EPTNewbie Mini Mafia XXXIV
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On December 24 2012 15:50 debears wrote: Townies that I coach seem to die n1....I don't get it LOl.. to be honest, i wish I asked you and Hapa more questions. But, I never knew what to ask  | ||
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On December 24 2012 16:13 Hapahauli wrote: I think the best way you can learn/correspond with a coach is to ask them for critical opinions on your reads/cases. It's a good safety-net against confirmation bias, and you get to see how an experienced player thinks about reads and tells. Thanks will try this next game. I just didnt think youbguys wanted to be bogged down with reading cases when your active in one or two games. Good to know we can pester. So will take better advantage. | ||
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I assume regardless of filled capacity this would start after newbie 33? Sorry its prob in the rules, but I am writing from p4 [Editted blue -> Green] | ||
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On December 31 2012 11:09 Spaghetticus wrote: This game will likely be a little less hectic with the number of people that played in XXXIII. We'll almost have an established meta :D NOO!!!!! the last game was way too inactive for my liking | ||
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Those opening questions are just small talk; I wouldnt be too concerned with it; anyone can go into another thread and copy/paste a response from a "confirmed" townie. | ||
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On December 31 2012 19:00 cakepie wrote: Including that bit about looking up a dictionary? <3 LOLs Nicely Played.  | ||
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On December 29 2012 14:23 cakepie wrote: If I /replacement will you put us in a "pastry" tier? (Just kidding. I'm still undecided if I'm up for anything right after xxxiii yet) C'mon Cakepie, we need a +1 and I am sure you want to do more dictionary retorts to me! We NEED you. | ||
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One more n00b, where art thou!! | ||
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On January 03 2013 03:29 Dandel Ion wrote: I'm gonna take it out when the game actually starts :O Filters are srs bsns after all. LOL For posterity (i can remove if wanted) Filters! cDgCorazon Mocsta OmniEulogy jampidampi zarepath Spaghetticus Sylencia StriX TeMiL the Hero 9/9 players remain! | ||
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On January 03 2013 04:27 Spaghetticus wrote: ... Late night, or just SUPER excited to play. LOL | ||
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Thats a fine start. but try here. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=389091#3 The first one is an excellent resource to have a read through. | ||
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Smurfs allowed in this? Regardless should prob vote Temil off Day 1 no matter what!  | ||
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On January 03 2013 10:36 cDgCorazon wrote: 1) Lynch all Lurkers or not? As promised ... I did promise I would quote Cakepie In all seriousness though: Now that I am aware of my alignment I can go ahead with my plan to hopefully reduce lurker play styles. My intention is every 12hrs, I will post a summary post which is going to give a count of every players posts in that interval. Depending on the effort required, I may also summarise how many I think are fluff, and how many are (IMHO) genuine attempts to scum hunt. My expectation is that this will highlight to all players: who is trying to contribute, and who is flying under the radar. The knock on effect is, this tool should help stimulate town discussion and present additional options for scum hunting, and person(s) to apply pressure. 2) How would the mafia try to get us to mislynch a townie? Simple. They will most likely do nothing. As evidenced in Newbie Mafia XXXIII, active townies were lynching townies who deviated from the status quo and built up confirmation bias until a wagon started. All the mafia had to do was stay silent, and let the townies do the work. This leads to a valid point raised by Spaghetticus in Newbie Mafia XXXIII. LASTLY 3) What time zone are you in? Can players please confirm time zone, so at least we can appreciate whether responses are not to be expected. I am +8 GMT (thus, deadline is 8am for me) | ||
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On January 03 2013 11:08 Spaghetticus wrote: My position is the opposite of Omni's. Lying is justifiable but lurking is not. Death to he who lurks! Interesting. I assume this aligns with your previous thoughts from Newbie Mafia XXXIII.. On December 19 2012 11:00 Spaghetticus wrote: For lying I am the same. In the one game I've played I lied to hide that I was a cop. If you lie this draws massive attention, but it's important to look for motive, intention, and possible outcomes as well. @Spaghetticus You believe lying as a blue power role is acceptable. I will not choose to debate this, it is your opinion. What I would like you to expand upon is the following: Obviously it is in the nature of mafia to lie. If you ask a mafia player.."Are you mafia", we can not expect them to reasonably answer "yes". Thus, if both YOU and the mafioso have an inclination to lie (as indicated above); How am I, or the remaining town players meant to reasonably differentiate you from the scum that surrounds town? | ||
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On January 03 2013 11:44 zarepath wrote: That is your prerogative, and I will not hold the "no-lynch" against you yet; due to your rational regarding town environment - I happen to agree.I would rather no-lynch on the first night than lynch lurkers, personally. I would think that first day lurkers in a newbie mafia game are more likely than not to be bored townies, especially considering the slow-roll start to this mafia game. I think that engaging in a Lynch Lurkers policy assumes that our town environment will be poor, and I'd rather simply create an environment without lurkers. I don't know how I feel about Mocsta's summary plan. I think people should be smart enough to realize who's contributing and who's not on their own, and a summary like that every twelve hours gives the impression of contributing without actually doing it. Very fair point. I was hoping someone would pick this up. I agree, summary posts like can be construed as "mock/scum" contributions [on the proviso, it is the only contribution] However, that is not the intent of the summary post. I agree whole-heartedly, that a lurker does not immediately suggest scum play. I also agree that it may indicate a bored townie. In fact, I am also in general alignment with your thoughts on town environment. I want to help facilitate a town atmosphere where: - we DO NOT just target (read: bandwagon) outspoken individuals - who typically will be townies. Rather, - we enable the identification of people are flying under the radar and question them. [In addition to ongoing scum hunting] I think this is a valid tool that can be used to re-enforce scum hunting. Thus,the summary post is a mechanism that *in theory should* enable us to identify suspicious person(s) to question further. The corollary is that it may also help identify people whose attitudes are town motivated. Ultimately, I plan to be an active participant in the town environment; I expect my actions to speak louder than words. | ||
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On January 03 2013 12:34 cDgCorazon wrote: Do you think it's something that only a townie would do? While we can certainly give Mocsta credit for keeping tabs on everyone, I wouldn't call it a town oriented move. I welcome it, but it would be a null point on my opinion of you Mocsta. @Corazon I guess you didn't read my wall text... let me requote it for you. On January 03 2013 12:11 Mocsta wrote: Ultimately, I plan to be an active participant in the town environment; I expect my actions to speak louder than words. Anyways, I don't want to waste further conversation on this. My point was to highlight I plan to create these summary posts, not to ask for approval. If there is constructive criticism of them after the first couple, I will open ears to discussion; however, for the time-being, I am going to implement what is in my head - and see if it works. Furthering matters, cDgCorazon, your a person who has a history for succumbing under pressure. So I am voting for you for 2 reasons. (1) I don't like your response. On January 03 2013 10:36 cDgCorazon wrote: 2) How would the mafia try to get us to mislynch a townie? I'll save this answer for after more people have discussed it. Why do you need to wait? What is the town motive behind this? (2) You have started the discussion, but it has largely been useless so far [ Bet you recognise this one, sorry for the in-joke]As for the way discussion REALLYstarts... someone throws down a vote. ##Vote: cDgCorazon You have proven (in the past game) that you can actively provide new approaches to old ideas. However, so far your posts have been a boring regurgitation of old content (of which you don't even fully address). | ||
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On January 03 2013 13:18 cDgCorazon wrote: However, your early pressure is not characteristic of scum, so this does give off a town read to me. I will give you that. Although there's no need to be firing a warning shot so early when only a handful of people are posting (or even know that the game is started.) (1) Its too early to be talking about town tells. In particular because "only a handful of people are posting" (2) Your overall response exhibits the calmness and reasoning of a townie, but on the other hand, your "pretend townie" mafia play has proven to be of a decent calibre. People say a Vanilla Townie may be bored as they have no "power". I disagree. During the Day, VTs/Blues/Mafia are all equal: with one VOTE to cast. Each as valid as the next one. The pressure of a lynch is nothing to laugh at, or throw recklessly. [This vote was not thrown recklessly] Out of respect for your last game, I will continue to exercise my right: to treat you with caution. Thus, the vote will remain. [I am at risk of flooding the thread so will take a breather] I hope someone from the USA shift uses this vote as a medium to engage more conversation with yourself. I conclude with: On January 03 2013 12:50 Mocsta wrote: As for the way discussion REALLYstarts... someone throws down a vote. | ||
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On January 03 2013 13:40 cDgCorazon wrote: Scum know who they are and get a QT immediately. (1) Corazon, if I was you, I wouldn't have bothered answering that. If you read the OP, its clear what the PM role details are, and does indeed state the Scum QT link. (2) Is it not curious, at this early stage in the game. Spag ALREADY feels the need to distance himself from being town PERCEIVED as knowledgable in "scum behaviour". Interesting indeed. @Spag. (1) Why would you not address this question to the mod? (2) The question you seek is common knowledge, again, accessible from the OP. Why did you choose to elucidate this? (3) Please use this opportunity to distance yourself from any other scum behaviours, you supposedly are not aware of. <Insert Scum Tools> | ||
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Questions to All Persons Intent: Discussion is quite slow at the moment. I have addressed questions to each participant to promote further conversation, whether directly to myself, or to others. Please take the time and respond to these accordingly. If you have qualms replying to my content, please notify myself and the rest of town, why you deem this unnecessary.
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Post Count Summary Intent: To identify participants "flying under the radar" and not actively contributing. The intent is not to provide a quality check on posts That onus falls upon all of town individually. Session 1 From: 03-Jan: 0930 To: 03-Jan: 2130 + Show Spoiler +
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On January 04 2013 08:17 zarepath wrote: I've felt active, but perhaps this has been in my head -- my filter doesn't seem to suggest I've been inactive. fluff post on phone. Get used to thinking your active but not. So much rereading in this game. Worse thing is when you spend 1hr on a post and before sending hit refresh and find out your 1hr post is not valid anymore.. I did it before with a 4hr case lol. Had to submit it out of principle!! Either way. U got me thinking. When i get time i am going to post a couple pointers that were passed to me last game. will post my thoughts on last 12hrs later when i have time. | ||
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On January 03 2013 23:25 zarepath wrote: In light of Spag's response (while I was writing my post), I'd like to elaborate on my read of Spag, but will await his forthcoming response to Mocsta's Q's. Meanwhile, I am checking a few other filters. zarepath: I am keen to hear your thoughts on Spaghetticus now that he has voiced his rebuttle. Please note, he has made 2 posts of defense. (1) is in relation to my questions to OmniEulogy. and the other (2) is in relation to my questions to Spaghetticus. | ||
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On January 04 2013 00:37 jampidampi wrote: My analysis on Mocsta + Show Spoiler + Leaning towards town Spaghetticus + Show Spoiler + Leaning towards town cDgCorazon + Show Spoiler + Leaning towards town Please note that the analysis on Spaghetticus was written before his post answearing questions. Jampidampi, Thank you for openly sharing your thoughts regarding these three players. My thoughts: + Show Spoiler + I have noticed they all come to the same conclusion; and are hinging upon active play in the thread. I think this is a fine start. As far as I am concerned, reads such as "leaning towards" can be swung back to null very quickly. Thus, I also appreciate you have not concluded anyone as "Confirmed" town. This is wise play as it is too early to confirm anyones motives (yes, I include myself in this if you were wondering). @Jampidampi You said you prefer a postcount to post quality ratio skewed in favour of post quality. Why does your post regarding these three people aid towns scumhunt? What makes this a "quality" post? The only other person you have identified in your contributions is StriX; the questions are vague at best however.
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Post Count Summary Intent: To identify participants ""flying under the radar"" and not actively contributing. The intent is not to provide a quality check on posts That onus falls upon all of town individually. Session 2 From: 03-Jan: 2130 To: 04-Jan: 0930 + Show Spoiler +
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Mocsta: Tools to Improve Town Play / Scum Hunt Disclaimer: This is a compendium of mafia knowledge available freely. I do not intend this to make me a pro-town read, as anyone can source quotes. Intent: To pass some of the tools I am aware of, to enable town players to scum hunt more effectively. This is not a guide on how to play, or why we act certain ways. I would be fooling myself if I thought I had that experience. For guides on mafia in general, see the original post, at the bottom is a plethora of newbie guides. Lastly, if you want to discuss the applicability of this, PM me, as the conversation will certainly not be "Newbie Mafia 34" related. 1. Preface + Show Spoiler + [Cakepie] There is never a good reason for town to lurk. Only by discussing our reasoning and lines of thought can we hope to find and eradicate scum. Town must never clam up for fear of making mistakes -- 1. it is through discussion that we may hope to correct errors in reasoning; and 2. more importantly, in the event of a mislynch, it would leave trail for others to follow. Hence, a silent townie is a far more useless than a bad townie. 2. Learnings from past game(s) + Show Spoiler + [Promethelax]Town: the main things you have to realize and learn from this game are 1) Never make connection cases before a flip Connections cases pre-flip will always lead you astray. 2) People who say things about how something will affect their image is often scum. 3) A townie's greatest job is not to scum hunt, it is to be obviously town and remove oneself from the hunt of others. See NMM XXX for a really great example of a scum team that was fucked not by strong scum hunting but by a group of townies who all made their mindset and alignment abundantly clear in the thread. 3. General Notes for Townies + Show Spoiler + (A) Townie Priorities + Show Spoiler + [A General Guide to Playing Mafia] #1: Establish your innocence #2: Read the thread #3: Enable the scum hunt (Start discussion, contribute, pressure etc) #4: Vote (B) Confirmation Bias/Tunneling + Show Spoiler + [General] Mafia is a game where it is not uncommon to draw multiple conclusions from the same facts. Make sure your “analysis” is clearly drawn from the facts rather than superficially pointing out irrelevant facts to prop up your theory. Do not fall into confirmation bias by believing so strongly in your conclusions that you twist every possible thing your target says to support your case and ignore evidence that contradicts your conclusion (C) There is no benefit to calling out early town reads + Show Spoiler + [Toadestern] See the thing is, ... it is INCREDIBLY hard to tell a townie who's posting a townread apart from a mafia who's posting a townread while both may look like something useful (it's not). A townread is best kept to yourself, especially early on. 1. There's no reason to tell people what the key to making you think someone is town is. 2. There's no reason to tell mafia (if you're town) who you consider to be a likely townie is. 3. There's no reason to tell anybody why you think someone is town at all, unless said person is about to be lynched. On top of that, it is incredibly easy for mafia to look like they're doing something by posting townreads. They know they're right on something, they don't have to make up bullshit, which they have to when they're doing scumreads unless they're bussing. They can get in the thread make 4 townreads about someone, mix in 2 mafiabuddies and tell people they're mafia as well and there's almost no way to distinguish that from a townie. I mean there is, but it's just WAY hader than by looking at peoples mafiareads because again, mafia have to make up some bullshit when doing those, they got confirmation bias and already know they're wrong and all that is making it hard for mafias to talk about mafia-reads. Talking about townreads isn't for them, not at all. 4. General Mafioso Behaviours + Show Spoiler + (A) Mafia actions broken into the basics + Show Spoiler + [General Guide to Playing Mafia] Thus, mafia actions can generally be split into two rough categories: A. Survival 1. Hiding/Blending in 2. Posting long but contentless posts 3. Lurking 4. Indecision 5. Not wanting to point fingers 6. Avoiding responsibility 7. Apathy about who is lynched B. Pushing their agenda 1. Promoting confusion 2. Avoiding contributing new ideas 3. Making a big deal about nothing 4. Cherry Picking town mistakes while ignoring contributions (B) Calculated "Inaction" from Mafia + Show Spoiler + [General] You don't want to lynch the people you call scum. You want the town to lynch the people you call town. Call out lurkers. They are easy to lynch, but don't try to lynch them until later in the game. Their wagon will provide good escape later if you need it. Don't underestimate the power of subtle praise. "That's a great point" and "I didn't notice that" or even "I'm sheeping X, who is obv-town" helps building false confidence in townies. This will make the townie think you are town, and if they turn out to be wrong they get the blame and their confidence is shaken. It is generally good to leave the responsibility for the town's lynches on the town *Mocsta: Also known as "White-Knighting"* (C) Active Lurking + Show Spoiler + [General] Examples of active lurking include posts made only of taunts, excuses for not posting, incoherent gibberish that will lead people to suspect that you do not have the Internet savvy to play Mafia, general bland agreement with whatever is going on, and so forth. For the less couth readers, this is frequently called "bullshitting" in MeatWorld. This tactic is employed by scum who wish to appear more active than they actually are; either for the scum who has no comment on the current matter but does not want to seem like they are lurking, or for the lurker who wants to paint themselves as slightly better than some other lurker. The effectiveness of this tactic is quite impressive if players are not specifically looking for it. It is a common Town mistake to wish for the lynch of people they violently disagree with over the people who post whatever they can to stay on the periphery. 5. Scum Hunting tips + Show Spoiler + (A) Avoiding WIFOM + Show Spoiler + [General] Do not get into a logical debate with your target. This always ends with “I have my views, you have yours”. Only reply to what is necessary. (B) Scum Read tips + Show Spoiler + [Aquanim] Personally, I believe there are two very different kinds of tells: a player can do something which is not hard for scum to do or they can do something which is just scummy. Some examples: Things which are not hard for scum to do: - Talking about policy - Defending other players - Rambling about Mafia theory - Jumping on scumslips - Posting rationally (about things that aren't scumhunting) - Jumping on a wagon etc. Things which are scummy: - Not voting for their best scumread when lynch is imminent. - Derailing fruitful discussion. And, for comparison: Things which are generally hard for scum to do: - Scumhunt. This is NOT the same thing as "put down a vote with some justification". - Convincingly converse with their scumbuddies. As you can see, the first list has a lot more stuff in it. Everyone does some things that are in the first list, but when they're ONLY doing those that's a problem. The point is, I'd encourage everyone to look at their scumreads and think "are they scummy, or just doing things which are easy for scum to fake"? Similarly, look at your townreads and think "are they scumhunting"? Putting down votes isn't necessarily scumhunting BTW. If they're not scumhunting, they're not particularly town, I don't care how much they've written or how smart/cautious/nice they are. Oh, and talk to your coaches about scumreads instead of listening to the opinions of some newb. (C) Improving quality of questions + Show Spoiler + [General] When digging for information, don’t just ask the direct questions expecting the answer you want to hear. The mafia are obviously not going to want to answer the way you’d like them to. Don’t ask questions hoping for a slip-up; ask questions intending to force the mafia to give up information. Before asking a question, you must have a realistic expectation of what the answer will be. Many townies ask open-ended or direct questions that have zero chance of bringing out useful information. You must predict the answers to the questions before asking them in order to avoid pointless questions. Don’t repetitively ask questions unless you know you can accurately process the information you receive. (D)Re-enforcing the scum read message + Show Spoiler + [Aquanim]Mafia start with more information than town. It is in the Mafia's best interest to keep town from finding information. Conversely, it is in the Town players' best interests for the Town to gain information. Therefore, Townie players:
Scum players may in fact be forced to reveal some information so as to appear townie. They may ask other players questions to appear townie. However, the end goal of a Scum player is NOT to look townie, it is to deny town the information they need to lynch correctly. As such, they will reveal as little information as possible, and their questions are unlikely to have a greater and unifying purpose. One case in particular I'll mention: everyone is obliged to justify their votes, scum or not. Unless the explanation is spectacularly good or bad, the presence of any reasoning behind a vote is null for me generally. So, I've looked at everybody's filters with the following two questions in mind: Is this person willingly revealing his own motivations, reasoning, etc.? Is this person trying to obtain information from other players? | ||
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Questions to All Persons:Session 3 Intent: Discussion is quite slow at the moment. I have addressed questions to each participant to promote further conversation, whether directly to myself, or to others. Please take the time and respond to these accordingly. If you have qualms replying to my content, please notify myself and the rest of town, why you deem this unnecessary.
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On January 04 2013 13:45 cDgCorazon wrote: Mocsta, I'm really curious. Why are you still voting for me? If you have an actual reason to vote for me besides being paranoid of my XXXIII play, I would love to hear them. Mate, your scum play impressed me Newbie 33, BUT... this game, you are starting to disapoint. Read between the lines; Spag figured it out... Fact is.. look at what I have written today, do you think that takes 5min? I haven't had an opportunity to update my case profiles for the Day 1 Lynch. I aim to have this ready by midnight (8hrs from lynch).. it is Friday night after all. + Show Spoiler + If you want a heads up, after the Session 2/3 proceedings, my vote will not be cast in your direction (or Spags) | ||
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On January 04 2013 13:50 cDgCorazon wrote: Also @Mocsta: What do you think of Zarepath's attack on Syl, and Syl's defense? Im not trying to be a prick here..however, I am trying to follow your advice. *i.e. wait for feedback from others who have not been actively participating* In essence, I DO have firm thoughts on what happened. My revised questions to others reflects my opinion on the matter (in a subtle manner). I will say one more thing though.. I am not liking people instantly concurring with others ideas.... at least try to be creative and add a fresh perspective. Ironically, this applies to both zarepath and Sylencia. | ||
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On January 04 2013 13:53 cDgCorazon wrote: Well, I took your continuous vote (almost 24 hours) to mean that I had not satisfied your answers, and I just wanted to know why you kept your vote on me instead of un-voting. Fair comment. ##Unvote: cDgCorazon As mentioned prior, I will update my Day1 Vote candidate later tonight. In the meantime, this is theory crafting. But I wouldnt mind your feedback, as the post contribution is SO low.. im almost considering trying to push for below. + Show Spoiler + There are 9 members.. I know I am town, that gives me a choice of 8 to lynch. (1/8 = 12.5%) I think I have 2 or 3 good enough town reads.. that gives me a 1/5 chance (20%).. Do you think that 20% chance is good enough to warrant a random lynch a lurker vote? We know from practice, that the outspoken guys, are typically town (who are not afraid to voice their opinion).. Theres too many 1 page filters, even for this stage of the game. | ||
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Mocsta(1) Do you think your case on zarepath is exclusive of confirmation bias towards mafia? Remember, OrangeRemi voted "no-lynch" day 1, and he was a bluer role. I urge you to have a re-think and let us know if you can explain zarepath motives from a town perspective. . On January 04 2013 13:58 OmniEulogy wrote: (1)from a town perspective I could see it being a misguided attempt to save a town lurker from getting lynched. However just because as you said Orange did it and was blue, it doesn't make it a good play. Furthermore we also had scum in NMM XXXIII try to support a no-lynch D1 in their opening posts. (2)Do you have a read on anybody at the moment Mocsta? (2) Read my reply to cDgCorazon 1 to 2 posts above... (1) I don't understand what you are saying. zarepath accused sylencia... how is this a misguided attempt? who is the town lurker you are referring to? Im not saying no-vote is a good play, im saying it doesnt categorise a player as scum OR town. So I suggest dropping it altogether. Personally Im not against a no-vote, depending on the situation (and I dont think our situation warrants a no-vote). Perhaps I have misinterpreted your comments, but I would appreciate if you could collect your thoughts in a a more cohesive manner. | ||
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On January 04 2013 14:19 zarepath wrote: (1) Mocsta: I would rather lynch an active participant with a scummy vibe than a low-count poster with only votes for posts. (2) I still say that hypothetically mentioning a no-lynch over a blind LAL is the huge scum tell that you think it is, Omni. Mafia would rather have a lynch on a non-mafia lurker than a no-lynch, and mafia can control whether or not they lurk. @zarepath (1) The beauty of this game is, everyone has the potential to vote for who they want. It is in their control. . You are hoping others follow that vote however. (Personally)I prefer Sylencia response to (1), the question indeed was vague; it was definitely not discrete, so many variables were missing [intentionally] You have somehow linked all the pieces together however, to formulate a discrete conclusion. If I look at a town perspective: Perhaps you are prejudiced in opinion. Ruling your opinion a "matter of fact" opposed to any form of tell or read. Perhaps you are a hot head, that posts ab-lib (possibly regretting the post later)... a trait surely I of all people can understand. If I consider a mafia perspective: Who cares who is voted, as long as its not mafia. That leads to a propensity to recklessly formulate opinions, and essentially make discrete conclusions. So we go back to.. zarepath, what is you motivation? If (/When) I go through your filter; Do you think I will find town or scum motivations? Considering you are hawking the thread always, I am keen to hear your thoughts before I progress with this further | ||
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On January 04 2013 14:57 cDgCorazon wrote: Well, you need to pay attention to the game to figure out why I had null reads. I was the first one to have a vote cast against them, so I needed to defend myself. If I were to start calling people out instead of defending myself, it would be a ridiculous scumtell (not to mention being rude. If someone takes the time to make a case against you, then you should have the courtesy to defend yourself, no matter how weak). The thing is, you need to check your facts. Technically, you told a lie there and said I had not contributed, when I clearly have contributed more than you. I just needed to contribute in a different way than you had to because of the early vote. I will not have an accusation made against me that is false. Gentleman.. if I may step in. This is starting to dilute the thread on a "he-said/she-sad" (not that any of you are she's )I see no fault with zarepath asking for contributions from anyone (including myself). I can also understand why cDgCorazon is acting this way. Especially with the duration of my vote. I think, shake hands, and move on. There is a lot of decent content and relationships to read through on pages 14-15. Lets not dilute those reads due to a "he-said/she-said". | ||
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On January 04 2013 14:24 StriX wrote: (1) Have your ideas expanded on "who is who"? Please share (2) You said zarepath is your lead suspect. With the information zarepath has presented since Session 2. What are your revised thoughts? If still a target, I suggest you demonstrate your conviction with a vote; otherwise, begin to identify alternative candidates. 1. I'm starting to yes. 2. Feel like we're going a bit easy on TeMiL and I'd like to vote to lynch him right now. I delayed my vote due to suspecting lurking was due to timezone issues, however, I feel like we've given him long enough to contribute. He is also the only one to not respond to Mocsta's first set of questions. ... ##Vote TeMil @StriX Town still needs more than you. Sylencia is a good friend to you, and gave a moving resume. Even I want to hire you.. but I and thus town, need more meaningful contribution. Why have you backed off zarepath? I want to know rationale, you should have this case-at-hand if you are analytically minded as Sylencia stated. Why have you voted TeMiL? Please reference the following in your answering: (A) On January 03 2013 22:47 StriX wrote: 1. Doesn't seem logical to do that so no. As you can deal with a lying or lurking town with less punishment than .5?-1 death/night. and (B) I also find it convenient my question to you.. (3)[Mocsta] Your post contribution currently is on par with TeMiL and zarepath. If we are you Lynch all lurkers, which of (TeMiL, zarepath, StriX) shall town vote to lynch? Please lead the scum hunt with your chosen candidate. The only people you have referenced in your contributions are TeMiL and zarepath (names I fed you in questions). Why would this be the case? Do you see any contradictions in tale? I noted as well TeMiL didnt answer the questions.. you haven't answered all either...I still want to know.. On January 03 2013 22:47 StriX wrote: (2) [Mocsta] thus, how do you propose to support town play? | ||
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StriX: Noted you shared you "whos-who" The rest of the last post, still applies. Please address. | ||
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On January 04 2013 15:27 StriX wrote: Seems to defeat the purpose - Much easier to wait for a mistake then tell someone your watching them and expect one. Not to mention you could create one self fulfilling prophecy style. I guess we have different definitions of top scum reads as I really don't feel supporting no lynch is one. Perhaps in a high level (it'd probably be a meta play there actually) game but not in newbie mafia. I guess it's easier to spot things when people point them out to you. Honestly forgot you're the one who gave me the names and neglected to check out the others in more detail. Will now be aware of the leading nature of your questions towards myself. StriX,I am having trouble digesting what you have written above. I ask that you look back at the whole question I asked of you here. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=389091¤tpage=16#302 Do you think you have addressed my questions? I don't... In fact, I don't know why you have used specific phrasing in your answers, that I think are unrelated to the question-at-hand. e.g. self-fulfilling prophecy.... As I don't think you have answered my question; so I request that you re-write what you wanted to say in a more cohesive manner. Lastly, Im not calling you out on this, Im giving a tip in general, when you start a sentence with "honestly" the implication is that the entire conversation prior may not have contained your "honest" thoughts...Same goes with (To be honest.. blah blah blah)...Im not calling you out, because that also usually associated with body language, and obviously I cant see you. | ||
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On January 04 2013 19:18 Sylencia wrote: Comments to me.Mocsta- If we have the courtesy of answering your questions straight, could you do us a favour and answer our questions straight as well? Otherwise we're just feeding you information while we get nothing back - or it's left up to us to interpret. Not what you want, especially when it can be twisted so easily. zarepath- You gave 5-6 points as to why I was potentially scummy - one of them included the fact that I 'didn't believe' in my own read, so I didn't vote Spag. Yet you do exactly the same thing and just give an FoS on me rather than voting me outright. Your tendency to act against what you say about others really grinds me, and it's a fairly clear tell when you've done it multiple times today. Because I would like you to owe me a favour... I am going to respond to your post now As mentioned Mocsta Post I am heading out soon, my position hasnt changed from that post. + Show Spoiler + (1) Im disapointed you think the information is one-way. The information goes to all readers of the thread, this is an interesting perspective you have? (2) A lot of people in the thread are saying "I agree with Mocsta".. I think this implies I need to take a step back, and let people think for themselves. Do you not agree? Obviously not.. because the quote you put in your response, actually takes out the part I just said about taking a step back....."See here for post" Once again.. interesting perspective Sylencia.... P.S. Feel free to twist my words the way you want It takes two to tango, and I am more than willing to accept your offer to dance  Comments to zarepath + Show Spoiler + This is heading towards OMGUS very quickly. (1) In general to both, I am not a fan of ##FoS... what does it actually achieve? (OoOoO I am shaking in my boots because of a FoS) (2) I need to re-read your filter Sylencia.. but my opinion of zarepath is that he is not a threat. When I read his filter, I am currently interpretting his motives as town aligned. [Note.. I am not establishing him as a town read... this would go against what I was advising prior] (3) I am not going bother commenting on this situation in general... I think there are higher priority targets for Day 1 lynch; If you want to continue with zarepath as your vote, go ahead, its your decision. I ask that you re-evaluate his filter, do you see town motivations? If so, I suggest you start thinking of an alternative person to scum hunt. | ||
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On January 04 2013 22:10 zarepath wrote: I see you already read my filter (went to bed right after those posts and just now got up), but since you addressed me directly, I'll still respond -- I'm pretty sure you'll find town motivations. I am surprised that those who have voted for me (Sylencia, Omni) have done so without an analysis of my filter, especially considering we're early in the game and it should be decidedly easy to do so. I'm wary of tunnel-visioning either of them simply because they've voted for me and I don't want confirmation bias via OMGUS. Well, regardless of whether I think you are town aligned or scum aligned; I am going to put pressure, or ask for more information. I understand why Spaghetticus was defensive yesterday *at least I think I do*; but, in general that is not the way to respond. You seem to understand that by saying you don't want to be OMGUS. Let me say this.. As a townie, we can all make mistakes. [The unwritten rule is to learn from them] I suggest, if you think Sylencia or OmniEulogy are lynch candidates; build a more defined case that shows you are rational. Try to look at comments from scum/town perspectives, if there is a reason for a motivation to be town linked.. are you sure you want to risk a 50/50 and call SCUM? To me. OMGUS is saying, you voted me.. i know im town so you must be scum.. heres my retort vote. If on the other hand you provide "clear" and "concise" evidence that shows you are being rational, OMGUS does not apply. Lastly, if you do build a case against anyone.. please take Sylencia advice, and try to post at least 4 hrs (preferably 8hrs) before lynch deadline. People should have an opportunity to defend themselves. | ||
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On January 04 2013 22:05 Spaghetticus wrote: #Vote: TeMiL I'm still reading and writing, but upon reading the vote update I thought it best to give my vote. This vote is a pressure vote but is not to be taken lightly. My vote shall rest on you TeMiL until you give more content than the next lurkiest player. State your scum reads (not your town reads). Make arguments. Put pressure on someone. If you are town do not go survival mode. Do what you think is best for town regardless of what you think will help you survive day one, this is both better for town and better for your survival, whether you realise it or not. This vote is conditional but deadly serious. Contribute. No such thing as official pressure vote. A vote is the intention to lynch. Treat it that way. (at least publically) + Show Spoiler + For Spag + Show Spoiler + I was debating whether to PM you, or deal with this publically. Game rules say no PM, so unfortunately I am going to discuss this here (albeit briefly). I know the intentions, we have discussed this in great deal before the game started. BUT.. a vote needs to be treated with respect. You allude to that at the end.. but.. contradict yourself at the start, by saying its a pressure vote. Mixed messages don't lead to a clear impression. I suggest you to re-read the Newbie 33 obs qt, specifically Marvellosity. | ||
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On January 04 2013 22:41 TeMiL wrote: + Show Spoiler + answering mocsta questions: + Show Spoiler + (1) So far your post count reads as useless fluff. Why should I not vote for you? am a really newbie in this game, i you check others mafia games you wouldnt find me anywhere. if i get voted maybe i can loose any interest of this game but in the other case i will learn more and be more active. (2) "growing in my role" What does this mean? (I understand English is not your first language) i mean i can learn what to do and be a better player each day. right now am like a little boy in his first class, i want to learn a lot but is difficult to be attached every hour. ill try to change that. answering others post + Show Spoiler + On January 04 2013 14:24 StriX wrote: 2. Feel like we're going a bit easy on TeMiL and I'd like to vote to lynch him right now. I delayed my vote due to suspecting lurking was due to timezone issues, however, I feel like we've given him long enough to contribute. He is also the only one to not respond to Mocsta's first set of questions. As an idea Mocsta could you may ##Vote TeMil i answer both rounds of questions and ive just finished the third. my 2 post where those questions and i couldnt write more because i went back home, forgot my celphone with internet connection and couldnt write any post until now. well ill hope u can change your mind. On January 04 2013 14:44 OmniEulogy wrote: @StriX if you think that qualifies you as a contributor in any discussion to this point I apologize. How about you update us with your thoughts. Right now in terms of contribution imo from the bottom up its Temil - Strix/Jampi - everybody else. ill change your thoughts about me... can i? On January 04 2013 15:26 cDgCorazon wrote: In all honesty, I think voting TeMiL right now is a pretty useless move. I think a FoS (Finger of Suspicion) towards TeMiL can be more helpful than just voting TeMiL and being done with the analysis. Voting someone that is lurking this early in the game is really just being lazy, and does not help out town at all. . thanks :D actually i didnt lurker at all if u consider lurker a gamer that only entered 3 times. right now am reading everything and with my phone back ill be writing every minute  On January 04 2013 21:12 StriX wrote: TeMiL is currently the undisputedly biggest lurker. until today . like i said i will practicing my english a lot! give an opportunity thats allOn January 04 2013 21:59 StriX wrote: ##unvote TeMiL this was unespected, looks like cDgCorazon makes you change your vote? On January 04 2013 22:05 Spaghetticus wrote: #Vote: TeMiL This vote is conditional but deadly serious. Contribute. ill contribute :D this is all right now. OMG... Before I played Newbie 33.. I read through Newbie 32... there was this guy.. AxelGreaser... you have just given me back nightmares of him.. Luckily Yamato isnt playing, he would probably delete his team liquid account. In all seriousness, you have made my life easier today. I was about to start reading through filters, consolidating my thought process, to make a case as promised to cDgCorazon and Sylencia. But... your post, has made me throw that out the window ##Vote: TeMiL (1) You have had the lowest post contribution in 30hrs of play. No excuses (2) All your posts are fluff, and then your riposte to accusations of fluff, is simply fluffx2 with a
Town, I am voting TeMiL, because, his actions have proven to be useless and unreliable. (Yes, I use proven to a person with a 1 page filter, that is how strongly I feel) I ask you this... if we were down to 3 candidates, YOU (Town), X (Scum) and TeMiL... can you trust TeMiL to vote for X? I already know from his last post, the answer is no, I cant rely on his innocence as town, I can't rely on his skill to scum hunt, and I certainly can not rely on his ability to establish a vote. but... lets take a look at the flip side and counter my argument. (1) Do we care if we can rely on him, we are not down to 3 candidates? (2) Do you not have a better scum read you can target (instead of lurker bait), as you advocate others to do? Well.. (1) Agreed, but there has been no stand out lynch candidate thus far. Thus, for Day1 it is highly likely TeMiL might be the hammer vote to send someone home... someone who could be Town.. Are you confident enough on YOUR scum read to risk this happening? (2) Agreed, I had a better scum read prior to TeMiL posting, I was just about to read the filter. BUT, the risks to me from (1) are too extreme. We have limited players, 7 townies, every player counts. If TeMiL hammered a townie home, and then a townie is dropped off from Night Kill, Day 2 starts with 2 mafia and 5 townies; which is going to signficantly reduce town odds. I am looking at the big picture here, and lynching a ?possible town? TeMiL to me is less risk long term than lynching my scum read, who may also be a town flip. Are you confident enough on YOUR scum read to risk this happening? P.S. Just refreshed to see if anything new before posted, and saw this beauty. Case in Point. or as I have always wanted to say since doing Trigonometry in high school. Q.E.D + Show Spoiler + On January 04 2013 23:14 TeMiL wrote: u have something agains australians or isjust causality to target him? looks like you now how to analyse a gamer. its a good brief of course and thanks to made me read it again. | ||
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On January 04 2013 23:20 Spaghetticus wrote: I do not vote without intent to lynch. Good we on the same page. I think this is Off-Topic enough it can be handled in PM. i.e. if you want to continue this theroy-crafting, PM me. (and while your at it, let me know what you thought of the compendium, was it a waste of time? Took me forever to do that on a whim) | ||
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I was willing to hear other peoples cases on other participants until TeMiL just posted his connection theory. I am 100% sure he is town, but hes just too useless. My vote is sticking on him. Good night, I won't be around for the lynch deadline, best of luck to all. | ||
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Post Count Summary Intent: To identify participants ""flying under the radar"" and not actively contributing. The intent is not to provide a quality check on posts That onus falls upon all of town individually. Session 3 From: 04-Jan: 0930 To: 04-Jan: 2130 + Show Spoiler +
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On January 05 2013 05:04 cDgCorazon wrote: I love how you decide to push OE right after he decides to back off of you. Interesting. I have posted this in haste. as in, i read it and felt compelled to reply. cDgCorazon.. i have no idea what vote trends are on page 20 yet, but seriously, you seem to have an axe to grind with zarepath. There is nothing wrong with what zarepath posted, I read OE reply oddly as well. If you can't see that, perhaps you are the one not scum hunting. [HR] as an aside, how can you even say i voted for temil out of laziness. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=389091¤tpage=17#335 (more so than anyone else putting down a vote.. i made an arguemnt, and even argued against it, still coming to the same conclusion...) I placed proper justification, you obviously didnt read the thread (this is starting to become a regular occurance- should I be concerned about you?) | ||
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My vote is changing; but its not to one of the usual suspects. | ||
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On January 05 2013 08:00 cDgCorazon wrote: The difference between voting for TeMiL and voting for a no-lynch right now is that if we keep TeMiL around, we still have a vote, and we can stave off a possible lylo later by one day. Is that advantage that irrelevant to throw away? I don't think so. Fair point. I am changing my vote for 3 reasons. (1) I was worried about TeMiL getting modkilled anyway (2) My top scum read interacted in what I deemed a meaningful way overnight (3) Coach feedback as well.. I am stuck though for the following reasons. (1) There was a significant lack of discussion last night so I am not confident there are enough *hawkers* online to do a bandwagon (2) I dont want to build association cases, but I have a read on 2 players, and they happened to interact overnight subtley. My prime target is not a suspect, whereas the association who i would rather not target, is a suspect for others. I do not know which has a higher chance of people agreeing with me. & (3) Spag.. hes really making life hard for me. If I wasnt so set on my top scum read, I would love to push Spag regardless (like TeMiL).. his contributions are full of white-knighting, full of contradictions, full of copy/paste jobs. I know he wants to be the medic to my marine [not a soft claim.. its a joke to spag from newbie 33], but his behaviour is pinging my scum radar A Lot.. Essentially to me his actions have a town explanation, but how he goes about it, is to me, quite scummy. | ||
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Omni, my vote is going to you. I only have 50min left before I have to go, and I will not be available for the lynch deadline. Because I can't be here, I am not going to make a huge case, I am going to point out what I think are anomalies in your play. If town agrees, they can share their vote with me. If you dispute them successfully, my vote will be the only one that remains, and you will not be lynched. I hope that makes up for my lack of presence. Apologies, I was not even meant to online at this time in the first place. Omni has approximately 30 posts. I have chosen to pass through 9 key posts. Maybe some in general read null. But if you take all the 9 posts as a sum of contributions.. the result is zilch. Its all fluff revolving around policy, and copy/paste <insert participant post>. This screams of scum play to me, and if you are not voting Omni, you better have a damn good reason not to. I am just going to do a quick analysis of your significant filter posts. + Show Spoiler + On January 03 2013 10:37 OmniEulogy wrote: Whoa didn't expect it to start tonight. I'm extremely tired guys and I was about to go to sleep till I saw the PM. I'll catch up tomorrow when I wake up x.x Quickly though - for those of you who played with me last game my views stay the same for Policy lynches. We shouldn't lynch the lurkers D1 just because they aren't active, we need to actively scum hunt and push our top scum reads. I WILL lynch liars though. Townies don't need to lie in this game. That's all I've got to say about that I'm looking forward to this getting going!(1) Policy talk from all is typically meaningless fluff at the start. You say you will actively scum hunt.. but what have you contributed actively? A vote on zarepath.. because he votes no-lynch early game. that is not active scum hunting. That is prejudice. I can vote 100 people between now and deadline. its the vote at deadline that matters. First sign you need to step up your game.. the question is whether town or scum motivation. To me, I take this 50/50. So null read. + Show Spoiler + On January 04 2013 03:18 OmniEulogy wrote: So a bit late but I'm (GMT-5:00) Eastern Time. I went to bed much earlier than normal though as I'd been up for almost 48 hours. First things first. Spag has already said he's changing his style from his last game because it got him lynched D1. He's also right that I bandwagoned last game instead of sticking on Cora who was my strongest scum read D1 and ended up getting him lynched. I'm going to try and avoid that kind of play this game. Spag your questions and calling them laziness doesn't really fly considering how you played last game however I don't really see it as being scummy. Your posts seem good so far and I agree we should try to pressure lurkers but just like XXXIII I don't think we should lynch a lurker D1 unless there is absolutely no other option. That being said ##FoS: Zerepath The no-lynch is a scummy trait. As this is one of your first games on TL I'm not reading too far into it but it is not a townie mind set at all. You make a good reason for having a no-lynch but again... that is NOT a townie mindset. It's a reason for scum to slip through us and kill somebody N1 while knowing they only have to play it safe and just have to vote no-lynch or join the only wagon. Very hard to find scum like that. @Mocsta I think Spag seems slightly more suspicious based on his change of play styles but we all knew he would be doing it so I'm trying not to judge him based on that. What I find more incriminating on him so far is that he says he is lazy when he was very active and making larger posts D1 with no mention (I believe) of being lazy. I think your play looks almost identical to your town play last game Mocsta so I'll give you a weak town read for the moment. The only difference is that Aqua is not here this game so you had to vote yourself, I believe this is also not a move scum would make so early into the game so you've cleared yourself of my suspicion unless you make some posts that make me seriously ask myself WTF. @Sylencia the chances of lynching scum D1 are indeed very low and I believe that is what Spag was saying. The fact that we almost had one last game should be forgotten because if we DO lynch Scum D1 it means they screwed up and the amount of information we would get would be MASSIVE. example: if we lynched Cora D1 last game we would have had FC lined up and ready for D2. 2/3 scum gone in 2 days. While I hope something like this happens we need to scum hunt to get it done. @Zarepath I'd like to know your thoughts behind how I explained a no-lynch to hurt town and what you think of Mocsta's aggressive behavior so far in the game in leading discussions. (2) This post is complete fluff. You have a prejudice justification for FoS (zarepath).. the rest is some fluff about policy and other players. Do you remember easy things for scum to do are talking about policy and voting for policy reasons. Yes I voted for a lurker (TeMiL) but my justification was not "he is a lurker" I gave rationale... Omni is simply "your stance differs to mine, here is a "FoS"... sounds like someone who doesnt care who his vote goes to... wait a sec, thats a mafia motivation. Your post is pinging my radar Omni, you have been upgraded to FoS + Show Spoiler + On January 04 2013 12:32 OmniEulogy wrote: Talkative bunch. Alright... Vote: Zarepath you left us with a nice case on syl, I don't agree with most of it but it was a decent case and he responded to it very well. However you left right after ruining the chance of any immediate conversation that might have stemmed from it. Your position on a no-lynch is a factor in my vote as well, it just isn't a town mindset. Also claiming that a no-lynch vote is not even at play any more is a bad attempt to bury something that is very much a factor in how D1 plays out. Again not a town mindset. You attack Sylencia largely on ideas that promote strong town behavior like his willingness to lynch lurkers in certain situations but otherwise always going for his scum reads. Almost everything you said about him applies to yourself in terms of posting, in which he is ahead in terms of quality and quantity. ##FoS: Strix lack of everything from you so far. You are a close second to Zare. @Everybody What do you think about the case made against Syl? How do you feel about Mocsta leading discussion and his vote on Cora? How do you feel Cora responded to the vote. How has he given himself any credibility as town afterwards. (Cora please feel free to answer this one as well) And lastly in answer to asking if making a contributions list if town vs scum it could be either. We had Shz in NMM XXXIII attempt a similar thing as VT and I've watched mafia players pretend to contribute by doing the same thing in other games. The point to be made aware of is that Mocsta has also lead discussions and is not ONLY making those posts. (3) Your vote starts off as a disagreement of zarepath case to Sylencia. You then change gears and bring the justification back to policy. Sounds to me, your deadset on a bullshit reason to lynch this guy. i.e. policy dispute... The question is, are you that prejudice against LAL policy, you would pursue that as your top scum read... OR... do you vote for the policy because of your prejudice, which allows you to vote with conviction.. an important trait as mafia. I find it further curious that you make a vote, and then post a FoS.. Lets say you believe it, you know from Newbie 33 lessons learned, not to make association cases. I think this is a nice attempt to follow/start a bandwagon on StriX, and give your self a lurker bait out with StriX.. in reality at that point in time it could have been Strix, TeMiL, jampidampi; I think you randomly chose StriX. Lastly, why do you care if Cora has given himself town credibility. Typically it is scum who value their image to town. If I look at the 3 paragraphs separately I have 50/50 reads. But the sum of their parts (i.e. the flow overall) to me is scum motivation, not town. You are still pinging my scum radar Omni. + Show Spoiler + On January 04 2013 14:09 OmniEulogy wrote: At this point I'd consider voting for Strix followed by Jampi and then TeMiL in that order. I know Temil said something about work hours but I'd really like to see his thoughts on current matters before even considering to vote for him. Strix does vaguely give off that "Threesr" feeling but not even half as bad as the real thing. He's my #2 at the moment. I think we can cut down on the possibilities a bit more before anybody really needs to throw out a vote if they don't think they have a read at all. (4) Interesting, you follow up your FoS, by calling out StriX, but take no action? You then put forward 2 other lurkers. How is this active scum hunting? All you do is propose a name, but is that not an easy thing anyone can contribute? Omni again needs to step up his game. If i read this post independently it is a null read. Combined with points (1), (2),(3) I can see scum motivation. + Show Spoiler + On January 04 2013 14:26 OmniEulogy wrote: @Syl nope it's not directed to you. @Zare fair enough I know it happens. I also agree that the mafia would rather have us lynch ourselves and get an even larger advantage. It happens in most games D1 but they also tend to be the ones who say a no-lynch is fine with them early on. Ignoring that aspect of why I voted for you though because as you say its hypothetical and you did make a case on somebody else I'm going to keep my vote on you for the time being. (5) Again, more theory-craft work. What targets are you actively pressuring, and how are you aiding the scum hunt. At his point, 5 key posts and claiming you wanted to actively scum hunt..what have you contributed OmniEulogy.
Once again, all the easy things for scum to do. I think out of all the players, you are the one that has persisted with policy talk the most. Spag has mentioned his LAL attitude; but has not been as aggressive in implementing it as you have. In essence, a fluff post (once again). + Show Spoiler + On January 04 2013 14:37 OmniEulogy wrote: I'm not ignoring your contribution at all. Sylencia's defense was enough for me to keep him off my scum list for now that's all. You can make a case like that and it doesn't really put you into the spotlight at all. If we all voted for him and he flipped town THEN it would. But you yourself didn't even vote for him. How is not even voting for somebody and just calling everything they have done scummy dangerous for you in any way? It's a good way to start conversation on a target, and you got him to answer but it's not putting yourself out there in any way. (6) Ahh justification for calling out 3 lurkers.. It starts conversation.. I ask how.. All you do is say, Hi you are lurking.. There is no questions to them. There is no vote on them. There is in essence... NO CONTRIBUTION. Your posts are at this stage consistently Fluff. Please tell me I am tunneling here because its getting painful to read these posts, I have to rack my brain to think why a townie would post all this garbage? You may have a half-decent post count, but we have to extend the quality bar for you to a new scale that contains negative values... This is the point I went to bed. With all your "contributions - if i may" I had you as my top scum read (due to actively trying to participate, but not actually participating. I was going to put the pressure on you Night 1, but after your overnight posts, I have upgraded you as a higher priority than TeMiL. + Show Spoiler + On January 05 2013 04:33 OmniEulogy wrote: ##Unvote: Zarepath given the three/four pages I need to catch up in and what I have read so far I don't believe my vote should still rest on Zare for this lynch. I think he has now contributed more than several others and it would be worse for town to lose him at this moment. I think TeMiL is just really bad town so I wont be voting for him either. I'll have a longer post written up shortly. Also spag I only read your last post as writing this and I have no idea what you are talking about. I think you have this made up illusion that I have something against you because of NMM XXXIII. Get over it. You are trying to get people to think that we can't agree on anything and that our opinions will always be different. As I know I am town, I can only see it as a move to try to divide townies and get us to lose faith in each other, please stop or I'll assume its scum motivated instead of you dwelling too much on the past. (7) Interesting. The justification is quite weak to remove the vote.. He has contributed? big whoop, this is a piss poor attempt to move onto another target. You are admitting here your actual vote justification was weak, or even just sheeping. Again, how does that help town win? You never post your write-up either... I am on the thread 3-4hrs later, and its not there, what we get is a summary. Your comments to Spag are interesting as well. Overly defensive. What struck me as odd is "As I know I am town, I can only see it as a move to try and divide townies..... please stop or I'll assume scum motivation" Very odd phrasing in general. Too many town references, is just plain over compensating.. obviously being scum.. You then try to re-enforce your town, by assuming he could be playing a scum game.. I also think in general you are over-reacting to Spags filter.. its no where near as relevant as you are making it out to be. Screams of trying to make contributions again... without actually contributing. This post is not helping your cause.. still the top scum read. + Show Spoiler + On January 05 2013 05:46 OmniEulogy wrote: Alright, I'm not sure if I can get the whole thing out in under an hour so I'm going to make a summary for you Jampi so we can talk about it a bit while I continue to write up the bigger one. I'll start with the people I don't think we should vote for in this lynch. I believe Mocsta and Spag should be free of suspicion for this lynch entirely. TeMiL and StriX I believe we should wait until D2 TeMiL I think is just bad town and I don't think a vote on him is the BEST we could do. StriX says he makes long analytical posts. I'm waiting to see one. He hasn't delivered in 48 hours and I am most likely going to put my vote on him. I believe Syl is in the middle ground and responded to the case made against him really well. I have a very slight town read on Jampi. I most likely will not be voting on him unless something drastically changes. Cora hasn't called himself scum twice yet so thats a plus he's actually been playing in my mind what a town cora would be.Please ask any questions I'm doing a larger write up right now. (8) The summary post. Classic scum trait. Easy to do, and looks like contribution. Is there any new thought in there? If you read it.. there is no original content in the post. Its simply a rehash of thoughts throughout the thread. Why are you trying to pass this off as a meaningful contribution? Curiously you throw in Jampi as a slight town read.. you have had minimal interactions with this person, and he is the prime target for several others in the thread.. and in genearl his post count is lacking... I would love a detailed explanation on this one. Are there town motivations for this post? In theory, it sounds helpful.. my problem is, its ultimately fluff, there is no new contributions, which appears to be a constant OmniEulogy theme. All of this SCREAMS scum to me. + Show Spoiler + [QUOTE]On January 05 2013 07:06 OmniEulogy wrote: My case on StriX. Why he is my top scum read. Syl gave him a very nice resume as Mocsta called it and made me look forward to what he would bring to the table to help us with his insight. However I have not seen any of it in nearly 48 hours. Perhaps a town StriX would make large posts and push strong scum reads however that is not what we have seen at all. He plays a newbie card early on and on top of that votes for TeMiL and feels that after making that his only useful(?) post he should not be grouped together with him as a lurker. + Show Spoiler + StriX Australia. January 04 2013 14:40. Posts 31 PM Profile Report Quote # filter @OmniEulogy by the way - if you reread I was the first to call out zarepath on his no-lynch so it's amusing to me that you use it as an argument then call me out for contributing nothing. @cDGCorazon I shouldn't be grouped with TeMil. He follows up when asked why he doesn't pursue Zare with this + Show Spoiler + On January 04 2013 15:27 StriX wrote: Seems to defeat the purpose - Much easier to wait for a mistake then tell someone your watching them and expect one. Not to mention you could create one self fulfilling prophecy style. He also admits that Mocsta has fed him the names for his top scum reads at that point in time. No real searching involved. We then have his take on Zare's case vs Syl and how to support/promote town play + Show Spoiler + [QUOTE]On January 04 2013 21:19 StriX wrote: oops forgot this bit On January 03 2013 22:47 StriX wrote: (2) [Mocsta] thus, how do you propose to support town play? At this point transparent observations are my strength. Aggression for me is fun and all but very often seems to lead to situations we have with Sylencia v Zarepath. He wants to lurk as town and offer no helpful information himself and use information other people gather to give his opinions. On top of this he then criticizes it when it is exactly what Syl had to do to answer Zare's case. It makes no sense considering it is exactly what he wants to watch happen. (have people question each other for information so he can make cases) The only problem with what happened was that a bandwagon did not form on a possibly innocent Syl and thus as scum he had nowhere to hitch his vote to. He also backtracks on Zare just based on the fact that he no longer things the no-lynch would be scummy without a good reason. Stating "it was a ploy" and that is all. At this point in time StriX has moved to my top scum read and therefore I am voting for him. ##Vote: StriX (9) The vote on StriX. Starts off copy/pasting my comments. Goes back into policy lynch talking.. Seriosly Omni... future games you roll as town, you need to let it go man.... Justification regarding StriX->zarepath is weak, but passable as a town motivation. Then finishes off with more policy talk. I assumed he realised the justification for the vote was weak, so decided to spruce it up with some policy justification. Weak overall, and lacking conviction.. Wait a sec, didnt my guide on scum hunting, suggest we don't call out early town reads, because mafia can easily do it because they arent lying... whereas, its hard for mafia to build a detailed case, because naturally they have to lie (to vote a townie)... hmmmm its coming to gether. SCREAMING SCUM! Omni has approximately 30 posts. I have chosen to pass through 9 key posts. Maybe some in general read null. But if you take all the 9 posts as a sum of contributions.. the result is zilch. Its all fluff revolving around policy, and copy/paste <insert participant post>. This screams of scum play to me, and if you are not voting Omni, you better have a damn good reason not to. | ||
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##Unvote:TeMiL ##Vote: OmniEulogy Sorry mod. | ||
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On January 05 2013 08:52 StriX wrote: @OmniEulogy at risk of adding more fuel to the fire. Will you vote for jampidampi if I die VT? I would have been suspicious if you bandwagon'd anyone. He cant.. read this post..+ Show Spoiler + On January 05 2013 05:46 OmniEulogy wrote: ... I have a very slight town read on Jampi. I most likely will not be voting on him unless something drastically changes. . he thinks Jampi is (slight)town read LOL | ||
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Remeber this.. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=389091¤tpage=21#404 Took me 1 hr to make the argument against OmniEulogy. Anyways, I am not available @ lynch deadline, as I am leaving the house in 2min. I was set on TeMiL.. i asked the coaches overnight for advice on whether to pursue the scum read, or vote the useless townie. The advice they gave me, I took it under consideration and along with the other points I identified, I decided to make the post against Omni. | ||
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if you want to keep your vote on StriX.. fine.. but my vote isnt going there. when he flips town, i would be looking carefully . VERY carefully @ jampidampi and OmniEulogy. Is it not interesting with such a small filter, Omni declares jampi (slight) town read, and then sheeps his vote on StriX. Spag/Cora.,,, whether you agree with me or disagree, we will find out post-deadline.. but if Strix is voted off, and he is town, you guys are coming under serious fire from me Night 1 (dw, i dont expect to live Day 2) Peace OUT. | ||
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Haven't read since I left (about p24) so don't even know who was lynched. I will try to pop in for snippets between now and when i have proper spare time. Please direct any questions for me, my way; I don't bite. | ||
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On January 05 2013 09:55 OmniEulogy wrote: I think TeMiL's case should be looked at during D2 and we need to put some serious attention on him. Get him to put down all his thoughts on what happened D1 during N1. We Need him to start contributing. How convenient OE. I havn't read the whole thread, but now know StriX was VT. Cora /Spag better build some pressure/cases on you like that promised. I am not going to let you target TeMiL to lower your suspicion., | ||
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On January 05 2013 11:11 OmniEulogy wrote: I'm not ignoring the votes on Jampi. I'm ruling out Syl for the time being and I couldn't even begin to guess at TeMiL. Who else has votes on them other than those two? I know you'd like to believe Spag and myself are both scum but you are wrong. Cora is also a null read at the moment. And I already said why I wouldn't vote for TeMiL. I made my case against StriX... do you really not care who a vote gets placed on that much? Nothing in what you have just said makes much sense. "I switched from TeMiL because I saw a chance to change to you, Why weren't YOU voting for TeMiL?" really? I've said multiple times a vote on TeMiL is wasted right now. Your case against StriX sucked. I commented about it in my case... you obviously didn't read it. Cora null, you have got to be joking. Cora is playing more pro-town than me; if you can't see that, you are obviously scum OmniEulogy. | ||
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On January 05 2013 11:19 Spaghetticus wrote: @Corazon My response to your second post was an attempt to lead you into Mocsta's honey pot. You took Mocsta's bait, but responded pretty will IMO. I think you ignored mine, which was also the right move. On January 05 2013 11:19 Spaghetticus wrote: You took Mocsta's bait, but responded pretty will IMO. I think you ignored mine, which was also the right move. Spaghetticus, you are constantly inserting my name and scum in the same sentences. I am not going to bother inserting the posts, because I would run out of page space...(read through the filter search Mocsta, and it is evident) If you have a problem with me, and the way I am operating.. Call me out directly, and make a case. Otherwise, you are trying to influence individuals in a deceptive manner. I think everyone can agree that is NOT town-like. (For the record, I don't even know what your "honey-pot" is referring to) | ||
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On January 05 2013 11:23 cDgCorazon wrote: (1) We shouldn't forgive OE for mislynching, but we shouldn't crucify him for it either. However, I will be watching him a bit more closely from now on. (2) On Mocsta's attack on OE: I feel like Mocsta was exaggerating a bit in his accusations by saying that OE had only talked about policy and fluff. I feel like this is too harsh on OE. (3) The biggest issue I've had with it is the timing. One hour before the lynch? Was it that important to where it could have been saved for N1? I shall respond. Firstly, you don't like one of my actions over 48hrs. Do you think one action unwrites every other; is this how you intend to play the game? If you truly think all my other actions in this game have been scum-oriented, than your question obviously stands, and I have no qualms to answer. But in all seriousness, if it is one action you have concerns about, you are doing several poor town plays (1) you are taking away attention from genuine suspects (2) wasting thread counts Assuming you actually do think I have had scum motives for all my actions in this game.. the answers to your questions are as follows: (1) I agree townies make mistakes, and shouldnt be crucified. Caveat: "Townie"... I have also noticed you have a very strong tendency to watch this game... similar behavior to what StriX wanted... (2) OK, you think some areas are exaggerated; if you have doubts about my case, perhaps you should share with town and see if they perceive it the same way. I also don't see why you think policy talk is solid pro-town behaviour, but that is an outside-thread conversation. Fair enough you think I am harsh; but instead of slapping me on the wrist. Why don't you be constructive and try to point out the flaws in my logic. (3) I have noticed you in particular have a tendency not to read my posts in their entirety, and call me out on things I have explained. If you are actually trying to say "hey Moctsa, your reasoning isn't up to scratch, please detail more" I will be like "sure Corazon, how are these ... blah blah blah... for you" instead, you just confuse the thread space, by asking me to repeat items already addressed. Assuming you don't like my initial reasoning, what happened was. Middle of Day 1, I was asking for scum reads. I said I would make my case 8hrs from lynch, so would hold off. Come ~10hrs from lynch, I was about to start doing my analysis on OmniEulogy (my top scum read), which is when TeMiL posted. His post was so utterly *insert expletive*I felt compelled to overrule my top scum read, and target him. The rational was simple, his vote can't be relied on, and he is a loose cannon (this was actually proven by his final vote). I posed a question to the coach(s) on theory crafting the situation. I woke up @ 6.30 (2hrs before lynch) and after reading the coach(s) feedback and your digs at me for voting TeMiL I decided to pursue Omni. To go through filter and make commetary takes time. im sorry it was unlaeshed 1hr before lynch. In hindsight..I agree, it could have been handled better, but these things happen. Now we need to find the flaws in my logic of Omni, discuss them, and see where to go from there. | ||
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On January 05 2013 11:36 OmniEulogy wrote: it wasn't necessarily about the vote coming off TeMiL, I feel its more about not explaining yourself and just throwing it out there. If you are willing to go over why you changed your vote using your own reasoning and not just because of Mocsta's post I'd feel a lot better about it. I completely agree with Omni question. Your vote had 0 justification, you didnt even admit you were sheeping. This is not acceptable town behaviour | ||
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http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=389091¤tpage=17#335 go figure. On January 05 2013 12:22 Spaghetticus wrote: This is sound analysis, you are really speaking my language with this post. His vote is actually more powerful since he doesn't have to justify it in any way. In regard to influence it is 6/1, but in terms of voting it is more like 6/2.5 (2.5 is mean to represent TemiL's more powerful vote, it's more powerful than a single vote but not as powerful as two). TeMiL holding the balance of power as town does not worry me. Scum has exactly the same handicap in their voting, they have no clue where his vote will land. Approximately the same options for circumvention are available to both scum and town. Scum have more solid powers of premeditation, and can therefore invest more into outcome certainty, but this commitment to a lynch comes at a price of providing information. For town, I know I will be micromanaging the lynch to ensure one of my reads goes down, and I expect other town will want to do the same. You are correct in assessing TeMiL as a detriment to town, the question now becomes whether this negative is outweighed by anyone else's play. Oh crap. There are no vigilantes this game. A vigikill would be perfect for this occasion. I have actually been hoping that there was a vigilante present and listening, but I guess this goes to show I should pay more attention to the OP. There are also no medics... This makes Mocsta's fate almost certain... How frustrating. Regardless, your analysis is impressive Syl, this improves your standing substantially in my eyes. I am wary of you deliberately catering to the known disposition of one of your threats, but that is good play for both town and scum. | ||
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On January 05 2013 12:14 cDgCorazon wrote: How about you answer the questions given to you before you demand anything from us Moc. It is answered now.. Thus the below stands... On January 05 2013 12:12 Mocsta wrote: How convenient OE. I havn't read the whole thread, but now know StriX was VT. Cora /Spag better build some pressure/cases on you like that promised. I am not going to let you target TeMiL to lower your suspicion., | ||
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On January 05 2013 12:31 OmniEulogy wrote: do you know how to post facts or only your personal opinions mocsta? So far this game its a severe letdown. Cora's been playing extremely well and I didn't even remotely come close to calling him scum did I? Get over yourself, Your opinions are not facts. Nice attempt to get an emotional reaction out of me OmniEulogy. Toadesstern is a wise coach obviously. Where did I say you said Cora is scum..? You talk about posting facts, prove this then. As for your StriX case stinking majorly. I wish this was personal opinion OmniEulogy.. I really wish it was.. Unfortunately, your StriX case stinking.. was fact.. undeniable fact. See here..http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=389091¤tpage=21#414 Go see point (9) Incase you are too lazy.. "The vote on StriX. Starts off copy/pasting my comments. Goes back into policy lynch talking.. Seriosly Omni... future games you roll as town, you need to let it go man.... Justification regarding StriX->zarepath is weak, but passable as a town motivation. Then finishes off with more policy talk. I assumed he realised the justification for the vote was weak, so decided to spruce it up with some policy justification. Weak overall, and lacking conviction.. Wait a sec, didnt my guide on scum hunting, suggest we don't call out early town reads, because mafia can easily do it because they arent lying... whereas, its hard for mafia to build a detailed case, because naturally they have to lie (to vote a townie)... hmmmm its coming to gether. SCREAMING SCUM!" You know, between my case and the lynch I can excuse you for not reading the whole case. It was posted with (in due fairness [kind of]) limited time. But between the lynch and now.. its inexcusable... @OmniEulogy P.S i (and the remainder) of town still want an answer to my case.. point (8) Curiously you throw in Jampi as a slight town read.. you have had minimal interactions with this person, and he is the prime target for several others in the thread.. and in genearl his post count is lacking... I would love a detailed explanation on this one. | ||
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On January 05 2013 12:54 cDgCorazon wrote: I know why you delayed your case on OE, but do you think that it was wise to post it right before the deadline? You had a choice to either pursue it late D1, or early N1. You chose to put it late in D1, where it could cause a lot of confusion, and certainly make for an interesting hour. I have three theories as to why you made the choice. They are: 1. You are town, and truly feel like OE is scum. Wanted to get OE lynched early and get the town on a good start by lynching a scum. 2. You are scum, and wanted to attack OE, hoping that everyone would think that attacking OE = Defending StriX (which it really does not). 3. You are scum, and have noted the tendencies from XXXIII (because you have been making reads on others (myself included) because of XXXIII) for the town to switch onto a bandwagon really quickly in the latter parts of the day. Using this to get OE taken out D1 would help you out greatly, as you could keep pointing out what you said in your argument to defend yourself for mislynching and get a disorganized town to look away from you. Please feel free to answer these possible theories while I work on what you have asked me to do. I am heading out after this response. I suggest you post your reads to the coaches, I think they will advise you are theory crafting too hard.. Answering your questions. (1) Agreed. Move on. (2) I think this is pointless to be honest.StriX was town, and had majority, which is scum agenda. Why would I jeapardise that and put myself in the limelight. Again, you dont like one of my actoins.. why dont you comment on my behaviour teh whole game and tell me you if that scum behaviuor in general. I thnk its obvious I post ab-lib and do not proof-read... dont you think natural behaviour comes out that way.. have a think about that. (3) Man.. I had a reason at the start to talk about Newbie33.. but if you noticed I havnt done it since the first 12 hours. I am sorry the vote for 24hrs has plagued you, perhaps I would try a different approach next game. If i may say one thing about Newbie 33.. at the end game. Hapa said to Cakepie.. you are making this too complicated. The game is simple, find scum,and lynch them. You are makign this too complicated.. Yes it would be awesome if I was a mastermind mafia,.. but I am an ab-lib poster...and I think time woudl be best spent elsewhere. [i.e. have a think about who hasn't responded to the Day1 lynch..] I gotta go.. see ya | ||
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@OmniEulogy On January 05 2013 13:00 Mocsta wrote: @OmniEulogy i (and the remainder) of town still want an answer to my case.. point (8) Curiously you throw in Jampi as a slight town read.. you have had minimal interactions with this person, and he is the prime target for several others in the thread.. and in genearl his post count is lacking... I would love a detailed explanation on this one. | ||
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Completely agree. I have a good read on Sylencia too. I just didnt want it lost that was why I voted for temil... it appeared everyone glanced over that. | ||
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On January 05 2013 13:31 cDgCorazon wrote: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=389091¤tpage=27#531 Corazon, thanks for taking the time to give me feedback. Much appreciated. Been out all day, so able to look at this with a fresh perspective. I have read through your comments: overall, I agree with a few points, and contest others. Ultimately, we will never know why OmniEulogy posted what he did - only he will know. Thus, we can only make educated assumptions. I think your arguments against me are due to deviating interpretation of events, rather than flawed reasoning. I have one further question I would like to direct: @all My case on OmniEulogy is here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=389091¤tpage=21#414 Do you think my case on OmniEulogy was dredged with "confirmation bias" aka tunnel syndrome? | ||
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Post Count Summary Intent: To identify participants "flying under the radar" and not actively contributing. The intent is not to provide a quality check on posts That onus falls upon all of town individually. Session 4 From: 04-Jan: 2130 To: 05-Jan: 0930 + Show Spoiler +
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On January 05 2013 10:32 zarepath wrote: Another thing to look at is the fact that as soon as Moc put up his analysis, the four following votes happened: I switched from TeMiL to OE. Spag switched from TeMiL to StriX (after my vote) Sylencia did NOT switch to either OE or StriX; he was obviously paying attention to the thread (he kept posting), but felt no need to push the dial one way or the other even when a single vote for either of the two (StriX and OE) would have made a large difference. Instead he remained on a person who was almost assuredly not going to be lynched. TeMiL votes for jampidampi for no discernible reason. Spag's vote is a direct declaration for StriX over OE or jampidampi, and does not hold at all to his LAL policy he's been harping about all day. I will have to check the filter (chaotic two hours and I was in and out), but I don't recall his explanation for that. Sylencia and TeMiL's votes, however, are indirect assurances of StriX being guilty over OE without having to say as much. They didn't reiterate strong cases for jampidampi or try to argue anyone else into also voting for jampidampi. I am bringing this back to attention. Sylencia since you are here, what are your thoughts on the feedback zarepath has issued? | ||
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On January 05 2013 19:12 jampidampi wrote: @Mocsta You seem very sure that StriX would flip town. Would you mind giving your reasonings to this? Did you have a townread on him and what in his play made him look like town to you? I had a null read on StriX. Certainly not scum in my opinion, which was why i refused to vote him. I personally didnt like his requests.. BUT.. in newbie 33 there were other townies who voiced the same requests StriX.. (I am referring to medic to my marine Spag)... so I gave StriX some dispensation (based on my past experiences). Seriously.. though Spag was wrong in Newbie 33, he said one thign that has struck a chord in me, and has changed the way I think about situations with lynches. If there is no contest, the mafia must typically be satisfied. (Spag was wrong, because in that scenario the mafia actually gave up, hence the lack of fight). With the discussions on Day 1, there was no certainty... why did StriX go with such ease. To me, it was obvious he was not mafia. What is unfortunate was my choice of actions, I clouded the thread, and I do regret that and in hindsight I would have kept my vote on TeMiL. I don't blame Corazon for calling me out, frankly, I would have done the same. I took a chance in a non-predicated scenario, it didnt pay off. I/We have to move on. | ||
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On January 05 2013 19:27 jampidampi wrote: @Mocsta Do you still think Omni is scum? If you do, please pressure him more. (1) I honestly don't know. Most of today has been me defending myself (an absolute waste of thread space), so I haven't been able to keep up to date with thread status quo. (2) I think he has been pressured enough, I made my case to his posts, Corazon disagrees with some. I am still awaiting feedback if everyone thinks I was confirmation biased as per.. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=389091¤tpage=28#541 For you, You said numerous times you are not a lurker, you a person of few posts, but high quality posts to make up for it. Your summary post identifies 38 key posts out ~ 100, and only 3 questions have been formulated. Anyone can do a summary post (yse I appreciate the links you added though)... I think your 3 questions are quality indeed, but I want to know why you are avoiding addressing anything to OmniEulogy. | ||
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Talk people.. @zarepath.. you voted TeMiL.. the Omni. which of the 2 is a higher profile scum read for you? | ||
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Post Count Summary Intent: To identify participants ""flying under the radar"" and not actively contributing. The intent is not to provide a quality check on posts That onus falls upon all of town individually. Session 5 From: 05-Jan: 0930 To: 05-Jan: 2030 + Show Spoiler +
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On the chance its me: (1) + Show Spoiler + If you haven't read this post, I suggest if you are town please do. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=389091¤tpage=14#269 I know its a long read, but, if I could have only one contribution to town for this game.. I would be satisfied by having posted this. (2) + Show Spoiler + I don't know where it went wrong, but, this town environment is really lacking at the moment. Maybe its my fault, but the amount of inactivity is a mafias dream. Day2, town really needs to step up the activity. Town needs to start finding flaws in peoples cases (regardless of whether I agreed with Corazon comments... him breaking my case down IS SOLID town play.. we need more of this) (3) The following are suggestions I hope town considers for Day 2 play. cDgCorazon + Show Spoiler + Overall I like the way you are playing, and its good you called me out. That was a completely sound play. The only thing I will say to you regarding the above is.. Towards the end, I think you were blinded by my actions and begun to tunnel me. Because I think you are a critical component of this game, I tried my best to answer your questions with respect (but I REALLY wanted to just tell you to fuck off). I am telling you this because for Day2, town REALLY will need your pragmatic approach to continue. Sylencia + Show Spoiler + I think you have been playing this game with great intelligence. I think your positions have been well considered, and in most occasions well justified. We need more of this heading forward with Day 2. If I may, I ask that you follow up on Spaghetticus. I think we are picking up on the same sub text as per one of your first posts. With regards to my pressure on Spag, I am confused by his words and by his actions. By mentioning conflicting views on certain issues, it means that there's possibly something more behind his game plan. If he's not being honest, it's not benefiting town at all. I would love to supply the posts I think are odd.. but.. that might open too many WIFOM excuses. OmniEulogy + Show Spoiler + I have reviewed your filter post Day1 lynch. (1) I am stuck with you. I don't think my case had confirmation bias (unfortunately only Corazon has commented). The problem is, on a re-read, and considering content since the case.. I do find some material to be incredibly town motivated. (2) In your defense against my case, you stated I don't like your thought process. Perhaps this is true, and it is precisely why I ask the below of you. I would appreciate your thoughts on Spaghetticus. Is it just me who sees odd, eratic, and confusing behaviour? You already pointed out one Spaghetticus anomaly here. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=389091¤tpage=26#510 I would be curious if you are able to dig out others. Spaghetticus + Show Spoiler + OK. you have the biggest filter.. and so what.. In my opinion the quality is lacking, and the content convoluted. I find many of your posts wishy-washy and confusing. I also find your behaviour during end of Day1 all over the place. For a person who prides himself on analytical, controlled play; you were very erratic. Completely uncharacteristic. Then, there is this post... On January 05 2013 03:53 Spaghetticus wrote: @OmniEulogy I get a scum read off you... but... I am not going to pursue you if I can help it. Your process is so alien to me I can't really fathom your motives. I would like other people to apply scrutiny while I look elsewhere. I just can't see you as not scum, but this was true in XXXIII and you flipped town. Please people, before you attribute a scumbuddy relationship here... ... ... ... this is too high profile and obvious. My contribution will be substantial elsewhere, I genuinely feel my objectivity is compromised entirely when dealing with Omni. This is town motivated and too bold a risk for too little a reward to be a scum ploy. I have reasonable town motive, I don't want this post to haunt me. How is this town motivated when you followed up by unvoting TeMiL and voting StriX.. its clear in your filter to see. zarepath + Show Spoiler + I still stand by what I said to Sylencia. I think your play has been "in your own way" aligned with town principles. We need you to step up though, interact more, contribute more. I know it feels good to sit back and soak in the thread, and hopefully someone makes a compelling point. But with the lack of activity currently, more town players need to step up and contribute. One of your last posts calls out two lurkers. jampi and TiMeL. I ask that you develop these relationships further in Day2. jampidampi + Show Spoiler + You confuse me the same as OmniEulogy. Some things are helpful, others are pointless. How to interpret you.. I think town would get a better sense of your alignment if you continued your conversations with Sylencia. This is not intended to head towards OMGUS, moreso, zarepath raised curious points about Sylencia voting tendencies. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=389091¤tpage=25#482 Do you think this is worth exploring further? TeMiL + Show Spoiler + Honestly, I don't even know if you will read this. If you are mafia, well done. If I didnt have a meta, I would def try to play the way you have. People thought my 1hr vote was murky, but your post out of no where was even worse. That truly fucked up the thought process. On the off chance you are town, I ask that you try to vote in Day 2 earlier, to at least give the others a chance to adjust. | ||
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Will post the popcorn when I wake up (post-deadline). | ||
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 Expected that too.. *sigh* | ||
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On January 06 2013 03:40 OmniEulogy wrote: ah to Answer your question to me about Spag Mocsta, I'm not really sure how to take Spags approach to this game. It's much different to the only other game I've played with him. I see him as town, although the only game I played with him where he was town his behavior was completely different. He still hasn't explained why he made the switch to StriX over myself as he claimed a few times he saw me as scummy, He also made one post that interests me a bit. + Show Spoiler + On January 05 2013 10:31 Spaghetticus wrote: I'm not sure if this is an exact repeat of the 1:1 hypothesis from XXXIII, as I was dead and only skimmed over it. Basically, unless we have very bold scum, I believe there was at most one scum voting for StiX. This means that if Jamp, Omni, or Corazon flip scum, you can increase your town reads on the other two. I do not include myself in this equation so as to remove the possibility of scum motive from my post. I am not implying you should discount me if any of these three flip scum, and if I flip scum, you should completely ignore this post. This also does not imply that there was definitely one scum on the StiX wagon. There could be two distributed among Jami and Omni. It does imply that there was at least one voting for either Jami or Omni, though this is not a very strong claim. I bolded what I found odd. Would a town Spag want us to waste time on him when he knows he is town? Would he not try and prove to us that he is town by his previous actions at this point and say that he was removed because he believes he has given us a good indication that he is town because of (x) reason. I'm not sure if I like him saying "if I flip scum ignore me". He should know if he will flip scum or not. As a townie I would have said "If I get lynched and when I flip town I hope you believe me". What he has said almost seems like a difference in how you think when you are pretending to be something and when you actually are. However I believe I'm over-analyzing it. Actually thats a very interesting point.. I completely missed that, I assumed it was just theory crafting.. If you combine that, with him @ the start, trying to soft-claim town (by pretending not to know about QT) its looking fishy... i will continue to read the thread, and see if this has been addressed. | ||
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On January 06 2013 05:33 Spaghetticus wrote: When Mocsta switched, TeMiL was no longer on the chopping block at all, by keeping my vote on him I was basically giving a null read of my intentions: a no-lynch. . Excuse me... @Sylencia, I hope you have commented on this, (still reading through the thread).. as you did with zarepath. | ||
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On January 06 2013 05:48 cDgCorazon wrote: Before I answer this, can I ask you a question? How did you go about making his case? Did you read his filter and analyze the posts you put in question when you got to that post? Or did you read all of his filter first, and then go back and pick out posts to criticize? I already thought he was dirty. I am an ab-lib player.. or shallow as spag put it.. So I knew i wanted to write a case.. but had limited time I decide to cherry pick his meaningful posts (whether town or scum motivated) and comment on them. I found 9 posts out of 30 that satisfied that and commented on them 1 by 1 | ||
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On January 06 2013 09:24 OmniEulogy wrote: gg Cora. I was role blocked. fark.... didn't see that coming. | ||
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this was my final Night 1 post. I don't want to hi-jack discussions today, so i would appreciate if each individual can take the time to respond to what is contained within. (some have already done so) On January 06 2013 01:07 Mocsta wrote: Guys, I think there are 2 people on the chopping block tonight. No idea which way its leaning. On the chance its me: (1) + Show Spoiler + If you haven't read this post, I suggest if you are town please do. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=389091¤tpage=14#269 I know its a long read, but, if I could have only one contribution to town for this game.. I would be satisfied by having posted this. (2) + Show Spoiler + I don't know where it went wrong, but, this town environment is really lacking at the moment. Maybe its my fault, but the amount of inactivity is a mafias dream. Day2, town really needs to step up the activity. Town needs to start finding flaws in peoples cases (regardless of whether I agreed with Corazon comments... him breaking my case down IS SOLID town play.. we need more of this) (3) The following are suggestions I hope town considers for Day 2 play. + Show Spoiler [VT] + Overall I like the way you are playing, and its good you called me out. That was a completely sound play. The only thing I will say to you regarding the above is.. Towards the end, I think you were blinded by my actions and begun to tunnel me. Because I think you are a critical component of this game, I tried my best to answer your questions with respect (but I REALLY wanted to just tell you to fuck off). I am telling you this because for Day2, town REALLY will need your pragmatic approach to continue. Sylencia + Show Spoiler + I think you have been playing this game with great intelligence. I think your positions have been well considered, and in most occasions well justified. We need more of this heading forward with Day 2. If I may, I ask that you follow up on Spaghetticus. I think we are picking up on the same sub text as per one of your first posts. With regards to my pressure on Spag, I am confused by his words and by his actions. By mentioning conflicting views on certain issues, it means that there's possibly something more behind his game plan. If he's not being honest, it's not benefiting town at all. I would love to supply the posts I think are odd.. but.. that might open too many WIFOM excuses. OmniEulogy + Show Spoiler + I have reviewed your filter post Day1 lynch. (1) I am stuck with you. I don't think my case had confirmation bias (unfortunately only Corazon has commented). The problem is, on a re-read, and considering content since the case.. I do find some material to be incredibly town motivated. (2) In your defense against my case, you stated I don't like your thought process. Perhaps this is true, and it is precisely why I ask the below of you. I would appreciate your thoughts on Spaghetticus. Is it just me who sees odd, eratic, and confusing behaviour? You already pointed out one Spaghetticus anomaly here. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=389091¤tpage=26#510 I would be curious if you are able to dig out others. Spaghetticus + Show Spoiler + OK. you have the biggest filter.. and so what.. In my opinion the quality is lacking, and the content convoluted. I find many of your posts wishy-washy and confusing. I also find your behaviour during end of Day1 all over the place. For a person who prides himself on analytical, controlled play; you were very erratic. Completely uncharacteristic. Then, there is this post... On January 05 2013 03:53 Spaghetticus wrote: @OmniEulogy I get a scum read off you... but... I am not going to pursue you if I can help it. Your process is so alien to me I can't really fathom your motives. I would like other people to apply scrutiny while I look elsewhere. I just can't see you as not scum, but this was true in XXXIII and you flipped town. Please people, before you attribute a scumbuddy relationship here... ... ... ... this is too high profile and obvious. My contribution will be substantial elsewhere, I genuinely feel my objectivity is compromised entirely when dealing with Omni. This is town motivated and too bold a risk for too little a reward to be a scum ploy. I have reasonable town motive, I don't want this post to haunt me. How is this town motivated when you followed up by unvoting TeMiL and voting StriX.. its clear in your filter to see. zarepath + Show Spoiler + I still stand by what I said to Sylencia. I think your play has been "in your own way" aligned with town principles. We need you to step up though, interact more, contribute more. I know it feels good to sit back and soak in the thread, and hopefully someone makes a compelling point. But with the lack of activity currently, more town players need to step up and contribute. One of your last posts calls out two lurkers. jampi and TiMeL. I ask that you develop these relationships further in Day2. jampidampi + Show Spoiler + You confuse me the same as OmniEulogy. Some things are helpful, others are pointless. How to interpret you.. I think town would get a better sense of your alignment if you continued your conversations with Sylencia. This is not intended to head towards OMGUS, moreso, zarepath raised curious points about Sylencia voting tendencies. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=389091¤tpage=25#482 Do you think this is worth exploring further? TeMiL + Show Spoiler + Honestly, I don't even know if you will read this. If you are mafia, well done. If I didnt have a meta, I would def try to play the way you have. People thought my 1hr vote was murky, but your post out of no where was even worse. That truly fucked up the thought process. On the off chance you are town, I ask that you try to vote in Day 2 earlier, to at least give the others a chance to adjust. | ||
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if so, the question then applies to Omni. | ||
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Guys, there are 7 players remaining... 5 town.. 2 scum... if we lynch a townie on Day2, there will be 3 town, 2 scum on Day3.. which is essentially game over. The only way we can avoid lynching a townie is if you guys speak up more. Share your thoughts. I am taking a step back today, I think it is important we give everyone a chance to speak fairly, with being threatened. If you don't know where to start.. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=389091¤tpage=30#591 might be a good spot to look at for guiding questions. | ||
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On January 06 2013 13:37 Sylencia wrote: I only gave the reasons why no lynch was bad to him. When I voted for him, it was a slight influence, as well as what I had also written, but as I just said before, I don't understand how not changing from Temil suggests no lynch. I am in/out heaps today, so maybe I didnt read it properly. The thing is to do with Spaghetticus. On January 06 2013 05:33 Spaghetticus wrote: When Mocsta switched, TeMiL was no longer on the chopping block at all, by keeping my vote on him I was basically giving a null read of my intentions: a no-lynch. The key point being by keeping my vote on him I was basically giving a null read of my intentions: a no-lynch. What is your take on Spaghetticus and him detailing his final intention as to award a "no-lynch". (I think its quite contradictory, and I do not recall him stating a no-lynch was on the cards at any point in the game (for his vote) | ||
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Post Count Summary Intent: To identify participants "flying under the radar" and not actively contributing. The intent is not to provide a quality check on posts That onus falls upon all of town individually. Session 6 From: 05-Jan: 2130 To: 06-Jan: 0800 + Show Spoiler +
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If you dont want to play the game, have the respect and quit. I have sat here for over an hour, F5'n her and there for no fucking reason other than wasting my Sunday before having to go back to work tomorrow. ##VOTE: Jampidampi See you at lynch deadline. | ||
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All you did was state the obvious jampidampi. | ||
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On January 07 2013 00:03 Sylencia wrote: @Mocsta: You were annoyed that most of us were not on during the evening of tonight, and you placed a vote on Jampi. Was there a reason behind it, ... I want to know where this vote is coming from. On January 06 2013 18:28 Mocsta wrote: See you at lynch deadline. Standing by this Sylencia. Until zarepath, TeMiL join the conversation. Im not bothering with this game anymore. It takes a lot of time and energy to play this, and so far, its been a total waste. If 2 out of 7 players are not going to contribute. That leaves us with 5 players... 2 being scum.. which is almost a MYLO situation. Sorry Sylencia for spitting the dummy, but right now I wish I signed up for TL Mafia LVIII instead, thats at page 150 already... | ||
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On January 07 2013 04:49 jampidampi wrote: @Mocsta I think you have had enough time to think of this. So I ask again, do you still Omni is scum? If not what in his paly changed your opinion? Go fuck yourself and your tunnel vision. | ||
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I concur. In my last post during night1 i hinted towards omni being clear of my vote. Surprising an self proclaimed anlyst like jampi completely missed this.. hence my.vulgar attitude. Zareoath. Have u noticed jampi is doing his utmost to derail the thread convo? Even omni called him out on it. Jampi focus is purely to speculate setups. 1 a complete waste of time. And 2 an easy accomplishment for scum. Further. All his posts lack the detail he has promised and he only gives out information when asked. Another classic scum trait. Im sure.he will.counter by saying i gabe a list of 3 town reads.freely. But once again how.does summarising what evwryone knew aid the.scum hunt. he is merely.blending in. Reading the thread . He is also one of the initiators of the.strix vote off. If u feel the same i do. I suggest renforcing my vote to jampi. Btw written on phone | ||
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On January 07 2013 09:32 zarepath wrote: EBWOP to "Why I no longer think that OE is scum:" Because I"m convinced that his defensiveness/emotion is consistent to his play, that removed a chunk of my original suspicion on him for the attention he'd cast upon himself. In combination with the fact that he came out worse from D1 lynch than anyone else, I sincerely doubt his innocence. His case was a perfect bandwagon target for the mafia, and his general tone draws attention to himself in such a way that mafia could easily push for his lynching today. Therefore, I am convinced that OE is not likely to be scum. Great points other than the contradiction. "i sincerely doubt his innocence" Please if typo. It reads as a typo. | ||
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On January 07 2013 10:58 Sylencia wrote: ##Vote Temil Our discussion has gotten nowhere today, and at this rate, we have potentially 2 kills going down if Temil doesn't come. The worst thing would be if two townies just died at this point because that would actually just end the game right there. (Unless Temil gets replaced assuming he does not vote) If we are to prevent this, then we can actually cut our losses and vote for Temil, losing only 1 person who was already a detriment to town as it was. Sylencia, I appreciate you entering the fray and contributing your thoughts to this lack-lustre day. The reasoning you submitted for TeMiL (TeMiL rationale) was fantastic and a very good extension of my initial thoughts.(Mocsta TeMiL case) However, I have to respectfully disagree with you on this vote, as i think the window to vote off a "bad" townie has closed. This is based on the following: (1) if TeMiL is lynched and flips town, with the night kill, we are guaranteed to start Day3 with 5 players (3 town + 2 scum). This is instant MYLO situation. (2) The benefit of eradicating TeMiL Day 1 was because the chance of lynching townie was high (proven by Strix lynch), so we were replacing a high probability townie lynch with a guaranteed bad townie lynch. The Day 2 numbers outcome would be the same (5 townies + 2 scum) its just we would be left with 5 townies, not 4 + 1 bad townie. So even though I support(ed) the play of (2)... because of the outcome from (1) I think we can not afford to vote out a bad townie. MYLO with the current town atmosphere is instant game loss. The window of opportunity fort his gambit has closed. Caveat: If the town atmosphere was better, yes, I would consider supporting the TeMiL vote Day 2 P.S. Whilst TeMiL has not contributed significantly; and his actions are not telegraphed in advance - making him a loose cannon. I believe that his vote on Day1 was not made lightly. I think that his vote was sound, even though the rational presented was limited. i.e. based on the condition of the thread, I do not think a vote on jampidampi is unreasonable to suggest (Mocsta: jampidampi overview reasons to lynch), nor do I think it is the vote of a person who "blindly pinned a tail on the donkey" I am not asking you join me on jampidampi. You need to consider for yourself if you think his filter is scum motivated. I moreso ask that you reconsider the vote on TeMiL. He is an easy lynch bait target for mafia to jump on; and his lynching will result in a MYLO situation, potentially without a unanimously agreed scum target. The implication of TeMiL being lynched on Day2 is guaranteed loss of game for town | ||
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Your post lists very good outcomes, and is very comprehensive. Well done. I had some further thought about your post, and noticed that you treat TeMiL as a 50/50 town.scum player. Considering that there are 7 players left, 2 are scum, 5 are town.. I think the probability should read 5/7 town, 2/7scum. If you have the time, could you please re-jig the maths, and let us know what the difference is. Will it still be favourable to town if we just lynch TeMiL? Also, I had a thought about the no vote situation, and regardless of replacement I am not sure if we can consider the situation of TeMiL scum, and we lynch scum = instant win. Because, if TeMiL is scum.. then all his actions have been pre-meditated and well considered. It would be completely out of character to follow this up with a mod kill. The chances are so close to 0% its not worth considering (in my opinion) | ||
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Thank you for bringing some life to this otherwise stagnant Day2. I have constantly cried out for activity... and there.... it was. FINALLY.. a case to read. Even better it was specially attentioned to me. How quaint of you an eye for an eye, or in mafia games, a vote for a vote,. jampidampi, with permission to speak freely...this Day2, you were the source of my greatest enjoyment... unfortunately... all things must come to and end... you see... I began to read the case; and my feelings of enjoyment diminished. Morphed into its place.. was hollow disapointment. I don't know what was a bigger waste of time... your attempt at a case, or my pressing of the F5 key for a refresh? Since I am still a gentleman at heart; I will not try to embarass you with a point-by-point detail of your "attempt at a case". Rather, I will throw some pointers for you, that you can use for your "bigger case later", I suspect still on me of course. Let us call this case 2.0 Mocsta: jampidampi case2.0 tips for improvement @jampidampi For your next case, may I suggest you the following:
Thus to conclude, I welcome your case 2.0. It will present an opportunity for me to dissect your thinking, and present "self-contributed" evidence to town on your scum behaviour(s). | ||
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On January 07 2013 13:11 Mocsta wrote: Sylencia. Your post lists very good outcomes, and is very comprehensive. Well done. I had some further thought about your post, and noticed that you treat TeMiL as a 50/50 town.scum player. Considering that there are 7 players left, 2 are scum, 5 are town.. I think the probability should read 5/7 town, 2/7scum. If you have the time, could you please re-jig the maths, and let us know what the difference is. Will it still be favourable to town if we just lynch TeMiL? Also, I had a thought about the no vote situation, and regardless of replacement I am not sure if we can consider the situation of TeMiL scum, and we lynch scum = instant win. Because, if TeMiL is scum.. then all his actions have been pre-meditated and well considered. It would be completely out of character to follow this up with a mod kill. The chances are so close to 0% its not worth considering (in my opinion) | ||
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On January 07 2013 15:34 Spaghetticus wrote: Oh, you are talking about lynching TeMiL and him being scum? That's not an instant win, but it would put it into town favour IMO. It would give us an extra day before lynchorlose, but not really give us any leads as to who is the second scum. It would still be a massive victory for town. Spag, may I be kind to direct to you to the below. On January 04 2013 00:20 Spaghetticus wrote: I am highly analytical and loathe posting accusations that imply a reality I do not believe. I adhere to theory over empiricism, I am self-confessed, not much of a numbers man; I would appreciate with your analytical mind, if you could take the time to crunch the numbers, using the 5/7 theory, Sylencia was working on. Considering you only post comments you believe in, I assume you already crunched these numbers, when you said, it would give town a favourable chance It would only be natural to assume that right?I wasn't goign to ask, you being busy with RL and all.. but considering you had the time to post your response, figured you would be active enough to help out a non-numbers guy. | ||
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(1) I know there has been a wave of activity since your original post.. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=389091¤tpage=33#646 (2) To refresh, the whole reason I raised the 5/7 town, vs 50/50 town calculation is because you concluded that Town is in a favourable position by voting TeMiL; you also maintained your vote on TeMiL. When I did the math, I was taking a more simplistic approach But hey, Im a simple guy.[I am not concerned with no-vote condition, it is not guaranteed + getting a replacement anyways] So taking your logic and applying the absolute basics... if we lynch TeMiL: (and he votes) + Show Spoiler + Town (5/7) : 3-2, MYLO Scum (2/7): 4-1 (good position) 5/7 = 72% of MYLO situation (This is a general percentage that can be applied if we lynch anyone not Town) This can be interpretted as... we need to be very selective for Day2 lynch candidate.. if we choose wrong, there is a 72% chance of "Mis-Lynch and Lose" for Day3. Because I know I am town, the actual probabilities from my perspective is: + Show Spoiler + Town (4/6) : 3-2, MYLO Scum (2/6): 4-1 (good position) 4/6 = 66% of MYLO situation This is still unfavourable action for town, and thus, I can not advocate this path based on probabilities. Well, you might counter by saying.. lets gamble on the odds, and use the information we know (i.e. assumed town players). Well.. besides myself, i feel certain on 2 players being town.. 2 are null.. and 2 i have severe suspicions of (and have voted for 1 of those 2). If include my 2 town reads (and myself) the odds change to: + Show Spoiler + Town (2/4) : 3-2, MYLO Scum (2/4): 4-1 (good position) 2/4 = 50% of MYLO situation 50% odds are still unfavourable to town... Do we really want to put this game into a coin flip? The whole point of the scum hunt is make the odds for town >50%... Thus, I can not place a vote on TeMiL solely due to probabilities. I think the window of opportunity has passed to vote this way. I shall conclude, as I did the post where I defended TeMiL being lynched.http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=389091¤tpage=33#642 I am not asking you join me on jampidampi. You need to consider for yourself if you think his filter is scum motivated. I moreso ask that you reconsider the vote on TeMiL. He is an easy lynch bait target for mafia to jump on; and his lynching will result in a MYLO situation, potentially without a unanimously agreed scum target. The implication of TeMiL being lynched on Day2 is [ALMOST] a guaranteed loss of game for town | ||
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May I ask what you think of jampidampis case on me? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=389091¤tpage=33#656 Do you see merit in what he is advocating? | ||
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On January 07 2013 16:24 Sylencia wrote: This goes back to your original case of asking 'Do you want to bring Temil into that kind of situation?' If you don't mind, then voting someone else is the better option. If you do mind though, you'd have to consider the probability you win after keeping him to day 3. Completely know what you are saying here. I think its a situation that has to be evaluated Day3. I think for Day2, we have to try to eliminate mafia; at least we build up a safety day, (outnumber 4-1).. On Day3 with the safey day, if there isnt a strong scum read, and use the buffer to vote off TeMiL, and go into Day4 with MYLO. tl;dr For Day2, I think we have to vote a scum read. For Day3, voting TeMiL can be re-evaluated. | ||
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On January 07 2013 16:36 OmniEulogy wrote: I just got rudely woken up by my cat... I'm extremely out of it but from what I've read and what I understand at 2:30 in the morning... if your % are right and I can explain this clearly enough, I believe yourself and Syl to be confirmed town. I've decided that at this point (and after reading everybody's filters while I was alone all day) that if you(mocsta) are scum we've lost but I'm convinced you are town and syl is a town read. I Know I am town and although it is a lot to ask I'm begging you to trust me on that. That leaves us with 3 players, 4 with TeMiL that are possible scum. I believe that gives us slightly better than 50% odds on a scum lynch. Personally I think Jampi looks like the easiest target for the lynch. However if this is true with who I've identified as town it also means TeMiL roughly has as you said (maybe.. I'm tired) a 50% chance of being scum. so if we look at it as jampi, spag and zare and only 1 scum among them, I think I'd pick Jampi. I'm gonna go get a drink and then on my way back to bed I'll see if anybody else is awake. Idk how long I'll be up either way though lol and if this makes less sense than normal... well... I'm tired Omni.. will you be online in say 7hrs? If so, I will ensure that I am available for discussions (will be 11pm my time). Lynches at at 08:00am for me.. I can be there from 0600 to 0800, but between 0200 and 0600 is asking too much and the final 2hrs are not enough for town to evaluate a good case (as I proved on Day 1) | ||
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On January 07 2013 16:36 OmniEulogy wrote: Personally I think Jampi looks like the easiest target for the lynch. However if this is true with who I've identified as town it also means TeMiL roughly has as you said (maybe.. I'm tired) a 50% chance of being scum. so if we look at it as jampi, spag and zare and only 1 scum among them, I think I'd pick Jampi. Omni... I agree on your choice of 4 possibilities for scum. jampidampi spaghetticus zarepath TeMiL Below are my rough outlines of thoughts on the four candidates. TeMiL + Show Spoiler + obivously a loose cannon, and not even posting currently, hence null read. I think the best approach is to focus on lynching a scum, and dealing with TeMiL day 3... he might even get replaced the way this is going. TL;DR Leave for Day 3 and pursue a top scum read. zarepath + Show Spoiler + For me. i still think his motives are town based, but obviously real life has gotten in the way of more contributions. Because of this I would say null with a town vibe (which is what I have been saying since Day 1). If you can find scum motivations, I am more than willing to hear them out and consider him as a candidate (due to being null) TL;DR I still think his actions are taken with town in mind. He may be aggressive, but heck, so am I and OmniEulogy. Spaghetticus + Show Spoiler + Many, Many fishy things in his play... but he has also been active. I think the second scum is between TeMiL (no read) and spaghetticus. Best approach I think is to leave for Day3, and monitor his voting activities for Day 2. (Will be difficult as he changes his vote a lot) TL;DR Leave for Day 3; his actions on day 2 may go a long way to proving innocence. jampidampi + Show Spoiler + Has been weak all game, filter is minimal (just over 1 page); and has only released information when asked. All classic scum traits. Then there is the case on me (if you can even call it a case). That is so riddled with lack of conviction, you can actually visualize him shaking while typing because he knows hes just creating and fabricating meanings for his (scum) agenda. TL;DR This is my #1 scum read. Was before his case on me, and is definitely after his case on me. With the last post Omni... treat TeMiL as useless town.. 33% of scum for jampidampi, spag, zarepath. I think spag/zarepath/TeMiL can be worked on Day 3. as you said, jampidampi is the easiest candidate, as I outlined above. I shall re-iterate with my vote from prior. On January 06 2013 18:28 Mocsta wrote: ... ##VOTE: Jampidampi ... | ||
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On January 07 2013 20:13 Spaghetticus wrote: @Omni This is lazy sheeping. [b]NK's are not automatically put down on the player that is the most obvious threat to scum[b], that would make this game damn easy. [b]NK's are a premeditated action that have calculated results, .... Hi Spag. You have convinced me about NKs. What you said there, is spoken with [true] conviction.. straight out of the 'proverbial' horses mouth. Guess you were right when you said the below... [B]On January 03 2013 19:51 Spaghetticus wrote: I am relatively knowledgeable in scum behaviour. You have indeed proven this is true... | ||
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On January 07 2013 20:13 Spaghetticus wrote: @Omni This is lazy sheeping. NK's are not automatically put down on the player that is the most obvious threat to scum, that would make this game damn easy. NK's are a premeditated action that have calculated results, .... Hi Spag. You have convinced me about NKs. What you said there, is spoken with [true] conviction.. straight out of the 'proverbial' horses mouth. Guess you were right when you said the below... On January 03 2013 19:51 Spaghetticus wrote: I am relatively knowledgeable in scum behaviour. You have indeed proven this is true... [/QUOTE] | ||
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On January 07 2013 21:06 Spaghetticus wrote: This is like the umpteenth time you have either uncharitably appraised my motive. This is the first time it's sounded like you might want to make a case. Your thoughts on me are required anyway, as either you me or Syl die tonight. Don't u worry Spag.. you me, or Syl are not dying tonight.. Its still Day 2, just in case you forgot. Just so you know.. My interests are firmly trenched with the Day 2 lynch. Town has a golden opportunity to lynch scum, and we all need to band together. Naturally you are welcome to join us. Now. Just in case your post clutter has made it forgotten who the prime target for Day 2 is. Let me remind you. On January 06 2013 18:28 Mocsta wrote: ... ##VOTE: Jampidampi ... | ||
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On January 07 2013 20:07 Spaghetticus wrote: @Mocsta. I'd also like to point out that atm town is losing, and so not accepting a course of action that leads to a 50% win-rate is silly. We are behind, which in SCII would mean making riskier plays hoping to luck ourselves back into the game. I am yet to see a 50% win-rate option, and if I did see one I would take it immediately. Give me a coin to flip and I would gamble the outcome of this game on it, because right now we are looking at below 50%. What we are actually after is the highest win possibility, which will probably be below 50% anyway I'm sure. Furthermore, while statistics are very useful and I'm grateful we have someone like Sylencia around to produce them, they are currently being misused. You can't just remove your null reads from the equation, they still represent a percentage chance of being scum. Treating TeMiL as useless town when he is pretty much by definition a null read is ridiculous. Wow.. you are doing your best to campaign for TeMiL arent you... you know.. Since you directed this post at myself.. i will personally do the courtesy of breaking this down into (4) components for you. (1) On January 07 2013 20:07 Spaghetticus wrote: + Show Spoiler +@Mocsta. (1)I'd also like to point out that atm town is losing, and so not accepting a course of action that leads to a 50% win-rate is silly. Town is losing... odd logic? 7 players... 5 - town; 2 - scum... how are we losing? If we vote off a scum player and 1 town dies from NK; we are left Day 3 with 4 (Town) and 1 (Mafia), does not sound like losing to me? Heck, even right now 5 to 2.. it doesnt look like losing.. This is such an interesting perspective you have Spaghetticus. If I point you to the "guide to playing mafia" in the OP; A townies first priority is to establish innocence.. (the 2nd is to read posts; 3rd is to scum hunt) Out of 7 players.. i have confidence 3 are innocent; have townish reads on 2, and scummish reads on 2.. doesnt look like a losing position to me? TL;DR How can town be in a losing position we we out number scum. 5 town to 2 scum?.. Even after a mislynch and NK, we are still outnumbered scum, 3 town to 2 scum.. Town is in a position to scum hunt.. make a calculated lynch decision...vote as one town... and lynch scum; paving our way to victory. (2) On January 07 2013 20:07 Spaghetticus wrote: + Show Spoiler +We are behind, which in SCII would mean making riskier plays hoping to luck ourselves back into the game. I am yet to see a 50% win-rate option, and if I did see one I would take it immediately. Give me a coin to flip and I would gamble the outcome of this game on it, because right now we are looking at below 50%. Well Spag.. 50% just aint good enough for me as I suggested in the Sylencia vetted vote logic (linked above). The objective of the scum hunt is to raise that % as high as positive, and I agree with OmniEulogy, we can get the top scum reads down to 2 or 3 players, thus increasing the probability to lynch scum to over 50%. A fine town goal to achieve. Why are you against this again? TL;DR Town can achieve success through determined scum hunting, and joining our vote together. This will set us up for a 4 Town, 1 Mafia Day 3. We need to join our votes together (3) On January 07 2013 20:07 Spaghetticus wrote: + Show Spoiler +What we are actually after is the highest win possibility, which will probably be below 50% anyway I'm sure. Agreed, we need the highest scum lynch possibility. We we use deduction, and eliminate sound town reads we can achieve 50% scum lynch rate. If we take a gamble, and eliminate null reads, we can achieve a 66% scum lynch rate (3 candidates, 2 = scum, 1 = bad town). If you disagree on using deduction to remove town reads.. let me point you to Spaghetticus from a former life. (Newbie Mafia 33.. btw.. you were town) On December 20 2012 13:26 Spaghetticus wrote: "I dislike your post saying that we should "expect a town lynch". Good towns can find scum d1. Good players can be correct in their reads with over "40%" certainty. Your post reads like you're not going to even try to find scum." Well.. i agree with a lot of this. Good towns can find scum, day 1, day 2 or day 3.. In fact it gets easier from Day 1 -> Day 2. We have a good town, so using your logic, we have no reason not to chase scum. Why are you advocating we vote TeMiL again? TL;DR By using deduction to remove good town reads. We can reduce the possible mafia players from 7 players, down to 3 or 4.. This increases our chance of lynching scum up to 66%.. We can increase this further by additional scum hunting. (4) On January 07 2013 20:07 Spaghetticus wrote: + Show Spoiler +Furthermore, while statistics are very useful and I'm grateful we have someone like Sylencia around to produce them, they are currently being misused. You can't just remove your null reads from the equation, they still represent a percentage chance of being scum. Treating TeMiL as useless town when he is pretty much by definition a null read is ridiculous. Well. we didn't just remove null reads. Read the Sylencia Vetted Vote Logic. We treated 3 scenarios. 1. The generic, 5 town, 2 mafia to consider. 2. The town perspective.. 4 town, 2 mafia to consider (don't incldue yourself.. assuming you are town) 3. The deduction perspective.. . 2 town, 2 mafia to consider. (with 3 recognised townies) We left the null reads in there.. interesting you didn't pick up on this Spag, especially for an analyst with a keen eye such as yourself. TL;DR Spag misquotes here, but we will give him benefit of the doubt. Perhaps real life led him to posting in haste. Spag, thank you for sharing your thoughts. I disagree with your reasoning to vote TeMiL. I suggest town join forces on one lynch candidate. BTW, Out of respect for TeMiL.. I need this to be clear. I personally found this post of TeMiL,, + Show Spoiler + On January 05 2013 00:02 TeMiL wrote: ive just make a chart with your connections. i want to know for each one your nationality and the country of residence, or maybe everyone are native from each country that TL says: TeMiL - Peru Sylencia - Australia Spaghetticus - Australia Mocsta - Australia StriX - Australia OmniEulogy - Canada jampidampi - Finland cDgCorazon - USA zarepath - USA i need to make some conclusiones with this information :$ more useful to town than the Spag post I just broke down. | ||
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whats the problem? I extracted the important component. If i had somethign i hide, I would NOT have inserted the Date/Time stamp. You are going to have to try harder than that. Good you see your grasping at (very short) straws. Fact...TeMiL's post, still has more value than yours... + Show Spoiler + On January 05 2013 00:02 TeMiL wrote: ive just make a chart with your connections. i want to know for each one your nationality and the country of residence, or maybe everyone are native from each country that TL says: TeMiL - Peru Sylencia - Australia Spaghetticus - Australia Mocsta - Australia StriX - Australia OmniEulogy - Canada jampidampi - Finland cDgCorazon - USA zarepath - USA i need to make some conclusiones with this information :$ | ||
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But I was searching your filter, and got it from here. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=386911¤tpage=26#501 Theres no evidence of Chromatically posting that in my quote (check the time stamps if you want to be meticulous; so your point is moot. Any ways, nice attempt @ a diversion.. you have not addressed any of the points. Again, this revised post of yours is a waste of an F5. LOL "if town does not outnumber scum, town loses by definition" of course, and right now, we outnumber scum.. hence.. town is not in a losing position. Either way.. im not bothering with your feeble attempts to derail the thread, and the conversation It is obvious, there is no value to voting off TeMiL due to probability. Town, we are in a position to scum hunt... make a calculated lynch decision... VOTE AS ONE TOWN... and lynch scum. OmniEulogy and myself, believe jampidampi is the best candidate for lynch. We have expressed this with our vote. If you think otherwise, please share your thoughts. | ||
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Got lost in the moment.. but your right. its not helping. Take ya time with the thread catchup, I will go watch a movie. Hopefully we will have a bit more to discuss when you (+ the USA shift) are ready. | ||
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For the sake of the town, Let us put the last 1 or 2 pages aside. If I may ask: You have made your position clear. You want OmniEulogy or TeMiL to be a candidate instead of jampidampi. Is there a reason zarepath has not entered your crosshairs? | ||
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On January 08 2013 00:22 Spaghetticus wrote: I would prefer any of the other three (including Jamp), but would not be entirely opposed to lynching Zare. I think there are better targets. @Zare Closing the game out for town. Closing town out of the game. Spag. I am going to need you to re-phase (i.e. spell it out to me) because i can't make sense of your quote? I assume other three = Omni/jampi/TeMiL?? | ||
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wb = welcome back even though its nice to catch mafia by slips. it still cant be proven. so becomes not a waste of time, but.. hmm.. not a solid foundation for a case. I noticed the exact same thing you did when Spag posted. *why did I not bring this to the attention* because, he can answer the way he just did.. us = town. Good to know others are reading carefully though as well. | ||
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On January 08 2013 00:45 Spaghetticus wrote: Cheers Mocsta. I see Syl's words have moved you, I'll endeavor to be so objective. I look forward to your new approach. Could you please start by responding to this. [I am still uncertain of your intention / prime lynch candidate] On January 08 2013 00:29 Mocsta wrote: Spag. I am going to need you to re-phase (i.e. spell it out to me) because i can't make sense of your quote? I assume other three = Omni/jampi/TeMiL?? | ||
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"General Guide to playing Mafia" In general, mafia don’t blatantly make “slips” that allow you to find them through any one given post, but you will often find one critical sentence or post that is the key to unraveling their motives. Regardless, you have identified a variety of points, OmniEulogy does need to address this. | ||
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*zing*  | ||
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zarepath? whats going on with you? You joined the thread again over an hour ago, and haven't heard much from you. For most people you are a null read, and hence, an acceptable lynch candidate. I do not think your off the hook, because Sylencia has thrown a case at OmniEulogy. In particular, Spaghetticus has been nonchalant to consider you... why should he choose somebody else over you? Now that you have read the thread, I would like to know where you stand with all that has happened Day 2. | ||
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Not that Omni has replied.. Im not entirely satisfied but thats more to do with his style than the response. I also appreciate he didnt spend 2hrs making a defense, and holding up the entire Day2 convo. Take the below with a grain of salt.. because I am a feel player, definitely not a detailed analyst (and yes, Spaghetticus constantly is pointing that out.. and I will not contest) I thought that a lot of your points while valid, whilst you described the actions as scum motivated.. in my head i could ratoinalise them as town. I wanted to hear Omni defense.. because.. if he respectuflly brushed off your comments.. then it was simply miscommunication between two players (heheh.. almost identical to me targeting him day 1 actually). my opinion is a lot of Omni play has been pro-town. He has two peculiarities of play to me (1) is the RB.. it just doesnt add up; but then again.. TeMiL/zarepath have said nothing (also.. if JK is around. mafia may have said nothign..) (2) he was extremely overconfident after day 1 lynch.. . i think this was moreso to do with realising the bandwagon didnt take off (Corazon points this out as well in his final post) Like i said.. im not a detailed analyst.. i barely use the coaches, and when i do. they tell me im wrong. but when i read this. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=389091¤tpage=28#558 i just cant see how this guy could be scum. | ||
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= NOW that Omni has replied LOLz | ||
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On January 08 2013 00:27 OmniEulogy wrote: I was barely awake and just noted something in Jampi's filter that also incriminates him, OmniEulogy.. now that your defense has been made. Are you going to enlighten us with the evidence. | ||
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But i would word jampidampi as the easier lynch of the 2 mafia as well. I have had very strong suspicions of the 2nd mafia.. but have been trying to keep pressure on only 1 player, to avoid association cases. my problem, and something that needs to be evaluated is zarepath. His hawking/lurking is very over the top.. and though he added justification for swapping votes.. *ANYBODY* can write rational after the event (and with 1 day to pass through the coaches, it can be refined to sound like town) So I am confused with how to handle zarepath... what do you think? | ||
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On January 08 2013 01:59 Spaghetticus wrote: I am going to bed. My preferred candidates are Omni, Zare, and TeMiL, and I will settle for any of them. I'll try and get up in three hours so I can influence the lynch if it is not going the way I intend. I have certain changes to my plan if particular events happen. On January 08 2013 01:00 Spaghetticus wrote: I could be persuaded to vote for: - TeMiL - OmniEulogy - JampiDampi - ZarePath Dont forget you said you could be persuaded for jampidampi | ||
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I share the same sentiments... if you read my Night1 last will...http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=389091¤tpage=28#552) most of my requests were for people to follow up on Spaghetticus. I thank you for doing this; it covers a lot of the points I had in my head. HOWEVER, It is critical town bands together their vote. With a majority of 4 votes, jampidampi will be guaranteed lynch. We need you to join our vote. (Aside) If JK is around, they can block Spag; and game is over. (Or in the words of ?scum? Closed out) | ||
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For me.. Spag has always been #1 but i was worried about securing the votes to push. Now that zarepath has voted Spag. Are we certain of zarepath vs jampi? I guess in favour of zarepath. Spag has been OK to vote him & has tried to save jampi I guess in favour of jampi zarepath did provide his vote swaps more than 24hrs later. | ||
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I can definitely appreciate the time it goes into making these cases. A few connections are biasd, but overall; its about the flow, and you definitely described in detail the flow of jampi (or should we say.. the lack of anything meaningful) Well done. | ||
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I am sorry but this is mainly association cases., For me Spag is guaranteed scum; zarepath has done a better job than i would have done and highlighting the slips etc. If Spag is scum.. i just cant see Omni being scum. because.. its pointless having 2 active mafia..so for the active role, it was between spag/omni. For Day1 lynch I chose omni.. but now I am firm on Spag. You unvoted Omni, so i suppose you can agree with this logic. If we consider mafia #2.. makes sense to be a lurker. prime candidates are zarepath, jampidampi, TeMiL spag has constantly pushed to protect jampi, and vote TeMiL (day2).. Considering Spag voted TeMiL day 1.. i cant see TeMiL being mafia.. a day1 bus is just too early. So TeMiL is cleared as innocent due to association with Spag. as for zarepath.. it could be a good play to bus spag.. he knows i have been onto him, i have telegraphed my read on Spag for a while in the thread now. zarepath has been absent enough to fly under teh radar, and has white knighted me as well (the whole imitate my vote thing). So I can see zarepath being a very intelligent end game scum gambit. The problem is jampi.. why would spag keep trying to protect jampi.. thus, we get to WIFOM. maybe spag protected him, SO WE WOULD VOTE JAMPI by association... or maybe spag protected jampi to keep the team alive.. What Omni has poitned out with jampi is spot on... the question is.. is the likelihood of zarepath being scum high enough; to vote Spag.. and just deal with jampi/zarepath in Day 3? Or do we just stay with jampi | ||
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I am going to go to bed. I am waking up @ 6:00am (lynch is @ 08:00) I have put my thoughts above.. the options for vote are... jampi / spag / zarepath I am comfortable maintaining the vote on jampi.. but if we want gaurantees of majority, i suppose we have to join forces with zarepath on Spag. When I come back to teh thread.. it should give me enough time to get up to speed, and join which ever of those 3 is required. | ||
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why did Spag protect jampi. was it because jampi is teammate or because he was trying to setup jampi as teammate | ||
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we should change to Spag sort out yourself/jampi on Day3. the problem is.. Sylencia. jampi has 3 votes now.. so to vote spag needs 4 votes to over take. Thus.. i can vote spag now.. so can omni.. the question is whether sylencia will join in time to do the +1 vote to make it 4. | ||
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your welcome to comment why it would be jampi over you. for now.. im going to bed. like is aid before.. i will wake up 2hrs before and see the vote status quo. Will add my vote where needed. Night. | ||
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was expecting more activity and potentially vote changes. | ||
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On January 08 2013 06:20 Spaghetticus wrote: I was deliberately excluding Zare, not Jamp. I would happily vote for Jamp but not Zare. With his final words; Spag leaves us with WIFOM. Now he says he was deliberately excluding zarepath; yet when he left prior.. he writes this.. On January 08 2013 01:59 Spaghetticus wrote: I am going to bed. My preferred candidates are Omni, Zare, and TeMiL, and I will settle for any of them. I'll try and get up in three hours so I can influence the lynch if it is not going the way I intend. I have certain changes to my plan if particular events happen. There is no way a townie would act this way when under the gun; (i.e. confuse/complicate matters further) Therefore Spag is now/was a firmer mafia than the remaining null players. I suggest to use zarepath vote and bandwagon Spag. ##unvote ##vote: Spaghetticus | ||
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On January 08 2013 06:04 OmniEulogy wrote: He is playing the type of scum game I would attempt. At the same time he is playing the town game I would have liked to if I wasn't so passive-aggressive. I wouldn't try to copy my playstyle. The feedback Im getting in PMs is constantly slamming me.. (This game and last.) Perhaps its a style that only works in smaller environments. | ||
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Let it be known, I am giving Spaghetticus defense serious thought. | ||
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On January 08 2013 07:14 Spaghetticus wrote: I am cop. I checked Zarepath, and he was clean. My posturing around his lynch was just that. I did not want to have to explain why I was not voting for this incredibly scummy town. ##UNVOTE Thought about it... Re-Read and noticed this. "I am cop. i checked zarepath" Well. Spag.. you have doubted my intentions *ALL* game; you have attempted to associate my name and scum together all game, the same as you have done with OmniEulogy. You can check zarepath case against you, for evidence. So.. on the first night, if I was such a scare to you.. why would you check zarepath out of all people.. God cop play would have been to check me, if you thought I was leading the discussions. and from your post history, it suggests you did think i was leading the discussoin. THUS ##Vote:Spaghetticus | ||
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stopping using weak heuristics. i.e.. I assumed 2 mafia wouldnt be actvie. we have no evidence that states they woud or wouldnt.. so we cant use that as a method of deduction. All the TeMiL jampi relationships are hypothetical.. if ew work with what we have... which is Spgahetticus filter. its plagued all over. lastly, his cop claim as i mentioned in the above post.. doesnt make sense.. why wouldnt he check me... we have been having digs at each other all game.... i would be instant choice... this is a last minute desperation play | ||
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This is only a guess but i think it might be temil. He was the one who quoted growing in his role mind u. That could mean anything short story is i think spag claim is fake. I took a step back read it openly. Even unvoted so i wasnt biased in my head... The check on zarepath kust doesnt make sense it should have been me. | ||
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this is a clear attempt to derail votes. If u put urself in cop shoes. His logic and play in general dowsnt add up. I have enoughbrespwct for spag and hia game to know he wouldnt make these decisions as town | ||
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I ask of u 1 question. If a case was made for me and i was seroously conaidered. Just because i say im cop. U will unvote? Where in his filter doea he act like a cop. He doesnt ecen offer a brwadcrumb for us do i need to remind u chromatifally had breadcrimba for his rb role... This all smells phony to me. What is your opinion with this context? | ||
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On January 08 2013 08:04 zarepath wrote: Better to be wrong about spag than jampi. If were wrong about spag we have confirmed town, if wrong about jampi we still don't know what to do about cop claim. I say if jampi flips town, jk should not block spag to see if scum go after him. Also how is he sure that he is to be mnemosyne with a roleblocker in the game. Lynch spag for answers to this crazy game Regardlessbof outcome day2. U are now on warch for day3. Town would say what u just said. Lynching confirmed town is Not information that helps. This combined with u not answering my questions from 4hrs ago is hifhly suspicious. Nexr ur going to say your case on spag was a big misunderstanding? | ||
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town would Never Say | ||
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But chance jk and rb both hit ombi has to be remote. Jk shoudlnt hit omni. Target was too high profile. When i was jk i tried to block kill and chose my least profile target. Thus hgigher xhance its just scm rb and target omni as a setup or a gambit like this | ||
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did spag do this? If not.. Wh should we believe the claim. Id he did we are in a biynd | ||
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did spag do this? If not.. Wh should we believe the claim. Id he did we are in a bind | ||
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All day he has aaid he doesnt mind lynching zare i thought¿ just doeant add up | ||
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remeber its not guarateedn | ||
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seriously who piped up day2. Cop lilelihood is small. Sue to ur rb that means jk is in game. He soft xlaimed jk inan earlier post. Search his filter and jk. Says he knowa it cant be me. Nowbhe says hebis cop lol its a deception attwmpt | ||
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Likelihood based on information rwleased is minimal thanks omni for digginf it up | ||
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Sylencia i hope u decide to join us. Otherwise we dontbhave majority | ||
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Hiw behaviour has been odd. I called him out he has ignored. Rhis could be a gambit to make zarepare look good | ||
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Spag.. its out of respect your ability that you are getting my vote. If you were cop.. i would have expected breadcrumbs.. i would have expected a campaign to save zare instead.. we got you nonchalantly including zarepath in your "pesuade to lynch" group.. and you cant even show a breadcrumb. Therefore.. its because I respect your ability, that I expected better copy play.. if you were indeed the cop. (this is not a backhanded compliment.. it is a genuine complement) I think you just played a gambit similar to corazon in newbie 33 (i.e. fake claim).. BUT.. we shall see in 12min. | ||
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unless of course you use DVORAK setup.. your not claiming that now too are you? | ||
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To clarify.. im suggeesting PO-lease is a typo, based on pressing P.. rather than being an intention/lazy breadcrumb | ||
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im sure we will discuss this in detail once the game is over. | ||
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On January 08 2013 07:14 Spaghetticus wrote: Okay bandwagon has started, and I'm dead certain this will be a killing blow. Though if you could be convinced by this post to not lynch me, that would put town in much better stead, I understand it comes from the lips of a strong suspect and it will only look like WIFOM until after my death. Town still has a chance with my death, but you are going to have to have to heed my words, and take the risks, as now town is truly behind. I am cop. I checked Zarepath, and he was clean. My posturing around his lynch was just that. I did not want to have to explain why I was not voting for this incredibly scummy town. Mocsta and Sylencia \were/ clean. That Mocsta tried to switch wagon on to me as soon as someone else decided it was a good idea makes me wonder. Really at this point I think the best play is to admit that if he’s scum, he’s simply a better player and let him win. If he is not scum then all the suspicion is damaging town, and we sort of need to stick to our scummier players. You will not catch Mocsta if he is scum, take the risk and assume he’s town, YOU NEED TO TAKE RISKS. Edit before post: the fact that Mocsta has not realised that taking votes off of Jampi and putting them on me means he’s not trying too hard to change the vote from Jamp. Either he’s incredibly confident he can finish me tomorrow, he wants me around to soak up an NK so his continued existence is not so conspicuous, or he is town with a fairly even read between me and Jamp. I want to believe the third option for the reasons above (any attempt to land a Mocstawhale will be unsuccesful, and letting the better man win if he’s scum). That leaves four out of seven players confirmed town (including myself). After this lynch, so long as I don’t die and I can convince you, at worst it will be four confirmed town vs two scum, which is an easy win. - Spag - Zarepath - Mocsta - Sylencia - OmniEulogy - TeMiL - JampiDampi On top of this, Omni waiting for backup before continuing further gives a town read. If he were scum he’d know he could lead the charge on me without repercussion, and probably seal my fate. This means Jamp and TiMeL as scum team, which actually makes a lot of sense considering how much of our hunting has stuck. The two lurkiest players are scum letting us mob ourselves to death. This still puts Omni in third most scummy position, but killing the other two before him is important. I'll add that because I am cop, this narrows down the possible starting scenarios to either:- one goon + one roleblocker vs Jailkeeper and five VT or two goons vs one cop and six VT In the latter scenario Omni is lying, so if a JK claims we can rule out the possibility of him lying and jail the remaining person, having ruled out the biggest negative read on Omni. You need to do serious endgame turn math before playing this hand though, as you don't want to die before setting the gambit in motion. This game is close, so your actions will be vital. Hope that Syl and Mocsta are town and stop playing around the possibility of them being scum, otherwise town stand zero chance. | ||
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Im pissed off at myself for letting this happen; and need a fresh mind. Iw oudl appreciate if someone else can lead the discussions tonight (other than ask who the JK is, assuming Omni is not lying) I wonder when we know if TeMiL is being replaced too? | ||
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Im fuckn scared of the TeMiL replacement.. TeMiL = town + Show Spoiler + if TeMiL replaced 2 scum : 4 town Day3 starts; 2 scum : 3 town = MYLO TeMiL = scum + Show Spoiler + if TeMiL replaced 2 scum : 4 town Day 3 starts; 2 scum : 3 town = MYLO Sylencia.. I am going to treat you as confirmed town. Your approach this game has been very pragmatic and consistent. [If you are scum.. fucking well done.. i tip my hat to you] zarepath.. Confirmed town Mocsta.. say what you want about me listing myself.. but I know I am town and I have been consistent in my play through the game. In hindsight I wish I asked more questions than pushed agenda.. but.. I made a decision based on the lack of discussion. Remaining players (jampidampi, OmniEulogy, Oatsmaster) The problem I have is.. with a confirmed cop There are 2 game setups (1 scum, 1RB; JK, Cop, 5 VT) or (2 scum ; JK, 6 VT) Oatsmaster is going to take at least 3 hrs to catch up; so we need jampidampi & OmniEulogy re-evaluted. I would focus first on OmniEulogy and whether he can be removed from the equation. I agree its a risk to just assume Sylencia and me are town.. But no matter what, we are in MYLO Day3.. We have to heed Spags words and take a risk @zarepath; you did solid research of Spags play.. may I ask you do the same for OmniEulogy. Sylencia already built a case (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=389091¤tpage=36#706) I would like your thoughts on this. | ||
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anyways You admitted yesterday, the case on jampidampi was full of statements that were brought together using assumptions (potentially biased). jampidampi only additional contribution was to make case 2.0 on me.... do you see merit in upgrading your jampi case to 2.0, and removing any confirmation bias? | ||
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if TeMiL NOT replaced 2 scum : 3 town Day3 starts; 2 scum : 2 town = Insta loss TeMiL = scum if TeMiL replaced 1 scum : 4 town Day 3 starts; 1 scum : 3 town = MYLO Mod.. if my maths are right, if TeMiL was town and we can't find a replacement, the game is over... (1) is there a deadline to find a replacement & (2) if there is a deadline (say 12hrs for example).. and there is no replacement, and TeMiL was town, can we just end the game prematurely? | ||
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I personally have read through the filters of Sylencia and OmniEulogy and come to a conclusion. I will prob pop back into the thread in 8hrs, hopefully there will be people to discuss this further. | ||
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On January 08 2013 14:25 jampidampi wrote: (1)As for my actions on Mocsta, I tried to put myself in the shoes of a town Mocsta, but did not find reasons as to why he would not answear my question. (2)If Mocsta had made some fair points as to what flipped his opinion on you, I would propably not have though of him as scum. (1) I didn't answer because you are not in a position to be questioning others.. It is you who needs to be answering questions. If you need.. i can search for multiple questions directed at you, none of which you have answered in recent times. The most recent, being from Sylencia. (2) I have my thoughts on OmniEulogy; and plan to share later, when others are on the forum. Again, I do not think with your current town credibility, you are in a position to demand answers to your questions; in particular when you do not answer questions directed at you. | ||
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only reason i asked was.. Omni was 50/50 to spag. So his 3 choices for mafia were based on (jampi, temil, OE). OE could be cleared if JK opened his mouth.. but i assume.. they would wait till Day3 to say anything (otherwise will be shot night 2). This is all assuming we get a replacement for TeMiL... if TeMiL is town and no replacement.. the game is over | ||
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just woke up.. look.. theres 2 hrs to the deadline, and so far, no replacement. if town surives into day3, and im alive, i will answer you. but, dont even know if the game will continue.. so.. im not going to bother with 2 hrs left. look, thanks for donig a post-by-post of me, im sure it would have taken a while... prob was a waste of time in the end, but what can ya do. | ||
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hey guys.. i don't think a town player would have been so tunnel minded as jampidampi during the Day 2/Night 2 events.. so its obvious he is scum... if somehow this game till goes on, might as when vote him out Day2. [There were some major events happening Day 2, and he did not contribute at all, instead, claiming to spend the whole day making a case on me.. thats real effective scum hunting right there...) I have my thoughts on between Omni/TeMiL.. but dont want to bulid association cases.. so.. take out jampi first... then if a JK can step up, I guess Omni is innocent, and if a JK doesn't step up.. Omni will need to be scrutinised.. Good luck. | ||
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SWEET | ||
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##vote: jampidampi | ||
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good kill by them | ||
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so its sylencia or jampi. @zarepath.. u commented on sylencia being fishy before.. what are your thoughts now? | ||
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Omni targeted me and the kill happened (TeMiL was dead, so couldnt put an action in.. thus.. only 1 mafia existed for kill) and zarepath is cop confirmed. its officially a toss up between Sylencia/jampidampi The count is 3:1; and are in MYLO. @zarepath.. i know I already asked.. but now that you know I AM CONFIRMED town. can you please share your thoughts on Sylencia vs jampidampi @jampi You have spent an entire Day2/Night2.. working on a case on me.. I am not CONFIRMED town. zarepath is confirmed town. Please make your case on Sylencia, for zarepath and myself to consider. | ||
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To prove, I am seriously giving consideration to which of you two is mafia. I present to jampidampi the following Olive Branch. ##Unvote: jampidampi | ||
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BUT.. NK >> JK power and scum RB >>JK Power I know this. because last game I was the JK.. and was aggressive like Omni and tried to block the kill.. then act as a medic.. anyways.. now that I know Omni breadcrumb was from Night 1.. I can understand why he was RB'd. | ||
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I actually have questions for you both... but will be patient and wait for jampi to come back to what you said. zare prob wont be here for 10-12hrs..i hope he votes with me, 2-2 split will do us no good. | ||
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I decided to re-evaluate my reads on Sylencia and jampidampi. I noticed peculiarities that about both of you, that I think is worth addressing. Before, issuing my questions, I will be patient and wait for jampidampi to come back. @jampidampi.. 4hrs has expired since the Night2 action. I know that you have typically made posts around this time. So I am going to give you a full 8hrs from now to respond that you have acknowledged what has been put forth post-Night2. I dont care right now if you are working on a case.. what i need to know now is that you are present among us. If you do not post acknowledgement, and statement of intentions within the next 12 hrs I will have no choice but to lay my vote down your name. The justification being that (1) I know from timestamps, you typically post around this time. (2) Giving how critical we are with numbers.. there is no way you would not have shown activity. Lack of activity this stage of the game = scum play. In your time, it would be 2am.. I am goign to give you to 8pm your time to respond.... | ||
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Will have them ready within the next 8 hrs. | ||
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Questions for jampidampi Preface A - TeMiL filter, comments (1)+ Show Spoiler [The Vote] + On January 05 2013 09:45 TeMiL wrote: Dont have much time. I didnt expect this results but i know this can change in last minute. ##VOTE:jampidampi you only write when you want. Sounds a lurk for me. you made a deep thought and then nothing else. TL;DR TeMiL finishes his last action, and votes jampidampi Preface B - jampidampi filter, comments (1)+ Show Spoiler [The Promise] + (a)+ Show Spoiler [Lynch lurkers] + On January 03 2013 16:25 jampidampi wrote: Lurkers contribute nothing to town, so if we don't get a scumread, I think lynching a lurker is fine D1. ... (b)+ Show Spoiler [Post Integrity] + On January 03 2013 22:46 jampidampi wrote: ... As to why you shouldn't lynch the current me: I prefer only to post if it has a meaning. Answearing questing and asking them. Sharing my reads on someone. Unnecessary spam just clutters the thread and hides important post. (c)+ Show Spoiler [Analysis] + On January 03 2013 22:46 jampidampi wrote: .. Once we get a case rolling, be it a scum or town read, we can get discussion and opinions. ... Expect some analysis in while. (d)+ Show Spoiler [Post Integrity again] + On January 05 2013 00:31 jampidampi wrote: To everyone saying that I am lurker: I may have very few posts, but each and every one of them holds a meaning. I do not post without thinking. Every post is crafted with a clear purpose to push the town agenda. Randomly pointing out suspicions that are not severe enough to warrant a case on someone just makes them play more carefully. If the intention is to actually catch a scum, you need to tell about your suspicions while actually providing sufficient evidence. But if you require pointing fingers of suspicion around whenever theres even a bit of scumminess, I will begin to do so. TL;DR jampidampi promises that lynching lurker is fine if no scum read. jampidampi promises that all posts have meaning jampidampi promises analysis jampiagain promises all posts have meaning and quality (2)+ Show Spoiler [The Promised Analysis] + (a)+ Show Spoiler [Weak Town Reads] + On January 04 2013 00:37 jampidampi wrote: My analysis on Mocsta + Show Spoiler + Very active, as he was in Newbie Mini Mafia XXXIII. He's constantly trying to pressure people into posting, going as far as giving them advice on what to post. He was also doing it during XXXIII, so I wouldn't read too much into it. Also, he is the only one who has taken concrete actions (the vote on cDgCorazon) during this whole time. Leaning towards town Spaghetticus + Show Spoiler + If we exclude the the QT question, he plays the way he played in earlier games. First posting a list of lurkers and pressuring them to contribute, then beginning to analyse individual cases. I believe that On January 03 2013 11:42 Spaghetticus wrote: DO NOT LURK. IDGAF WHO PLAYS SCUMMY I WILL BE VOTING THE LURKIEST PLAYER DAY ONE PERIOD. was his way of saying that he hates lurkers. Regarding the QT question: If he was scum, he would have gotten the QT link with his role PM. Would anyone ask something they already know of? Or was it a way to get his scumbuddy to come to the QT? It is all just speculation, but I hope everyone here would have the brains to check out the QT from their PM. Leaning towards town cDgCorazon + Show Spoiler + Appears to be playing diffrently from Newbie XXXIII. He hasn't been as active this time around, and he isn't as aggressive with his scum claims. And I don't think he would be purposefully bringing up his scum game so many times if he actually was a scum. Leaning towards town Please note that the analysis on Spaghetticus was written before his post answearing questions. (b)+ Show Spoiler [Weak Summary] + On January 05 2013 19:12 jampidampi wrote: I will try to gather here the big events of D1 leading to the misslynch of StriX.
@Spaghetticus You seems to have acted in a way that would allow to you to jump on any bandwagon on a lurker without atracting too much atention. I will go through your filter later today, but so far you seems very suspicious. And this seems scummy. Not giving information away is suspicious. Could you straight up tell me why you voted on StriX? @Mocsta You seem very sure that StriX would flip town. Would you mind giving your reasonings to this? Did you have a townread on him and what in his play made him look like town to you? @zarepath Yet we never saw that. Care to explain? TL;DR jampidampi posts reads which contains 3 players he suspects are town. (2 have died and were town) jampiadmpi posts summary and addresses questions to 3 players (all confirmed town) (3)+ Show Spoiler [Cases] + (a)+ Show Spoiler [StriX] + On January 04 2013 17:19 jampidampi wrote: After examing StriX filter, he feels scummy. + Show Spoiler + In his first post he is only agreeing with others and repeating what others already said about the summary plan. Second post is just policy talk without actually bringing anthing new to the table. A short post just answearing a question. On January 03 2013 22:47 StriX wrote: A bare minimun response to the question.1. Doesn't seem logical to do that so no. As you can deal with a lying or lurking town with less punishment than .5?-1 death/night. 2. No ideas yet honestly - still getting the hang of who is who. Seems like coming up with a excuse not to contribute.3. Zarepath at the moment - mainly due to his policy on no lynch. Town environment can be improved and giving a lynch which could potentially be a free scum kill away seems too steep a price to pay. Accusing someone based on a nolynch policy is an easy thing to do. Next three posts are him answearing my questions about the game he played earlier. After that he takes back his suspicions of zarepath stating that Rationalizing no-lynch is nothing by itself. even though most would agree it's a scummy moveOn January 04 2013 14:24 StriX wrote: Again, bare minimum response.+ Show Spoiler + (1) Have your ideas expanded on "who is who"? Please share (2) You said zarepath is your lead suspect. With the information zarepath has presented since Session 2. What are your revised thoughts? If still a target, I suggest you demonstrate your conviction with a vote; otherwise, begin to identify alternative candidates. 1. I'm starting to yes. 2. Feel like we're going a bit easy on TeMiL and I'd like to vote to lynch him right now. I delayed my vote due to suspecting lurking was due to timezone issues, however, I feel like we've given him long enough to contribute. He is also the only one to not respond to Mocsta's first set of questions. Targetting the easiest player to target: a lyrker with no contrinutions.As an idea Mocsta could you may ##Vote TeMil After that he claims to have contributed with an argument that he later took back. Then he posts his reads/views on everyone without actually giving any reasonings. On January 04 2013 15:27 StriX wrote: Defends letting go of zarepaths pressure with a different playstyle.Seems to defeat the purpose - Much easier to wait for a mistake then tell someone your watching them and expect one. Not to mention you could create one self fulfilling prophecy style. I guess we have different definitions of top scum reads as I really don't feel supporting no lynch is one. Perhaps in a high level (it'd probably be a meta play there actually) game but not in newbie mafia. I guess it's easier to spot things when people point them out to you. Honestly forgot you're the one who gave me the names and neglected to check out the others in more detail. Will now be aware of the leading nature of your questions towards myself. Acknowledges that so far all his actions have been because Mocsta requested him to act.In his last post he defends his vote on TeMiL with some previous game he played. Overall, he has no contributions to speak of and some of his plays are scummy. ##Vote StriX (b)+ Show Spoiler [Mocsta 1.0] + On January 07 2013 14:29 jampidampi wrote: @Mocsta Your case on Omni has been the worst case so far. I will not restate what Cora has already stated. How do you not include Omnis case on StriX as active scumhunting? Your reasoning for StriX being town is So you think his play is bad and you let it go because this is a newbie game? I could understand this if your townread on StriX was something more than giving him some dispensation. Your justification for removing your suspicions from Mocsta are even weaker. You only say Even if I ask you do not provide more reasonings for letting down your suspicions on him. While Omni may quote yuor comments, you never say that you are waiting for StriX to contribute a big post. And Omni does not talk policy in his case, he is accusing StriX of just talking policy. Not to mention posting your case 1 hour before the deadline, even if, as you state yourself, you had your scumread atleast 10 hours beforehand. Your case on TeMiL seems like an excuse not to post a real case. Then you can just say that a coach gave you the advise to pursue your read and that is why posted it so late. I urge everyone to go through Mocstas filter and re-evaluate, if his truly is town. His only big contributions are the cases on Omni and TeMiL, which reek of utter bullshit. Other than that he has just been leading the town to the direction he wants with his questions. What has he actually contributed since N1? Since D1? He has defended himself. I will post a bigger case later, but right now I need to leave for school. (c)+ Show Spoiler [Mocsta 2.0] + On January 08 2013 05:42 jampidampi wrote: Making this took way longer than I expected, but here it is: My case on Mocsta I think Mocsta is an active scum rather than a passive one. And what I mean by that is that instead of trying to stay in the shadows, he is come aggressively forth, being confident not to slip. His main motive isn't to stay hidden, it is to cause caos while appearing as the most contributing person. He does a very good job of missleading town. I will now explain how his posts are crafted to help his agenda. His posts can basicly be split into five categories:
Mocsta starts the game with policy talk. Some more policy talk. Later, he comments on the power of a vote. That's it for posts solely on policy talk. Mocsta has some other posts were he touches on lynching policy, but overall he seems to avoid the subject. Talking about policy is something easy for mafia to do, so by avoiding it his "contributions" seem more of a town nature. More so than that, it gives him the opportunity to attack others because they are talking about policy. + Show Spoiler [Summaries] + The post count summaries I want to direct the attention in these to how he states that the intent of these is not to establish himself as pro town. He has another post where he states that his intention is not to appear as pro town. These just clutter the thread and make us subconsciously believe that Mocsta has contributed more signifigately than it seems. Later he contradicts himself saying this If you haven't read this post, I suggest if you are town please do. He mentions in the orginal post that he would like if it had no impact on our reads, and then goes and claims that this is his best contribution. Why would he claim something as his best contribution if he did not intend do give it as an contribution? Because he is scum trying to appear as town.http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=389091¤tpage=14#269 I know its a long read, but, if I could have only one contribution to town for this game.. I would be satisfied by having posted this. + Show Spoiler [Accusations] + I will group the small accusations and Mocstas to cases (TeMiL and OmniEulogy) separately. + Show Spoiler [Small accusations] + In the beginning, Mocsta accuses cDgCorazon for not answearing his own question. Lol, Mocsta accusing someone for not answearing his own questions. Isn't this what he has been doing all game long? He accuses Spaghetticus for asking about the scum QT access. And raises his suspicions on zarepath. Mocsta doesn't give any reasoning for this accusation. Mocsta calling out StriX for not answearing his questions properly. He associates StriX flipping town with me and OmniEulogy being suspicious. Making as association case before the flip, weren't we instructed not to do this at the end of NMM XXXIII? Then he claims that Spaghetticus repeately links Mocstas name with scum. Looking through Spags filter, this isn't true. Mocsta says that cDgCorazon doesn't fully read his post. He notes that Sylencia's reasoning is based on his case on TeMiL and that Spaghetticus just happily accepts it when it comes from the mouth of someone else (other than Mocsta). Others have already said that Syl took Mocsta reasoning and went further with it. Mocsta attacks OmniEulogy, stating that he (Omni) is trying get an emotional response and saying that Toadesstern is a wise coach obviously, while pressuring Omni more. Even though Omni makes a fair point Mocsta doesn't bother answearing it, instantly passing it as scum behavior. He then accuses Spaghetticus with a point OmniEulogy made. Aka not contributing Mocsta then attacks Spaghetticus for policy reasons. Then he just votes for the lurkiest player. Voting on someone without even reasoning? Mocsta accuses zarepath for not contributing. All of these are easy accusations to do. There is no deeper thought behind most of these. They help Mocsta establish a protown image while making others appear as more suspicious. + Show Spoiler [Cases] + Analysed separately for clarity + Show Spoiler [TeMiL] + Mocstas case on TeMiL At the start, it seems as though Mocsta tries to make it acceptable that he doesn't post any analysis at all. Later on he even said that he had a slight scumread on Omni even before making this post. Even in his opening post he quotes cakepie to say that policy lynching is not an substitute for active scumhunting. Yet he still wants to kill TeMiL because he is not contributing, even thought Mocsta later say that he is 100% town. This is certainly suspicious. Going after the easy target, he would not have to fabricate lies to make his case good. + Show Spoiler [OmniEulogy] + Mocstas case on OmniEulogy cDgCorazon giving his opinion on it I will not repeat what Corazon said, so you should read that too. (1) Why doesn't Mocsta consider Omnis case on StriX as scumhunting? Omni gives out valid points against StriX, but he ignore this as a contributing early and later attacks Omni based on the case even though he himself said it was one of Omnis key posts. Contradicting yourself in the same post. Feels scummy.Policy talk from all is typically meaningless fluff at the start. You say you will actively scum hunt.. but what have you contributed actively? A vote on zarepath.. because he votes no-lynch early game. that is not active scum hunting. That is prejudice. I can vote 100 people between now and deadline. its the vote at deadline that matters. First sign you need to step up your game.. the question is whether town or scum motivation. (7) It is interesting how Mocsta sees Omni retracting his vote as scum, when he himself retracts his stance on Omni with even worse reasoning. His opinion on Omni changes even before he has taken his time to read the thread properly? If he didn't read the thread just what on earth made Mocsta change his opinion? Knowing Omni is town would be one and only mafia 100% that someone is town.Interesting. The justification is quite weak to remove the vote.. He has contributed? big whoop, this is a piss poor attempt to move onto another target. You are admitting here your actual vote justification was weak, or even just sheeping. Again, how does that help town win? Starts off copy/pasting my comments. Goes back into policy lynch talking.. Omni just quoted Mocsta a bit, and he hasn't even said that he waited a big post from StriX. And there is no policy talk, Omni just says that StriX mentioning zarepaths no-lynch policy is not a big contribution. Omni is not doing the policy talking, he is attacking StriX for talking policy. It seems as though Mocsta didn't even read Omnis post properly, or that he is trying to come up with arguments for his case, even when none exist. How is this town minded at all? It isn't, it is telltale scum behavior. Then finishes off with more policy talk. I assumed he realised the justification for the vote was weak, so decided to spruce it up with some policy justification. Omni is not using policy lynching as an argument anywhere in his case. What Omni actually states is that StriX being suspicious of zarepath because of the no-lynch and then backtracking on it, saying that he (StriX) doesn't consider the no-lynch so scummy anymore, is, in fact, scummy behavior. Intentianally missunderstanding someone is scummyAll in all, your case is weak. You twist Omnis words to fit your reasonig, and post the case late causing confusion, even though you had your suspicions for a while. This is really scummy. These cases of yours reek of scum mentality. First going after the easy target with TeMiL and then going after Omni hoping for a last minute confusion bandwagon. + Show Spoiler [Leading others] + I will split up the analysis and go through the posts adressing everyone separately. + Show Spoiler [Leading a single person] + Asking zarepath to give his thoughs on Spaghetticus. Asking me to pressure StriX. Suggesting zarepath to make a case on Sylencia or Omni. Pressuring Cora/Spag to make a case against Omni. Asking zare to decide who is scummier, TeMiL or Omni. Asking Sylencia to comment on Spags post for him. Asking Omni to comment on Spags post. Asking Spag to work on the the theory Syl provided. This isn't contributin in any way. Asking Syl to give his though on my logic on the Omni case. Asking someone to defend you against the reasonings of others is not town behavior. Asking Spag to basicly give a townread on zare. Basicly asking zare to to make a case on Spag. This post contributes nothing for town. Asking Omni to give his evidence on me. Again, zero contribution. Asking Syl to give his thoughts on zare. Asking others to vote for Spag first. What? Why is Mocsta not voting on Spag immediately? Him and Omni voting on Spag would be enough to lynch him. Why wait? Asking zare to make a case on me. Mocsta is trying to make others think for him. Asking others to do something for you is scummy. + Show Spoiler [Leading everyone] + The first one The second one The third one After these he makes this post, stating even himself that his aim is to guide us. Mocsta creates discussions, making him seem more of an townie, but in reality he is leading everyones thoughts. He is making everyone think for him while his actual contributions remains at a minimum. + Show Spoiler [Reasonigs] + These will be split into to categories: posts where Mocsta defends himself and posts where he reasons without someone asking for it. + Show Spoiler [Defenses] + Mocsta makes his stance on Corazon clear. His is placing his vote on Cora to fabricate giving pressure. It is easy for him to back of stating that he should not pay attention to previous games, but this one. He defends his ask questions but do not answear them-policy. A beatiful way to avoid Syls question while making it seem that just asking questions is giving his thoughs on everything. And says he is not going to comment on the zare/Syl conversation. How is this town oriented? Mocsta defends his vote on TeMiL. He defends his coming voteswitch. He defends presenting his case late. Mocsta defends his read on Omni. Then he defends his townread on StriX. Mocsta townread is based on giving dispensation to StriX, not on his actions. What? Mocsta can't give us a single action of StriXs with town motives and still considers him town? This is just an excuse for what he said earlier. And he defends his lack of analysis. Another post defending the Omni case. And yet another post defending the Omni case. Mocstas hint to changing his opinion on Omni just seems as a hindsight way of avoiding responsibility. And nowhere do I state that I am any good at analysing. It seems he is missinterpretetting this post in which I state that random accusations will lead us next to nowhere. Mocsta defending his vote on me while reasoning not to lynch TeMiL. Notice how he is still not giving his reasonings but letting others figure them out? This is not town play. And he does not address the case of a misslynch, which was the orginal point of Syl: not bringing us to a point were TeMiLs vote decides the game. He finally addresses Sylencias point of TeMiL being maybe scum while defending not lynching TeMiL. Still doesn't address if he is in the event of a misslynch okay with TeMiLs vote deciding the game. Because he is scum and this would actually benefit him. Mocsta defends himself against me pointing out his bad logic on his Omni case. Why the heck doesn't he bother to write down what is wrong with my reasoning? If there actually was something wrong with it, why not point it out? It is because he is trying to undermine my credibility in fear of the actual case. He defends not lynching TeMiL. He just theorises about random lynching while providing nothing new. Another post defending not lynching TeMiL. Again not giving his thoughs on whether he thinks it is okay to have TeMiLs vote decide the game. Mocsta defending not lynching TeMiL and his vote on me. In what basicly is a summary post. Mocsta defending his statement that town is winning. How can anyone think that town is winning? If we don't lynch scum now, it's LYLO the next day. Mocsta defending his various arguments. Then he defends Omni, without actually telling us why he considers him town. Notica also how he treats his case on Omni as two players misscommuncating. Even though most of Mocstas points do not stem from a dialog. After D1 until my vote on him, Mocsta is very defensive, not contributing much of anything else than his defenses. + Show Spoiler [Orginal reasonings] + Mocsta reason in advance his voteswitch. Mocsta giving his general musings. Basicly a summary post, where he states that Spag is his top read. If Spag is his top read why not vote for him? Or atleast provide a case? This is classic scummy behavior. Mocsta theorising associations. He has stated many times before that he doesn't want to make association cases. Yet what does he do now? As we can see he doesn't reason much if something isn't asked from him. Not giving information is scummy. + Show Spoiler [Very suspicios points not mentioned] + TL;DR: He is leading others while his contributions remain subpar. Not giving information is a huge scumtell and not voting for your top scum read while constantly changing it without reasonings is really scummy. If Mocsta doesn't flip scum, I'm utterly confused. I leave you with StriXs final post before his lynching: TL;DR jampidampi makes case against confirmed town StriX jampidampi makes case against confirmed town Mocsta jampidampi makes case against confirmed town Mocsta Questions - @jampidampi filter, (a) + Show Spoiler [Flying Under the Radar] + + Show Spoiler + On January 03 2013 16:25 jampidampi wrote: By not being suspicious. If they are careful and appear as townies, we don't have a way of identifying them as scum. Just flying under the radar while townies aggressively blame eachother leading to a misslynch is a perfect mafia D1. You specifically mention "flying under the radar" as a good mafia trait to perfect. Your filter is 1.5 pages; and many confirmed townies have questioned your post integrity. Anyone would think that low post count, and low quality count is equivalent to flying under the radar... a trait you mention is mafia aligned. Please explain. (b) + Show Spoiler [StriX Case] + On January 04 2013 17:19 jampidampi wrote: After examing StriX filter, he feels scummy. Targetting the easiest player to target: a lyrker with no contrinutions. In his last post he defends his vote on TeMiL with some previous game he played. Overall, he has no contributions to speak of and some of his plays are scummy. ##Vote StriX You promised before that it is acceptable to lynch a lurker if there is no better scum read. StriX does not have a scum read, so votes a lurker.. You call him out for this? Is that not odd? I happened to notice that StriX voted TeMiL.... a confirmed MAFIA.. do you not find it odd that when Strix votes a mafia player.. you retaliate by voting Strix? Please explain. (c) + Show Spoiler [Summary] + On January 05 2013 19:12 jampidampi wrote: I will try to gather here the big events of D1 leading to the misslynch of StriX. 38. TeMiL comes out of nowhere and votes me. @Spaghetticus ... @Mocsta ... @zarepath ... What is odd is that you acknowledge TeMiL votes for you (out of nowhere)... yet the 3 people you choose to question further are Spag, Mocsta and zarepath (all confirmed town). The rest of your filter does not question TeMiL...is it not odd that you accept this vote, and do not challenge it? Please explain. (d) + Show Spoiler [Mocsta case(s)] + (1) On January 05 2013 02:29 jampidampi wrote: @Sylencia ... You overlook the fact that I voted for him because he has no actions that have only town motives behind them. (2) On January 08 2013 05:42 jampidampi wrote: ...(Accusation) They help Mocsta establish a protown image while making others appear as more suspicious. So you admit I am establishing a town image, and by being protown implies only town motives.. yet you make a case on me? P.S. I am now confirmed town btw. Please explain. (e) + Show Spoiler [Peculiarities] + (e.1) + Show Spoiler [Flying Under the Radar] + Between your summary post, and the case on me. The only content you discussed pertained to setups. You did not actively scum hunt, and contribute in the on going discussion. The time that elapsed between your summary post and the case on me was approximately 30 hrs. I understand you want all your posts to be meaningful; but that is not an acceptable time span between meaningful contributions. If anything, it looks like "flying under the radar" a trait you described earlier in question (a) as a scum tendency. Please explain. (e.2) + Show Spoiler [Potential Slip] + On January 04 2013 16:26 jampidampi wrote: The OP provided the role PMs for each role. In the scum role PMs there is a direct link to the scum QT... Your response was pretty standard answer to a question that any alignment could respond with. Considering all the questions I have regarding you above.. the behaviour patterns are looking scummy. Of course, I offered that olive branch, so in being open minded: Combining all the information I am now aware of, OmniEulogy question to you, appears as a genuine scum slip (on your behalf). Please explain. | ||
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jampidampi.. i expect an answer to all the questions above by the time I wake up tomorrow.. i.e. ~12-14hrs from now. I do not require formalised responses... dot points are enough to address the concerns. If you answer satisfactorily, we shall progress to Sylencia. Thank you for your efforts | ||
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Thank you for answering the questions addressed to you in a timely manner. I found your contributions to those questions significantly more meaningful than the rest of your filter from prior. Thus, I can see your recognise the importance of this choice. zarepath is correct; we don't care why *YOU* think Sylencia is scum. We care about *HOW*/*WHY* you will persuade us he is scum. Your quote is not doing much for your prognosis. On January 10 2013 02:37 jampidampi wrote: Notice how Syl never pressures his scumread, at all. All he does is make a case on someone, then forgets about it. He doesn't even pressure them before making the case. His votes come and go with impulsive traits. It seems that it doesn't matter to him who is lynched. This is even seen in his reasoning on staying on me D1. I am going to have to 100% outright disagree on this jampidampi. + Show Spoiler [1st pressure on jampidampi] + On January 05 2013 01:44 Sylencia wrote: My vote before I go to bed will be currently going to jampi. I'll be back before the deadline, so jampi, if you have a defense, feel free to post it. This is the reason you have given us for a lack of posts. It's one of your first posts, so it's actually more of a pre-emptive explanation of why you would be lurking. You have answered the questions presented, but you do not give us your insight unless asked. This gives me the impression you have to formulate thoughts before giving the answer. If you are a townie, there needs to be more spontaneous input when you observe something that strikes you as being off. You posted some of your town reads, but a lot of it was based on some meta-reads and the logic behind them was still a little flawed. (The reason why the QT was brought up as a potential scum play was because it feigns ignorance, not sure if this was explained.) (Mentioning your scum play from last game doesn't make you more town, it can also be used to distance yourself from your previous game, and thus give the illusion of playing more town) After that, you start to zero in on Strix. Your suspicion only came to light once Mocsta had come and asked you about Strix. This strikes me as suspicious, because it really comes out of nowhere. This is why I would say if you were town, you would bring it up when you saw fit to. Ask questions about it earlier. Instead, there's a sudden accusation followed by a few points made about his posts. In one of your points, you mention how he targets the biggest lurker we have in the group, even though he said in his policy statement he wants to LAL. If anything, that only reinforces the fact he was, at the time since he did end up retracting the vote, following what he said. Your second last statement essentially says 'what I stated against you could be town or could be scum', essentially being on the fence about whether or not he is scum. If he flips, you have some insurance if he is town by saying 'looks like it was town motivated.' Basically, your posts give the impression you're on the fence about whether he is scum or not, you say he is contributing nothing, but you do not provide cases for anyone else and choose to tunnel on Strix. ##Vote jampi + Show Spoiler [2nd pressure on jampidampi] + On January 05 2013 10:47 Sylencia wrote: ... If he has such a weak case, why couldn't he have strengthened it any more by asking more questions, as he said he would in his first few posts. Instead, all that we get are answers to questions and accusations. It's not exactly good enough to say you have little to no information to go off, and leave it be and vote. It's slack, and it's scummy because it shows you don't care about the consequences of tunneling a player... + Show Spoiler [3rd pressure on jampidampi] + On January 08 2013 01:03 Sylencia wrote: So basically, for jampi, I already did him for Day 1, so adding to it for day 2: This is attempted analysis, but it doesn't say anything at all. Doesn't state if he thinks it's a RB or JK, it's just statements which could have been drawn pretty easily by anyone. The case on Mocsta is the only other big post on day 2, it's not really a solid case either. It honestly rates about the same level as Strix's case he posted which I said was weak on Day 1 as well. Jampi, you're flying under the radar more than pretty much anyone here. Are you following your own advice or are you just playing badly? When we are making a critical decision to bandwagon jampidampi on Day2.. Sylencia is the person who decides to think rationally and ensure we clear OmniEulogy first, by questioning him... thus as a continuation of "3rd pressure on jampidampi" we get a vote on OmniEulogy as follows: + Show Spoiler [Pressure vote on OmniEulogy to ensure…] + On January 08 2013 01:03 Sylencia wrote: Omni: ... -- Basically, jampi still looks suspicious as hell, no real contribution, trying to fly under the radar in Day 2 - still giving no real clues to his being town (if he is at all), but the last few posts Omni have made while what seems to be half-asleep really makes me wonder if he just slipped up. Lesson learned from NMM33: People make slips. If you ignore them, you could lose the game from it. ##Vote OmniEulogy As an aside, I have noticed in your evidence for Sylencia to be scum, and your evidence for Mocsta to be scum that you attempted to twist facts into your argument. Very strong confirmation bias. That you can call Sylencia impulsive is ridiculous. Him and cDgCorazon were the two players that have been the most meticulous in questioning everyone. OmniEulogy and myself are the impulsive two....How you can not see this is mind boggling. THAT you can't see Sylencia pressures people is mind boggling. I have pointed out 3 situations he has pressured YOU.. there are also others he has pressured. This confirmation bias is too strong. You are not helping your cause... but it has only been 24 hrs out of 48hrs. I believe in fairness; so I am going to give you one more chance to address the above AND convince zarepath and myself that you are town. P.S. if you pass this test, question time on Sylencia will start. You have 8 hrs to respond, other you receive my vote | ||
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Some further questions for you, now that I have pondered your reply in more detail. (1) + Show Spoiler [The vote count analysis that MATTERS] + On January 10 2013 00:03 jampidampi wrote: Three other players voted on StriX, not just me. If my suspicions of StriX would be just him voting for TeMiL, why would others have voted for him? When StriX was lynched: Votecount: StriX (4): jampidampi, OmniEulogy, Spaghetticus, cDgCorazon jampidampi (2): Sylencia, TeMiL OmniEulogy (3): Mocsta, zarepath, StriX Now that we know TeMiL is mafia.. Why would both mafia vote together against you.. it does NOT make sense. [INDEnt] If we include context from Day 1, the previous 2 candidates were StriX and jampidampi. Sylencia stayed on you, you stayed on Strix... Omni made a case on Strix, cDgCorazon agreed. Spag moved as well... Taking this all in... it makes NO SENSE for two mafia to be voting jampidampi.. Sylencia was not a prime candidate, thus, there was no requirement for two votes to start a bandwagon. Further, it would be typical for mafia to distance their votes, again exemplified by your vote on Strix, and TeMiL on Sylencia. Please explain TL;DR On further Vote Count Analysis of Day 1 "it makes NO SENSE for two mafia to be voting jampidampi". (2) + Show Spoiler [Following up...(or lack of)] + On January 05 2013 19:12 jampidampi wrote: I will try to gather here the big events of D1 leading to the misslynch of StriX. 38. TeMiL comes out of nowhere and votes me. @Spaghetticus ... @Mocsta ... @zarepath ... Others had already questioned TeMiL enough for me. I could see that he was not responding to anything, so why ask if I wouldn't get an answear? Instead I chose to question the ones that were at that point the most suspicious to me, Spag for his big posts that were on policies and acting in way that would allow him to jump on any bandwagon on almost anyone, zare for jumping on bandwagons and not giving the analysis promised, you for being sure that StriX would flip town. Bizarre... you say you DID NOT question TeMiL because noone was responding? Let me point you to your own quotes... On January 05 2013 19:27 jampidampi wrote: @Mocsta Do you still think Omni is scum? If you do, please pressure him more. Follow up On January 07 2013 04:49 jampidampi wrote: @Mocsta I think you have had enough time to think of this. So I ask again, do you still Omni is scum? If not what in his paly changed your opinion? 2nd follow up On January 08 2013 23:58 jampidampi wrote: @Mocsta: Now that I have answeared all the question, it is your turn. Answear me. You claim that my case for you is weak, if this is true, then go ahead and rip it apart. I bet you cannot actually do that. So I wasn't responding to you.. but you could request me 3 times to contact you. For TeMiL.. you could not respond once... Please Explain. TL;DR jampidampi does not follow up on TeMiL because he was "not responding to anything" YET. jampidampi follows up multiple times on myself, but I was "not responding" either. | ||
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Perhaps 8hrs was too quick. I will extend my deadline by 4hrs.. hence, you would have had 12hrs to reply. Otherwise my hammer vote will be issued to you. | ||
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On January 10 2013 15:59 jampidampi wrote: (2) Your situation and TeMiLs were different. TeMiL wasn't answearing at all. Others questioned him. You answeared others, but not my quetions. Many questioned TeMiL about his vote, few questioned you. I have serious issues with this comment. Many people questioned his vote... Well guess what.. i just did a thread search of "all" pages, and "TeMiL".. Received about 560 hits. There is only 1 question posted to TeMiL after Day 1. On January 05 2013 10:38 OmniEulogy wrote: @TeMiL Give us your thoughts on what happened during the first Day. What do you think about who got lynched? Why did you vote for Jampi? Who are your top scum reads? Why do you not post often? What do you think about the cases that have been made on people? I'd like these answers before the end of N1. You've had more than enough time and clearly you read the thread and know when things are happening. On January 05 2013 13:04 OmniEulogy wrote: I should add that I'm not targeting TeMiL as a scum suspect. I asked him those questions to get him to contribute. I believe trying to figure out what he is atm is useless. Maybe after he answers those questions we'll be able to have some sort of read but I'm not getting my hopes up. Just Keep thinking what you will though. Your going to have to do better than this jampidampi. Please address the outstanding questions. I know you know where they are | ||
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I have 1 question for you. (1) + Show Spoiler [Spaghetticus concerns] + On January 07 2013 15:16 Spaghetticus wrote: ... Syl and Mocsta are now being read because I know that they are both capable of gaining town status as scum. ... Syl sits on the line of activity that I would call 'optimal scum activity'. He is not a lurker, and he has not need to lie or mislead town. Town has mislead themselves, so his near riskless play puts him in a perfect survival state where all he has to do is post analytic truths and town will detonate on their own. ... Spaghetticus raises valid points. Please address these. | ||
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I believe this is the hammer vote... i.e. the only way Sylencia can be voted is with 4 votes, which is essentialyl impossible (Sylencia wouldnt vote to lynch himself) | ||
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seriously... Whilst I thought Spag decision to cop you was odd.. now.. it was a saviour... if you were not confirmed.. due to your activity over Night 2/Day3, I would probably push for your lynch; or at a minimum severely pressure you. | ||
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i actually thougth sylencia reply was weird. ohh well | ||
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On January 11 2013 12:37 cDgCorazon wrote: I just think you need to stop having ridiculous amounts of confirmation bias Moc. It hurt the town so much this game. If you would have lynched Jampi D2 instead of Spag, it would've been a lot easier to point out Syl, and Spag could have done a better job of arguing his innocence. Im not going to say anything more to this than the below. I think you are being unreasonable in your statement. I don't disagree with the confirmation bias. The obs qt clearly indicates what they thought; some of it was disapointing to read, but honesty is appreciated none-the-less. Its a shame, because it was a goal of mine to reduce the tunneling; obviously I failed. I will contest the overall statement however. I think from where you are sitting, its very easy to point a finger to suggest one point of blame; instead I would think that in general there was a severe lack of critical thinking. *note with the following, I am not saying my cases are good*.. I would also suggest that: if all of my cases/reads were so poor, then why did others bandwagon with me. You say I led the town astray, perhaps I did.. but why was no one critically questioning the cases/reads I gave? I think the blame is to be distributed to the many participants of town; not just myself. Im not taking anything away from Sylencia.. until his last post, i thought he was set town. Hence, to me, he did an excellent job, even though everyone in the QT is obviously a vet and picked up on him straight away. If you read the mafia QT, he was pretty much flying solo, and even more amazing effort on his behalf. FYI, though Sylencia last post made me reconsider everything; I did not bother anymore to push him, because zarepath voted and jampidampi rage quitted.. what would the point be. I wrote the hammer vote thing because, with 3 votes. you need 4 to overtake which was impossible; and if i voted no-lynch, jampidampi was still on the table. lose/lose situation. | ||
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And noted on the hammer vote, makes sense, but I didn't put two and two together at the time. | ||
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what jampi tried to do unfortunately mimic'd that. As an aside. Regardless of whether my reads are.right or wrong. the heuristic to assume newbie scum are inactive is weak. | ||
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On January 11 2013 16:00 cDgCorazon wrote: I know it sounded like I was being an asshole, but I was just trying to be pragmatic and keep all of my options open and think for myself. I don't think you were ever an asshole in the game. I thought you were the key. To refresh your memory this was from my Night 1 post, I thought I was 50/50 with your for the NK. On January 06 2013 01:07 Mocsta wrote: cDgCorazon Overall I like the way you are playing, and its good you called me out. That was a completely sound play. The only thing I will say to you regarding the above is.. Towards the end, I think you were blinded by my actions and begun to tunnel me. Because I think you are a critical component of this game, I tried my best to answer your questions with respect (but I REALLY wanted to just tell you to fuck off). I am telling you this because for Day2, town REALLY will need your pragmatic approach to continue. | ||
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On January 12 2013 00:16 Dandel Ion wrote: 3) Mocsta: STOP BREAKING RULES FFS Not every host is as incredibly lenient as I am. You could get modkilled for the first transgression, especially if it's not a newbie game. I have been amazingly patient with you, .... Yes, you were very patient. I appreciate it, and have learnt my lessons. Thank you for not modkilling me. | ||
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But when that cop claim came out, i was on the bus and on the phone so didnt give it the thought it needed. In the end though, just because I say im voting you, doesnt mean everyone else has to sheep me. Everyone is accountable for their own actions. | ||
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