Throw him onto the scumlist. I wouldn't mind lynching him at this point. | ||
FirmTofu
United States1956 Posts
I will be back later. If I run out of posts, I'm going to ask rayn to relay information from my pms to him to the thread. I repeat, my scumreads are probably wrong. | ||
FirmTofu
United States1956 Posts
Original Message From RebirthOfLeGenD: You are the Jailkeeper! You win with the town. At night you may choose to Jail any player. This player cannot act or be acted upon I visited DrH night one. At the time, I thought he was VT/mafia and definitely not blue. I visited him because I didn't want to screw up some blue's night actions by accident and he seemed like a safe choice considering he was probably town's strongest collective town read. I thought if he was town, he might get attacked. If you lynch me, I won't blame you. This is by far my worst game on TL Mafia. Ugh. | ||
FirmTofu
United States1956 Posts
I would like to add that my role is by no means confirmed and that if you think it is, you should think twice. Anyone can fabricate their own pms. I could be a mafia jailkeeper as well. Like VE said before he died, role /= alignment. If I have violated the rules, I apologize. I will graciously volunteer to get modkilled. | ||
FirmTofu
United States1956 Posts
On July 20 2013 15:51 Ver wrote: FirmTofu of House Chezinu has been modkilled for posting a host pm. 6. Posting or sharing any PM you receive from a host. I don't know his actual role or role pm (maybe it's just what he posted lol) so I'll leave it to RoL to post that. Sent you a personal apology. GG guys. I can't say I particularly enjoyed the game, but it's been fun. GL HF | ||
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