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grush57
Korea (South)2582 Posts
On January 27 2013 11:57 Dandel Ion wrote: btw, I lol'd IRL when Xata tried to justify his meta read with kush's witchcraft filter, but quoted posts that were not from witchcraft, but from the chinese grammar micro mafia. And nobody checked. oh geez | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
On January 27 2013 11:57 Dandel Ion wrote: btw, I lol'd IRL when Xata tried to justify his meta read with kush's witchcraft filter, but quoted posts that were not from witchcraft, but from the chinese grammar micro mafia. And nobody checked. I didn't check cause I straight up disagreed lol | ||
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Xatalos
Finland9675 Posts
On January 27 2013 11:57 Dandel Ion wrote: btw, I lol'd IRL when Xata tried to justify his meta read with kush's witchcraft filter, but quoted posts that were not from witchcraft, but from the chinese grammar micro mafia. And nobody checked. Wut :O This is Witchcraft alright: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=386816&user=200457¤tpage=2 | ||
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Promethelax
Canada7089 Posts
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
On January 27 2013 12:02 Promethelax wrote: Where Kush was town! kush was scum in Witchcraft. Remember all the fighting with Djo? | ||
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Promethelax
Canada7089 Posts
On January 27 2013 12:04 Keirathi wrote: kush was scum in Witchcraft. Remember all the fighting with Djo? Not in Chinese grammar mini micro mafia bough. He was town there. | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
On January 27 2013 12:05 Promethelax wrote: Not in Chinese grammar mini micro mafia bough. He was town there. But the quotes Xata used were actually from Witchcraft. | ||
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Dandel Ion
Austria17960 Posts
Where kush was town. He talked to me in some parts you quoted, and I didn't play in witchcraft. he was scum in witchcraft then, that was later in the thread :D I remember cause i totally carried that (pre)game. | ||
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Xatalos
Finland9675 Posts
On January 27 2013 11:49 wherebugsgo wrote: well there were a few things. one, your vote didn't ever move. If you had doubts like I thought you did, I expected your vote to move. That was relatively minor but it had been nagging at me and I never actually expressed that because I had assumed you were town the entire time. Bad assumption to make on my part. second, the argument for kush being town made no sense in the context of any of the three games, and the fact that you kept telling me to read the game despite the fact that you had no actual evidence to support your meta argument suggested to me you either had confirmation bias or you were bullshitting me. Either some sort of trap (to see whether I was scum) or that you were scum. When I asked you for the explanation and you never gave one, I became more suspicious. When you finally gave those 4 posts and still called kush trollish in this game, I knew there was something wrong. There was no reason to believe kush was trollish this game, and the two posts you cited in support of calling him trollish weren't indicative of anything at all. Truly though, even though I rationalized my read on you with the RBs that was more me trying to come up with some reason as to why I would be wrong about you. I never actually thought you were town from your posts, I only thought you were town because everyone else said so and because there had to be a reason they thought so. I simply assumed it after the n2 roleblock where I thought that scum might not risk it knowing there are more blues. Having seen Hapa claim the RB I should have been more suspicious. I was at some point questioning that but again I didn't think you would waste your RB the entire game (unless you didn't have one and were faking it) Hmm. Could you explain the first part? Wasn't it logical to keep my vote on grush as he was my "strongest scumread"? Wouldn't it have been instead scummy to move my vote to a lesser scumread like Lazer or Jay? It was mostly a feel thing... Granted, I knew his alignment which made me look more convinced than I really should have shown, but it's true that Kush was more diplomatic there (especially in the beginning) and not diplomatic at all in this game (even though he only played in the beginning). I just thought I'd go with that feeling and try to make myself more townie by showing that I "cared" about the lynch. I obviously took it too far, but I think it was better than to sheep. | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
On January 27 2013 12:07 Dandel Ion wrote: Witchcraft had a "game" going on pregame - Chinese Grammar micro mafia. Where kush was town. He talked to me in some parts you quoted, and I didn't play in witchcraft. he was scum in witchcraft then, that was later in the thread :D Ohhhhh, yea I forgot about that. | ||
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Xatalos
Finland9675 Posts
On January 27 2013 12:07 Dandel Ion wrote: Witchcraft had a "game" going on pregame - Chinese Grammar micro mafia. Where kush was town. He talked to me in some parts you quoted, and I didn't play in witchcraft. he was scum in witchcraft then, that was later in the thread :D I remember cause i totally carried that (pre)game. Lol, really? Well, I'm glad nobody bothered to dig deeper into this :D I would have been in trouble for having such a strong opinion based on lazy and false reasoning. | ||
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jaybrundage
United States3921 Posts
time | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
On January 27 2013 12:07 Xatalos wrote: Hmm. Could you explain the first part? Wasn't it logical to keep my vote on grush as he was my "strongest scumread"? Wouldn't it have been instead scummy to move my vote to a lesser scumread like Lazer or Jay? It was mostly a feel thing... Granted, I knew his alignment which made me look more convinced than I really should have shown, but it's true that Kush was more diplomatic there (especially in the beginning) and not diplomatic at all in this game (even though he only played in the beginning). I just thought I'd go with that feeling and try to make myself more townie by showing that I "cared" about the lynch. I obviously took it too far, but I think it was better than to sheep. by itself it didn't mean much but as a townie in this type of situation I would expect doubt more than assuredness. grush exemplified that, and I could actually understand that if he were town why he would be saying the things he would be saying. So, even though I was really frustrated at what he had done all game and why basically most players in his situation would have to be lynched for what he did, his play made sense from a town perspective. From a logical perspective (since you asked about what it would have been logical to do) I think it varies slightly from player to player depending on their own biases toward the game and whatnot, but from my own experience, your job as town is to try and make sense of things. There were very many reasons to be confused in this situation and I wasn't convinced you were actually questioning the same things I was. I couldn't pin that on you simply not understanding the situation as town or whether you were scum at first, but as time went on closer to deadline I was becoming more and more suspicious. Partly the reason I just flat out afked an hour before deadline was because I was mad, but also because I knew that if you were scum there was absolutely nothing I could do. There were strong signs you were and I just didn't have the drive, I was mentally exhausted at that point. I was simply broken, I couldn't bring myself to think logically and I needed to stop myself from raging so hard I'd do something much stupider than I had already. I was mostly mad at myself for not trusting my earlier reads, what jay was saying didn't really have that much of an impact (though that was a pretty neat strategy ^^) I'll have to work on that in the future; I've been working on it for several months now and sometimes I can stay calm and sometimes I just can't. I'm not really sure what triggers it, tbh. As for the meta stuff, here's what I'll say about it, with a short prelude and some other explanation, if anyone really cares, you can read it, if not, don't. I'm going to say this now since I don't plan on doing this in the future and so I don't think this will affect my games. Ever since Space Station Mafia (if anyone here remembers that) in April I've been requesting town. I actually requested town a couple times before that too but not as regularly as I have been since. So for the last ~9 months I've been rolling town partly because of luck (some hosts have denied my requests) and mostly because I've been requesting it. I wanted to get better at scumhunting, and I think I am better at using meta now than I was before. I think it's a crucial tool and I am very very confident that players like Foolishness, sandro, Radfield, syllo, etc. would agree with me that correct use of meta often helps you catch mafia and separate townies from mafia much more quickly than otherwise. I had a short conversation with GMarshal once during one of my earliest games, maybe my third or fourth here on the forum, something like a year and a half or more ago. I asked him why he was smurfing, as I had seen him smurf in several games at the time, and IIRC he asked me if I could guess. I said well, if you're smurfing then no one really knows who you are and they can't use past games to determine your alignment. He said exactly, meta matters. We had some sort of conversation about how meta is used or misused and whatnot (I don't really remember the details) but that phrase stuck with me ever since; meta matters. Well, with kush here I think our conversation about his meta exemplified that you, for whatever reason, did not understand why the situation did not make kush (and by extension Lazer) town or scum based on meta alone. I ignored meta with regards to kush (I could have used it more specifically with Lazer but I wasn't feeling comfortable with his meta tbh) because I did not feel like the context of this game allowed for an adequate comparison between this game and Witchcraft. It didn't even provide an adequate comparison between this game and the newbie game, though it was a slightly better comparison. It was still bad, but I thought it might make kush slightly more likely to be scum. My read on kush/Lazer wasn't based on meta though, and that's the problem. When you tried arguing that kush was trolling in this game and he wasn't in Witchcraft I sought your interpretation based on specifics, because simply making an assertion doesn't mean you've properly read into someone's past game history. When I didn't receive specifics I became suspicious. Either you were blinded, or you were scum. I became very suspicious when I saw you grasp at straws with those 4 posts you quoted, because I felt any reasonable townie would not characterized the two posts you quoted as trollish. I have tried "metaing" people as scum and it can work pretty effectively, though in this case you didn't really have any consequence to the flip because there wouldn't be one. If you want an example, I believe in Mini X I might have metaed a couple people, where I was scum. I think I did in Couple's Therapy as well (against chaoser). Obviously these are fake and you can find holes in them but if you're looking for a convincing way to "look town" I think you can find those types of plays in the scum games of players like BC and Ace. | ||
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jaybrundage
United States3921 Posts
Also WBG also while it was fun to insult you and such. I didn't mean anything by it. I could see you off your game and i saw the opportunity to get you @Keirathi I think this one was much better. Usually i just end up getting mislynched lol. | ||
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jaybrundage
United States3921 Posts
And the flavor XD so gud. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
On January 27 2013 14:08 jaybrundage wrote: @WBG I would like your opinion on my play as well as anyone else that would care to comment. Imma start checking out the obs QT I feel like i couldnt accurately convey how i wanted to play with my limited once a day at mcdonalds internet. Also WBG also while it was fun to insult you and such. I didn't mean anything by it. I could see you off your game and i saw the opportunity to get you @Keirathi I think this one was much better. Usually i just end up getting mislynched lol. I think your play was good but it will only work once I think lol :p I have no problem with what strategy you used, I think it's legitimate and it doesn't break any rules, so it's all good. Whatever happens in-game stays in-game, IMO. | ||
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jaybrundage
United States3921 Posts
On January 27 2013 14:46 wherebugsgo wrote: I think your play was good but it will only work once I think lol :p I have no problem with what strategy you used, I think it's legitimate and it doesn't break any rules, so it's all good. Whatever happens in-game stays in-game, IMO. Any tips on how i could of improved my play? | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
On January 27 2013 14:08 jaybrundage wrote: @WBG I would like your opinion on my play as well as anyone else that would care to comment. Imma start checking out the obs QT I feel like i couldnt accurately convey how i wanted to play with my limited once a day at mcdonalds internet. Also WBG also while it was fun to insult you and such. I didn't mean anything by it. I could see you off your game and i saw the opportunity to get you @Keirathi I think this one was much better. Usually i just end up getting mislynched lol. It depends on your definition of "better". I picked up on the mindset change almost immediately once you started getting votes on the last day and would have seriously questioned you about it. In recent town games, you have been like "But...but...I'm an easy mislynch! Don't mislynch me! I don't really have much and I've been (*insert whatever*), but I'mr eally town and the easiest mislynch ever!" whereas in this game you were...forceful...for lack of a better term, rather than pleading. But yes, it is a better strategy assuming you keep it up in your town games if you get into a situation where you're about to be lynched again  | ||
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jaybrundage
United States3921 Posts
On January 27 2013 15:19 Keirathi wrote: It depends on your definition of "better". I picked up on the mindset change almost immediately once you started getting votes on the last day and would have seriously questioned you about it. In recent town games, you have been like "But...but...I'm an easy mislynch! Don't mislynch me! I don't really have much and I've been (*insert whatever*), but I'mr eally town and the easiest mislynch ever!" whereas in this game you were...forceful...for lack of a better term, rather than pleading. But yes, it is a better strategy assuming you keep it up in your town games if you get into a situation where you're about to be lynched again Yay someone is here. Any tips on how I can improve my scum play | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
Like I said, the thing that made me think you were scum was your complete change in attitude when your neck was on the line. It's hard to pick out other things that you could have done differently in the last day. I think you and Xata played it well, and there was sufficient chaos and everyone looked bad in some way or another. But I've only played scum once, so its not like I'm a solid point of reference anyways | ||
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