Newbie Mini Mafia XXXII

On December 05 2012 01:41 Rad wrote:
I'm all caught up now.

@kick

Not sure what else to say to you about your concerns with me but TBH that's just my play style. I'm a bit embarrassed that I totally missed the jkjk but what happens is I read something really stupid and then feel the need to jump on it immediately. Feel free to glance over my previous games (XXIX and XXX) if you'd like to see this in action.

@CC

1. "I have no idea who to lynch, but I can justify it because of this post!" - this hasn't happened, why even speculate that it will happen? What's the point of casting suspicion on me for something I haven't even done?

2. If kick's idea was sincere, I'd have major problems with it (as I've already said). My concern there was your quoting "shit idea" as if it wasn't one. I thought perhaps you read his idea differently than how I did, thus my question.

3. Kick literally FoS's yamato then immediately turns around and says "weeelll maybe I'm being too harsh, what's everyone else's thoughts?" Looks like useless trying to be useful. I wanted to get him to talk more about it instead of letting him push it back out onto everyone else.

Thoughts so far:

- leaning scum on kick - just my gut initial feeling, I'm going to focus more on looking into it when I have time after work tonight
- leaning town on yamato - he's acting just like last game IMO, I feel like he'd have to change things up if he were scum
- mind blown trying to understand axle, but I'm happy that he's trying now (his change feels super newbie town, so leaning town) and want to see where he goes with his oats discussion
- leaning town on CC, I feel like he was much less confrontational in his scum game and he's asking good questions

Other reads are pretty null

Going to be fairly lurky today, until tonight when I'm off work and can focus on everything, but wanted to get this post out there in the meantime. I will try to get chances throughout the day to respond when possible.

On December 05 2012 01:29 Oatsmaster wrote:
Kickstart is scummy.




Last game, we lynched lurkers and it didnt go too well, vets posted and said that its unlikely that a scum is a lurker and STILL
Kickstart posts this. It reads as very wishy, washy allowing him to keep all his options open.
Lynching a lurker is good for scum because it doesnt really show strong opinions either way because its a lurker, coinflippy.




This vote is so bad, no explaination why this is scum..




Kickstart is looking for town support here, he doesnt want to vote yamato if no one else votes for him...

His whole case on yamato is just him jumping on a small thing that he doesnt even explain how it is scum aligned or even aligned at all.

##Vote: Kickstart

On December 04 2012 15:59 Kickstart wrote:
Right, I know it is early in the game but I am just going to throw this out there and try to make it as comprehensive as I can to try and get some real conversation going. So far I have some suspicions on Yamato and Rad. (I will also note that as an aside that Rad defended Yamato against one of my questions but association cases are bad day 1, just interesting that there are two people I find suspicious and one is defending the other.)

Yamato77
As I have stated before, I find Yamato's incessant policy talk a bit suspicious and that was the first thing to draw my attention to him. I have to look at it and see what his possible intentions could be. As town, policy talk is ok to start with, but I think it is best to say what needs to be said and not dwell on it much, where as scum would try and drown the thread with as much policy talk as possible as it is really unlikely to gain any useful information from it.
Taking a look at Yamato's filter shows that most of it is policy talk and then he has an exchange with Axl. Now on his points against Axl I am in agreement. Axl is posting way too much in the way of "I am a noob and everyone else here is better than me" and things of that sort, and I too expect this to end. But I am not sure if the way Yamato reacted to this is town oriented. I can't help but feel that from a town perspective, someone would be a bit more helpful and not putting so much pressure on him and then throwing a vote on him when he doesn't respond. To elaborate a bit:

So far Axl is putting out this vibe of being a noobie. Now I won't say town or scum because he is not doing a great job of answering questions and is really posting way too much about how noobie he thinks he is. To me, a town would look at this and react by first encouraging Axl but then pushing him slightly. A good example would be to give some support but to remind him that he needs to just post what he is thinking and why for the sake of town clarity. Here is my post directed at Axl:



I gave as much support as I could but I also made it clear that it is important for Axl to post what he is thinking and why; and note that other players reacted in much the same way as I did.

Now look at the way Yamato reacts to Axl:









This is almost the exact opposite reaction that I and pretty much everyone else in the thread have displayed in regards to Axl. Yamato is being really aggressive (I used the term badgering earlier). He doesn't see that there is a timid first timer and try and be encouraging but productive, he instead seems to try and take this opportunity to attack and throw his vote onto a noobie town.


Rad
On Rad only one thing has stuck out to me so far. He took a post (this time by me) and immediately jumped on it. I made a post earlier joking that we should lynch oats for his play last game (was just kidding Oats <3 ) which was followed by a "jkjk" post. In my mind Rad was reading through the thread, saw the first post and then replied without even bothering to read further (where he would have found the "jkjk"). Again I look at this and think a) what would a town player do, and then, b) what would a scum player do. For me the initial town reaction would be to just say something like "wow that is really dumb, why would you focus on something that happened last game" and then he would move on (unless the person was for whatever reason really serious about it - which seems very unlikely). The initial scum reaction would be to see it as an opportunity to attack.
Here are the three posts, first two by me and third is his response to my first post:







Now this could be read as a post from either alignment, but to me I lean scum on his post. As I said I would expect a town player to just dismiss it out of hand (look at Oats post where he is jokes back with me about not holding grudges from previous games etc) and move on unless I was serious about it and pushed it further, but Rad seems to really want to push this and looks like he is trying to make a case of it by preempting his objection with "...rather than scum hunting and lynching your biggest scum read?"

Unfortunately I immediately revealed that I was joking and then the whole thing was dropped, otherwise I could have maybe pressed it a bit and gotten more of a reaction from him, but again I view his initial reaction as slightly scummy.

/serious portion

And just for lolz my day 1 association case that I promised: (this is not serious respond to my other points that I made above this you jerks):

On December 05 2012 16:26 Rad wrote:
Kickstart, the try-hard scum

Last game didn't work out so well for him. He was scum, got caught, and lost the game. For any of you who followed this, perhaps you'll remember a bit about how it was played out. He was an ass, and he has claimed (before this game) that this would continue to be his meta. I see some of you are fooled by it, but all you have to do is read his previous game and note that the differences aren't all that drastic.

Scum doesn't care who dies, as long as it's town

From NMM XXXI:


Here he votes oats not because he feels oats is scum (everyone can use the word "scummy"), but because oats isn't being productive town. NOT a reason to vote town.

This is of course the prelude to today's WTF moment of:



"So Rad, if kick did this shit last game, why would he do it this game?"

Let me point you to promo's huge post giving him and helo some suggestions:

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=381931&currentpage=83#1660

Some interesting things to note (that I think are noticably different from his last game and this game):

1. "You needed to make your reads and stick to them. Scum often want to sit back and allow town to make cases for them, you needed to make your cases stronger and to push them instead of being wishy washy."

As scum, he needs to change his meta to be more in your face and consistent. He's doing exactly this. Last game, he'd just talk shit, but wouldn't follow through with it. This game, he's adapted.

2. "Always take the chance, as scum, to attack the townie doing something so dumb that you can't understand it."

I don't know how this suggestion could be more literal than kick, literally, calling Axle dumb and voting him. Were you LOLing when you made that vote kick, thinking no one would fucking get it?

"Ok ok, Rad, enough of the meta shit, is that all you got?"

Of course not. Wtf.

Take the easy prey, and stick to it

I tend to jump on "shit ideas" quickly. This is how I play. You can read my last 2 games (NMMXXIX and NMMXXX) and see that's what I do. I did it vs scum debears in the first game, and vs town debears in the second game, and many more times throughout those games.

I did it here too, to kick's shit idea, and proceeded to question him about it.





Yeah, I missed the jkjk. TT. I apologized and moved on.

As soon as kick notices the weakness though (which is after he posts the above), he realizes he has an opportunity to pounce:



Fine, confusing question, but I respond:



Seems pretty straight forward to me.

Now CC jumps in with a good, smart question:



I reply to CC, and kick jumps in:



OK kick, sure buddy, you saw that cheese had a smarter question than you and decided to attempt to sheep it, all the while pushing suspicion on me (I "brushed it away"? wtf no I answered your question) and suggesting it was a **SCUM TRAP!!!***

And where does this go? Kick literally throws out a "HUGE post" about yamato and me, with the only point being about my mistaken questioning of his joke (which he, again, takes the opportunity to point out that "oh bummer I should have caught him in my scumtrap because he's obviously scum".)



He then proceeds to whine about no one reading his post, and how everyone's stupid because of it (read after his "HUGE post" about me and yamato), attempting to give himself more town credit (also note that I responded to his post before he started whining, and he did not persue me further - satisfied with my answer or scum too lazy to push the issue?).

To summarize:

1. Has fooled many by acting like a more vocal "can't possibly be scum" asshole rather than a "pick your targets carefully" asshole.

2. Clearly sheep's CC's reasoning and attempts to push suspicion onto me after the fact, as if it were his plan all along.

3. Tried to increase the importance of his "HUGE post" by calling people out for "not reading it" and basically saying "acknowledge me or I will ignore you."

4. Failed the ultimate test of voting for the correct (townie) reason: town does not vote for "dumb" as he put it, town votes for scum. Then plays it off as "scum trap" when I call him out on it and OMGUS votes me.

I am now exhausted and going to bed. I will read and respond to replies to this when I get a chance tomorrow, but again, I'll be working and only have limited availability until I'm done (should be around the same time as today, but will try to push for getting done earlier since lynch is tomorrow).