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On February 07 2013 13:06 Djodref wrote:
In this game, random lynching would have around 31% chance to hit mafia on day 1 !
From my point ow view, it is a good as one chance over three. It's far better than our expected chance to lynch mafia. That's why I thought that his game was good to experiment with random lynching. It turns out that I had bad luck with my randomization with Oats. The goal was to generate discussion, but it also kinda failed >.<
Djodref, I already explained. I did a randomization as well. and it listed you for lynch.
Why can I not follow through with that? Why cant my RNG on you, be a valid medium for discussion.
The day you tell me that you are willing to lynch yourself UNCONTESTED if your name pops up on the RNG, is the day I will actually give it real thought as a mechanism to fight scum.
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Well im still waiting for Djo feedback on my JX question
On February 07 2013 13:05 Mocsta wrote:
@Djodref
Considering JX and you have a commonality ( a vote interest on me)
What do you make of JX case on me. Do you agree with it?
Do you think this is the substantial contribution of a town player? If so, i would like to know what I am missing that you see clearly.
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On February 07 2013 13:07 jaybrundage wrote:
I actually think that Djo brings up a decent point about Mocsta tho. Mocsta was calling out Oats for being scummy and doing scummy things. But then he comes around and calls him townie and is then after convinced that Oats is townie. I think its very possible from the beginning that he knew that Oats was townie. He tried to sling some shit on him and paint him as red. But when he saw that he wasn't gonna win he backed down from Oats knowing that he was town and gave him a townie read.
Jay,
this is the last I am going to speak on the matter
I already went through the town/scum oats/mocsta options here
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=395690¤tpage=21#418
The crux is; me/oats butt heads regardless of alignment & we both take each others comments some-what personally.
i.e. us feuding is NOT alignment indicative. HOW we feud IS alignment indicative.
Even Oats acknowleges this
On February 07 2013 13:07 Oatsmaster wrote:
Well Mocsta is playing DIFFERENTLY than in XXXV, so Im not saying that he isnt scum, Im saying that that is not the reason that he is scum if he actually is scum.
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If you want a geneal recap
When I stopped trolling and posted genuine thoughts
This is me:
On February 06 2013 12:04 Mocsta wrote:
TL;DR
I dont think this game is as simple as "lynch the scummiest person". We know from every single game played, there is usually a mislynch. This game is even harder, as without any blue roles to aid in "confirming townies" greater effort must be put in to avoid continuation mislynches - scum hunting must always take precedence.
As such, Oats, I think you are missing the point of this game; and should re-read my post that I linked above.
This is Oats response
On February 06 2013 12:10 Oatsmaster wrote:
What are you even saying?
BLABLABLA
lets lynch the scummiest person.
Seriously thats all you are saying.
....
I never said Oats flamed me; but the above is NOT a comment I am going to walk away from.
I already said, perhaps my retort "to replace" crossed the line of acceptability, but, I have seen much worse reactions to stubbornness in forum-mafia.
I really think this feud is being over-inflated. The question, by over-sensitive townies, or scum looking to create havok.
My tip is #2; the townies in this game have enough experience under the belt to recognise when two town players butt heads with stubbornness. Which leaves scum creating havok. on why this topic is still even being discussed
IIRC its Djo who is still pushing this agenda;
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@All
Do you actually find genuine town motivations for Djo constantly pushing this feud between Oats and myself back into the limelight?
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On February 07 2013 13:23 Djodref wrote:
The problem I have with you is not only the fact that you were flaming with Oats, defending yourself or whatever.
I don't see any reason for a town player to make these kind of comments if you don't honestly believe Oats is scum.
I want to tell you that you didn't address my point at all, that is you either gave advice to Oats to not looking scummy, either you painted him in read, and you don't explain your motivation for doing this.
Seriously, am I the only one who was surprised when Mocsta had a town read on Oats after all this ?
Are you saying all town players have to love each other? As I keep saying, ppl like me and Oats are going to prodding at each other every game regardless of alignment. We simply do not like each other, and we have not even met.
Im having trouble stomaching why you can not accept that; it actually really as intentionally misconstruing the feud.
As for being surprised I called Oats town; i think your quote below from me is indicative of what I thought. He was scum or bad town. When i was later asked to give a read, I considered everything and siad leaning town; a bad town player is town none-the-less. You have actually proven the basis of my read/decision and done the leg work for me. Thank you Djo.
On February 06 2013 13:39 Mocsta wrote:
A town player does it, because this is a challenging game, and we need to avoid mislynches.
So far, your play is about reacting to minute details in early-game posts trying to promote discussion. You are trying to shit all over them, without providing additional avenues for discourse. There is nothing solid in your play so far.
This leads me to think:
(1) You are bad townie / scummy townie - don't know any better
(2) You are bored - trying to troll
(3) You are scum - trying to derail
You don't typically try to troll; so its (1) or (3).
The win-con for town is to lynch all (3); and I already suggested prior we need to improve post quality to reduce the number of (1)s. Hence, either way, your current behaviour is a problem for town.
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On February 07 2013 13:23 Djodref wrote:
Regarding JieXian, his case his utter-bullshit, but he wants to lynch you and he is usually a lynch-bait. So I'm not going to worry about him unless he shows no interest in finding scum later on like last game.
Riddle me this.
If JX is lynch-bait for an "utter-bullshit case"; then why are you advocating Palmar again?
Why are you not giving him a chance to find scum "later"
Why are you being inconsistent; and sticking up for a 1 post lurker with bullshit case, vs 3 post troll with unfulfilled promise(s)
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On February 07 2013 13:25 jaybrundage wrote:
@Mocsta if you could rate your scum play 1-10 what would you rate it.
For newbies (the only time I was scum) I think 7 or 8.
I cracked under the pressure of constantly keeping up to date with the thread, and made a really *really* dumb case. Thats the essence of how I got lynched.
For this league, I would think 5 or 6.
As scum, I will never lurk; I cant do it. I get too bored.
Some of the vets here seem to pick up on some wild stuff that turns out to be right, so I assume with my activity I would get caught, hence the drop to 5 or 6.
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Note, I dont try to be leader in the big league. Theres too many vets, and they dont give a shit on opinions of low-exp guys.
Mafia LIX the only time I felt like I had thread prescence was the cycle when i was masoned with the mayor.
Newbies is different, the playing field is relatively equal and it ;presents a real chance to impose leadership and direction.
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On February 07 2013 13:51 jaybrundage wrote:@Mocsta Everyone assumes that scum is shitty so they over simplify things. In my last scum game me and Xatalos headbutted all day against each other with seemingly all the conviction in the world. Show nested quote +Mocsta said
Oats town, Mocsta scum: This is the situation in Newbie 35; and is the meta argument both Oats and Yamato presented. This has been refuted by myself already, in addition to several others who (I assume) are not aware of my meta. It is clear my tone in addressing Oats is not with the intention to flame. This is refuted. I disagree with this. It could easily be argued that you were trying to flame. Telling someone LOL NUB UNINSTALL to paraphase is pretty flamy if you ask me. Also you voted for yamato but now it seems your attention has shifted to Djo now whos is your top scum read. Also what about you top town read.
Fair questions. I think you are forgetting that you and Xatalos have significantly more experience than Oats and I.
But yes, i can see why that opinion would be fresh in your mind.
I already said that one comment perhaps crossed the line; and as I also said, I have seen much worse commentary from others (in other games).. if it was that serious, I am sure the mods would have warned me, so I think ppl are really over-inflating it. Fact is, he was being stubborn and frustrated me enough to make a comment like that. It happens, I acknowledged it, move on.
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My top scum read is still yamato, hence the vote remains: I dont like he is avoiding commenting on my case; BUT, I will admit, as town I have done the same action to ppl making a scum case on me. Marv pulled me into line on that in the obs QT.
As for Djo, I think he is the instigator of keeping the oats/mocsta feud alive. Even oats said the behaviour isnt indicative of my known scum meta; and he was the guy directly involved.
P.S. I have tried fueding with scum partner before (newbie XXXV me n spaghetticus had some (scum qt planned) banter at each other; went VERy different to that of me n oats this game.
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As for top town read: Personally I got a good vibe from Sl00sh; Breaking the feud is not alignment indicative (as easy town cred points).. BUT, the way he went about it, re-directed discussion and pursued yamato for conversation was something I thought easily explained by town motives.
If you contrast with Phagga, he tried to interject, but then commented on the situation (the replace comment) adding further fuel to the fire, by keeping the conversation going. This is null to me, perhaps as town he felt strong enough to ask about it; at the same time, he didnt actually stop the feud, he just temporarily interjected.
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On February 07 2013 14:06 Djodref wrote:
ahhh, ok, I see what you mean now. No, I did the math while writing the post. I didn't want to discuss about Oats when he prompted me for it because I didn't want to lynch him anymore at that point but I didn't want to admit that my random pick was bad yet.
OK, so the RNG contributions are useless. I remove that from your filter, and what am I left with?
(1) Over-inflating commentary between me n oats
(2) Pushing for Palmar; with a one-track mind.
(3) Defending JX by way of lynch-bait.
Also known as sweet fuck all.
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(2)
You mention hero mini. What about LVIII, regardless of actions he was still town.
I am not sticking up for him, hes leaning scum to me for the lack of contributions.
My point is, I have others I think are probably scum; Is not the intention to lynch the person you think has the HIGHEST chance to flip red?
(3)
Nothing you said about JX convinces me what he has contributed can be attributed to town motive.
I acknowledge, he is lynch-bait when town, but I havent seen him be so blatant scummy as a first post in any of his games yet either. If you can explain town motives for his post (emphasis on NO plural), I am all ears.
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On February 07 2013 14:39 Djodref wrote:
(1) -You have failed to properly address my point against you multiple time, you answers are deliberately missing the fact that your attacks against Oats were unjustified from a town point of view. You attack someone if you think he is scum, not to have a feud because you have different ways of playing the game nor giving hints on his scum meta.
I learnt my lesson yesterday and am walking away from this as of now.
I have answered the question(s) at hand several times to multiple parties; its simple, you do not like my answers.
However you are making zero effort to manifest your question with a different approach.
i.e. You keep asking the same question, I keep giving the same answer.
Either: - Lead with a case and a vote, or;
- accept what I am saying and move on.
The choice is that simple.
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I have been taking this time off to re read the thread.
I ended up beefing up my palmar read due to him responding to VE pressure.
This acknowledges he IS reading the thread and is making an active choice to troll like this.
I have to re read yamato filter before deciding if i want to swap votes though.
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On February 07 2013 17:58 VisceraEyes wrote:
As I said earlier, I'm very very interested in clearing out the trash, being players who signed up and aren't playing. Right now that list is:
Palmar
prplhz
Snarfs
JX
There's no way in hell they're all scum. Here's what I want to do. I think everyone should choose one name off that list that they believe is the most realistic lynch candidate based on what they perceive to be town sentiment. Then I want them to explain why they aren't voting for that person, and explain in detail why their lynch candidate is better.
OK, i re-read the game, and changed my opinions on quite a few things.
Thoughts
Who I am not voting:
Snarfs
Yes the vote on VE is weird; but he seems to have some sort of bone to pick with VE in general (if you include the pre-game banter). Yes he sits in the middle, but I cant tell yet whether its an analytical guy trying to get all the facts; or a scum trying not to take a position. That he was willing to vote someone he knows, and keen to observe two people he doesnt know, makes me lean towards analytical guy. I need more, so hes null for me.
JieXian
I still have some serious problems with his sole contribution.
Also, that he hasnt entered the game at all since that post, and he is the same timezone as me is a bit of a concern.
However, his case on me, was entered quite late @ night (like 1/2am). He is leaning scum for me, but I dont know how comfortable I am recommending a lynch with only one post, regardless of how shithouse it is.
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Between Palmar and prplhz I was a bit stuck. i dont like either, but because Palmar voted prplhz i am hesitant to think they are both scum, so its one or the other. (im ruling out bus, because its a fuckn weird way to bus).
My main gripes with Palmar:
-lack of thread input
- acknowledges VE pressure, by responding to that (and nothing else)
As said before, this shows he is keeping up to date with the thread, and is choosing not to interact with us. That is a problem.
My gripes with prplhz
(Post 1)
On February 06 2013 21:50 prplhz wrote:
Oatsmaster, Mocsta: Stop focusing on each other. Just by your activity neither of you are up for lynch right now so stop focusing on each other.
Whatever useful you could be doing by arguing with each other you've done it by now so quit it and stop messing the thread up. It is bloating the thread and for hardly any reason. Take a deep breath and a step back and focus on something else,
if you want better reads on each other then just reread your discussion, I'm sure there's something you missed..
Here he breaks up the fight which is NOT alignment indicative.
The problem is how he does it. He focuses on activity as a reason to stop the fight. Hes not addressing what me and Oats are having issues about (unlike others who also tried to break the fight). In fact, his reasoning is related to image. Your activity (image) is sufficient to not lynch you today. Isn't it scum who are constantly worried about image when it comes to lynches?
It is also weird, he says "im sure theres something you missed" as if he thinks we are both town. He hasnt justified we are both town in any way, shape or form; so its as if, he knows we are town
(Post 2)
He defends oats (by request of Djo) as a town read; by virtue of "fervor and insight". Odd, fervor agreed. insight, I dont think anyone here has said oats has tried to input insight into this game; its as if he got confused between me and oats; which indicates lack of care when reading.
The other problem is as already pointed out, he lashes out the town read, but where is the scum read?
(Post 3)
Banter with palmar after the vote. waste of a post, but could be made from any alignment.
(Post 4)
So after all the happenings in the thread with me/oats, djo/RNG etc, palmar/vote (prplhz); prplhz last contribution is in line with sl0osh questioning of yamato.
On February 07 2013 04:39 prplhz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2013 04:10 yamato77 wrote:
So, I'm mafia because I won't tell you why I think phagga might be town?
Dude, just tell him now. You don't want slOosh and his case on your back today because you're going to end up getting lynched. The case is pretty decent and I'd say you stand a good chance of getting lynched today, or at the very least you're going to attract a lot of attention to yourself which is not something we generally want out of a townie on day 1. So just say what you found in phagga's filter that makes you see him as town in spite of how he has done things that put you on to your main scum read. Your excuse that you wont say because "mafia will just talk about it" doesn't hold. Your read is absolutely void unless you can explain it to other people in this thread so get going please.
I had to read this a few times, because at first, when I was in the heat of the moment I thought it was a fair question to yamato. But the more I read it, the more I dont like it.
(a)Why is he jumping in to white knight sl0Osh? prplhz still hasnt given a scum read; and has only given a town read on oats. This is an odd post to choose to contribute with.
(b) Why is he trying to threaten/bully Yamato into giving this information out (by saying.. hey you dont want sl0oish on ya case). He could have just said the last line "read is void, unless you can explain it"
(c) The most off putting is "which is not something we generally want out of a townie". This is nit picking into English language, but the phrasing is not from a 1st person perspective. Its actually referencing townie as a separate object. In this case, as scum; town is a separate object.
I think if town to town were interacting it would read "generally town do not want this to happen day 1"..
So yes, based on the above, prplhz has made a conscious effort to not divulge scum reads; has not provided any insight; he reasons for stopping the fight were based on reasonings aligned with image; and has not been present in the thread since.
##Vote: prplhz
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On February 07 2013 18:47 JieXian wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2013 04:33 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: Mocsta, idk, most of these day 1 Hapa-DP-esque things usually ends up in both being town.
Thing is, they are neither Hapa nor DP. Going to take a nap and catch up later.
Whoah WTF
So the case is real now is it?
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On February 07 2013 18:56 phagga wrote:
sniped by JX, but doesn't really change anything for my vote for now.
Sorry, why would that exchange from JX make you even consider changing your vote?
If anything, its adding to his scumminess vibe?
<Lurks all day>
<Comes in, takes a pop shot>
<Leaves>
WTF is that.
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right now after jx latest post he is equal to me with prplhz. Im happy to vote for which of the two is vote leader.
Phagga since u r online. What do u make of my points against prplhz?
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Prplhz surely it doesnt take an hour to read 3 pages.
I am keen to hear your thoughts
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On February 07 2013 21:41 Oatsmaster wrote:
We are lynching people because they are LURKING.
Understand prp? What makes it worse is that he should know that lurking DOES NOT help town and thus, if he is town, he is playing against his wincon.
Oats, you advocating Palmar lynch.
Can I have your thoughts on Prplhz/JX please.
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On February 07 2013 21:56 yamato77 wrote:
Can anyone come up with a good reason to not lynch JX?
I cant.
Between him and prplhz I will vote for whoever is leading.
Im surprised prplhz felt the need to consult with sl0osh before addressing the points I raised against him.
The only town point I can think for prplhz is that I havent seen someone roll scum two games in a row.
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On February 07 2013 11:31 jaybrundage wrote:
Palmar is a very strong town player. I have played a decent number of games with him. If he is town scum will want to try to kill him asap. But in this set up they can't unless they lead a mislynch on him. Whether it be via a normal day mislynch or a mislynch in a nomination day. I actually haven't played with scum palmar So maybe I don't really consider the possibility of him being scum.
But I can judge palmar by his results if he doesnt lead the town to some good scum lynches ill be willing to lynch him. But given who he is I give him more leeway then I would others.
@Jay, am I reading this correctly.
You would consider voting "prplhz" to ascertain whether Palmar is looking to flip scum?
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On February 07 2013 22:32 prplhz wrote:Something rubs me the wrong way about jaybrundage and his case on Djodref. No one else really reacted strongly to Djodref's silly random vote because everybody knew what it was: some sort of scheme to draw out scum. Pretty rediculous but at least he doing something. jaybrundage also acknowledges this himself here but he still uses it as a reason to vote Djodref. This gives him a place to put his vote and even though he's since gradually recanted this (like here), he hasn't unvoted. It seems like he is trying to keep the Djodref door open while not pushing it and not wanting to actually push anything else. It doesn't seem like a townie thinking "fuck yea, i nailed this cracker and it's so obvious! now i just have to get everybody else to listen to me!", more like "cool, i can just put my vote on him and then chill". How do you guys feel about jaybrundage?
I have to disagree.
I actually thought Jay identified the same lack of conviction I felt with Djo.
I took the approach: Djo needs to consider himself if he wants to be serious about RNG - (Djo ignored this pressure.)
Jay pressured along the same lines, but more detailed - The outcome: Djo caved in and admitted he wasnt trying to follow through with it as he felt Oats was town.
I think this was a more than valid lead to follow.
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EPT
