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On March 09 2013 09:19 Aquanim wrote:
I had three problems with this Vivax case.
1) If the only explanation for the observed events was that Vivax was scum why would scum do it in the first place?
Answer: Should have been obvious. If JJ had actually done a JK that would have explained the lack of scum KP, which perfectly explains why they didn't roleblock him (which has been mentioned before). Fortuitous in hindsight. I think this was mentioned by JJ but it took me a while to get it through my head.
2) Vivax claimed vigilante Night 1 and scum would have had to "use" their roleblock on him to explain his lack of KP.
Answer: Implies a fair bit of planning in advance but I suppose I can see it. Roleblock night 1 is a bit of a crapshoot
3) I had a townread on Vivax independent of vigilante claim.
Answer: I've been wrong before and will likely be wrong again.
Which leaves the question of "would scum really shoot themselves with their own KP?". I have doubts but it's the kind of plan Vivax and Chezinu would come up with.
##Vote: Vivax
Dont forget about Vivax & RO sussing out vig possibilities well before, unveiling vivax as vig in D1/N1.
I will give them credit, they put the "feelers" out there, and registered no vigilante so decided to follow through.
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On March 09 2013 09:19 MilkSuckler wrote:
BTw.. for those that are still thinking scum forgot to execute the N2 NK.
seriously.. have you played scum before
(1) the host reads the QT, and often the NK is discussed there
(2) the host typically will PM the scum team, if no actions have been given.
Everything was made in the favour for scum to execute the NK... the argument that this chance is more likely than the logic i am explaining, is a strawman argument.. and implies you think aquanim is guaranteed scum.
My filter dump of the FLIPPED scum players, suggests aquanim is clear as non-scum; which again is more evidence to the contrary of "fail to submit" actions.
Just because *YOU* think its stupid to shoot your own, doesnt mean it can not happen.
Scum play needs to be innovative.. town have been demolishing scum left, right and center.
Shooting your own, whilst not innovative, is still a big deviation from the norm, and is acceptable play considering the position RO was in.
I agree and Vivax pushed Aquanim before based on nonsense
There's no way scum didn't send in night actions, oatsmaster would absolutely contact them thinking otherwise isn't wifom it's retarded
shame my interest level has been so low that im only realizing that now
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On March 09 2013 09:20 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
So you aren't convinced by the case at all and are unsure about the night action
so why would you vote for vivax?
That wasn't what I said.
I said that I did have doubts, and then gave my answers to all of them, for two purposes:
1) to make my thought process transparent which I think is a good policy
2) in case anyone else was stuck on the same points, my explanation might help them get past those points
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I'm not really sure what your thoughts are, it seems you don't have much of an opinion at all.
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On March 09 2013 09:32 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
I'm not really sure what your thoughts are, it seems you don't have much of an opinion at all.
Short version: I can't see any other explanation for night 2 besides Vivax being scum. So, I'm voting for him.
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GG Jorge.
I'll just repeat my argument: Nothing stopped me from claiming being roleblocked all the time or shooting someone like hassy instead of a teammate. Scum knew I wasn't going to be RBd, so I don't know what happened to their shot, they might have framed me by withholding KP knowing I would shoot, which is now working just fine.
I'll still accept going down if those doubts are too strong for you guys to go on with the game without doing something productive, but not before I'm done convincing you that jcarl is scum. Lynch him after me.
On February 27 2013 04:10 jcarlsoniv wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2013 04:06 ObviousOne wrote:On February 27 2013 04:04 jcarlsoniv wrote:Um...JJ, wtf? On February 26 2013 18:25 JungleJorge wrote:
I believe promethelax is innocent and I may expand on that if necessary, but it should be painfully obvious to anyone reading this thread how much traction this wagon got based on very poor reasoning by most of you. Much of the "scummy" behavior you have been pointing out is exactly the opposite of what scum normally tries to accomplish when they post. I suggest you revisit prom's filter and think about why he would post some of the stuff he has posted if he was indeed scum. I plan on being more specific later, but I'll give you guys some time to figure it out by yourselves.
I would also like you to take a look on The Macho Man, as he is my best guess for scum amongst the "active" posters. Again, I'll come back to expand on this as well. See you guys in a few hours. On February 27 2013 03:41 JungleJorge wrote:On February 26 2013 22:00 Promethelax wrote:Hey all, catching a jetplane outta here in a few minutes but I'm here right now. I'm still uncomfortable with Wade though knowing it is bh makes him less likely to be scum in my eyes. His weird d1 behaviour is weird in a blazing way, which I usually find scummy. Things I still find scummy in him: his omgus attack already mentioned, attacking me for having a changed read after I reread the thread (I get that everyone wants to get on my wagon now, its the in thing to do but assuming you do lynch me when I flip look for shoddy reasoning like Wade's), his obsession with the vet/newbie dichotomy (he is focusing on it to the exclusion of actual scum hunting) Things I find townie: his confidence and casual tone ("for all you know I'm warbaby" and "so no real opinions then") conclusion: keep an eye on, not a good day one lynch JJ on the other hand is looking scummier (again this only works for me but once I flip go back and look at my reads k thx) I am under a lot of pressure now and most/all of the vets and smurfs (i.e. probable vets want to lynch me) and yet JJ comes in and says I am town for no reason. He has a reason. He just won't share it. It looks to me like a scummer trying to gain a little cred on a mislynch while also not actually derail the lynch. This is his whole interaction with me/comment on me before his sudden defense On February 26 2013 10:11 JungleJorge wrote:On February 26 2013 09:39 WaveofShadow wrote:On February 26 2013 09:37 MilkSuckler wrote:On February 26 2013 09:35 geript wrote:
As of yet, no. The question is why do you feel my newbie status is important? Actually its the opposite. You become non-existent. 'pretty much how I feel right now. See you D2 everybody! Promethelax, how do you feel about this post? conclusion: probably scum, would lynch. I'm heading out of town and will have limited internet access. I will post when I can. Good luck town! Promethelax is likely scum. I made that post specifically to see how he would react (as you noticed I didn't provide any reasons). Mostly my concerns were that too many people were pushing for his lynch and there was no opposition to it. Also the main reasons for the suspicion on him was some sudden change of mind or some controversial behavior, and those are normally townie traits. Now onto his reaction to my post: as town he would never come to the conclusion that I'm scum in that spot. What would be my interest as scum in defending a player everybody else thinks is scum? For town cred? As you can all tell that very often has the opposite effect and town cred is overrated anyway. People had not even mentioned my name prior to this so I had no reason to risk my neck over this. If you know you are townie your first reaction in this situation certainly is to think the people that are defending you are town! Now as scum what would you do? First you have inherent guilt, you think you look bad, so it's plausible that the claim that the guy defending you must have extra information should fly. Secondly you want to divert attention from your lynch, so it's a terrific opportunity to throw suspicion on someone that is on the other side of the issue. People that want to lynch prome certainly won't like the defense one bit, and are more easily willing to jump on the person defending it. As you can see Promethelax post makes very little sense if taken form a townie perspective, but makes a lot of sense given a scum mentality. I'll refrain from expanding my thoughts on macho man from now as to not derail this lynch. Jcarl are you insinuating that JJ was making it look like there was opposition to the lynch so that the prevailing mindset that "lynches that meet opposition are usually good lynches" would cause a follow-through? Scum using a TL-meta tool to their advanted? What? I'm confused as to why JJ would go from "I believe promethelax is innocent" to "Promethelax is likely scum" in literally one post. And using "JK GAIZ I WAS JUST TESTING HIM" is not a viable excuse in my book.
This post was directed to JJ when he flipped on Prom from townread to scumread, jcarl found the switch scummy but didn't comment on Prom at all until this point.
I believe it's cause jcarl knew what alignment Prom would flip next. Jcarl has been consistently attacking people who pushed Prom: First JJ with this and then Vayesh with his case.
On February 27 2013 04:01 jcarlsoniv wrote:Alllllllrighty VayeshMoruAfter a quick read through his filter, one thing is certainly obvious (aside the fact that VM is 3rd person role playing): He isn't committing to anything. VM makes a couple posts about disliking Vivax: + Show Spoiler +On February 26 2013 10:09 VayeshMoru wrote:
Vayesh finds all this talking hard on the head. He believes silencing Vivax would ease the suffering of all considerably. After that silence is attained the society of cult killers should move on to discussing real mayoral choices. Those who decide to blend in with shadow and hide their faces are no better than doomsday bringers. On February 26 2013 10:49 VayeshMoru wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2013 10:46 ObviousOne wrote:On February 26 2013 10:09 VayeshMoru wrote:
Vayesh finds all this talking hard on the head. He believes silencing Vivax would ease the suffering of all considerably. After that silence is attained the society of cult killers should move on to discussing real mayoral choices. Those who decide to blend in with shadow and hide their faces are no better than doomsday bringers. What has convinced VayeshMoru that Vivax should be the one to surrender to The Light? when one speaks, meaning should be revealed. Instead when Vivax speaks confusion is created. Men of order and truth have no reason to create chaos, to mute those of worth. On February 26 2013 10:52 VayeshMoru wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2013 10:51 ObviousOne wrote:On February 26 2013 10:49 VayeshMoru wrote:On February 26 2013 10:46 ObviousOne wrote:On February 26 2013 10:09 VayeshMoru wrote:
Vayesh finds all this talking hard on the head. He believes silencing Vivax would ease the suffering of all considerably. After that silence is attained the society of cult killers should move on to discussing real mayoral choices. Those who decide to blend in with shadow and hide their faces are no better than doomsday bringers. What has convinced VayeshMoru that Vivax should be the one to surrender to The Light? when one speaks, meaning should be revealed. Instead when Vivax speaks confusion is created. Men of order and truth have no reason to create chaos, to mute those of worth. One could say similar things about the ObviousOne. The ObviousOne has said a great many things to the detriment of the atmopshere, but the ObviousOne feels his time is best utilized in preparing today's records for tomorrow's filing. obviousone could say this yes. But the annuls show that the discussion the one by OO has been more relevant than that of the mockery of society of the Vivax And then gives his $.02 about some other people: + Show Spoiler +On February 26 2013 11:02 VayeshMoru wrote:
Let the records show the the voice of Prom has slowly gone from the soothing and alluring voice of the songstress to the shriek of countless banshee's. Cult worshipping is appearing to be at an all time high. A savior is needed to clear the shadows from our light. On February 26 2013 11:09 VayeshMoru wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2013 11:02 Aquanim wrote:On February 26 2013 10:59 Promethelax wrote:On February 26 2013 10:54 Aquanim wrote:On February 26 2013 10:43 Promethelax wrote:
Talk to me about aqua. On February 26 2013 10:48 VisceraEyes wrote:
Need more dataz. So far I'm not interested in lynching him if that's what you're asking - his read on OO seems genuine (and in my opinion decent). On February 26 2013 10:48 Promethelax wrote:
...
Are you being serious or sarcastic about aqua? I'm not sure how VE's post could be construed as sarcastic... but in any case I get the feeling you have an opinion on me. Care to share it? Well I'd like to hear something from you first. Who is scum and why? My current strongest scum read is ObviousOne for the reasons stated earlier. His protestations of "I can't give reads early" combined with the reads he has in fact given with little-to-no reasoning feels like scum trying to contribute without actually committing himself. I don't have time to analyse everyone's play at the moment so that's all I have for now. Vayesh is puzzled at the contradictions brought to bear before him. The voice of the man of water speaks of non committal when he himself fails to show commitment to the cause. The light is not finding its way into the ocean depths. Perhaps with more swimming the figure will come closer to illumination. On February 26 2013 12:20 VayeshMoru wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2013 12:18 TestSubject893 wrote:On February 26 2013 12:14 MilkSuckler wrote:On February 26 2013 12:09 TestSubject893 wrote:
You're gonna have to help me here. What do you mean when you say "sheep this"? That the role needs to go to someone we trust and someone responsible. Not just a newbie that is at risk of being ignored. I thought it was transparent. I still don't understand, sorry. My question really is what does sheep mean in this context? I know that's a noob question, sorry; this is only my 3rd game on TL. A question appears. Does this lab rat have experience in worlds outside of the team liquid? If so why would the experiment feel the need to declare his inability to perform. On February 26 2013 12:25 VayeshMoru wrote:
Vayesh finds it odd that Prom feels the need to speak for a man named marv. Vayesh does not see the one by that name in this world. If he exists he must be a man of the mask. If that were the case would it not be wise to correlate that the man from prom was in some form of dealings with the masked devil On February 26 2013 12:41 VayeshMoru wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2013 12:38 MilkSuckler wrote:On February 26 2013 12:33 VayeshMoru wrote:On February 26 2013 12:31 Promethelax wrote:On February 26 2013 12:25 VisceraEyes wrote:On February 26 2013 12:23 Promethelax wrote:On February 26 2013 12:22 VisceraEyes wrote:On February 26 2013 12:20 Promethelax wrote:On February 26 2013 12:18 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
god how little i anyone should care if marvellosity theoretically agrees with you, what is he mafia jesus or something?
ace agrees with everything i've said in this thread so far, is everyone on board with me now? i talked to him about it like a billion times. Be pissy about it if you want. I'm Talking to VE about the opinion of a player we both talk to regularly and respect. Grush is town. I'm sure of it and I always will be, someone could get a red check on him this game and I'd still have him as town. Your name drop did nothing for me either Prom, just so we're on the same page. I don't care what marv has to say regarding grush' Starsenses. Do you care what I have to say o. The matter? Not if it's "He said starsenses = modconfirmed town" no. LMAO That's the worst shit I've ever seen. No it isn't. It is in fact a great way to read grush. He has never used STARSENSES as scum. He has been scum and not used STARSENSES he is very invested in being confirmed town with that breadcrumb, grush doesn't trust his own play to keep him safe and values the crumb as it keeps him alive as town. Vayesh thinks that any man of reason or sense could transfer this concept from an old world and make it work for his alternate personality of this world. I am not saying this to agree with Prome. I am saying this because it was an item raised in Mafia LIX. One player instantly called Grush scum due to him unveiling starsenses. He was town (as in all prior starsenses claims)... I dont trust the claim to be town; but it does put him down the D1 priority pecking list for me. one world is not enough to validate a truth the man of prom is implying. However the annuls will record that the mask of the bovine has declared a correct statement. The rushing man is not in danger of the deathmachines for now. He is intentionally making a point to put his mark on a lot of different people. He seems somewhat supportive of the Prom lynch, but again, it's hard to tell, he's not committing to anything. He's largely contributing very little, but casting his little doubts upon enough people that eventually, one has to stick. I would not be sad to see VayeshMoru die. @Dr.H: How confident are you in either/or/both Prome and Vivax being scum? Are you going to continue to push them until the end of the day? I know Prome can't defend himself at this point, and I feel Vivax has not done a good job of defending himself (but last game I was convinced Vivax was scum, and I was dead wrong, so I'm being a bit more wary this time around).
Here we also notice something that was noticed by me earlier in the day: He says "I know Prome can't defend himself at this point", which doesn't make sense cause Prom didn't announce his absence for a certain timespan, he just posted his last post telling us he'd catch a jet and that his future internet connection would be bad.
He says it's obvious that Prom is getting killed and also emphasizes that again after his death, but he never, I repeat never commented or guessed Prom's alignment during the day, but constantly attacked those who could be considered the less vocal townies about his lynch. This is a scumtrait, scum is afraid to attack vocal townies cause they are likely to draw them into a longer discussion where they are likely to slip the alignment.
tl dr: Jcarl attacked "easy" people attacking Prom, choice of targets suggests scum, didn't comment on Prom once despite being obvious lynch.
Coming up tomorrow: Jcarl and Chezinu
On March 01 2013 11:50 jcarlsoniv wrote:
Gettin' real tired of your shit, Chez
Only thing that could be seen as an alignment guess by jcarl.
On March 01 2013 12:57 jcarlsoniv wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2013 12:53 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On March 01 2013 12:49 jcarlsoniv wrote:On March 01 2013 12:47 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On March 01 2013 12:45 WaveofShadow wrote:On March 01 2013 12:37 grush57 wrote:
##Shoot: Chezinu
##Vote: Toadesstern
These 2 are scum... I hate my brain. + Show Spoiler +Oh god what if we have 2 dayvigs or if some retarded reason Chez is town and DrH just baited the mafia dayvig into shooting.....aaaaaaghWIFOMMMMMMM If Chezinu gets shot by a second dayvig and isn't scum then we have confirmed the other dayvig as scum. If Chezinu is the town dayvig, the mafia dayvig will never claim and can never use his KP and he'll be confirmed town in my eyes. Too big a risk to take as scum, since if he were the scum dayvig he would have the foresight to see that the town dayvig would just shoot him. Does that make sense? If he is the town dayvig he can do this to confirm his role and force the mafia dayvig into not using his shot because it would reveal scum. Are we never going to talk about toadesstern today Why are you necessarily making the assumption that there is 1 town dayvig and 1 scum dayvig? Why couldn't there be 2 town dayvig? Quite possible. But because scum has no prior knowledge of the setup I don't think they would use this shot in response to early Day 2 pressure because fear of counterclaim. If there is no other claim, I'm inclined to let Chezinu live for now but for balance reasons I think scum having 1 dayvig and town having none is incredibly unlikely. It is probably either 2 in favor of town or 1:1. Either way it would be a more productive way of dealing with Chezinu right now. I'm not sure I can be accused of defending him when I'm asking for him to be shot. Ok...I think I'm following. I'm not disagreeing with ridding of Chez. What I'm disagreeing with is the thought process that if Chez flips green, that automatically makes grush red.It makes him look worse, sure. But it is just as likely that grush could be green and trying to jump on the opportunity to rid of Chez thinking he's scum. Hypothetical: Wouldn't a scum dayvig know that Chez is green, and shooting him would reveal that? This makes it seem, in my mind at least, that grush is town just knowing that he wouldn't out himself as a vig if he were scum. ...I think my train of thought it followable
Try to find a tentative read of Chezinu until the point where he says this. But he felt it's ok to speculate about connections to give a townread on grush and look like contributing when he didn't even guess openly was Chez' alignment was.
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Since people seem to be around, is everyone else in agreement that apparently I need to die D6? Haven't heard anyone else's thoughts on the matter really, and that association case by Mocsta seems so unbelievably weak in comparison to his well thought out and logical case on Vivax.
I still say it's Soniv and I'm stickin' widdit, by gum.
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DrH you base your assumptions on the hosts telling scum how to play correctly when they didn't do the same for the jailer. Even in the case that they were helped by the hosts (which is unlikely) we can't exclude they withheld a shot to frame me.
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On March 09 2013 09:34 Vivax wrote:
...
I'll just repeat my argument: Nothing stopped me from claiming being roleblocked all the time or shooting someone like hassy instead of a teammate. Scum knew I wasn't going to be RBd, so I don't know what happened to their shot, they might have framed me by withholding KP knowing I would shoot, which is now working just fine.
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The trouble is that scum must have thought JungleJorge would JK someone and so the lack of scum KP would be blamed on that. It would be impossible to know even after the JK'd player was flipped that scum KP hadn't been lost by a shot either on or from the JK target. So this plan from scum wouldn't actually accomplish anything.
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Hosts will definitely hang around the scum qt, it's too much to individually PM every blue role but ive never played a game as a host or a scum where the host didn't actively seek out mafia actions
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yea host never pms blues in my experience
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On March 09 2013 09:38 Aquanim wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2013 09:34 Vivax wrote:
...
I'll just repeat my argument: Nothing stopped me from claiming being roleblocked all the time or shooting someone like hassy instead of a teammate. Scum knew I wasn't going to be RBd, so I don't know what happened to their shot, they might have framed me by withholding KP knowing I would shoot, which is now working just fine.
...
The trouble is that scum must have thought JungleJorge would JK someone and so the lack of scum KP would be blamed on that. It would be impossible to know even after the JK'd player was flipped that scum KP hadn't been lost by a shot either on or from the JK target. So this plan from scum wouldn't actually accomplish anything.
I don't know honestly. The other option I could think of is that JJ lied cause he was convinced that I'm scum and wanted to bet everything on that card. It's highly unlikely if it's indeed Sandro but I can't exclude it given the circumstances.
I fakeclaimed DT in one of my first games and said I got a red check on the scum godfather so the scumteam basically tilted but they managed to get me lynched still and won the game.
Other more likely option than a lying JJ is that scum didn't send night actions to the right host but it's not being accepted as option.
Well it's probably inevitable that I go at this point. The night actions frame me too strongly so you have my seal of approval for my own lynch, just don't forget to lynch jcarl afterwards,also tell Mr. House I had found the last snow globe.
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If you're town it's never an impossible argument, just an excuse to waste a day of talking
keep pushing jcarl then
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the one thing making me doubt is a scum gambit to fakeclaim vig it doesnt make sense to fake the roleblock on night 1 unless you wanted to wait until it was the right time to bus with the shot
oh well thats a WIFOM argument I guess, but this is how I think
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Vivax, jcarl, Wos, Aquanim.
in those 4 yes
##Vote: Vivax
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if vivax is scum where is town KP?
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So, did anyone take another look at TestSubject like I asked?
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On March 08 2013 09:27 grush57 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2013 09:26 JungleJorge wrote:On March 08 2013 09:21 Vivax wrote:
I'm also hearing some noise in the background is that a voice? It sounds stupid. I wasn't stupid when i told people toad was scum despite him claiming vig n1 and everyone saying "yolo toad is town fo sho". Then risk hammering mafia d1 and I say fuck that the dude is scum and he was. Weren't you on toad's team when he pulled this off and everyone thought that was the best play ever? Oh right you were. Now go kill me cuz I don't want to read this game any longer. JJ is scum yes? Sandroba is acting different and being a jailor and sandroba = insta die
On March 09 2013 10:09 grush57 wrote:
Vivax, jcarl, Wos, Aquanim.
in those 4 yes
##Vote: Vivax
I want to lynch Grush, I really do. I said his meta makes him look town but I also know from reading him that he is aware of his town meta and actively (or as actively as can be done with his posting style) emulates it as scum. Now he's calling out a list I would like to believe is at least 3/4 town and is willing to lynch any of them. Please consider a Grush lynch today.
And yes I am aware of what DocH said about scum targeting Grush since it's easy but he's here pushing now without even the courtesy of dot-point reasoning and I'm just not gonna tolerate it.
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Oh I forgot to add ObviousOne to the list.
He is much worse as town and he is pretty inactive.
Not OMGUS I just forgot about him.
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But seriously guys. Kill grush.
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EPT
