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Hero Mini Mafia - Page 12

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Hapahauli
Profile Joined May 2009
United States9305 Posts
December 19 2012 21:58 GMT
#2676
I voted Jay btw. Can you fix the votecount?

On December 19 2012 10:46 Hapahauli wrote:
##Vote Jay

Oooh quite a good night post.

Anywho, kill Jay, and I'll work on convincing you folks to kill BL tomorrow. Feel free to ask any questions though.
a talking rock that sprouts among the waves woosh
Hapahauli
Profile Joined May 2009
United States9305 Posts
December 20 2012 00:11 GMT
#2678
Right.
a talking rock that sprouts among the waves woosh
Hapahauli
Profile Joined May 2009
United States9305 Posts
December 20 2012 00:32 GMT
#2681
Hehe yeah maybe. Dat kita shot man.

No I'll be checking the thread every so often - it's a take-home final that's due at 10am tomorrow morning, but I'll probably finish it in a few hours.

Would you support the idea of a video, or would that be too unsportsmanlike? Being mislynched as town is just about the last thing I want to have happen to me.
a talking rock that sprouts among the waves woosh
Hapahauli
Profile Joined May 2009
United States9305 Posts
December 20 2012 00:34 GMT
#2683
Fair enough. I'll just type some stuff up tomorrow then.

OK DAMNIT FOCUS TIME. See you in a couple of hours
a talking rock that sprouts among the waves woosh
Hapahauli
Profile Joined May 2009
United States9305 Posts
December 20 2012 08:51 GMT
#2731
Some thoughts before I go to bed:



There are three possible explanations for the mafia KP:
1) Mafia are inactive/demotivated and forgot to submit KP.
2) Mafia decided to withhold KP
3) Mafia are making some WIFOM play



Option 2:
I don't consider option two very likely. Withholding KP only makes sense as a play if someone is worried about explaining why they are alive so late in the game. The only person that makes sense for is marv, who made a similar play in Normal Mini Mafia III as scum.

However, it's very doubtful that marv is scum at this stage. Firstly, his meta strongly suggests that he's town. While there's a temptation to think that scum marv is super active all the time, that's just not true. Scum marv can be very active in the early game to build town credit. After that, he seems just as content to coast on his town cred. This is the complete opposite from this game, where he's still active and still very clearly trying to figure things out.

In addition, a hypothetical scum-marv could simply kill a player like thrawn (whom everyone has had a town read on since D1) and come out looking fine. There's very little chance that marv is scum, or that any other player would have made this play.



Option 3:
The only person that a WIFOM play makes sense for is a veteran player who is in danger of getting lynched trying to confuse the town. Rather, it only makes sense for me if I was scum. While it will ring hollow for me to say that "I wouldn't do such a thing," consider what possible scum motives I could have for such a play. There's zero strategical incentive here for me not to kill someone. In fact, if I were scum, I'd increase my chances of survival by killing a player like Djo, thrawn, or Vivax, who have been death-tunneling me for a few days now.

But if you still think I'm WIFOM bombing or something, I refer you to Occam's Razor. What requires more insane assumptions... me pulling this play, or the scumteam simply being too inactive to submit a kill?



Option 1:
This is the only reasonable explanation for the lack of NK in my mind, and it pretty strongly points to a lurker scumteam.

Jay:
I'd rather not belabor the point - pretty much everyone in the thread has outlined the reason's he's scum at this point.

Bluelightz:
Bluelightz is the only reasonable lurker that could be scum. His filter is also not very pretty. I'll do something in more detail tomorrow, but I'm very surprised why people are buying into his "demotivated" act.

In Rockband Mini, I tunneled the hell out of him (along with several other players). Despite being tunneled under similar circumstances to this game, never once did he get demotivated - he was very proactive and resilient in his defense. Just read his filter... it's night and day from his play this game:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=369250&user=235418

Furthermore, he's not getting tunneled at all right now. While I'd understand (and sympathise) with his demotivation earlier, there's just no reason for him to be so lazy in the current situation. He's not under major pressure or anything. In fact many players are trying to encourage him to post. Instead of being constructive, he offers random comments and leaves for hours on end.

Z-Boson
I think there's an outside chance that Z-Boson could be scum, however given how hard that both Jay and VE pushed him on Day 2, I highly doubt he's mafia. Admittedly I have not read through his filter recently. I'll verify this tomorrow.

Grush:
My favorite post on GRush is this post by austinmcc in PTP3:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=359357&currentpage=85#1693

I think it outlines the differences between scum and town GRush pretty well. In GRush's scumgames, there are certain posts in his filter for which the only objective is to be antagonistic or trolly. In this game, GRush is remarkably constructive. Even if sheepy, his posts are playful and straightforward. There's no trolling, no antagonism, and no traces of scum GRush this game.
a talking rock that sprouts among the waves woosh
Hapahauli
Profile Joined May 2009
United States9305 Posts
December 20 2012 09:09 GMT
#2732
@ Thrawn

Do I get a survey? =O
a talking rock that sprouts among the waves woosh
Hapahauli
Profile Joined May 2009
United States9305 Posts
December 20 2012 09:16 GMT
#2734
On December 20 2012 18:16 thrawn2112 wrote:
idk, i'm all out of silly questions.

imo the night kill stuff is still.... not really worth thinking about yet. your post doesn't include the possibility that mafia just withheld kp intentionally because they'll just get 2 kp next time.


The problem is that there's zero incentive for mafia not to kill someone today. Veteran's dead... JK's dead... why on earth wouldn't mafia take the opportunity to shoot someone like marv?
a talking rock that sprouts among the waves woosh
Hapahauli
Profile Joined May 2009
United States9305 Posts
December 20 2012 09:17 GMT
#2735
I mean I guess another possibility is that there are two veterans, but no one's claimed yet.
a talking rock that sprouts among the waves woosh
Hapahauli
Profile Joined May 2009
United States9305 Posts
December 20 2012 09:20 GMT
#2736
On December 20 2012 13:39 thrawn2112 wrote:
Go read the conversation between marv and blue that happened a few pages back and tell me if you still think he's scum. true he's not really doing anything but he's contributed more than jay. the last two days jay has clocked out as soon as he's pressed to talk about his scumreads...why? he doesn't have any. he didn't even respond to my question a short while ago.



At one point I had a town read on Bluelightz because his "demotivated" conversation a couple of days ago seemed pretty genuine at first glance. However that stuff is really really easy to fake. In addition, that isn't an excuse for a player who's perfectly capable of posting analysis to... never post analysis.

Living in a perpetually demotivated state is really easy to fake. It's not a town tell. Also, demotivation is something that ebbs and flows with successes and failures of the town. Why isn't bluelightz optimistic now that VE is dead?
a talking rock that sprouts among the waves woosh
Hapahauli
Profile Joined May 2009
United States9305 Posts
December 20 2012 09:23 GMT
#2738
On December 20 2012 18:21 thrawn2112 wrote:
well, i'm pretty certain about jay being scum. his lynch has been the talk of the thread almost since right before ve got lynched. so it's not like scum would be able to prevent a jay lynch by withholding kp.

for example, they could just withhold kp last night, knowing jay will get lynched but hoping to wifom the thread into a mislynch later on... as I suspect you are doing.


I realize you have respect for my scumplay, but show me one of my games where I attempt something even resembling a WIFOM play. Hell there's no incentive for a WIFOM play. If I was scum, it would be 10000000x more beneficial to shoot marv, or even you, rather than risk all this shit.
a talking rock that sprouts among the waves woosh
Hapahauli
Profile Joined May 2009
United States9305 Posts
December 20 2012 09:30 GMT
#2740
Honestly, it's somewhat insulting that you think I'm capable of doing something that stupid.
a talking rock that sprouts among the waves woosh
Hapahauli
Profile Joined May 2009
United States9305 Posts
December 20 2012 09:31 GMT
#2741
Oh sniped.
a talking rock that sprouts among the waves woosh
Hapahauli
Profile Joined May 2009
United States9305 Posts
December 20 2012 09:32 GMT
#2742
Anyway, the BL case isn't based on NK wifom. You can ignore the stuff above if you don't want to think about it. Just read the part below then:

Bluelightz:
Bluelightz is the only reasonable lurker that could be scum. His filter is also not very pretty. I'll do something in more detail tomorrow, but I'm very surprised why people are buying into his "demotivated" act.

In Rockband Mini, I tunneled the hell out of him (along with several other players). Despite being tunneled under similar circumstances to this game, never once did he get demotivated - he was very proactive and resilient in his defense. Just read his filter... it's night and day from his play this game:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=369250&user=235418

Furthermore, he's not getting tunneled at all right now. While I'd understand (and sympathise) with his demotivation earlier, there's just no reason for him to be so lazy in the current situation. He's not under major pressure or anything. In fact many players are trying to encourage him to post. Instead of being constructive, he offers random comments and leaves for hours on end.


Agree? Disagree?
a talking rock that sprouts among the waves woosh
Hapahauli
Profile Joined May 2009
United States9305 Posts
December 20 2012 09:34 GMT
#2743
I'll have more time to type something more complete tomorrow, but there's not much to say about BL's filter other than what I said above. He's a lazy scum who's been coasting along in the game with excuses of 'demotivation." It's easy to fake, it's anti-town, and he's the only player I can see in this game who would flip scum given the circumstances.
a talking rock that sprouts among the waves woosh
Hapahauli
Profile Joined May 2009
United States9305 Posts
December 20 2012 09:43 GMT
#2745
Well I'm trying to convince you that I wouldn't pass up what is by far the strategically optimal play for some random chance at a mindfuck.
a talking rock that sprouts among the waves woosh
Hapahauli
Profile Joined May 2009
United States9305 Posts
December 20 2012 09:43 GMT
#2746
Anywho, almost 5 am, and that's all I got in me. See y'all tomorrow.
a talking rock that sprouts among the waves woosh
Hapahauli
Profile Joined May 2009
United States9305 Posts
December 20 2012 19:31 GMT
#2785
Eh. You mind if I just play the demotivated card and not post? Seems like defending myself is literally a waste of time at this point.

On December 20 2012 19:05 thrawn2112 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 20 2012 18:23 Hapahauli wrote:
On December 20 2012 18:21 thrawn2112 wrote:
well, i'm pretty certain about jay being scum. his lynch has been the talk of the thread almost since right before ve got lynched. so it's not like scum would be able to prevent a jay lynch by withholding kp.

for example, they could just withhold kp last night, knowing jay will get lynched but hoping to wifom the thread into a mislynch later on... as I suspect you are doing.


I realize you have respect for my scumplay, but show me one of my games where I attempt something even resembling a WIFOM play. Hell there's no incentive for a WIFOM play. If I was scum, it would be 10000000x more beneficial to shoot marv, or even you, rather than risk all this shit.



Show nested quote +
On December 20 2012 18:30 Hapahauli wrote:
Honestly, it's somewhat insulting that you think I'm capable of doing something that stupid.


hmm?



Seeing stuff like the above should alert you to how much confirmation bias is involved in all of this.
a talking rock that sprouts among the waves woosh
Hapahauli
Profile Joined May 2009
United States9305 Posts
December 20 2012 19:36 GMT
#2786
[b]@ Marv[b]
The problem I have are the incessant contradictions, and his attitude at the time of the VE claim really smacks of scum trying to find a way to not lynch VE right then.


Contradictions? The ones you've pointed out seem pretty far from alignment indicative. I contradict myself in stupid ways as town all the time (remember your "Hapa the Hypocrite case). If there's a contradiction in my suspicion or core gameplay, I'll certainly address that, but what you're pointing out seems pretty meaningless.
a talking rock that sprouts among the waves woosh
Hapahauli
Profile Joined May 2009
United States9305 Posts
December 20 2012 19:38 GMT
#2788
Also related to the quote above, what about attitude towards VE is bad play from a town perspective? Lynching the unclaimed cop is a pretty risky proposition. Not considering your options is simply bad play. You're also forgetting that I ultimately didn't move my vote - where is the "finding a way to not lynch VE" then?
a talking rock that sprouts among the waves woosh
Hapahauli
Profile Joined May 2009
United States9305 Posts
December 20 2012 19:39 GMT
#2789
On December 20 2012 22:33 Djodref wrote:
+ Show Spoiler [Speculation on the mafia KP] +
On December 20 2012 17:51 Hapahauli wrote:
Some thoughts before I go to bed:



There are three possible explanations for the mafia KP:
1) Mafia are inactive/demotivated and forgot to submit KP.
2) Mafia decided to withhold KP
3) Mafia are making some WIFOM play



Option 2:
I don't consider option two very likely. Withholding KP only makes sense as a play if someone is worried about explaining why they are alive so late in the game. The only person that makes sense for is marv, who made a similar play in Normal Mini Mafia III as scum.

However, it's very doubtful that marv is scum at this stage. Firstly, his meta strongly suggests that he's town. While there's a temptation to think that scum marv is super active all the time, that's just not true. Scum marv can be very active in the early game to build town credit. After that, he seems just as content to coast on his town cred. This is the complete opposite from this game, where he's still active and still very clearly trying to figure things out.

In addition, a hypothetical scum-marv could simply kill a player like thrawn (whom everyone has had a town read on since D1) and come out looking fine. There's very little chance that marv is scum, or that any other player would have made this play.



Option 3:
The only person that a WIFOM play makes sense for is a veteran player who is in danger of getting lynched trying to confuse the town. Rather, it only makes sense for me if I was scum. While it will ring hollow for me to say that "I wouldn't do such a thing," consider what possible scum motives I could have for such a play. There's zero strategical incentive here for me not to kill someone. In fact, if I were scum, I'd increase my chances of survival by killing a player like Djo, thrawn, or Vivax, who have been death-tunneling me for a few days now.

But if you still think I'm WIFOM bombing or something, I refer you to Occam's Razor. What requires more insane assumptions... me pulling this play, or the scumteam simply being too inactive to submit a kill?



Option 1:
This is the only reasonable explanation for the lack of NK in my mind, and it pretty strongly points to a lurker scumteam.

Jay:
I'd rather not belabor the point - pretty much everyone in the thread has outlined the reason's he's scum at this point.

Bluelightz:
Bluelightz is the only reasonable lurker that could be scum. His filter is also not very pretty. I'll do something in more detail tomorrow, but I'm very surprised why people are buying into his "demotivated" act.

In Rockband Mini, I tunneled the hell out of him (along with several other players). Despite being tunneled under similar circumstances to this game, never once did he get demotivated - he was very proactive and resilient in his defense. Just read his filter... it's night and day from his play this game:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=369250&user=235418

Furthermore, he's not getting tunneled at all right now. While I'd understand (and sympathise) with his demotivation earlier, there's just no reason for him to be so lazy in the current situation. He's not under major pressure or anything. In fact many players are trying to encourage him to post. Instead of being constructive, he offers random comments and leaves for hours on end.

Z-Boson
I think there's an outside chance that Z-Boson could be scum, however given how hard that both Jay and VE pushed him on Day 2, I highly doubt he's mafia. Admittedly I have not read through his filter recently. I'll verify this tomorrow.

Grush:
My favorite post on GRush is this post by austinmcc in PTP3:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=359357&currentpage=85#1693

I think it outlines the differences between scum and town GRush pretty well. In GRush's scumgames, there are certain posts in his filter for which the only objective is to be antagonistic or trolly. In this game, GRush is remarkably constructive. Even if sheepy, his posts are playful and straightforward. There's no trolling, no antagonism, and no traces of scum GRush this game.


Why did you use mafia KP speculation as an argument to exonerate yourself and incriminate BL ?
I didn't anyone but you giving this importance to the fact that there was no KP.

This kind of thing generally indicates a mafia mindset, don't you agree ?


Talking about KP = me being scum. Sigh.

Do you agree with it or not? I thought I laid it out really clear why I'm thinking what I am.
a talking rock that sprouts among the waves woosh
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