Newbie Mini Mafia XXVIII

On September 24 2012 02:51 Z-BosoN wrote:
I don't think caller game should count
if you agree
/in

On September 26 2012 11:13 kushm4sta wrote:
im going to lurk more this game

On September 26 2012 11:36 kushm4sta wrote:


last game my reads were so good though.

On September 26 2012 20:24 Alsn wrote:
That would be all well and good if I could actually find it!

Got a link? :p

On September 26 2012 21:16 marvellosity wrote:
/coach town

hapa, go coach scum bro

edit: actually, I wouldn't mind coaching scum. Your call

On September 26 2012 23:53 Sonic Death Monkey wrote:


Not updated.

On September 28 2012 06:58 kushm4sta wrote:
@sonic
getting everyone's thoughts on lurker policy is important. Don't argue about it but share your views on the matter please..

On September 28 2012 08:51 Djodref wrote:
@Darthpunk

Nevermind you look just more confident to get a scum on D1 than me.


Regarding my plan, I think we need general directions to follow because of the majority lynch.
It is a way to gather everybody around 2-3 suspicious players and secure a lynch. I'm assuming everyone agree on a no-lynch to be stupid.

On September 28 2012 09:03 kushm4sta wrote:
@Darth what are your thoughts on lurker policy? What is your opinion of policy lynches? What is your policy about policies?

On September 28 2012 09:10 Z-BosoN wrote:


After LVII I'm rather liking the idea of policy lynches, in extreme cases.

Killing lurkers in a lurker-infested town, for example, is something I'm inclined to agree on. If the town proves itself active, then whoever proves himself scummier will occupy the noose.

Given that this is a newbie game, scums are generally more scared to post. While that is a general tendency, I don't agree with mass posters being cleared right off the bat, even if their posts seem meaningful.

What I suggest in this game, is that people read. From my few games, much time is usually wasted discussing things that have not been read properly.



This is a rather useless post. Newbie towns want to scumhunt. Newbie scum want to look like they are scumhunting. That =/= posting a lot but not for the sake of posting, or whatever you meant.

And please tell me, what do you mean? You say you hope to have moved past the lurker discussion, and yet you are telling people to post a lot? In my eyes you are telling people not to lurk because that will make them seem scummy. It seems to me that you are indirectly stating your views on lurkers despite openly saying you don't want to talk about them.

On September 28 2012 09:14 kushm4sta wrote:

I just dont like it when people threaten me.. so hard to suppress my urge to flame.

On September 28 2012 09:18 kushm4sta wrote:


You have no sense of humor darth. This is the second time I made a joke to you and the second time you took it literally.

I do agree with you that it's stupid to have a "plan" for day 2. Everyone vote for their top scumreads and that's all the plan we need.

On September 28 2012 09:31 kushm4sta wrote:
The one where I call you an asshole was serious. That is the post boson quoted.
The one saying the word policy a bunch of times was not serious. That is the one you took seriously.

The first time you took a joke seriously was pregame chatter.

you are very cold dude and I don't like it.

I would like to move on but if you prefer I continue to expand on your faults I would be happy to.

On September 28 2012 09:18 kushm4sta wrote:


You have no sense of humor darth. This is the second time I made a joke to you and the second time you took it literally.

I do agree with you that it's stupid to have a "plan" for day 2. Everyone vote for their top scumreads and that's all the plan we need.

On September 28 2012 09:31 kushm4sta wrote:
The one where I call you an asshole was serious. That is the post boson quoted.
The one saying the word policy a bunch of times was not serious. That is the one you took seriously.

The first time you took a joke seriously was pregame chatter.

you are very cold dude and I don't like it.

I would like to move on but if you prefer I continue to expand on your faults I would be happy to.

On September 28 2012 09:40 kushm4sta wrote:
thank you now I won't be nk

On September 28 2012 09:48 kushm4sta wrote:
anyway to defend myself:

before this game even started you said you were going lynch me if i play the same way ive been playing.
well guess what that's my personality and it's not changing so if you don't like it too bad?

you said "if you talk policy again im fosing you."
I make a post. 1 sentence of flame. For that I am sorry (not really). Second sentence was a brief explanation of why I think 1 post on policy discussion is a good idea.

"if you talk policy again im fosing you."
The second post I make in response to that is basically saying policy policy policy policy. And you don't get that it's a joke?

On September 28 2012 09:55 kushm4sta wrote:
Sorry but it's something in me I can't help myself but antagonize people like you.

And my nk comment is it not true?

On September 28 2012 09:58 kushm4sta wrote:


Why was that scummy? You say something that you know, since you've been watching me like a creeper, would piss me off, then you vote for me for responding to it.

So why was my policy talk scummy? You didn't even mention that in your vote post.

On September 28 2012 06:11 kushm4sta wrote:

I have been told many times I have a "scummy meta." Not really fair since last game I did roll scum so I didn't really get a chance to show improvement in my town play. I'm working on it guys.

On September 28 2012 06:11 kushm4sta wrote:
This is my 4th newbie game so I'm experienced as possible to play in this game. Also I think rolling scum last game will help my reads greatly. I know how those fuckers think.

On September 28 2012 06:11 kushm4sta wrote:
Everyone say how you feel about lurker policy.
I take kind of a middle of the ground stance. I mean if you have like 3 lurkers obviously you shouldn't waste 3 nights killing them off 1 by 1. If I think someone is scummy than I vote for that person. If I don't have any good scumreads then I will be in favor of lynching a lurker.
Usually what seems to happen is town can't decide so they bandwagon on some lurker at the last second. I'm not against this since it keeps pressure on possible scum.
I don't like people to say oh we are definitely lynching a lurker d1, because then scum feels safe as long as they are somewhat active.
My willingness to lynch a lurker decreases as the game progresses. For example I think lynching a lurker d3 is really bad.

On September 28 2012 06:11 kushm4sta wrote:
Message to scum:
I can smell you.

On September 28 2012 10:02 kushm4sta wrote:


that was 100% flame. now you are just insulting my play

On September 28 2012 10:37 kushm4sta wrote:


Thank you. now why you didn't do that at first I don't know. Instead you engaged in this flame war with me for really no reason.

About my first post, yeah it was meant as mostly irrelevant. Just an introduction so people could get to know me.
I prob should not bring this up but let me just say I have an unkilled undefeated streak atm. 3 games played and I have yet to die and yet to lose. Therefore, for perhaps selfish reasons, I have a strong will to self survival.

On September 28 2012 10:37 kushm4sta wrote:
I want people to know that I have a scummy meta so they don't lynch me for it.
Apparently you were ready to lynch me in all 3 games even though I was town in 2 of them. I want to avoid that.

On September 28 2012 10:37 kushm4sta wrote:


So that wasn't an insult or a flame? You are saying I've never been nk because scum doesn't see me as a threat because I am bad. That's the real talk translation.

On September 28 2012 11:22 kushm4sta wrote:

Because the most active townie is tunneling me? Obviously I'm not going to be nk.

On September 28 2012 11:34 debears wrote:
@Darthpunk

Do you have links to all your previous games?

I see validity in your points. However, I need to see how you've played before. You are coming off really strong really early.

and @Kush

Tunneling does not mean only looking at the people under pressure. It means that we should only post cases with substance at that point. Someone going off tangent on some stupid duck hunt with no reason and distracting the attention of the town is bad at that point. If you do feel suspicious of someone but don't have a good case, just keep it on word and save it for when evidence does come out.

On September 28 2012 11:39 debears wrote:
As I said, I want a quick look at you first. Second, there isn't much more to add to what you said about it. It does give off the impression of extra information.

On September 28 2012 12:54 Djodref wrote:


@DarthPunk
Could you detail the reason you think Kush has never been NKed in the games he rolled town ?

I found the quoted part a little illogical.

On September 28 2012 13:27 Djodref wrote:
It's a little illogical because you are saying that he looks scummy as town or as scum and yet you are able to make the difference between and scummy town Kush and a scummy scum Kush.
I also read through the last Newbie Mini Mafia games and I must agree he didn't mention night kills so much when he was town iirc.
I'm looking forward his explanations about his town read on you and I hope more people can give their opinion about your case on Kush.
As I was also reading the game where you were mafia roleblocker and I saw your ability to flame with Shiaopi, I'm not buying it yet.

On September 28 2012 13:24 debears wrote:
@darthpunk

You could also say that you are too convinced in your reasons. What I am cautious of at this point is that you stated directly before the game that you were after kush if he plays like he has in his past 3 games. I feel like that may be clouding your judgement in this situation.

Our main goal is to lynch mafia. Yes, kush has said some scummy things. However, I'm not gonna go around parading this early saying "kush is scum. Kush is scum. OMFG".

Also, let the man defend himself instead of trying to rally everyone active behind your cause so early. If he is scummy, the votes will come.

On September 28 2012 14:26 Z-BosoN wrote:
@debear

Have you ever heard about instigating discussion? You know, getting people to talk?
I don't like how you defended SDM. You stated your views on lurkers, so that means you must agree that this type of discussion has some validity:



Yet, you don't address SDM's blatant "I don't give a crap about policy lynch discussion's" stance? Seems rather odd to me.
##FoS debears

On September 28 2012 14:43 debears wrote:
@darth

When did I say stop going after him? I said wait for him to respond.

You can be convinced he's scum, but you're making a huge deal out of it early in the game. multiple red texts with the word scum. Got your point.

I'm not defending him as much as I'm trying to tell you that you are going overboard right now. You don't have to rush in annointing him scum.

@z-boson

If you haven't realized yet, I played with SDM last game. I know where he stands with lurker policy. If you haven't noticed, darth doesn't like them either. Why? Cuz they usually go nowhere fast.

Why are you so focused on lurker discussion when there are other things going on?

Nice FOS btw. I make a case on you and you fail to respond to half of it.

On September 28 2012 15:22 Djodref wrote:
@DarthPunk

For your information, i consider the comments of debears on my posts legitimate. Let me say that I even don't like them. Currently reading the guides and older game analysis.

On September 28 2012 20:21 Alsn wrote:
you essentially say that he should have kept his mouth shut instead of calling you out

On September 28 2012 21:11 Alsn wrote:
Bleh, and now I realised that that's a pretty bad summary of what I wanted to say.

Summary of my case:
I feel that Z-BosoN is attacking people for the sake of attacking them and in a way that seems to be discouraging healthy discussion. As pointed out by my argument he seems to want debears to just shut up and not share his thoughts.

Him attacking SDM for a post obviously made just as a "Hello, let's have a nice game" type of post before heading off to bed just reinforces this idea to me that he is accusing people for dubious reasons.

On September 28 2012 21:18 Djodref wrote:
@corrosion

I'm actually working in Korea so I don't enjoy so much free time . But a big national holiday is coming this week end so I should be able to participate to the thread and finish to read all the guides.

@everyone
This also means party time ! I'm currently headed to get drunk all night so you shouldn't be hearing from me until tomorrow 12.00 pm KST.

Also I'm accepting Kush explanation for calling Darth a townie but it would be better for him to refrain calling someone a townie or a scum without explanations later on...

On September 28 2012 21:23 Alsn wrote:
Here:

What I'm opposing here is the idea that debears did something inherently wrong in calling out Z-BosoN. It's like he's implying that SDM/kush are let off the hook by debears calling out Z-BosoN. I think Z-BosoN(or anyone else for that matter) should be perfectly capable of pointing out later that he(we) does not consider SDM/kush to be off the hook regardless of whether or not debears is accusing him of something.

On September 28 2012 13:24 debears wrote:
Our main goal is to lynch mafia. Yes, kush has said some scummy things. However, I'm not gonna go around parading this early saying "kush is scum. Kush is scum. OMFG".

Also, let the man defend himself instead of trying to rally everyone active behind your cause so early. If he is scummy, the votes will come.

On September 28 2012 21:31 Alsn wrote:
he has pointed out that he doesn't agree with your tunneling of kush.

On September 28 2012 22:03 Alsn wrote:
Astonishing how? I would like you to explain what's so amazingly pro-town about tunneling kush from the very beginning. I find the risks of that approach to be very high from a town perspective.

There are two scenarios:
A) He flips green, and unless he during the day completely changed his character we will have almost no way of distinguishing who among the people who pushed for his lynch were scum and who were town.

B) He flips scum, at this point I just don't find that likely enough to risk A) happening.

That fact alone is enough for me to see that post of debears as entirely reasonable, since both of you at the time were basically calling out kush for every single post he was making(for good reason, but not if that's the only thing you are doing).

On September 28 2012 22:03 Alsn wrote:
That fact alone is enough for me to see that post of debears as entirely reasonable, since both of you at the time were basically calling out kush for every single post he was making(for good reason, but not if that's the only thing you are doing).

On September 29 2012 04:29 corrosion wrote:
Darth jumps on it, and shortly afterwards he posts about his previous mafia games. I've watched the game where he played cop, and seen that he and Shady argued a lot on D1. So I was thinking that this seems to be Darth's town meta. But I also asked myself why he did post about his previous games at this point in time. Maybe this was all intentional. Suppose he suddenly remembered that game. He might not have wanted people to look at those games earlier, but now he realized that if he posted them he would be able to establish a town read on himself.

On September 29 2012 10:48 kushm4sta wrote:
Address my case darthpunk you are the only person I suspect.

On September 29 2012 00:35 kushm4sta wrote:
Darthpunk

1 You ask people what they think of me, Then when they don't tell you the exact answer you want to hear, you accuse them of defending me.
What you meant was
agree with me about kush or I will FOS you.

On September 29 2012 00:35 kushm4sta wrote:

2 Did anyone notice how I went from DEFINITELY SCUM to a "distraction" instantly and without reason?

@darthpunk
Why did you unvote me if you are certain I am scum?

He explains his strategy:

So why have you already FOSed 3 different people?

On September 29 2012 00:35 kushm4sta wrote:
3 Darth's scumstrat is not so much to flame but to provoke.

This is from the post in which he FOSes Alsn. Not even his most inflamatory statement but pay close attention to his tone in his posts. Specifically, "Savvy?" Condescending, intimidating, irritating. He wants you to get pissed.

On September 29 2012 00:35 kushm4sta wrote:
4 @Darthpunk at the end of newbie 26, marv said scum's biggest mistake was not nightkilling me. So your supposition that scum would never nightkill me is in itself ridiculous. It was an indirect flame, suggesting I play bad, and that's all that post was.

On September 29 2012 11:32 Z-BosoN wrote:
DP, did you read my exchange with him? It's pointless discussing with him.
I think it would be more productive if you would read my case on debears and see if you agree with it.

On September 29 2012 11:33 kushm4sta wrote:
he thinks your base on debears is bad.. I know you try harded on it and I'm sorry dude. Just wait he's going to think it's bad.

On September 29 2012 11:41 kushm4sta wrote:


I can't get more... mafia pros in normal games are not gonna be happy...

On September 29 2012 11:47 kushm4sta wrote:
Guys if I make the sickest most awesome case ever can I get back in?

On September 29 2012 12:01 Z-BosoN wrote:


Are you not entertained?!?!!

On September 29 2012 12:41 Stutters695 wrote:
DarthPunk, its a joke referencing Gladiator. Actually pretty clever, I lol'd.

Anyway, until/if Kush actually decides to play, I think we should just ignore him and focus on everyone else. Between his activity and posts so far it doesn't seem like we're risking a no lynch by doing that.

On September 29 2012 13:12 debears wrote:
And @kush

I am aware of the situation. I hope we can remain friends after my comments earlier. . However, i do have 2 suspects at this point. Fortunately, i have my sam adams to wash away any doubt i have going into the next couple days.

At this point, i see you condemned with no alternative. Please though next game follow through on your pre game enthusiam. You are better than this

On September 29 2012 13:17 Djodref wrote:
Hey, guys !

I would like to bring up something that struck me in the post of corrosion about Darth. I didn't like this post in general because it didn't match my interpretations of the early events between Kush and Darth but I understand that our views can differ.
But looking back at corrosion filter, he's trying to find scummy motivation for Darth to give his links to his previous game. Check the bolded part in the spoiler.

+ Show Spoiler +

But Darth was just answering a request from debears !

+ Show Spoiler +

I think corrosion was trying to cast scummy shadow on Darth to shift the focus on Kush. I did so by omitting/deforming some parts of the thread history. Also, he fits my definition of a semi-lurker trying to blend in.

So, corrosion, until I got your explanations about this point, I got my eyes on you.

##FoS: corrosion

On September 29 2012 15:21 debears wrote:
@djo

What parts of his case specifically do you believe?

His main case against me is contradiction. Look at my case against thrawn in the last game. What was the main point of that argument? Inconsistency. Its an easy point for scum to point out.

There are two possibilities for kushvin my eyes
1) a mafiab tryingbto pity his way out off a lynch
2) a townie acting likeva total noob with accusations against him.

Which has less assumptions? Number 1.

My problen with the scum by associstion is the case that i was defendung kush earky on. That us false i was trying ti communicate ti darth that his reasoning wad based off such a strong s assumption early in the game. In fact, I'd say that z-bosons case against me is the same. He looks at the mafia side only, which to me is a indicator of mafia. I can't make a case dur to drinking and being on my phone.

My read in you is that you are sheeping onto cases. I don't like it because i did the same.

Why do you think i would refer you to a coach? What are the townie and mafia motivations behind it.

@z-boson

The same question stated the line above refers to you

On September 29 2012 16:26 Djodref wrote:
@debears

so let me reformulate my question so we can understand each other better this time

What is your read about me so far ?


[*]town
[*]null
[*]scum


You can use quantitative adjectives

On September 29 2012 17:04 Djodref wrote:
@debears



Also can you explain what you mean exactly by saying Z-BosoN "looks at the mafia side only" ?
I honestly didn't understand the bolded part of your post.

On September 29 2012 18:47 Alsn wrote:
I also want to quickly address the following quote from DarthPunk:
Really? You're still acting like my arguments were some massive conspiracy? Using the words "truth" and "lying" in the context of D1 mafia is quite ridiculous.

What do you know about the truth anyway? Or what do you know about me lying or not? Where did I lie? What's this "truth" that you claim to know? Townspeople do not have any information, as such we are forced to try and interpret people's motivations and intentions. We can't base our arguments on true information until we actually get some(flips, blue confirms, etc.).

I'm keeping my eye on you, but for now I'll let it slide as poor wording since you have been showing pretty pro-town behaviour with regards to the rest of the game.

On September 29 2012 19:41 Alsn wrote:


1) I went back through his filter and checked, I didn't realise he never pushed kush. That being said, that was never part of my case against him anyway. The only time I even mention that is when I'm trying to show why a hypothetical scenario of everyone tunnelling kush is bad. But I'll admit that I was wrong about him attacking kush. If that's the only "lie" you think I committed then I consider this matter closed. There needs to actually be intent when lying, speaking an untruth is only a lie if you know that it's an untruth.

2) I am, I just haven't posted my findings yet because I'm not sure enough about anything so chill the fuck out. At least look at some time stamps before you go all aggro.

On September 29 2012 19:48 Alsn wrote:
EBWOP: And just to point it out I can't for the life of me find where exactly it was explained to me that I said something that wasn't true. So unless you can quote me where exactly someone pointed out that I lied about BosoN attacking kush, by your own definition, you are lying too.

On September 29 2012 20:02 Alsn wrote:
EBWOP again: Just realized it, WIFOM what? How the hell is my analysis of the vote numbers WIFOM. It's logical that from the point of view of a townie that has voted, the only way kush is scum, is if me and Lesrah are scum too. It's simple math.

Given that I have more information than all the townies that have voted so far(I know my own alignment), I can of course conclude that there must be scum that voted for kush, regardless if kush is scum or not. So could Lesrah if he turns out to be town(but as things are looking now, he will probably be replaced/modkilled so he wouldn't participate in this lynch regardless).

Do you even know what WIFOM is? I did not arbitrarily keep arguing back and forth, I made a logical conclusion from the information available.

On September 28 2012 23:30 Z-BosoN wrote:
@Alsn

Reading your trade-off with DP and your cases against me, I find two things:
a) You have a tendency to heavily misinterpret posts and intentions, AND use them as arguments.
b) You say you like Logic, but you don't seem to read carefully enough. Logic with information is useless.
I mean this, especially in the part where you said I was calling kush out along DP, which is clearly a lie.

For the love of God, if you are town, don't keep this up. I understand we are still in day one and we don't have much to go on, but still. The last thing I need is another austincc that will warp everything I say in a "scum would do this" way.

On September 30 2012 10:37 debears wrote:
@DP

Alsn and Corrosion are your other two im betting.

I'm making a case on both, with corrosion first.

On September 30 2012 11:28 Z-BosoN wrote:
DP, I don't see how that's hardly any helpful. Also, did you forget this?



What made you change your mind?

+ Show Spoiler +

On September 30 2012 12:03 Z-BosoN wrote:
Djoref seems pretty townie to me, so that only leaves RSC
I haven't gone over his filter carefully enough yet.

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss corrosion, but atm I have a neutral read of him.

Anyways, gonna go through debears case first.

On September 30 2012 12:05 Z-BosoN wrote:
Also, DP, I wouldn't count on you being dead
I think you are too obvious a choice to get saved by a medic as well, mafia would be taking a huge risk

On September 30 2012 17:13 Z-BosoN wrote:
So I woke up a couple of hours earlier than I should have. Instead of going back to sleep, I decide to go read some filters. Sometimes I hate this game rofl.

Anyways, I will agree with one thing DP said, alsn is scummy as shit. Look at his stance on kush throughout the thread. Brief timeline here:

ACT I - Kush. If you are scummy like last game, I will lynch you no matter what.

+ Show Spoiler +

ACT II - It is as we feared. Kush has defiled us all. FOS Kush
+ Show Spoiler +

ACT III - DarthPunk, you are going overboard on kush. I find you using ridiculous logic. How are you so sure of this and that? Hm.... I'll go with you being townie, ya know, for throwing yourself out there.

+ Show Spoiler +

+ Show Spoiler +

INTERLUDE --- kush goes ape shit. Ravages town with his treachery. Denies every chance he has to be saved, and wails incessantly. The ACT I prophecy was correct. However...

ACT IV - It is as I feared. Everyone is voting for kush with little discussion. I dislike this lynch. I'm ok with lynching kush, but I wanna lynch my biggest scum read. You know, the one I don't have. Also, I think that scum wouldn't just go ahead and bus. You know, they would probably most likely trying to find another solution other than bussing. You know, like the thing I'm trying to do right now.

+ Show Spoiler +


ACT V - The resolve. I've had a vision. It is inevitable, kush must be lynched. I have realized the errors of my ways and it is imperative that kush is lynched.

+ Show Spoiler +

sup scum? anyone?

On September 30 2012 18:10 Alsn wrote:
Hi, just woke up, skimmed through the last couple of pages.

Not sure if you even want to know, but at the time of, as you say, act III - IV, I had a gut feeling that things were going way too easy for kush to be scum, and that made me doubt the motivations of DarthPunk, as well as the fact that I had found you pretty scummy from the day before. When I was going to make a case against either of you however, I only found the few questions I asked DP about, but which I then later found out was just him being rightfully(I thought he was out to get me for no apparent reason) suspicious of me.

Then as I went through your filter, you started to make more and more sense, just like I and everyone else has pointed out, your case against debears now has merit, which pretty much meant that I just didn't find you as scummy as I thought you would be. So yea, the two scum reads that I didn't actually have, weren't actually scummy. Trying to make a case against someone for no reason seemed like inherently anti-town, so I just gave up when I thought about just why I thought kush was town, what had he done that helped town? While I imagine being a victim like that would be pretty harsh, nothing he had done had tried to show that he really was a victim, so I went along with the lynch. I had to vote for someone.

That being said, this discussion helps no one, If you think I'm scummy, go ahead and think so, I won't be lynched for another 2,5 days either way so I'll have tons of time to make myself useful. Like I said to kush, actions speak louder than words, I don't expect anyone to judge me in any other way.

On September 30 2012 20:29 Sonic Death Monkey wrote:
After last night's post I've decide the lurker I found most suspicious is suspicious enough to call out. So far I've seen zero scum hunting from Djo. The best attempts I see are these two:


+ Show Spoiler +

Here he brings up a point that had been brought up by Darth already, basically adding nothing on your own.



+ Show Spoiler +

Again, this is a completely ripping off an earlier argument by Boson, adding nothing new. Aside from those two attempts, he's keeping his post count relatively high while not posting anything of value.

So yeah, I've encouraged newbies to post, but this is exactly what I call posting for the sake of posting. Adding nothing new and just getting along, and that's scummy. Further...





This is not the first time you're trying to give yourself townie points for asking a question to Kush. Last time it was more thinly veiled but it still caught my attention:



Asking Kush the question doesn't give you townie points. The thing with a scum slip is that it's obviously something which happens unintentionally, so if you were both scum it obviously wasn't planned anyway (or at least highly unlikely to have been). To be fair he did at least engage in the discussion, which can be seen as scum hunting, but not until Darth had aggresively called out Kush. What follows is this:




Casting doubts on Darth's suspicion, downplaying it as a flame war. Even if Darth would be able to flame Kush as scum (he probably would), it's not the focus here, there are actually good arguments supporting the accusations.



Here he is keeping his options open, which is a convenient strategy in a pressured situation. Then actually buying into Kush's silly explanation:



Finally jumping the wagon with weak reasoning (later claiming my post helped pursaude him):




I realize this can be the result of him being a total newbie, but his posts are really unconvincing and worthy of suspicion.

##FOS: Djodref

On September 30 2012 21:41 Sonic Death Monkey wrote:


I got a lot of thoughts on this case, but as I'm typing them out I realize I'd rather have Alsn respond in detail first. I'll just say I'm not convinced atm.

On September 29 2012 12:53 Djodref wrote:
Here is my last statement about Kush...



I did accept his explanation at the time but I cannot let him off the hook for the posts where he said he didn't care about this game anymore. Also I really don't like the posts where he implies that debears is his scum partner.
I don't see any pro-town motivation for such posts.
That's why he's getting my vote now.

##Vote: kushm4sta

Also a side note for the guys having trouble with my pseudo, you can call me Djo if you want

On September 29 2012 20:11 Djodref wrote:
Hey guys !

I'm going out tonight again so I'll see you all after kush flips red ^^
I might check the thread drunken and all when I come back but it should be after the deadline so don't expect me to change my vote anymore.

See ya !

On September 30 2012 22:05 Sonic Death Monkey wrote:


About the case. Like I said, I'd rather have Alsn respond first.

On September 30 2012 22:03 Sonic Death Monkey wrote:
And to clarify a couple of things about my case on Djo now that I'm up to date on the thread:

1. Latching on to others reads: As newbie scum it's really hard to make original cases. I had first hand experience Cubu and Imcasey in XXVI. The only case Imcasey could make was against our scum buddy Xatalos (that's quite easy because he knew he was scum). We had a similar situation with Debears in XXVII, at least in the beginning where the only case he could make was a defense of Thrawn, which is easy to do because he knew knew he was town (well, he flipped SK, but Debears couldn't know).

2. How can anyone buy into Kush's defense that easily? A newbie town is usually very suspcicious and it was a really silly defense, at the very best null. Using "player" and "people" sounds awkward? How isn't that an obvious lie?

+ Show Spoiler +

As for the other lurkers, I don't find Remedy suspicious, rather the opposite although his post count is still low. Nothing really stuck out to me the same way Djo did when reading Omn's and Corrosion's filter.

On September 30 2012 22:08 Alsn wrote:
I'm back, just read through the last couple of posts. I don't see the benefit of me just continually defending myself, I've conceded that with the way I misread some posts my posts come off as quite scummy, since the only explanation I have is that my arguments contradicted obvious truths which unfortunately was unbeknownst to me at the time, thus leading me to suspect people for faulty reasons.

If you absolutely want me to respond in more detail I will, but I don't see the town benefit in me spending a bunch of time explaining my reasons for my posting so far, since anything I say at this point could just be seen as scum excuses. I made some mistakes in my reasoning, chiefly overreacting to Darth pressuring me, but also probably overestimated how scummy Z-BosoN's early comments were.

If anything, I'd rather be held responsible if I don't actually shape up from now on.

On September 29 2012 16:31 DarthPunk wrote:


Why are you so desperate to distance yourself from a Kush red flip? Regardless of the answer, we can deal with any association cases between yourself and Kush after the flip.

The fact is though. That is the weakest part of the case against you. So of course the only part that you really defend.
You are essentially saying Z - Boson has confirmation Bias. This is not the case. His case against you stands on it's own merits. Your defense consists of trying to discredit it's author. That does not stop the facts being what they are. Z - Boson only brought them to light.

On September 30 2012 00:02 debears wrote:
Alright guys, sobered up and reading to go into ass kicking mode. At this point, kush is going to be lynched. However, some of you faultily believe this “association case” linking me and kush by Boson and his case against me. I originally intended this to be a pure defense case, but after typing it out, Z-Boson comes across scummy to me. Anyways here we go.



Note the use of red in this whole thing is to clarify what I’m refuting.

Inconsistency 1
1) My “want to win”, use the coaches pm has mainly townie motivation. Why wouldn't I tell everyone to PM their coaches after last game? Hapapauli specifically mentioned how Thrawn was the only one actually getting help from him. There can be some mafia WIFOM argument, but that is assuming more than the fact I want to win and the obvious townie motivation for it.

2) Next, you say that I don’t attack DarthPunk. While I never attacked DarthPunk (he had good reasoning for suspecting kush), I did tell him to cool his jets and stop trying to convince others to his argument so early in the game, especially since kush was afk at the moment darth attacked kush. Now, because of his early hardcore tunnel, we are in a situation where the lynch is one sided. That doesn’t do really any good for us unless he is mafia. If he turns town, we gave the mafia a veil to hide under. Another townie side Z-Boson failed to address.

3) From a townie perspective, I wanted more information on kush, and I wanted to spread out some focus on other people early on to avoid a one sided lynch for the reasons in 2), hence the posts directed at Djo and Z-Boson early on.

4) Then, your points about me being defensive at kush were not defenses of kush’s actions. They were attempts to tell darth to chill out and subdue some of his power trip, which I said in both quotes that you post in that section.

5) When you say a townie with a FOS will want to deal with arguments first, that is true. However, kush was afk at the moment and darth was hammering him without kush able to defend himself at a very early point in time in the game. As stated above, look at the situation we are in now if kush flips town.

Inconsistency 2

1) If you looked at my posts after my “PM marv for help” post, I believe corrosion instantly assumed that I confirmed him town. That is not true at all. Notice A) Djo is a noob and B) I said COACHES. The word townie was never said in the sentence. You guys are putting words in my mouth. Also, note how in one of Djo’s prior posts, he says he was going to go look at guides. I don’t understand why you guys are so eager to jump on someone trying to help a newbie.

Yet again, townie motivation: If Djo is town, it will greatly help us if he gets help. Even if he isn't, it will raise the quality of this NEWBIE game and help us all improve if he gets help.

Ending

1) I want to quote something from Bosons post. “Note that I no longer think that his defense of SDM is scummy. I've gone over that a few times and I admit that it can also come from a townie perspective.” By his logic, that does not factor into my case. Also, how do the other two reasons in your post not have a townie perspective/motivation?

2) The list of 1,2,3 Boson made at the bottom. If I read the post correctly, the only other argument is that my cases against Djo and Z-Bo early one were a "scum recipe". To that, I say duh. Semi-active lurker is a place where mafia can hide to look like they are contributing without actually doing so. I noticed this last game with JacobStrangeLove. I also read some guides that state that. Why wouldn't I call you out early when there's not much to go on?

Now for z-bos next post right after the post in which he attacked me (5 min after to be exact):

+ Show Spoiler +

I would like to know how I changed my mind twice on scumhunting. Just because someone looks scummy, we don’t need to bash their heads in with the same evidence over and over and over again. In kush’s case, Darth had gone overboard and was sufficiently bashing in kush’s head by himself. What’s the point in me picking up a club and going after him when he was afk?

In Djo’s case, I called him out for the quality of his posting. He is a newbie. I decided it was best to not attack him and let him actually get into the game. As I said, I don’t read too much into early posts.

Also, the reason why I “changed my mind” is that Z-boson was becoming a scum read to me. His OMGUS FOS set off alarms in my head. His posts since then are picking out only the mafia motivations or stating the townie motivations and instantly discarding them. It is hard to split my focus on 3 people at a time, so I’d rather worry about Z-Bo and Kush than chase a newbie around.

Alright on to another post

+ Show Spoiler +

On September 29 2012 11:32 Z-BosoN wrote:
DP, did you read my exchange with him? It's pointless discussing with him.
I think it would be more productive if you would read my case on debears and see if you agree with it.

On September 29 2012 14:12 Z-BosoN wrote:
They are probably just echoing the suspicion I posted earlier, concerning my assumption on mods.
It's a theory I have in case he pops scum. Don't treat it as an argument. Treat my case as an argument.

On October 01 2012 12:56 Z-BosoN wrote:


Except that I didn't have a previous post on stutters explaining why he was a sheepy one-liner semi-lurker poster. Read the case one more time please.

On October 01 2012 14:01 debears wrote:
@ DP and Z-Bo

What are your thoughts on my doubts about DP day 1 in terms of his meta?

Was wondering if you saw that post or not.

I feel like that is the most important point to address against me atm

On October 01 2012 01:06 debears wrote:
@Djo

Read my posts. The second case I had planned was against SDM. However, SDM's posts have been well thought out with good reasoning. It would be useless and stupid to post a case based only on meta from last game.

@Darth

Seeing as the main part of the case against me is my "soft defend of kush" (actually telling you to chill out on it), I would like to explain my reasoning for telling you so d1. I asked for your previous games to examine your meta. A few things stuck out on me.



NMM XXII - Godfather

Here you gave an early FOS against Mordanis as godfather

From that point on, you tunnel him pretty hard (you threw out some other accusations but nothing big)

Here you send a vote for Mordanis, the first vote on him.

I found it similar to the pattern with kush at the time.

NMM LVII - Roleblocker

In this game, you jump on Mattchew early. Pretty much all your posts revolve around him

You weren't anywhere near voting him first, but your early tunnel of him was alarming.

This one wasn't as similar, but still made me a little wary to trust you.

However, 2 things made me think you could also be town. In your two mafia games, you hardly used red text. (I think once per game both games only on one word).

In your game as cop, you used the red text a bit more than you did as mafia. One post had a bit of red around pg 4 of your filter.

Also, your post quality in this game was an improvement over your other games as mafia.

Thus, I was confused for most of day 1 about you. I wasn't willing to condemn kush based on how you attacked him. However, once kush imploded, it became apparent to me that he was, at the very least, a lost cause, at most scum.

On October 01 2012 14:52 debears wrote:
First, you are wrong about the soft defend coming before reading.

Here is my FOS on kush
+ Show Spoiler +

Here is my very next post, which asks for your other games.



Notice my wording. You came on too strong for me to not be suspicious of you. Your meta as scum follows a tunnel pattern. Also, since kush was following his scum meta, I also thought that if you were mafia, you could have just found an easy target for a mislynch. Also, you didn't tunnel anywhere near as hard as cop early game.

Once I saw that it was clear that kush was either giving up (highly doubted it) or mafia, I then found it enough to overcome my doubts about you.

Now that Kush has flipped scum, I can now say that the doubts I had about your meta are cleared.

On October 01 2012 15:00 debears wrote:
I made extensive cases against corrosion and alsn.

Z-Bo's most recent case against alsn was stuff I already pointed out. Look at my filter

On October 01 2012 15:02 debears wrote:
Oh and btw take a look at corrosion's response to my post. He failed to defend himself and instead chose to OMGUS FOS me.

On October 01 2012 15:07 debears wrote:
SDM - his posts have been solid so far. The one thing I didn't like about him day 1 is that he wasn't as active as he was last game. He has shown quality so I believe it is more of his schedule. Slight town read.

Stutters - he was decisive in his vote of kush and was the first one after you to vote for him. However, he hasn't made any contributions to day 2. I would hope he makes a case soon. Slight town read.

Remedy - His posting is much improved from last game. However, there hasn't been much there. He did point out some stuff about corrosion but hasn't followed it up. He's now locking on to omniscient. He's a null read still. Need to see more

On October 02 2012 11:23 Djodref wrote:
Hello guys !

Just a quick post from work.

It looks like either Alsn or debears are going to be lynched today. I'm totally fine with that because they are actually my scumteam right now. I'd prefer a debears lynch because of my cases against him so my vote is on him right now but I guess we are going to end up lynching Alsn for the following reasons:

• Association with kush
  
• Clustering the thread without scumhunting
  
• Lack of commitment
  

Also DarthPunk has made an early vote him so I'm pretty sure town is gonna sheep on him at the end. But please don't do this ! Try to come out with your own decisions
Nevertheless, I might need to switch my vote to secure a lynch on Alsn. If so, I'm going to do it 5 hours before the deadline when I go to bed.

Also I'm seriously promising you here a better post regarding why I suspect Alsn.

Now regarding corrosion, I think he is the wagon mafia is going to try to push today so please take your time to read his filter twice (not so long ) with the following glasses:

• He is an evil scum !
  
• He is newbie town ^^
  

And decide for yourself

See ya !

PS: I'm hoping for Lesrah to catch up quickly

On September 28 2012 11:05 debears wrote:
@Kush

I don't like the way you are starting off this game kush. It's eerily similar as last game when you were mafia. You mention you're deathless streak, nk, and your scummy meta without anyone bringing it up. You should know that I most likely know you're trends better than anyone else in this game.

The only difference between this game and last is that you have engaged in a flame war with Darth this game, which is unhelpful to our town.

FOS Kush

On September 28 2012 11:34 debears wrote:
@Darthpunk

Do you have links to all your previous games?

I see validity in your points. However, I need to see how you've played before. You are coming off really strong really early.

On September 28 2012 11:39 debears wrote:
As I said, I want a quick look at you first. Second, there isn't much more to add to what you said about it. It does give off the impression of extra information.

On September 28 2012 13:24 debears wrote:
@darthpunk

You could also say that you are too convinced in your reasons. What I am cautious of at this point is that you stated directly before the game that you were after kush if he plays like he has in his past 3 games. I feel like that may be clouding your judgement in this situation.

Our main goal is to lynch mafia. Yes, kush has said some scummy things. However, I'm not gonna go around parading this early saying "kush is scum. Kush is scum. OMFG".

Also, let the man defend himself instead of trying to rally everyone active behind your cause so early. If he is scummy, the votes will come.

Anyhow. I see two others who have suspiciously posted.

-snip-

On September 28 2012 14:43 debears wrote:
@darth

When did I say stop going after him? I said wait for him to respond.

You can be convinced he's scum, but you're making a huge deal out of it early in the game. multiple red texts with the word scum. Got your point.

I'm not defending him as much as I'm trying to tell you that you are going overboard right now. You don't have to rush in annointing him scum.

On September 29 2012 01:55 debears wrote:
@Djoref



Please pm marv for help. The coaches are great

On September 29 2012 08:15 debears wrote:
lol kush....what's up with you today?

On September 29 2012 08:37 debears wrote:
@kush

Why the sudden no care attitude?

You come in to the game brimming with confidence from last game, citing your deathless streak yet again. However, no you have seemed to give up with so a small amount of pressure (from darth and sonic) when you have plenty of time to help us out.

On September 29 2012 09:08 debears wrote:

I just can't buy this bullshit. You are either

1) Mafia trying to pity your way out of being lynched.
or
2) A little bitch

I see 1 more likely from having played with you. You put in a good game and I had a lot of fun. This is just ruining this game. I don't see you pulling this off as a town.

For that reason, combined with the aforementioned scumslips.

##Vote Kushm4sta

On September 29 2012 13:12 debears wrote:
And @kush

I am aware of the situation. I hope we can remain friends after my comments earlier. . However, i do have 2 suspects at this point. Fortunately, i have my sam adams to wash away any doubt i have going into the next couple days.

At this point, i see you condemned with no alternative. Please though next game follow through on your pre game enthusiam. You are better than this

On September 29 2012 13:47 debears wrote:
@darthpunk

Currently, you should know one of my suspects based on a heated discussion btw him and me. The other i am waiting for a few more posts to give him a fair opportunity. The second one is a wildcard. Tomorrow i will build a casebfor him when I'm at my computer and in a better ba situation to make a suitable case

On October 02 2012 13:53 Z-BosoN wrote:
I'm still highly indecisive on debears or alsn.
I will look carefully through both their filters.
It's tough, because I've read some of XXVII and debears did a pretty good job as scum, and Alsn almost has no meta to look at. I am extremely busy at the moment, so I'll probably just end up voting, and giving light reasoning behind it.

On September 29 2012 14:08 debears wrote:
Why am i scum by association? Someone want to provide a clesr case so i csn refutre it?

On September 29 2012 13:12 debears wrote:
aware of the situation.

On September 29 2012 15:21 debears wrote:
@djo

What parts of his case specifically do you believe?

His main case against me is contradiction. Look at my case against thrawn in the last game. What was the main point of that argument? Inconsistency. Its an easy point for scum to point out.

There are two possibilities for kushvin my eyes
1) a mafiab tryingbto pity his way out off a lynch
2) a townie acting likeva total noob with accusations against him.

Which has less assumptions? Number 1.

On September 30 2012 04:58 debears wrote:
How am i supposed to know whether darth himself is scum trying to push an easy target (i will expand more on this tonight when i am at my computer) or whether he is a townie truly overconfident in his belief about kush being scum. A good case doesnt necessarily mean someone is town. Look at my case against thrawn last game.

Finally, why does everyone seem so damn confident in their reads? Especially on day 1?

On October 02 2012 14:24 debears wrote:
@Darth
Your case is repetitive of what has already been said multiple times.

On October 02 2012 14:24 debears wrote:
You read too much into "golden scumslips". They are rare (or so I'm told).

On October 02 2012 14:24 debears wrote:
Anyways, as I explained earlier. Your meta as scum threw me off such strong commitment from you about kush. Whether you believe that or not is your deal. I would advise everyone to look at my post about Darth's meta. If you look at my d1 posts about kush from that perspective it makes sense why.

1) I never discredited Darth. I told him only to calm down
2) I never actually defended kush. Never did the words come out of my mouth that anything kush said was not scummy or less scummy than anyone thought.

Think about the above hard Darth.

On October 02 2012 14:24 debears wrote:
My "slip" is another point I have already addressed. If you want to not believe anything I say, go ahead.

On October 02 2012 14:24 debears wrote:
Next, you cite the exchange between me and kush which you found "strange". You are overlooking the fact that I had immense respect for kush after last game (as well as jacob) because I had a lot of fun with him and he was a good teammate.

On October 02 2012 14:24 debears wrote:
Next, the sudden change was due to pretty much an epiphony. I was having trouble deciding whether or not kush was genuinely giving up because the evidence was against him. It threw me way off his last game as scum. He did not, at all, even when considered suspicious by thrawn, act in that manner. I finally realized he must have been mafia trying to pity his way out since he his desire to win is strong.

On October 02 2012 14:24 debears wrote:
About the aware of the situation post, it was simply a bit giving respect to kush.

On October 02 2012 14:24 debears wrote:
And then the final part you address. You are misreading. I had 2 scumreads at that point (1-Z-Bo, 2 - SDM). I had to wait on announcing SDM (which I did after the lynch) as my second because his activity level was way different d1 of this game compared to last game although his posts had been good. His activity level has increased so I don't have concerns right now about him.

And about reluctant to be scum by association. That is a stupid argument. My problem was with Z-Bo's retarded assocation by modwarning case which others had seen as rational.

On October 02 2012 14:24 debears wrote:
I do have a really good question for you though:

Why do you want to vote me over Alsn?

On October 02 2012 14:24 debears wrote:
Differences between us:
1) Contribution - I have provided multiple extensive cases while Alsn has had nilch. In other words, I have actually scumhunted. Alsn said all day 1 how people should make cases and bring others to light. Instead, he focuses on the exchange between me and Z-Bo, and comes to no conclusions.
2) Defense of kush - He actually defended kush, calling kush's sips "not damning". Instead of infering what people mean you should look at what they actually say.
3) Answering Questions - I have addressed all these questions up front. Alsn has managed to dodge many questions and accusations, especially the ones about his lack of scumhunting
4) Length of "Scum actions" - a great majority of your case is based only on day 1, with no mention of anything I have done day 2. Alsn has continued to do nothing.

How long ago did you make up your mind that I was confirmed scum? Have you actually read through all my posts from n1, d2 and reevaluate your position?

Do you feel my posting has more scum motivation than Alsn's? That is probably the most important question.

On October 02 2012 14:27 debears wrote:
ebwop - if you want me to bring up the posts on my defense against your meta/"soft defend of kush" and the "scumslip" then I will

On October 02 2012 14:55 Z-BosoN wrote:
@DarthPunk

What do you mean by the bolded part? Can you please clarify?



Where did you state this?

On October 01 2012 15:01 DarthPunk wrote:
Addendum:
So it is a race on who can make the best cases to see who gets my vote. DjoDref has done this. Alsn hasn't really made a scum read yet despite multiple very long posts. You have made a case on Alsn and corrosion. I would like to hear a succinct summary of your top scum reads from all of you.

But I guess it is only fair to vote for the one whom has contributed the least firm cases at this point.

##:Unvote

##Vote: Alsn

On October 02 2012 15:03 Z-BosoN wrote:
So you typoed?
The bolded part says that you would lynch whoever made the most scumhunting.

On October 02 2012 15:31 Shady Sands wrote:
Hi guys, I just got told I'm subbing in for Lesrah. In brief, I've played a few rounds before and I'm looking forward to catching some scum with everyone else here.

I'll be off to bed soon and will probably be at work until late tomorrow. Sometime between now and then I'll check through Kushm4sta's filter to see what sort of associative tells I can get. Until then, glhf everyone.

On October 02 2012 15:41 Z-BosoN wrote:
Hello shady! At least this game you won't be lynched day 1
Allright guys, I'm still torn on the lynch choice for today, big post incoming.

On October 02 2012 15:49 Sonic Death Monkey wrote:
Is this guy famous or something? Which games has he been playing in?

On October 02 2012 17:18 Z-BosoN wrote:
Hmm, screw sleep. School starts in about two hours anyways, I'll just sleep there.
Once again, Mafia screwing over my academic life, I really have to control my time management.
I'll just stick around discussing with whoever may be online atm.

On October 02 2012 21:03 Alsn wrote:
Ah, right, the one you posted yesterday that I didn't have time to respond to.

Let me see. I've touched on my kush reasoning already but I basically felt the same thing Shady now claims to be feeling for debears. Things were going way too easily, as such I was(in hindsight, probably wrongly) trying to find reasons for why people would try and frame kush(and whom). It didn't occur to me that scum would have bussed him without putting up much of a fight. I suppose that actually supports your own argument that he "blew up" while I wasn't there to defend him, but I would have had no intentions of doing so anyway. I only started to feel defensive for him once there were an overwhelming amount of votes against him. See my somewhat convoluted "vote argument". In hindsight I probably should have just kept that line of thinking to myself.

Your final question about easy outs. At the time I objected to the supposed 100% scum slip based on the idea that he could have used "townie" as a replacement word for player. Ironically, that's the exact same explanation he used himself, which probably added to my feeling that he was getting framed. At the time I was merely giving him the benefit of the doubt though. His reasons that anything else felt awkward was pretty silly but I must have dismissed it for when I finally saw his reasons, I was in full "this is too easy" mode.

And now I really don't want to explain myself any longer. I'll answer short questions, but these last few posts are my final attempts at trying to explain my reasons for acting the way I've done so far. I'll make a last attempt at finding some scum before my possible lynch, but at this point I'm afraid since most people have just been sheeping onto myself and debears, finding any might be difficult.