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Hi guys. Replacing in for Hyach.
I won't be home for an hour or two, but I'll catch up soon.
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Oh, since VE is here:
##Join: SAST
(As far as I've gotten into reading, this is still a thing. If its not, then disregard.)
Still reading. AFK
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On March 19 2013 13:31 sciberbia wrote:
@BH
Can you explain why you chose to mason GK and then VE?
Also, I think you might as well claim your role in full and tell us if you are allowed to post the mason logs or not. Probably wait until the daypost to do this though.
Yo scib
I still haven't finished reading (I got caught up in huge IRC chat, and Hydra+Personality ending), but why do you seem all bark and no bite this game? You know I have a *TON* of respect for your town game. I'm not feeling it so far this game, though. What do?
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On March 19 2013 13:59 sciberbia wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 13:38 Keirathi wrote:On March 19 2013 13:31 sciberbia wrote:
@BH
Can you explain why you chose to mason GK and then VE?
Also, I think you might as well claim your role in full and tell us if you are allowed to post the mason logs or not. Probably wait until the daypost to do this though. Yo scib I still haven't finished reading (I got caught up in huge IRC chat, and Hydra+Personality ending), but why do you seem all bark and no bite this game? You know I have a *TON* of respect for your town game. I'm not feeling it so far this game, though. What do?  And I was so looking forward to your first post Keirathi. Yea I'm not too happy with my play this game either. I hate lynching townies. As to "all bark and no bite" I know what you mean. This game feels different to me, maybe because of the size. I feel like I haven't been guiding town sufficiently well. Don't know what else to say though. Maybe you have *TOO* much respect for my town game. I'll do my best to not disappoint on D2. How bout that. Also, please be town.
Meh. You've consistently been the "best" townie (well, maybe you could argue that you weren't the best in Not Another Normal, but no one was really spectacular and you NAILED talis) in every game I've seen/been apart of. So yea, I expect a lot from you, and I've been pretty disappointed up until page 25 or so. And in these last few pages since I replaced in.
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EBWOP: But certainly, if you play more up to my standards on day 2, all is good <3
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On March 19 2013 14:14 Wade Fell wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 14:09 Mocsta wrote:On March 19 2013 14:07 Wade Fell wrote:Look, you guys can say "Blazinghand isn't playing like he did last game" all you want, but last game D1 scum was obvious, and every day after that I had a red check on an obvious scum player. I'll reference Mario mini where people said "BH isn't playing like his town play" and basically wehre after me for meta reasons (link) You bought yourself time with this argument. I have no counter, because the point is indeed valid. doesn't matter, I'm either dead anyways due to NK and what you think is meaningless, or I have 48 hours to push my reads and how "long" it takes to convince you is not relevant. Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 14:11 Mocsta wrote:On March 19 2013 14:09 Wade Fell wrote:On March 19 2013 14:07 VisceraEyes wrote:
I wouldn't call masoning with me "risky" and I'm sure most of the vets on this site would agree with me...but that's a conversation for another time because that part of the argument IS WIFOM.
The fact of the matter is that during the day I made no secret about having a town-read on you based on your early play - if you'll recall I invited you in this thread to be on The Team. Obviously any assertion that you were "at risk" by masoning me is pretty much null considering that scum have to take risks to win the game. It becomes a question of when, and what kinds of opportunities arise. Not because of your read on me, VE-- at the end of D1 EVERYONE had a townread on me basically. Because we've played dozens of games together, and out of everyone here you are the single player who knows me best. If there's anyone in this game I wouldn't mason as scum, it would be you. Not because of your reads, not because you're some super scumhunter (though you are talented), but because you know me best. That's why you and GK are both risky for me as a scum player to mason, but both excellent for me as a town player to mason: you know me well. This isn't WIFOM, it's WTHTD. Nah.. i masoned a guy in personality that knew me best out of everyone.. and i was scum its even more powerful if you can convince that guy you are town.. surely that skill level is not beneath u BH? not buying that argument. Actually, as scum? Yes. :| Anyone who has seen me play scum can tell you I am literally the least talented scum player in existence, as untalented as scum as I am talented at town.
You weren't the worst scum player in Parallel.
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On March 19 2013 14:17 Wade Fell wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 14:15 Keirathi wrote:On March 19 2013 14:14 Wade Fell wrote:On March 19 2013 14:09 Mocsta wrote:On March 19 2013 14:07 Wade Fell wrote:Look, you guys can say "Blazinghand isn't playing like he did last game" all you want, but last game D1 scum was obvious, and every day after that I had a red check on an obvious scum player. I'll reference Mario mini where people said "BH isn't playing like his town play" and basically wehre after me for meta reasons (link) You bought yourself time with this argument. I have no counter, because the point is indeed valid. doesn't matter, I'm either dead anyways due to NK and what you think is meaningless, or I have 48 hours to push my reads and how "long" it takes to convince you is not relevant. On March 19 2013 14:11 Mocsta wrote:On March 19 2013 14:09 Wade Fell wrote:On March 19 2013 14:07 VisceraEyes wrote:
I wouldn't call masoning with me "risky" and I'm sure most of the vets on this site would agree with me...but that's a conversation for another time because that part of the argument IS WIFOM.
The fact of the matter is that during the day I made no secret about having a town-read on you based on your early play - if you'll recall I invited you in this thread to be on The Team. Obviously any assertion that you were "at risk" by masoning me is pretty much null considering that scum have to take risks to win the game. It becomes a question of when, and what kinds of opportunities arise. Not because of your read on me, VE-- at the end of D1 EVERYONE had a townread on me basically. Because we've played dozens of games together, and out of everyone here you are the single player who knows me best. If there's anyone in this game I wouldn't mason as scum, it would be you. Not because of your reads, not because you're some super scumhunter (though you are talented), but because you know me best. That's why you and GK are both risky for me as a scum player to mason, but both excellent for me as a town player to mason: you know me well. This isn't WIFOM, it's WTHTD. Nah.. i masoned a guy in personality that knew me best out of everyone.. and i was scum its even more powerful if you can convince that guy you are town.. surely that skill level is not beneath u BH? not buying that argument. Actually, as scum? Yes. :| Anyone who has seen me play scum can tell you I am literally the least talented scum player in existence, as untalented as scum as I am talented at town. You weren't the worst scum player in Parallel. Yeah but we had a shit scumteam also my play this game has literally nothing in common with my play in parallel
It does have a few similarities (you latch on to a "weak" player and refuse to let go), but for the most part I agree. At least until I see some flips.
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On March 19 2013 14:19 Mocsta wrote:
Keirathi, you reminding me a lot of u in hydra
All
The guy Kei replaced.. was he a town, null or scum read?
The guy I replaced had 0 posts.
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On March 19 2013 14:21 Wade Fell wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 14:20 Keirathi wrote:On March 19 2013 14:19 Mocsta wrote:
Keirathi, you reminding me a lot of u in hydra
All
The guy Kei replaced.. was he a town, null or scum read? The guy I replaced had 0 posts. lol
I know, right?
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On March 19 2013 14:22 Wade Fell wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 14:22 Keirathi wrote:On March 19 2013 14:21 Wade Fell wrote:On March 19 2013 14:20 Keirathi wrote:On March 19 2013 14:19 Mocsta wrote:
Keirathi, you reminding me a lot of u in hydra
All
The guy Kei replaced.. was he a town, null or scum read? The guy I replaced had 0 posts. lol I know, right? I actually had a HYOOOJ townread on the guy you replaced
Scum.
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On March 19 2013 14:26 Mocsta wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 14:24 Wade Fell wrote:On March 19 2013 14:23 Keirathi wrote:On March 19 2013 14:22 Wade Fell wrote:On March 19 2013 14:22 Keirathi wrote:On March 19 2013 14:21 Wade Fell wrote:On March 19 2013 14:20 Keirathi wrote:On March 19 2013 14:19 Mocsta wrote:
Keirathi, you reminding me a lot of u in hydra
All
The guy Kei replaced.. was he a town, null or scum read? The guy I replaced had 0 posts. lol I know, right? I actually had a HYOOOJ townread on the guy you replaced Scum. omg dood i told u not 2 bus me yet Im just gonna put it out there.. im finding this interaction odd.. im not saying its scummy... theres just something peculiar about it, feels forced
*Insert "I don't always call someone scum, but when I do, I don't" image macro*
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On March 19 2013 14:33 Wade Fell wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 14:28 Keirathi wrote:On March 19 2013 14:26 Mocsta wrote:On March 19 2013 14:24 Wade Fell wrote:On March 19 2013 14:23 Keirathi wrote:On March 19 2013 14:22 Wade Fell wrote:On March 19 2013 14:22 Keirathi wrote:On March 19 2013 14:21 Wade Fell wrote:On March 19 2013 14:20 Keirathi wrote:On March 19 2013 14:19 Mocsta wrote:
Keirathi, you reminding me a lot of u in hydra
All
The guy Kei replaced.. was he a town, null or scum read? The guy I replaced had 0 posts. lol I know, right? I actually had a HYOOOJ townread on the guy you replaced Scum. omg dood i told u not 2 bus me yet Im just gonna put it out there.. im finding this interaction odd.. im not saying its scummy... theres just something peculiar about it, feels forced *Insert "I don't always call someone scum, but when I do, I don't" image macro* (link)
Lol, I remember that getting linked in some other recent game. I even went to the site to make my own, but then I remembered no pictures so I stopped.
Anyways, I'm going to quit spamming pointless stuff and go back to reading.
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On March 19 2013 05:34 RyuSuzaku wrote:
well, that sucks. I was pretty convinced GM was scum given how suspicious he was acting. Pretty disappointing play from him, especially given his incredibly strong role.
Obviously I was wrong, but I'm town and I had completely valid reasons for attacking GM.
Oh yea, this is something I wanted to talk about before night ended. I know I just had this whole conversation in end-game for Personality, but this is not a townie mindset. I've never seen nor played with Ryu, so I can't quite put myself into his shoes and think about if a townie Ryu would say that, but it is definitely not how *MOST* townies think. Especially when literally he only had 6 posts the entire day 1, and every single one of them was focused on sandro/GM. Why wasn't he in here trying to figure the game out more? You don't get to bitch about someone else playing "bad" when you do nothing for an entire day but tunnel a townie.
Definitely on the top of my list for right now.
Still reading, afk.
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On March 19 2013 14:55 goodkarma wrote:
Hi all. I'm back for a little bit.
First, yes I was in BH's QT for day one. His motive was he wanted to get a chance to talk to me, and since he felt I had a decent chance of getting mislynched he chose me for day one. If you were to ask me that's a pretty fucking townie motive. You can't exactly manipulate the dead...
Granted, the actual QT was only put up for the last few hours of the day. It extended from shortly before his voteswitch to GM onward. His thought process he used in describing his reads is the same thought process he's taught me to use as a town player. The one thing that's stuck out to me though, and the largest reason I'd say I have a strong townread on him, is his rather avid defense of me for most of the game. This is a guy that's bent over backwards to do whatever he could to prevent my mislynch. As scum, there would simply be no motive for this.
As far as his cases go that he's posted in forum, I would agree with VE's assessment that they could be better. But we DID need to consolidate our votes, so his voteswitch to GM (and lack of pursuit of his top scumreads thereafter who clearly weren't going to get lynched) does make sense to me.
I'd give him day 2 to improve his scumhunting. I am confident that he will prove to all of you that he is town.
You are wrong. I can demonstrably show a scum BH hard defending "town reads" when it benefits him.
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On March 19 2013 15:05 sciberbia wrote:
Keirathi, talk to me about zarepath. Everything in his filter says scum to me but he keeps reminding me of my Forumite mistake from Dwarf Mini with his apologies and multiple self-contradictions. I'd greatly appreciate your opinion on him.
I'll go read his filter. Brb.
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On March 19 2013 15:11 goodkarma wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 14:59 Keirathi wrote:On March 19 2013 14:55 goodkarma wrote:
Hi all. I'm back for a little bit.
First, yes I was in BH's QT for day one. His motive was he wanted to get a chance to talk to me, and since he felt I had a decent chance of getting mislynched he chose me for day one. If you were to ask me that's a pretty fucking townie motive. You can't exactly manipulate the dead...
Granted, the actual QT was only put up for the last few hours of the day. It extended from shortly before his voteswitch to GM onward. His thought process he used in describing his reads is the same thought process he's taught me to use as a town player. The one thing that's stuck out to me though, and the largest reason I'd say I have a strong townread on him, is his rather avid defense of me for most of the game. This is a guy that's bent over backwards to do whatever he could to prevent my mislynch. As scum, there would simply be no motive for this.
As far as his cases go that he's posted in forum, I would agree with VE's assessment that they could be better. But we DID need to consolidate our votes, so his voteswitch to GM (and lack of pursuit of his top scumreads thereafter who clearly weren't going to get lynched) does make sense to me.
I'd give him day 2 to improve his scumhunting. I am confident that he will prove to all of you that he is town. You are wrong. I can demonstrably show a scum BH hard defending "town reads" when it benefits him. So my question then is this: in what way would it be beneficial for scum BH to hard defend me day one like he did? I just don't see it...
Are you blind? The benefit is that you're in here right now making this argument for him :o
Plus, its still possible that you are scum together, in which case the benefit is much more obvious.
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On March 19 2013 15:14 WaveofShadow wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 15:12 Keirathi wrote:On March 19 2013 15:11 goodkarma wrote:On March 19 2013 14:59 Keirathi wrote:On March 19 2013 14:55 goodkarma wrote:
Hi all. I'm back for a little bit.
First, yes I was in BH's QT for day one. His motive was he wanted to get a chance to talk to me, and since he felt I had a decent chance of getting mislynched he chose me for day one. If you were to ask me that's a pretty fucking townie motive. You can't exactly manipulate the dead...
Granted, the actual QT was only put up for the last few hours of the day. It extended from shortly before his voteswitch to GM onward. His thought process he used in describing his reads is the same thought process he's taught me to use as a town player. The one thing that's stuck out to me though, and the largest reason I'd say I have a strong townread on him, is his rather avid defense of me for most of the game. This is a guy that's bent over backwards to do whatever he could to prevent my mislynch. As scum, there would simply be no motive for this.
As far as his cases go that he's posted in forum, I would agree with VE's assessment that they could be better. But we DID need to consolidate our votes, so his voteswitch to GM (and lack of pursuit of his top scumreads thereafter who clearly weren't going to get lynched) does make sense to me.
I'd give him day 2 to improve his scumhunting. I am confident that he will prove to all of you that he is town. You are wrong. I can demonstrably show a scum BH hard defending "town reads" when it benefits him. So my question then is this: in what way would it be beneficial for scum BH to hard defend me day one like he did? I just don't see it... Are you blind? The benefit is that you're in here right now making this argument for him :o Plus, its still possible that you are scum together, in which case the benefit is much more obvious. That would be devious as fuck, and seems really unlikely.
How is it devious? Scum players defend town players all the time. Why do they do it? Because they can get "town cred" for it because they know that they are right.
Hell, just look at this filter: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=387591&user=133498¤tpage=All
That's BH's scum filter from Parallel. You can see how much time he spends defending his town reads.
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@sciberbia:
I'm not interested in lynching zare right now. For one, I don't know his meta and I don't have time to read it tonight. But for two, he's mostly reading as newbie town to me. I completely disagree with his case on Hopeless, but that's because I am very familiar with Hopeless' play. But otherwise, he brought up some solid points on Hopeless and Wiggles. He seems to be trying to figure things out like a newbie town would.
My biggest problem with his play, actually, is him playing the newbie card. But that's not enough that I'm interested in him for now. He's fine to leave alive a bit longer and see how things progress.
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On March 19 2013 15:31 Mocsta wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 15:27 Keirathi wrote:
@sciberbia:
I'm not interested in lynching zare right now. For one, I don't know his meta and I don't have time to read it tonight. But for two, he's mostly reading as newbie town to me. I completely disagree with his case on Hopeless, but that's because I am very familiar with Hopeless' play. But otherwise, he brought up some solid points on Hopeless and Wiggles. He seems to be trying to figure things out like a newbie town would.
My biggest problem with his play, actually, is him playing the newbie card. But that's not enough that I'm interested in him for now. He's fine to leave alive a bit longer and see how things progress. U liked his first post? As a funny tidbit: zarepath done some weird shit as newbie town. Last game i played with him, he wrote a fake case on someone he had a town read on.. to gauge reactions.. the fake case was so good. the target (WaveofShadow IIRC pertty much gave up LOL)
No, I didn't "like" his first post. It is full of bad rationale and terrible arguments ("Someone told me that VE always claims town in his opening post, but him doing it this game is scummy anyways"). But that's not exactly the kind of things I expect a newbie scum to say either.
Honestly, it feels like a newbie town trying to have a good reason to start posting, but failing. His thoughts are free-flowing and not pre-constructed. He's not being "clean" with them. Etc/etc.
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EBWOP: And, he stands up to VE's SAST. How many newbie scum go out of their way to stand up to vets?
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Anyways, my point is, I don't have a "Yep, I'm sure this guy is town. There's no way we're lynching him" read on zare. But, I am not interested in lynching him tomorrow. I'm more than happy to give him time to contribute and get a better read on.
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On March 19 2013 15:39 WaveofShadow wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 15:37 Keirathi wrote:
EBWOP: And, he stands up to VE's SAST. How many newbie scum go out of their way to stand up to vets? I did the same thing..... Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 02:41 WaveofShadow wrote:
I'm not familiar to heavily themed games but what makes me wonder here about the setup is the sheer number of roles. 17 to be exact. Are these all going to be roles with power?
And now off the topic of setup speculation a few things I noticed from the very beginning of the game:
BH playing exactly like I've seen him before, mega aggressive. It works fine for him, he hunts scum and succeeds.
Can't decide whether I like Geript's 'new troll-y' style of playing or not, but ultimately (as many have pointed out) it's probably better than the way he ended in LX.
I don't have any scumreads as of yet (especially since half the thread is yet to post) but I'll be keeping my eye out.
Oh yeah one more thing: VE that SAST idea is retarded in my eyes, but makes me wonder about some sort of extra/3rd party wincon. Something like,' get a bunch of people to join your 3rd party group and successfully get 3-5 people mislynched' or some shit. I can't think of ANY other reason why you'd try to be serious about something that ridiculous. If you're serious about hunting scum, it's probably better you focus on that since you can be a huge asset to town when you're focused.
So, you're saying you're scum, so my argument is invalid?
Okay then.
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As an aside, lets do some setup speculation.
How likely is it that there are 2 town aligned masons, with Nightmare already flipping? Granted, Nightmare was a mason-vig, but Mason is a pretty damn strong role. In games with temporary masons, you don't often see them so lopsided, numbers wise :o
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On March 19 2013 15:41 WaveofShadow wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 15:40 Keirathi wrote:On March 19 2013 15:39 WaveofShadow wrote:On March 19 2013 15:37 Keirathi wrote:
EBWOP: And, he stands up to VE's SAST. How many newbie scum go out of their way to stand up to vets? I did the same thing..... On March 17 2013 02:41 WaveofShadow wrote:
I'm not familiar to heavily themed games but what makes me wonder here about the setup is the sheer number of roles. 17 to be exact. Are these all going to be roles with power?
And now off the topic of setup speculation a few things I noticed from the very beginning of the game:
BH playing exactly like I've seen him before, mega aggressive. It works fine for him, he hunts scum and succeeds.
Can't decide whether I like Geript's 'new troll-y' style of playing or not, but ultimately (as many have pointed out) it's probably better than the way he ended in LX.
I don't have any scumreads as of yet (especially since half the thread is yet to post) but I'll be keeping my eye out.
Oh yeah one more thing: VE that SAST idea is retarded in my eyes, but makes me wonder about some sort of extra/3rd party wincon. Something like,' get a bunch of people to join your 3rd party group and successfully get 3-5 people mislynched' or some shit. I can't think of ANY other reason why you'd try to be serious about something that ridiculous. If you're serious about hunting scum, it's probably better you focus on that since you can be a huge asset to town when you're focused. So, you're saying you're scum, so my argument is invalid? Okay then. No, I'm saying that argument is meaningless either way. Zare is not afraid to 'stand up' to anyone, nor should he be, scum or town. I think it;s null.
It's easy for you to say you disagree if you are town. You have no problem standing up to someone, because it doesn't really matter how you look to that person.
As a newbie scum, coming into your first (?) big game, you are scared to death of fucking up and getting lynching for saying something stupid. You don't run into the thread and start picking apart posts from one of the strongest players in the game.
Even just think back to hydra, when you posted that bit about ObsQT. Would you have done that if you were scum? I'm going to say its unlikely, because as scum you are worried about keeping up your appearance. You would have talked with Soniv and gotten your story straight.
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On March 19 2013 15:49 Mocsta wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 15:43 Keirathi wrote:
As an aside, lets do some setup speculation.
How likely is it that there are 2 town aligned masons, with Nightmare already flipping? Granted, Nightmare was a mason-vig, but Mason is a pretty damn strong role. In games with temporary masons, you don't often see them so lopsided, numbers wise :o No idea IIRC Mafia LIX had 6 masons from memory out of 30 players
But weren't 3 of those town, and 3 scum?
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On March 19 2013 15:52 WaveofShadow wrote:
Keir you make a good point, but then if anything that points to zarepath being scummy rather than someone you don't want to focus on D2....
What? How?
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On March 19 2013 15:54 WaveofShadow wrote:
I see definite differences in his play that I noted; just because he stands up to one person disagreeing with the town circle idea is not enough.
His regular town play he is much more methodical, he pushes his reads constantly and as Mocsta noted, isn't afraid of trying crazy shit if he thinks it might benefit the town.
That's fine. Like I said, I haven't looked into his meta at all. I have never played with him, nor read a single one of his games.
My points still stand for me until I do. I'll rehash: 1) seems to be genuinely trying to figure out the game, with solid analysis posts on a couple of players (even though I disagree with his reads) 2) posts flow naturally and like they aren't constructed, like a newbie town who isn't afraid to just type rather than a newbie scum who is always checking himself to make sure he isn't fucking up and 3) was willing to stand up to a major player in his very first post
I'll read through some of his other games tomorrow though.
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GG.
Kind of sad I died so soon before I even finished reading the thread.
Glad I made Ryu sweat a little before I died though :D
Edit: also glad I kept zare from getting mislynched day 2!
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On March 31 2013 01:42 zarepath wrote:
Sorry, son mashed the keys. I wish I'd been more confident about my reads, namely the layabout one and the Ryu one. I liked both of them as lynches more than glurio but wasnt' around to push either.
I wish I knew better what to do Day 1 as town. I never seem to be able to look town enough on day 1.
Meh, I was able to read you correctly as town night 1.
Beyond that, I really think its just a matter of experience.
Edit: Although, I will say that as I was reading through day 1 catching up, I did think "OMG THIS GUY SO SCUM KILL IT WITH FIRE". But, when scib asked me what I thought about you, and I went back through your filter and actually analyzed your posts, I came to the exact opposite conclusion.
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On March 31 2013 03:48 WaveofShadow wrote:
Lol I also just read the QT; I'm honestly shocked that some of you guys were pegging the scumteam by later in the game and still thought I was scum.
I think Mocsta had it when he said that I was new to DT and just didn't know who to check. I think it was a combination of me not having any solid scumreads that game and having bad luck in checking dead players 2 nights in a row. And as for my failed breadcrumbing, it would have looked more like crumbing if I didn't have to out myself after the very first one lol.
:o
P.S. I wasn't trying to rail on you with my comments about why I found it extremely unlikely you were fake claiming. Dont hate me plz.
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On March 31 2013 03:53 WaveofShadow wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2013 03:49 Keirathi wrote:On March 31 2013 03:48 WaveofShadow wrote:
Lol I also just read the QT; I'm honestly shocked that some of you guys were pegging the scumteam by later in the game and still thought I was scum.
I think Mocsta had it when he said that I was new to DT and just didn't know who to check. I think it was a combination of me not having any solid scumreads that game and having bad luck in checking dead players 2 nights in a row. And as for my failed breadcrumbing, it would have looked more like crumbing if I didn't have to out myself after the very first one lol. :o P.S. I wasn't trying to rail on you with my comments about why I found it extremely unlikely you were fake claiming. Dont hate me plz. Lol not at all man, you were spot on. I can understand people's points of view I suppose towards my play; I think this game just made me realize just how much I need to change up my play and how much I need to learn about scumhunting. Maybe stepping back and shadowing for a game would help me, but I love playing way too much to step back.  Keir wanna mentor me in some game we're not in together?
Sure.
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I would much rather play with someone who posts too much than someone who posts 3 times per cycle.
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On March 31 2013 12:56 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2013 12:52 Keirathi wrote:
I would much rather play with someone who posts too much than someone who posts 3 times per cycle. I don't think guys like VE, Mocsta and I are in danger of falling into the latter category. Do you think it's possible that a policy lynch against a spammer would reduce the actively levels of normal players?
I dunno.
I wouldn't consider myself a spammer, but I'm going to post what I want to post whenever I want to post it. No "policy" is going to change that.
Part of the problem with the whole "spamming = bad" thing to me is that I just find it much, much easier to read people when they're having an active, back-and-forth conversation with someone than I do from big, contrived posts. In those kinds of conversations, you get people giving their "pure" thoughts, not some watered-down "does this make me look bad? let me word it a bit differently" thoughts.
I understand that if *everyone* is making those kinds of big posts and that that is what the whole game revolves around, then it's just a different type of game style. It requires a different scumhunting strategy. Maybe if I had played in an era where that was the norm, I could understand the desire to move back there, but really I feel like the general play style now is "easier" and therefore open to a broader audience of players.
Edit: I should say that be easier, I mean a simpler "style" in that a lot of it is reading people (which is something we, as humans, do naturally, even if sometimes badly) instead of looking for arbitrary clues that people have to learn.
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The other problem with 3p in this game is that apparently town had to eliminate them for the game to end?
Imagine if layabout had just hard-bussed all of his former teammates started on day 2. By day 6, all of the scum in the game are dead, and you're left with like 10 townies and 3 3p. 3p doesn't have any KP, so how are they ever supposed to get rid of influential townies? What about blue roles?
You would literally have to sit through up to 10 days of townies vs 0 KP nights. That doesn't even make sense.
If you are going to have a 3p without any KP and only limited growth potential, then they have to be true survivors. Aka, if you are alive when the game ends for town or scum, then you win too. It shouldn't be part of town wincon to have to kill them.
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On March 31 2013 14:37 Kenpachi wrote:
isnt town win condition to just eliminate all mafia
Someone asked and DrH told them that town had to eliminate all non-town.
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This whole argument: "The other guy played bad so I was justified in my vote". How about stop thinking like that, eh?
But don't listen to me. I'm just the noob.
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Oh yea. I can't think of a serious reason for night to ever be ended early.
I think if the host nor cohost can make the deadline, they should find some impartial third party to make the post. Or, even just delay it. I also hate late posts, but I would 10000% rather have a 3 hour late day post than one 5 minutes early with no warning.
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I always use the 1 hour resolution period when I host.
I think it adds an interesting dynamic to the game, but more importantly it just makes my job easier. In one of my first co-hosting gigs (with marv, I think?) people kept sending in night actions 2-3 minutes before the deadline, and I ended up having to completely rewrite my flavor like 2-3 times because of it.
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On April 01 2013 03:35 sciberbia wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2013 03:18 iGrok wrote:On April 01 2013 02:59 sciberbia wrote:On March 31 2013 14:41 ThePeashooter wrote:On March 31 2013 14:39 Keirathi wrote:On March 31 2013 14:37 Kenpachi wrote:
isnt town win condition to just eliminate all mafia Someone asked and DrH told them that town had to eliminate all non-town. Yeah I remembered reading that but couldn't find it anywhere. I sent a PM to DrH:
Is it possible for this game to contain non-town entities that are not considered "threats to town" as specified by the town win condition? Or would that fall outside the realm of possibilities in a "Normal game"?
Threats to town is meant to be taken as anyone who is not town aligned.
I was going to include this in my deadline post but that was the night DrH ended night 5 minutes early :/ spiel about recruiter role that you will probably find uninteresting + Show Spoiler +
I didn't follow a lot of the conversation about this third party recruiter role, but one thing that I really don't like about it is how the win condition of the mirror image works. The mirror image starts with either the town win condition or the mafia win condition. Then, in order for him to get converted, he must play against his original win condition. Once, he is converted, he essentially has two alternate win conditions, which makes mirror image quite an imba role. He essentially has two chances to win. I recommend that future hosts take things like this into consideration if you want to include a similar role in a future game.
long spiel on closed setups that you will probably find uninteresting + Show Spoiler +
On a side note, I don't like closed setups, "hidden" mechanics, or even to a lesser extent semi-open setups in general. Because it greatly benefits a player to be able to guess what kind of setups the host would be likely to make.
For example, VE made the poor decision to out the mirror and not accept the conversion because VE had no information on the setup. In reality, he would have done much better to accept. But how was VE supposed to know this? He just had to guess.
On the other hand, layabout made the good strategic decision to get converted. So did layabout "outplay" VE? Did layabout demonstrate that he is better at the game of mafia? In my opinion, no. He just correctly guessed that it would help him win if he accepted the conversion. "Closed" mechanics introduce a factor of "guess the setup" to mafia, which is otherwise very much a game of skill.
I like setups like C9++, like 4of6, or like that of Nomination Mafia, or Hydra Mini Mafia. Where everybody knows EXACTLY how the setup was created. And it is not a matter of "guess what the host did".
Speaking of which, if there's one thing I really hate about setups, its when hosts "balance" the teams. This is another case of "guess what the host is likely to do". Such as DrH giving GreyMist the nightmare role because GM requested it in his /in post. Anybody that knew DrH would be prone to do this is put at an advantage. And team balancing is unfair to newer players who do not know what teams the host would consider balanced. If hosts want to balance teams, then the only way to make it fair is to specify what teams would be considered balanced, and then redo the RNG until a "balanced" team is RNG'd. Something like "exactly 4 of VE, WF, kitaman, Palmar, marv, sandroba are town". But I would much prefer that teams are completely randomized. I think it would be fun to see Palmar, marv, bugs, and sandroba on a scumteam. It would make a nice change from the balancing that seems to me to be prevalent.
Also, I think that 23+1 is much better than 24 hour nights. 24 hour nights is very messy. It requires everyone who wants to make a deadline post to wait until literally 5 seconds before the deadline and make their post, if they want to be sure that nobody else will read it before the deadline. And it requires that the host is EXACTLY on time with the day post. In theory, it could work. But in practice, it is unlikely to happen. I think 23+1 silent and the standard 23+1 action resolution are both good, and both have a slight flaw. 23+1 silent has the drawback that everyone with night actions has to be online an hour before the deadline, read all the deadline posts, and then decide if they want to change their night action. 23+1 action resolution has the drawback that night actions have to be submitted before deadline posts. This introduces a "randomizing" factor into NK decisions and other night action decisions. Not all the information is available to the people making the decisions. Mafia has to choose who to NK without knowing what final reads people will push etc. 23+1 silent is no different than 24 from a player perspective. That's why GreY and I did that. Either the players have to be online at hour 23, or they have to be online at hour 24. What's the difference? 23+1 non-silent is terrible and should never be used, unless you were playing Last Will and Testament perhaps. 23 +1 silent removes the possibility of writing a last will that mafia cannot see before deciding their NK. So for any VT that just wants to give some "last reads" during the night, there is no obligation to be online at any particular time using 23 +1 silent.
I don't understand?
If the night was 23+1 silent, why wouldn't the townies just make their last will posts at 22.999 instead of the 23.999 they do on 24 hour nights? Scum still can't change their night actions in the 1 extra hour.
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On April 01 2013 03:44 sciberbia wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2013 03:40 Keirathi wrote:On April 01 2013 03:35 sciberbia wrote:On April 01 2013 03:18 iGrok wrote:On April 01 2013 02:59 sciberbia wrote:On March 31 2013 14:41 ThePeashooter wrote:On March 31 2013 14:39 Keirathi wrote:On March 31 2013 14:37 Kenpachi wrote:
isnt town win condition to just eliminate all mafia Someone asked and DrH told them that town had to eliminate all non-town. Yeah I remembered reading that but couldn't find it anywhere. I sent a PM to DrH:
Is it possible for this game to contain non-town entities that are not considered "threats to town" as specified by the town win condition? Or would that fall outside the realm of possibilities in a "Normal game"?
Threats to town is meant to be taken as anyone who is not town aligned.
I was going to include this in my deadline post but that was the night DrH ended night 5 minutes early :/ spiel about recruiter role that you will probably find uninteresting + Show Spoiler +
I didn't follow a lot of the conversation about this third party recruiter role, but one thing that I really don't like about it is how the win condition of the mirror image works. The mirror image starts with either the town win condition or the mafia win condition. Then, in order for him to get converted, he must play against his original win condition. Once, he is converted, he essentially has two alternate win conditions, which makes mirror image quite an imba role. He essentially has two chances to win. I recommend that future hosts take things like this into consideration if you want to include a similar role in a future game.
long spiel on closed setups that you will probably find uninteresting + Show Spoiler +
On a side note, I don't like closed setups, "hidden" mechanics, or even to a lesser extent semi-open setups in general. Because it greatly benefits a player to be able to guess what kind of setups the host would be likely to make.
For example, VE made the poor decision to out the mirror and not accept the conversion because VE had no information on the setup. In reality, he would have done much better to accept. But how was VE supposed to know this? He just had to guess.
On the other hand, layabout made the good strategic decision to get converted. So did layabout "outplay" VE? Did layabout demonstrate that he is better at the game of mafia? In my opinion, no. He just correctly guessed that it would help him win if he accepted the conversion. "Closed" mechanics introduce a factor of "guess the setup" to mafia, which is otherwise very much a game of skill.
I like setups like C9++, like 4of6, or like that of Nomination Mafia, or Hydra Mini Mafia. Where everybody knows EXACTLY how the setup was created. And it is not a matter of "guess what the host did".
Speaking of which, if there's one thing I really hate about setups, its when hosts "balance" the teams. This is another case of "guess what the host is likely to do". Such as DrH giving GreyMist the nightmare role because GM requested it in his /in post. Anybody that knew DrH would be prone to do this is put at an advantage. And team balancing is unfair to newer players who do not know what teams the host would consider balanced. If hosts want to balance teams, then the only way to make it fair is to specify what teams would be considered balanced, and then redo the RNG until a "balanced" team is RNG'd. Something like "exactly 4 of VE, WF, kitaman, Palmar, marv, sandroba are town". But I would much prefer that teams are completely randomized. I think it would be fun to see Palmar, marv, bugs, and sandroba on a scumteam. It would make a nice change from the balancing that seems to me to be prevalent.
Also, I think that 23+1 is much better than 24 hour nights. 24 hour nights is very messy. It requires everyone who wants to make a deadline post to wait until literally 5 seconds before the deadline and make their post, if they want to be sure that nobody else will read it before the deadline. And it requires that the host is EXACTLY on time with the day post. In theory, it could work. But in practice, it is unlikely to happen. I think 23+1 silent and the standard 23+1 action resolution are both good, and both have a slight flaw. 23+1 silent has the drawback that everyone with night actions has to be online an hour before the deadline, read all the deadline posts, and then decide if they want to change their night action. 23+1 action resolution has the drawback that night actions have to be submitted before deadline posts. This introduces a "randomizing" factor into NK decisions and other night action decisions. Not all the information is available to the people making the decisions. Mafia has to choose who to NK without knowing what final reads people will push etc. 23+1 silent is no different than 24 from a player perspective. That's why GreY and I did that. Either the players have to be online at hour 23, or they have to be online at hour 24. What's the difference? 23+1 non-silent is terrible and should never be used, unless you were playing Last Will and Testament perhaps. 23 +1 silent removes the possibility of writing a last will that mafia cannot see before deciding their NK. So for any VT that just wants to give some "last reads" during the night, there is no obligation to be online at any particular time using 23 +1 silent. I don't understand? If the night was 23+1 silent, why wouldn't the townies just make their last will posts at 22.999 instead of the 23.999 they do on 24 hour nights? Scum still can't change their night actions in the 1 extra hour. Oh I guess I misunderstood. I thought 23 +1 silent meant actions can still be changed in the last hour.
I mean, it could be like that if the host wanted it to.
But generally in 23+1, the 1 hour is an "action resolution period" in which no night actions can be changed at all. Especially useful for complex themed games that have all kinds of crazy interactions that could take time to work through.
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EPT
