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Palmar
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On December 10 2012 09:21 Clarity_nl wrote: See thrawn, I read the OP. Unlike last time. Rookie mistake. Just so we're all on the same page, for experimental purposes I'm going to be breaking day 1 down tonight, without knowing my own alignment. This means that during work (the next 8 hours) and other normal life stuff (the 3 hours after that) I won't be commenting much on the game. I'm reading the game through now. Once I'm done with tonight's reading session I'll play as normal (and check my alignment). | ||
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Anyway, I have now checked my alignment and I need to read the last few pages. | ||
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On December 11 2012 07:59 thrawn2112 wrote: palmer: I haven't watched the video yet, but didn't you realize that if we are to trust that you haven't read your role pm, then we can't make any reads based on your thoughts so far? If you don't know your alignment then how do you expect us to figure it out? Was this purely done for your own benefit/amusement or what? It's an experimental thing, has very little to do with the game and I'm perfectly aware you can't make any conclusions about my alignment from it. But the reads are genuine, so at least there's that. | ||
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@marv: Why do you not want to kill adam? right from hist first post in the thread I noticed something off about his posting, and I don't have a problem with debears's case. I also agree with clarity's case on jay. In addition I don't think Vivax is scum. I'm not sure on bugs, I need to understand how and why he's picking a fight with me. I honestly thought he knew I was going to stream but it looks like he was completely unaware, or his outburst against me would've been kinda pointless | ||
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On December 11 2012 09:16 Clarity_nl wrote: Perhaps, but I didn't really have any eye opening moments. I think your video benefits scum more since you were taking the perspective of a townie, meaning most of what you said aligned with my thoughts. Why do you think Vivax isn't scum? Very little reason I explained it near the end of the video, he made one comment that seemed more likely to be coming from a townie (he made a mistake regarding counterclaims and how they work). I pointed out it's slightly more likely he's made that error as town simply due to mafia more often second checking their posting. It's a weak reason and I'm not going to militantly defend him, but between adam, jay, perhaps begs, we have better targets. | ||
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On December 11 2012 09:18 debears wrote: Palmar I love you right now <3 you better not be scum. | ||
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FIGHT THE GOOD FIGHT AGAINST STUPIDITY CLARITY, I BELIEVE IN YOU! | ||
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But I think I want to lynch adam. You on board with me buddy? | ||
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##Vote Adam4167 Everything about his game seems slightly off, and I think it's the better lynch between him and Jay. In fact, I think my other lynch options at this point would be WBG or Djodref (who has basically disappeared). | ||
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I think Adam slipped up right on his first post as I mentioned in the video. Let's murder him, shall we? Also I'm not sure how much I like this Tunkeg case. | ||
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I think I explained in the video why I don't like Adam's first post: On December 10 2012 09:56 Adam4167 wrote: Thrawn, I don't know you, can you link me some of your games as scum on here. Basically, it's a legit question, but it's very easy to just click on someone's profile, go to posts and find recent games. Maybe Adam's just being lazy, but this post reeks of him trying to convey to the thread that he's going to be actively looking at people. On December 10 2012 10:28 Adam4167 wrote: Town you from ACME says that you disagree with the idea of millers claiming, and that you don't even know what your thought process would be for deciding if its real or not. Why are you trying to put everyone else in a similar position of confusion? If I wanted to call you scum, I would have. What I want to know is why you are doing what you are doing. Again, I'm working on the assumption Adam isn't dumb. It's pretty clear what thrawn is doing, and trying to wonder about it is dumb and pointless. Adam is lingering way too much on a silly stunt pulled by a random person, and asking all the wrong questions. On December 10 2012 11:55 Adam4167 wrote: That's OK, you don't need to like me. Your 'case' isn't much of one, I said I don't know if hes scum or not, so why would I vote him? I feel I've been very transparent about why i'm doing what i'm doing, to try and get some semblance of a read on Thrawn for his early actions. Right now i'm putting him in the 'I don't know what the hell hes doing' category. Again, he's coming on with this idea that thrawn's actions require extensive analysis, it's very clear (to me at least) what thrawn is doing, and either it means he's scum and fucked up, or he's town and has a terrible plan-idea-thing. I concluded the latter to be the case, but adam seems really confused by something so elementary. On December 10 2012 12:45 Adam4167 wrote: He announced in thread to be voting for Thrawn, but the vote never made it into the voting thread, then he builds a case on me around not voting on someone that I had said I wasn't sure of the alignment of. Ill be watching him closely today. Not putting shit in the voting thread is not scummy at all, and hardly worth talking about. I don't know why Adam keeps obsessing about irrelevant things this game. Also "I'll be watching him closely today." made me laugh. It's just how he's saying it that gets my lynchfinger all twitchy. --- In addition to this Adam calls debears out for not voting him, which is yet another thing I find fairly irrelevant, the action of voting adds or relieves no pressure at all in this game, it's the mind behind it that does. Everything Adam has done and said this game feels careful, calculated and often irrelevant and inconclusive. He should be the lynch for today. | ||
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On December 11 2012 19:11 wherebugsgo wrote: also wtf on scumread on me Well you did do dumb shit twice now a) trying to kill thrawn for something that probably is just an idiot townie move and you know it. b) trying to kill me for doing something I think I even mentioned doing before the game, even after I told you exactly when and how I would contribute. So don't act all surprised. | ||
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On December 11 2012 19:24 wherebugsgo wrote: Bro I tried to kill you cause you were 80% scum. Bro. As for thrawn I'm just tired of stupid shit. Every game it's something new and stupider. Neither of these things is a reason to call me scum, so don't be surprised when I call you out on your bullshit. I'm not your bro dude. | ||
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On December 11 2012 19:38 thrawn2112 wrote: bleh it wasn't a "plan" or whatever everyone is making it out to be. I wanted the game to start immediately so I did something that was silly enough to comment on and the whole thing got taken way more seriously than I planned. But I didn't really care because I really do not mind being a topic of discussion, if anything it makes you more emotionally involved in the game. it was mostly a joke based on an assumption that everyone assumes everyone else reads the op and especially the role list. I was not trying to convince anyone that I was actually a miller... but people started making it into a much bigger issue than I had planned so I just went along with it for a bit to see what would happen. I have seen people posting in this thread who say i'm town but also appear confused as to what I was trying to do... (mostly nothing other than get the game going) I still dont think it was some awful, terrible play everyone is calling it but I'd rather take that up in the end game. I know this post isn't really related to the game but I'm getting a little annoyed seeing people talk about how I had a dumb townie plan when it wasn't really a 'plan' to begin with. The problem with your idea for starting the game immediately is that there is going to be a little voice in the back of everyone's head for the entire game "maybe thrawn is actually mafia and fucked up". It's happened before, scum have fucked up and claimed miller on day 1. You could have achieved the same result without creating this escape route for the mafia. If you then turn it around and play the most successful game of your life it's going to be fine. But what happens if you screw up a bit, bet on the wrong lynches, vote for the wrong people, then on day 4 in lylo or something, you're still sitting there, not dead, not having helped the town scumhunt... someone will remember your stunt from day 1, and suddenly maybe it's you who gets lynched, and we lose the game. I mean, if you're scum, this would have been a great play to exploit the fact you've not played enough games for everyone here to know you, but I honestly think you're town. The point is while your goal was an admirable one, the way you chose to achieve it created an unnecessary problem, which could have been avoided had you chosen other means to reach your goal. | ||
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Also, it's never the easy lynch. If you switch your vote Adam will be ahead of Jay. | ||
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Did you know that if I had to guess the scum team right now I would probably shoot for this team: Bugs Djodref Adam VE But that doesn't change the fact I might be off base, and the case against Jay is a good one, so maybe that's where we need to go. But meh, this is what I want to do, I want to kill adam. | ||
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http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17205299 Did you not read it? I also touched on it quite a bit in my video. | ||
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But my thoughts on him are pretty well summed up in that post I made. How about you read my post instead of dabears's Vivix? You're shit. | ||
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On December 11 2012 22:06 marvellosity wrote: Hi Palmar. Taking Adam out, do you prefer Jay over Tunkeg or vice versa? Jay | ||
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On December 11 2012 22:21 marvellosity wrote: Is there something you've seen from Tunkeg that suggests to you he is town? Not really, but I think clarity's analysis of Jay's play so far is much more likely to hit home than bugs's meta read on Tunkeg. I agree that I wish Tunkeg would play differently, but I can't really lynch everyone who doesn't play like I want them to. | ||
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On December 11 2012 22:31 wherebugsgo wrote: cool, you want to lynch probably the easiest mislynch on TL mafia over someone who clearly does not care about scumhunting. Not to mention, the strongest part of my case isn't the meta, it's the fact that Tunkeg is completely indifferent to the events of the game. Only when presented with these two options, remember Marv's question implied I could only pick one or the other. Don't try to twist my words into something they're not. We agree that Adam is most likely scum, so let's do this? I mean marv thinks he's scum too, that's a lot of big names who think Adam is scum. What are we waiting for? | ||
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On December 11 2012 22:37 wherebugsgo wrote: I'm not twisting shit. You said you like jay over tunkeg, which is indicative that you're not reading the thread. I just don't understand how you can find jay scummier than tunkeg. It's like we're not playing the same game. Have you never played with jay before?! How do you not understand how easy of a mislynch he is? That's a pretty harsh accusation when you have it on video that I read at least half of it very carefully. I've played with Jay before, I remember defending him in some mini game or something. But it's completely irrelevant, remember that my theory is that he's actually not scum, that doesn't make the case against him irrelevant as my theory could be wrong. Like you're harping on the point that in a vacuum given 2 players I'd choose one over the other as something relevant to the thread. I can also tell you that I'd lynch marv over debears, but who cares about that I'm not trying to lynch either of them, just like I'm not trying to lynch Jay. It's interesting you're reading so much into my non-primary targets. I can also tell you that I would rather lynch you than Jay, just so we're clear. But adam is the guy I want to lynch. Why are you so obsessed with the order I'd lynch two grey area players? | ||
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On December 11 2012 22:42 wherebugsgo wrote: I don't think we can necessarily credit Palmar with the push on Adam, given that everyone so far in the game has found him scummy, but I agree with you. I like both pushes but I disagree with Palmar's other reads, which almost certainly means something is off. I'm curious, though. If you had to name 4 scum right now, who would you name? That's quite an overstatement when talking about a guy somehow getting three votes on him. | ||
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On December 11 2012 22:42 Bluelightz wrote: Vivax, do you understand the difference between the both? dabears post is only a simple thing of pointing out/answering a question, however Adam has pushed thrawn heavily. See the difference? Also, dabear if you could explain/join this talk it would be nice. In what universe did this happen? | ||
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But honestly, there's plenty of targets to go after right now. @Marv, do you really think bugsface is town? | ||
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On December 11 2012 23:33 Bluelightz wrote: Woops. By that I mean he has more posts on thrawn then a simple point on someone He has a ton of pointless inquiries that never became anything more than just him asking a bunch of stupid questions anyone with half a brain could've answered themselves. | ||
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We have enough on our plate for now, but it's something to keep in mind for later. Also this VE guy is so silent it hurts. | ||
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On December 12 2012 00:37 debears wrote: Wtf???? You jump from thrawn, to me, to vivax (you made a long post on vivax), and now Tunkeg (and you have said nothing about him) This guys is scum yo To be fair I don't think he ever called thrawn scum. | ||
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On December 12 2012 07:47 Vivax wrote: Debby, yours is probably the most persistent tunneling I have witnessed in my short unsuccessful mafia career, I hope you hit the right spot. you and me both bro | ||
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On December 12 2012 09:03 debears wrote: Only if he's town palmar, only if he's town That's the assumption. Also can we like get a vote or two extra on Adam just to prevent any last minute shenanigans? | ||
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The case on Adam is a legit one. Feel free to yell at me if things don't go as planned. | ||
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Also, this last-minute claim is so bad. | ||
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On December 12 2012 17:57 wherebugsgo wrote: my play is clean, so I'm scum...the fuck? I could play like a retard, but no one likes when I do that. I'm a big fan. Also you're scum. | ||
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Bugs didn't vote Adam, so he must be scum. I'm completely serious, I will tunnel the fuck out of him tomorrow. | ||
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On December 12 2012 18:27 wherebugsgo wrote: go for it, noob. If you're town, you really are just nothing more than a noob for thinking I'm scum. Oh shit you hurt my feelings. But are you not the noob for not supporting my case on Adam? Oh wait, you're not, because you're scum. I mean after all we can conclusively prove that I was right. | ||
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On December 12 2012 16:07 Djodref wrote: He did it when it was not sure yet that Adam would be lynched. And he discedited people voting Adam. ”there is scum pn this wagon” Hello Djodref: You are not required to post anything more at all in this thread. Everything you've said has been dumb, useless and I think you're either scum or bad. In both cases, please just shut up and only vote according to what I tell you. | ||
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On December 12 2012 18:57 wherebugsgo wrote: shoot me so I don't have to keep fucking around defending myself against people who are right Now this I can get behind. | ||
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I asked are YOU down for killing bugs. I don't care what the popular opinion is. | ||
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On December 12 2012 21:34 Djodref wrote: @ thrawn I didn't know what the fuck you were trying to do at first when you said "not explaining why I did this at all". At first, I was expecting you to simply admit that you wanted to spark discussing with this obvious fakeclaim but I didn't understand why you went into that "not explaining anything at all mode". I pressure voted you because I was still not so sure I had made the right choice at that time (i.e. town move or lying scum) and I wanted you to explain yourself for the following reasons:
Then, I thought about the comment you made in the Looney Game... Told you to stop posting. | ||
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On December 12 2012 22:34 marvellosity wrote: you're gonna have to bear with me, i need to check on some of the interactions you and him had on Day 1. There came a point where I thought you were pretty clearly town so I wanna see when he was doubting you. You can't see it but I'm raising my eyebrow at you being hesitant. | ||
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On December 12 2012 22:41 marvellosity wrote: question Palmar: if bugs flips scum, does that make it more or less likely (or the same) for you that VE is scum? Neither, I'll judge VE on his own actions when the time comes. | ||
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On December 12 2012 22:41 marvellosity wrote: no, you suck, you poohead. You suck for being so sure. It's blatantly obvious, did you even read his big post "adam is my number 2 read BUT UNDER THE RUG WITH THAT, LET'S KILL TUNKEG". | ||
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Cause that's exactly what I want to do. I agree with your points btw. | ||
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On December 12 2012 23:15 Bluelightz wrote: Honestly it's the only piece of dirt that makes WBG suspicious to me, besides his defense of Adam ofc. If there is a solid case on him I'll be sure to read up though. I don't need your thoughts, only your vote. | ||
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On December 13 2012 00:22 marvellosity wrote: we'll kill whoever is scummiest day by day, do some thinking for yourself for god's sakes. don't encourage them.... | ||
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On December 13 2012 00:36 Tunkeg wrote: Well, there are some seriously dumb people playing this game. If they happend to roll jk they need to be told what to do. Please list the people dumb enough. | ||
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On December 13 2012 00:45 Tunkeg wrote: Nah, its the same people I have called dumb earlier. Maybe they haven't noticed or forgot. Don't want to insult them more, they might just not do as told to spite me. I opened your filter and searched for dumb, you haven't called anyone dumb. So again I ask you, who is "seriously dumb"? | ||
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On December 13 2012 01:05 Tunkeg wrote: If you can't find anyone I call dumb or anyone I am portraying as dumb then so be it. You called thrawn's play stupid. That's about it. My problem here is that you're talking about things that don't exist, and unwilling to bear responsibility. If you're gonna be a hard-ass and call people stupid, you better man up and do it to their face. | ||
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Bugs is scum. Bugs is scum. Bugs is scum. Bugs is scum. Bugs is scum. Bugs is scum.
Bugs is scum. Bugs is scum. Bugs is scum. Bugs is scum. Bugs is scum. Bugs is scum. Bugs is scum. Bugs is scum. Bugs is scum. Bugs is scum. Bugs is scum. Bugs is scum. Bugs is scum. Bugs is scum. Bugs is scum. Bugs is scum. Bugs is scum. Bugs is scum. Bugs is scum. Bugs is scum. Bugs is scum. Bugs is scum. Bugs is scum. Bugs is scum. Bugs is scum. Bugs is scum. Bugs is scum. Bugs is scum. Bugs is scum. Bugs is scum. Bugs is scum. Bugs is scum. Bugs is scum. Bugs is scum. Bugs is scum. Bugs is scum. Bugs is scum. Bugs is scum. Bugs is scum. Bugs is scum. Bugs is scum. Bugs is scum. Bugs is scum. Bugs is scum. Bugs is scum. Bugs is scum. Bugs is scum. Bugs is scum. Bugs is scum. Bugs is scum. Bugs is scum. Bugs is scum. Bugs is scum. Bugs is scum. Bugs is scum. Bugs is scum. Bugs is scum. Bugs is scum. Bugs is scum. Bugs is scum. Bugs is scum. Bugs is scum. Bugs is scum. Bugs is scum. Bugs is scum. Bugs is scum. Bugs is scum. Bugs is scum. Bugs is scum. Bugs is scum. Bugs is scum. Bugs is scum. Bugs is scum. Bugs is scum. Bugs is scum. Bugs is scum. Bugs is scum. Bugs is scum. Bugs is scum. Bugs is scum. Bugs is scum. Bugs is scum. Bugs is scum. Bugs is scum. Bugs is scum. Bugs is scum. Bugs is scum. Bugs is scum. Bugs is scum. Bugs is scum. Bugs is scum. Bugs is scum. Bugs is scum. Bugs is scum. Bugs is scum. Bugs is scum. Bugs is scum. Bugs is scum. Bugs is scum. Bugs is scum. Bugs is scum. Bugs is scum. Bugs is scum. Bugs is scum. | ||
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and then he calls the other people stupid? I've drawn a picture of bugs right now | ||
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Bugs VE Djodref are all good lynches | ||
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On December 13 2012 08:47 Clarity_nl wrote: Palmar, no BL on your list? No, I think you're more likely to be scum than him. | ||
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On December 13 2012 09:06 thrawn2112 wrote: ok palmer, was that wbg stuff for real? he's scum, lynch him | ||
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On December 13 2012 09:29 Clarity_nl wrote: Palmar confirmed not reading the thread. It's boring anyway | ||
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On December 13 2012 09:33 wherebugsgo wrote: really? how so? I'm really curious to know this, so I can improve my scum play for the future. Stop trolling me. | ||
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On December 13 2012 09:36 wherebugsgo wrote: I'm not trolling you. I actually want to know how you caught me. already told you why I think you're scum. 1. you made some comment that made me think you had determined marv's alignment earlier than I'd expect you to 2. you did not consider or run with my wagon on adam, even when you claimed he was your #2 read. 3. your voting me didn't seem to have any direction with it, normally when people confront someone like that they look like they have a plan. | ||
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And you're high on the list of people that need to be thought again of. | ||
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I recall writing something about him earlier, that he was getting away with something. | ||
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Marv gets some relief because of how early he joined the Adam wagon, but I'm not completely sure on him. But it makes very little sense to go for him now. Dabears is also pretty clear. | ||
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On December 13 2012 12:43 Hapahauli wrote: Also, I'm really not getting any scummy vibes from Jay. Other than Adam's vote on him, there's some stuff like deliberately antagonizing Palmar (YOUR vs. YOU'RE), which seems fairly townie in context. Palmar didn't like Jay's posting, and Jay turns around and starts poking Palmar with a stick. I think scum would have more of an inclination to hide and appear diplomatic rather than antagonizing your accuser. When did this happen? | ||
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I want to add this thought about Tunkeg's martyr post. Remember that if we assume he is scum, he knows bugs and I are both town, so what are the implications if I fail to stop the wagon that at the time was on him and swing it over to Adam? If he's scum he leaves a lot of things to be considered if he flips, and "opinions" on two loud town players between Bugs and I. My initial thoughts were that if he is scum, he wouldn't dare leave such strong opinions on us, especially as I had already voiced my suspicions of Bugs, and scum calling him scum then flipping scum would probably make me rethink the issue. I still feel the most reasonable explanation is that Tunkeg isn't scum. | ||
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On December 13 2012 18:39 VisceraEyes wrote: Oh a missed hit like this would only put him back on the radar huh? Like, the way you and Hapa keep attesting that anyone doubting his claim is stupid, you mean like that kind of put on the radar? Palmar are you at least following what I'm saying? I'm not even reading your posts. | ||
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On December 13 2012 18:47 Djodref wrote: This is not true at all. Adam flipped scum and his list post was saying that WBG was scum. It didn't change your opinion at all. Adam and Tunkeg lists look almost the same, it's just lists fitting the general consensus. What's up with your double standards ? Adam's list just felt so manufactured that I ignored it. Also the timing was much worse than on Tunkeg's one. I'm not willing to go as far as calling Tunkeg a town read, but the most reasonable explanation to everything has happened is that he's not scum. But there are other things I need to look into. For example, do I think that two, or even three of the primary targets on day 1 (tunkeg, jay, adam) were scum? If so, what can I read into how and who pushed each wagon. | ||
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On December 13 2012 18:49 Tunkeg wrote: It has put him back on the radar. People are looking into him again. Clarity had so much towncred before this hit, that scum would probably put some other guy to claim if they wanted to claim. Also scum would never hit WBG in the shitty position he was in. I find it very likely he would have been lynched day 2 had he not been shot. I would definately have voted for him today. This I agree with, even while we most often convince ourselves that scum plays to try to confuse us, scum usually sticks to fairly logical things. I had a lot of influence in town, and a decent cred from almost everyone, so Bugs was in for some serious trouble today. It's simply unlikely scum shot him. Just for meta's sake, it's generally better to shoot inactive/non-talking scum and to lynch the loud ones. | ||
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On December 13 2012 19:31 Clarity_nl wrote: VE....... what? You make a giant case and then 3 posts later admit you didn't read my filter, but my vig claim is scummy somehow? I think it's likely that debears and marv were targets of scum kp and vigi, as picking debears as your only nk would be weird. No, debears started the accusations against Adam, so he was essentially confirmed town, it's not weird for scum to shoot into confirmed townies. | ||
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On December 13 2012 19:56 Clarity_nl wrote: I understand that, but leaving both you and marv alive if you're both town (which so far I think you are) would be.... not that smart. Why not? Clearly I was tunneling a townie anyway | ||
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Players I don't think we should consider lynching Palmar: because I'm towny as fuck Clarity: he was active, critical and clearly reading the thread on day 1. He shot bugs, which seems like an unlikely mafia shot. I think he gets a pass for a while Marv: second guy on the Adam wagon, even if I'd like him to actually do something more, I don't think we can afford to lynch him just yet. Not to mention Bugs also had a town read on him. thrawn: his day 1 actions just don't make sense if he's scum. I need to look better into what he did later. ------ This leaves Tunkeg, Z-Bos, Hap, Vivax, VE, Djdrof, BL, grush and Jay This is where it gets kinda shady, there's probably at least 2, if not 3 mafia in this group. Bugs was pretty adamant that Jay is town. As I explained in my day 1 reads, while I thought at the time he was more scummy than Tunk, I still didn't think Jay was actually scum, even if clarity's case had some points in it. Bugs called Jay "the easiest mislynch in history of TL Mafia". I think I'm willing to take Jay from the pool of potential candidates. That leaves 8. I'm not quite sure whom to eliminate next from the race. I'm thinking maybe one of Hapa, grush or Z-bos. But I cannot know which one, or if I even want to take one of them out. Please, comment on this approach and help me figure things out. | ||
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Grush did join the wagon correctly on adam, and call bugs's alignment correctly. Not sure what that makes him. | ||
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What do you make of Djdrof, I haven't read his latest contributions but before last the daypost I was ready to lynch him with almost the same force I wanted to lynch Bugs. | ||
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thrawn debears jay debears jay thrawn Bugs Bugs Bugs debears Bugs Munk-E marv Vivax Z-Boson Tunkeg thrawn thrawn Hapa (Munk-E) Palmar marv Z-Bos Jay Jay thrawn Palmar Hapa Clarity thrawn VE Palmar Jay Hapa Hapa Hapa VE VE VE BL | ||
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On December 13 2012 20:53 Clarity_nl wrote: WHY DO YOU SAY THIS RIGHT AFTER CALLING ME TOWN, BAFFLES MY MIND. You find it intiguing?!?! Can we just lynch this fucker. I'm talking to Djo | ||
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On December 13 2012 20:52 Vivax wrote: Before I go I have a question: What did Palmar say regarding Adam in his vid? Can't remember exactly, just didn't like his first post, didn't like how he discredited debears, didn't like how he promised to "keep his eyes on someone". | ||
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On December 13 2012 20:59 Djodref wrote: I was persuaded that jay and Tunkeg were mafia yesterday and far less sure about Adam. The lack of interactions with Adam could be explained because I was a bit wary of the debears/Adam interactions and didn't want to step in. After, I went sleeping and Adam went lurking. I didn't feel the need to interact with him yesterday, that would be my best explanation. List of Djodref not stepping in debears/Adam interactions: On December 10 2012 14:46 Djodref wrote: @ debears So, between Adam and Jay, which one of them should deserve your vote right now ? Because it looks like to me that the main reason for you to vote Adam is that he asked for your vote and voted against you. On December 10 2012 15:31 Djodref wrote: So, I guess you are satisfied with your vote on Adam right now. According to me, Adam has been pretty clear on his stance on thrawn and I disagree with you about him: I don't see anything to blame him for right now. I'll let you do what you feel like but I'll voice my concerns if you seem mistaken. For example, right now, I feel like you should better vote for jay instead of Adam. On December 10 2012 19:59 Djodref wrote: @ debears Could you explain me how Adam implied heavily that thrawn was scum ? Could you show me a post where you think his reaction was forced ? I don't think that posting only post from a previous post-game to show an apparent contradiction is really using meta. Adam just pointed out a contradiction. | ||
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Did you simply forget that you not only stepped in, you figuratively waded in yelling at debears repeatedly for his read on Adam? Or is there something more malicious to it? I sincerely wonder, because I'm not 100% sure you're scum, but it makes no sense for you to lie about what you did, from neither alignment, but it doesn't make you look good. | ||
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meh. | ||
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I'm just in no rush to wagon it up, we still got plenty of time. | ||
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I want to be able to pull off "Well if you wanted me to think you're town, maybe you shouldn't have tried to lynch townies to save scum". | ||
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On December 14 2012 00:06 Djodref wrote: I know, I was being sarcastic, I'm totally up for a BL lynch today. Do you have any ideas for a possible scumteam ? What about a VE lynch? | ||
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I should lynch you Djodref, no one else should even be considered for today's lynch. To your record you have not only attempted two counterwagons yesterday, desperately trying to stop me lynching scum, but then you literally lied about your reasons for not addressing the actual scum. In fact, you talked about him, defended him quite a bit, but never saw a reason to actually try to ask him about anything. And then you claim you simply forgot the whole ordeal, which not only is very fortunate for you (until I dug through your filter), but also points to you not being very heavily invested in your opinions. Most people don't forget their opinions that easily. I don't know you, maybe you're just bad, but how the hell do I tell the difference? | ||
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When in doubt policy lynch. I'm not sold on a tunkeg lynch. Hapa is defending all the wrong people and I didn't like Munk-E from day 1, but I don't think I can reasonably attack him for scum without more information and analysis. The Bluelightz thing is another instance of someone whose only possible defense is being too scummy to be scum. I'm not gonna defend him based on that, and I wish we could like quadruple lynch today. I'm also very wary of VisceraEyes. But, in the end, I'm kinda confused because so many people are playing like retards. Jay's Clarity&Palmar are scum theory is so out there that it's almost lynchworthy, but hey, apparently it's okay to be retarded and thus make the game 10x harder than it should be. And so, I'm voting Djodref. I am suggesting a lynch on Djodref for three reasons: 1. Attempting twice to go after another player over Adam The only defense for Djodref here is that he's too scummy to be scum. The theory is that no scum would so openly and ridiculously blatantly attempt to derail a scum lynch. It's a valid point, but maybe Djodref knows that? Here's his attempt to go after Tunkeg: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17206691 Here's his attempt to start a wagon on Jay: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17210095 I would like to additionally point out that both these attempts come after Djodref claims to be slightly leaning scum on Adam: On December 11 2012 13:01 Djodref wrote: I've watched Palmar's video and I've changed my mind a little bit about your interactions with Adam. As a result, I would lean town on you and slightly scum on Adam but I'm not yet sold on him being scum. The latest "scumslip" is not a scumslip in my opinion because it would have been one if he was totally sure that you were scum, which doesn't look to be the case. The fact that he dropped you is reasonable but it's not very indicative of his alignment because it was the best thing to do as scum and as town. I'm waiting to see where he is going to go with Vivax but I think that jay is more likely to be scum than him at this point. Generally people don't go so much out of their way to protect their scumreads? 2. Defending flipped scum repeatedly, yet never seeing any reason to interact with said scum Defending someone you think is town is fine. The problem is that generally you have a good reason for defending them. The fact that Djodref never tried to directly interact with someone who clearly was a pretty strong townread at the time looks kinda bad. I have a serious problem with this. Head to Djodref's filter, look at how much he talks ABOUT adam, but never TO adam. Coincidence? Maybe. But it's enough to raise alarms for me. Here's a link to his filter: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384953&user=284165¤tpage=All Here's a link to my post where I checked all the people he interacted with: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17224951 3. When I asked about this strange lack of interactions, Djodref directly lied to me. Lynch all liars is a good policy. I think we should enforce it. Djodref's lie can be seen in the following posts: On December 13 2012 20:52 Palmar wrote: I also find it intriguing you never once addressed Adam, yet you have 93 instances of his name in your filter (including inside quotes). You directly interacted with both Tunkeg and Jay. You also attempted to counter-wagon Adam's lynch using both of them as targets. On December 13 2012 20:59 Djodref wrote: I was persuaded that jay and Tunkeg were mafia yesterday and far less sure about Adam. The lack of interactions with Adam could be explained because I was a bit wary of the debears/Adam interactions and didn't want to step in. After, I went sleeping and Adam went lurking. I didn't feel the need to interact with him yesterday, that would be my best explanation. But this is clearly false. As Djodref was indeed more than comfortable with stepping in to defend adam, as can be seen on multiple occasions in his filter, and I showed an example of three such posts in this reply to his explanation: On December 13 2012 21:03 Palmar wrote: List of Djodref not stepping in debears/Adam interactions: To be fair, he did claim he forgot about those posts. I don't believe a word of it. Djodref, your time has come. You are a protector of filth, and a liar. The good people of Liquidia shall see you hang in the name of justice. ##Vote Djodref | ||
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On December 14 2012 22:26 marvellosity wrote: that's because Tunkeg is a better lynch But it's so dangerous, if he's a terrible lynch we have to lynch you tomorrow, which would suck | ||
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Do you want this guy alive and kicking down the line? It's strictly the wrong play not to lynch him. Even if he somehow flips town, it's wrong not lynch him. No one should ever not be lynched after getting caught lying trying to hide the fact he was trying to defend scum. It's the most obvious lie since I've seen in a mafia game for a long time. That being said, I guess it's time I look at other people. But really, give this a thought. Do you want to have to think about Djodref in lylo? | ||
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On December 14 2012 22:52 thrawn2112 wrote: palmr can you rank 1-3 how confident you were/are about each of your scum reads ( adam, wbg, djo) [b]2. Adam[b] Adam I was pretty sure was scum based on a number of things, vaguely outlined in my short "case" against him and things I said on the video. 1. Bugs I was almost 100% convinced Bugs is scum, which is the strongest reason I might consider Tunkeg scum. Bugs was pushing the Tunkeg lynch, and I just don't believe Bugs could be possibly so arrogant/bad as to try to kill my wagon on scum, when he had a somewhat tentative town read on both me and marv who were on Adam. The solution to this is that Tunkeg is also scum which seems strange to me, but it's certainly a possibility. The other solution to me at the time was that Tunkeg was someone scum tried to push against the Adam lynch, which is why I thought Bugs was scum. So the options were: Bugs is good, Bugs is scum, Tunkeg's town Bugs is good, Bugs is town, Tunkeg's scum Bugs is bad, Bugs is town, Tunkeg's town I initially assumed the first option is the correct one, but that one was clearly wrong. So now I need to decide whether it's 2 or 3. 3. Djodref Djodref is a different case. It's not wrong that he's been somewhat willing to confront people, although after a very quick skim of another game where he was scum, he seems capable of that as scum. But the big thing here is the three-pillar case that I wrote earlier. I'm not convinced he's scum, but I know, after playing probably close to 50 forum mafia games that it is strictly the wrong play to not lynch him. It sucks balls if he's somehow town and has managed to fuck up repeatedly. But I have been burned in the past when letting people go and assuming they're just retarded. He's even playing the bad townie defense himself. The aggressive part of me wants to lynch him just because no one should get away with shit like this. Fuck alignments, he should be lynched on policy alone. The more passive part of me still wants to lynch him, because I've more than once kicked myself after games for letting people go when trying to account for stupidity. My options here are Djodref did scummy things, thus he's town Djodref did scummy things, thus he's scum Why should I pick number 1? | ||
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On December 14 2012 23:58 marvellosity wrote: let's not lynch BL, i'm enjoying his feistiness Palmar, I spent quite some time in Djo's filter yesterday and I just didn't feel as strongly about it as you seem to, nor do I think it is the correct 'solution'. I need to recheck this 'lie' bit though. Don't put quotes on it as it's a fact. | ||
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On December 14 2012 23:52 Tunkeg wrote: This is just horseshit and a real bad arguement for lynching him. Do we really want grush around at lylo, Bluelightz, thrawn? It could be said for half the remaining players. But it doesn't make your case on Djordref better (or worse for that matter). Scummieness is all he should be lynched for, leave all the other bullshit elsewhere. This is actually incorrect. Ideally people who are disruptive but possibly not scum (which seems to be what everyone but me thinks of Djodref) Should be dealt with through vigi hits, while people who can be proven to be scum should be dealt with by lynches. Lurkers/Inactive people tend to be really hard to read, and thus they're disruptive, this is why Vigilantes should almost always aim at such people. Liars are another class of people who should be killed on policy, but that's where the similarities end. You are correct, I really don't want people who don't play around at lylo either. But the difference is that Djodref's past actions can never go away, while the people currently not working hard may still improve their effort later in the game. So I think it's even more important to kill him early. Sure, if we're 100% sure someone is mafia and have a solid case on him, it's better to lynch that person. But any town lynch is worse than Djodref lynch at the moment, as he has the most incriminating posting history, regardless of possible alignment. And remember, I'm explaining this from the point of view that you guys are taking, that Djodref is just a bad townie, not scum. From my point of view it makes sense to lynch him because he's scum. | ||
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On December 15 2012 00:17 marvellosity wrote: Right, found it, this. I don't understand at all a player from either alignment doing this. It's just horrible. Slightly different tack: Palmar, what makes you think Tunkeg ISN'T a good lynch? I don't quite know. Not yet at least. This is as good time as any to tell you that if it comes down to the two, I'm going to support a Bluelightz lynch over a Tunkeg lynch... I think. But honestly I need to re-read Tunkeg, maybe bugs was onto something. | ||
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On December 11 2012 23:51 Palmar wrote: He has a ton of pointless inquiries that never became anything more than just him asking a bunch of stupid questions anyone with half a brain could've answered themselves. But when I initially read the first post in this exchange I understood Bluelightz to be defending Adam based on him being accusative, but I missed this exchange: On December 11 2012 22:10 Bluelightz wrote: I'm defending dabears first accusation. Which leads me to believe he was defending dabears, and consequently makes him look a lot better. | ||
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On December 15 2012 00:28 Vivax wrote: Wtf is up with you marv, can you find me one thing that could even suggest that BL is town? Look what I found. Just bringing this in here! On December 11 2012 21:24 Vivax wrote: I've read Adams filter. So basically, the case on him seems to be built on "the change of tone in his post". That post with changed tone dabears mentioned was written one day after the last ones, so it's likely that he's writing like that cause he's not heated up like the day before. That day, he finished into an OMGUS fight with dabears, where they basically both vote for each other cause they argue about having to vote for the people you lean scum on. And this is where the matter stinks. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384953¤tpage=9#171 This is dabeers post about Adam. OH SHIT HE'S SUSPICIOUS CAUSE HE'S NOT VOTING FOR THRAWN. Look at the post, look at the voting thread, look at the reactions. Adam voted before debears upon being accused by him of not voting thrawn, meanwhile, dabears accused Adam of something he himself did. Only clarity so far has expressed criticism of this case against Adam, now I will, too. 1.The case is shit 2.The case is shit 3.The case is shit Being this a shit case accepted by many people, I think there's scum trying to sheep in it. | ||
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On December 15 2012 00:35 Vivax wrote: I'm leaving my vote carved on BL, even grush's being more productive than that guy. And both of them are more productive than you. | ||
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On December 15 2012 00:37 Vivax wrote: I'm saying the same thing others said aswell: That dabears case was bad, even if it hit. List those "others". If you can't, you're lying. | ||
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On December 15 2012 00:40 Vivax wrote: I'm not doing jackshit. If you don't have a townread on me, you clearly need to l2p. Hey do you remember that time back in day 1 where I said I wanted to lynch Adam, which prompted you (for god knows what reason) to ask me what was my strongest scumread out of those, to which I (obviously) replied Adam. Do you remember when you came back 20 minutes later and called the case shit repeatedly, somehow after an interaction with me deciding to ignore my case and just read dabears's one, then pound your chest and call people shit. I even asked you to read my case instead of dabears's one. You conveniently ignored me. You broke my heart that day | ||
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Tunkeg consequently looks worse too. I'm still working up the courage to read better what he has said. | ||
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He defended debears in the Adam/BL exchange. He made this post quite early: On December 11 2012 21:58 Bluelightz wrote: On Adam, This caught my eye in Adam's filter, someone says "Oh Adam might be scum" he went into insta defensive mode, then he didn't address the accusation but only followed up with a counter vote. Seems strange? The timing of his vote on Adam is very important here too: BL was the fourth person to cast a vote on Adam. At the time Tunkeg lead with 4 votes, and Adam/Jay were tied at 3. If BL is scum it must have been a designed bus from that point on. There was no need for BL to step on the Adam wagon if he was scum right there. In fact, I would argue his vote starts the swing to an Adam lynch. | ||
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On December 15 2012 01:00 VisceraEyes wrote: LAWL Oh man, selective humbleness. Palmar you're a treasure. Hi, you're such a scum aren't you? | ||
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Can't prove it/not sure. He has a few things that look kinda towny. But he's in the shit tier for now. | ||
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thrawn, clarity, bluelightz these probably/maybe townies marv, jay, grush these hmm pfff hmm (need to read more on them all) tunkeg, Z-bos, hapa these shit tier people VE, Vivax, Djodref | ||
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On December 15 2012 01:07 Clarity_nl wrote: I've addressed it in my case. That first post on Adam is like all his other commentary at the start of the game. "Oh, this is weird", "oh, that is strange!" Then when he has to leave and won't be back before lynch he parks his vote on Adam (which is the best decision scumwise. You won't be around to defend him so this is either a bus or a clever vote depending on if Adam gets lynched) He votes for Adam and then he throws in "Palmar's case and my own reasons". I had to ask him for his reasons and he quoted his own post, the very post that you just showed me. Give me a break. I'm not going with a bluelightz case now. My recent re-read has completely changed my read on him. | ||
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On December 15 2012 01:11 Clarity_nl wrote: Why is grush probably town and why is hapa null? I don't agree with BL town but I'll consolidate for now and revisit it tomorrow. ##Unvote Hapa is null because of Munk-E's play on day 1, he kinda looks towny now on day 2. I also need to read him better. Grush's filter was a quick read but he doesn't look like scum at the moment. | ||
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On December 15 2012 01:15 Vivax wrote: I'd expect you to be a bit more enthusiastic considering I've been pushing exactly these two all the time. We've already established your opinion isn't worth much. | ||
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On December 15 2012 01:16 marvellosity wrote: Why don't you just read what I wrote? :/ Counterquestion for you: Is Vivax only in your shit-list because of how he attacked the Adam case? Is Tunkeg not in your shit-list because he didn't? Vivax probably yeah, I just don't like people calling me shit when I'm right. Tunkeg no. There's a couple of things that caught my eye. In fact, you voted Tunkeg on day 1, and bugs/djodref used a part of that post as a case against tunkeg after this post: On December 11 2012 04:23 Tunkeg wrote: So I have skimmed through the thread. And these are my thoughts: Thrawn's "claim" is a joke claim. He did it in the very beginning, and quickly and without concern went back on it. I didn't like his response when called out on it. But when he in the end explained why he did as he did, it was an ok (no more, no less) explanation. I truly think people read to much into stuff like this, and overfocuses on it. I have many times made posts early that people have labeled stupid, with them voting for me and almost misslynching me (mainly because they didn't get my logic behind doing them, even after I explained it). I don't think the millar "claim" is anything worth spending much time analysing, but I would say that I find it more likely that a townie would do this. I like Clarity's post on jaybrundage. I think jaybrundage's posts are very non-commiting, and very fluffy. I have played games with jaybrundage before, and I may be wrong, but I think his style resembles what he did in Student, where he was scum. A very wishy-washy style, where he eventually did some major slips. I am also abit concerned about Djodref, I think he is posting alot, but his posts are very fluffy. I haven't played with him before, is this his style or? However I found myself on the other side after reading that post. I'm a big fan of his approach to the thrawn claim and how he doesn't consider it worth much analysis. At the time I also like clarity's case. I also liked this response: On December 11 2012 07:41 Tunkeg wrote: How about you let me scumhunt the way I want to? There is plenty of spammers in this game, who have posted alot of nonsense. I will post when I feel I have something to post, I will not be sitting here nitpicking and twisting the words of every other post. Because at the time he considered Clarity town, which he later confirmed in his big "pseudo-martyr" post. These posts I'm not sure about, but I don't think they're scummy at all, it's basically a list of his "defense" http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17204420 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17204519 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17204595 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17204625 I don't think Bugs's point that Tunkeg is treating him like town is valid. I also kinda liked his martyr post. I'm not ready to say he's conclusively town, and so many people calling him scum gives me certain pause, but those a are a few examples of the things that make me thing he's probably not scum. | ||
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herp derp herp derp, not sure what do. | ||
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On December 15 2012 01:31 marvellosity wrote: Your first quote about the thrawn thing: especially at that stage of the thread it was really easy to 'look good' with the approach to thrawn. I'd already basically dismissed the thrawn issue and if my memory serves, so had you. What you point out just seems so... default. The second quote is just him being pissy. Taking on Clarity at that point would have been completely anti-productive from either a town or a scum perspective. Why are you seeing town in these?? I don't know, they just don't fit how I'd expect scum to play. I'm also guilty of trying to understand what happened there on day 1. What the hell was the scum team doing? Did they try to counterwagon? if so tunkeg's hardly scum. Did they autobus adam? Why did they let adam get killed over tunkeg then? both were scum anyway. | ||
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On December 15 2012 01:33 Vivax wrote: I'll lynch VE, BL or jay. Btw Palmar, I secretly love you. Why not Tunk or Djodref? | ||
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On December 15 2012 01:37 marvellosity wrote: You're not the only one who thought about it. I didn't come to satisfactory conclusions on that exact same question. I speculated that jaybrundage was supposed to be the scum wagon (on a townie) that day but due to inactivity, or inability to push it properly, it fizzled out and ended up on Adam and Tunkeg. Then if Tunkeg is scum, it's obviously best play for him to crucify Adam in his martyr post. This is a good point and once again I visited the filter. It's interesting that Tunkeg didn't even mention Adam until the martyr post. | ||
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you know what. I might just run with this. I won't be around to herd the sheep anyway for tonight. ##Vote Tunkeg This is your push now marv. Don't let BL a stupid wagon take off. Let's see what Tunkeg has to hide. The correct play is still to lynch Djodref. but whatever. | ||
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On December 15 2012 01:45 marvellosity wrote: This is actually quite irritating because I tihnk we both have good reasons to be pushing our respective targets (djo/tunkeg) but one of us feels more strongly on the other and I don't know how we reconcile it. Yeah, I can't be here to push my target, so with this latest information I hadn't noticed about Tunkeg's interactions with Adam, I'm sorta okay with heading for your wagon, it also helps I know bugs genuinely thought Tunkeg was scum. So let's do it, I'll wait my turn for when I can be here. | ||
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probability of him flipping scum: relatively small. whatever, I still can't push the djodref thing tonight. | ||
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On December 15 2012 07:51 marvellosity wrote: what were you expecting when we both agreed on a lynch? You think Tunkeg's responses today have been townie? Am I trying to stop the lynch? He's being an asshole and not worth saving. That doesn't mean I'm convinced he's scum. But to be fair, he very well could be, especially in light of my realization he judged Adam with no interaction or previous mention of Adam at all, which looks very bad. | ||
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I don't really expect to live till tomorrow please please listen to me the next time. This is very annoying. | ||
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On December 16 2012 05:44 Z-BosoN wrote: Palmar, any thoughts on my reads? you somehow have leaning scum on me so you're clearly an idiot and thus not worth reading. | ||
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Marv really wanted this Tunkeg lynch, which was quite bad yet he pushed it hard. Don't do anything about it yet but do NOT listen to any of his reads over what I have already stated should I die tonight. He is quite possibly scum, but there's not nearly enough evidence for it yet. If marv tries to push alternative lynches to what I have said, he might be scum. Vivix is extremely disruptive to the thread, he's annoying, loud and wrong a lot. he's basically blatantly pushing mafia agenda. I don't know him, so maybe he's just an overconfident asshole, but you should know that whatever he's doing right now seems to favor the mafia pretty heavily. Bluelightz seems pretty townie to may. Do not let him get lynched tomorrow, there is absolutely no reason he should be. I was right on the Tunkeg lynch, and this is another case of me just not seeing the scum everyone is yelling about in him. Z-boson's latest post looked fairly townie to me. Even if I haven't spent much time on him this game I would probably not consider lynching him any time soon. As I've stated multiple times, Clarity is almost certainly town. There is no reason to even consider lynching him in the near future. Grush is kinda on the edge, but given that you guys must flip djodref, maybe you can get a read on him from that. I'll post about the rest of the players later. | ||
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Djodref is almost certainly scum, the resistance to his wagon on day 2 was just ridiculous for someone who got caught lying like a retard. I have zero understanding of why anyone who is town would even consider not lynching him. It's strictly the wrong play not to kill him. He must be killed or this game is lost. Jaybrundage has very little to defend him, but there's just so many people that need much more attention than him in this game. He could very well be scum, but after killing VE and Djodref you guys should have a clearer picture to look at. don't let scum push this false wagon. | ||
Palmar
Iceland22612 Posts
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Palmar
Iceland22612 Posts
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Palmar
Iceland22612 Posts
It's not impossible that mafia saw the advantage of taking a shot at bugs who I was pushing very heavily to confirm one of their own as town, but it's too difficult to chase this storyline until we clear out the people who should obviously be killed. (djodref/VE for now). | ||
Palmar
Iceland22612 Posts
It's what I get for lacking confidence in my reads since I haven't been active for a long time. Town really should have lynched marv on day 4. Marv is a top player and those should be aggressively interrogated and lynched beyond days 1-2. You guys are way too afraid of pushing big names. We're big boys, we can take care of ourselves. I really want to know where this town thing of just randomly defending people for no reason at all (djodref, vivax both defended adam on day 1) comes from. If the target is town, wouldn't they usually be capable of defending themselves? There is obviously nothing wrong with defending townies if you're certain in your reads, but damn, you really have to be. I didn't play well myself this game, I got caught up in playing as I wanted the game to be, instead of how it is. I gotta say though, mostly I'm fairly impressed by the amount of work people are putting in these days. Almost everyone is participating in the games and being useful. | ||
Palmar
Iceland22612 Posts
On December 25 2012 08:53 Clarity_nl wrote: I sheeped your bugs read and that didn't work out too well :p It's probably why you didn't get sheeped when you said tunkeg was town. I would have jumped at the chance to lynch jay if I were still alive, even now in post game I find it hard to see what made him town, other than the fact that he didn't really push a scum agenda (other than the thrawn obsession stuff) I don't know, I never thought jay was scum once I realized Adam was. Not sure what it was, the guy just didn't look like someone who is scum. And honestly, I meant to push bugs the day after, but I want to go through the whole process of interrogating players. Try to vigi shitty lurkers and other trash, don't vig into active people. | ||
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