EPTNewbie Mini Mafia XXVIII - Page 2
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debears
United States2516 Posts
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debears
United States2516 Posts
What parts of his case specifically do you believe? His main case against me is contradiction. Look at my case against thrawn in the last game. What was the main point of that argument? Inconsistency. Its an easy point for scum to point out. There are two possibilities for kushvin my eyes 1) a mafiab tryingbto pity his way out off a lynch 2) a townie acting likeva total noob with accusations against him. Which has less assumptions? Number 1. My problen with the scum by associstion is the case that i was defendung kush earky on. That us false i was trying ti communicate ti darth that his reasoning wad based off such a strong s assumption early in the game. In fact, I'd say that z-bosons case against me is the same. He looks at the mafia side only, which to me is a indicator of mafia. I can't make a case dur to drinking and being on my phone. My read in you is that you are sheeping onto cases. I don't like it because i did the same. Why do you think i would refer you to a coach? What are the townie and mafia motivations behind it. @z-boson The same question stated the line above refers to you | ||
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debears
United States2516 Posts
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debears
United States2516 Posts
On September 29 2012 05:29 Z-BosoN wrote: All right, I went through debears filter now, and I'm confident he is scum. Let's go through this more carefully now. His first post: + Show Spoiler + On September 28 2012 11:05 debears wrote: Lol. Kush already going at it. Hey guys. I'm debears. This is my second game ever of mafia. I have a couple of things to add: + Show Spoiler + You also clutter the thread if you just post alot. Let me specify. Post quality as often as you can. That means reread the thread and build good cases. One liners don't do much good. Cases with multiple quotes and a few sentences of explanation per quote are good (most of the time). Also, USE YOUR COACHES TOWN. Thrawn pmed Hapa over 50 times last game and he had the best town performance. That isn't a coincidence. @Kush I don't like the way you are starting off this game kush. It's eerily similar as last game when you were mafia. You mention you're deathless streak, nk, and your scummy meta without anyone bringing it up. You should know that I most likely know you're trends better than anyone else in this game. The only difference between this game and last is that you have engaged in a flame war with Darth this game, which is unhelpful to our town. FOS Kush @everyone One more thing: Feel free to accuse and build cases on anyone you want for the first 24 hours. However, let's start tunneling for the second 24 hours. Also, I would like everyone to start considering a lurker (in your head) once we hit the second 24 hours as a backup. If we get close to the lynch deadline, and there are no scummy candidates, feel free to post a good case on which lurker would be the best candidate. First of all, his "I want town to win!!" post telling town to use their coaches. He then FoS's Kush, due to the fact that he's playing a similar game as the one he was scum. He says that DP + kush flame war is bad for the town, but doesn't attack Darthpunk, probably because he finds kush to be more scummy looking. Now, from a townie perspective, what does debear want? Information in order to lynch kush, as he pointed a FOS mostly based on a meta read. But suddenly, towards darthpunk: snip --You could also say that you are too convinced in your reasons. What I am cautious of at this point is that you stated directly before the game that you were after kush if he plays like he has in his past 3 games. I feel like that may be clouding your judgement in this situation. Our main goal is to lynch mafia. Yes, kush has said some scummy things. However, I'm not gonna go around parading this early saying "kush is scum. Kush is scum. OMFG". Also, let the man defend himself instead of trying to rally everyone active behind your cause so early. If he is scummy, the votes will come. He is defensive towards kush. That's not how townies think. While I agree that DP is a bit overboard on kush, I don't agree that he failed to give arguments as to why he thinks that is so. A townie with a FOS on someone will want to deal with the arguments first. He doesn't do that, and suddenly becomes defensive on Kush. He says, later: I'm not defending him as much as I'm trying to tell you that you are going overboard right now. You don't have to rush in annointing him scum. He is more bothered by DPs certainty than by his actual arguments. Inconsistency #1. He then comes up with two cases. One against me, and one against Djoref: @Boson + Show Spoiler + On September 28 2012 09:10 Z-BosoN wrote: After LVII I'm rather liking the idea of policy lynches, in extreme cases. Killing lurkers in a lurker-infested town, for example, is something I'm inclined to agree on. If the town proves itself active, then whoever proves himself scummier will occupy the noose. Given that this is a newbie game, scums are generally more scared to post. While that is a general tendency, I don't agree with mass posters being cleared right off the bat, even if their posts seem meaningful. What I suggest in this game, is that people read. From my few games, much time is usually wasted discussing things that have not been read properly. This is a rather useless post. Newbie towns want to scumhunt. Newbie scum want to look like they are scumhunting. That =/= posting a lot but not for the sake of posting, or whatever you meant. And please tell me, what do you mean? You say you hope to have moved past the lurker discussion, and yet you are telling people to post a lot? In my eyes you are telling people not to lurk because that will make them seem scummy. It seems to me that you are indirectly stating your views on lurkers despite openly saying you don't want to talk about them. Boson, please try not to read too hard into a person's very first posts and make something out of nothing. It is pretty clear what sonic was saying. He wants newbies to post so that they don't get grouped under the lurker corral that usually follows up later. Last game, we had lurkers galore and it really messed up the town. Also, you mention that his post is useless. Now I will examine your two other posts in terms of uselessness. A one-liner. A question that really doesn't accomplish anything. In other words, a useless post. Also, your next post doesn't address his response although he responded right after and you posted within 30 minutes of his response in a pretty light thread. On September 28 2012 09:43 Z-BosoN wrote: @DP Saying we will lynch lurkers is one thing. Deciding whether a lurker should die later at day two is another. What I said is I'm inclined to lynch a lurker if there aren't better choices, not that we will 100% lynch a lurker. @Stutters I'd like to see more posts from you. In XXIV you showed you were capable of making decent posts as town, so I encourage you to post eve more here. @kush What's your view on darthpunk? You said you don't like his coldness, but you don't like it in a "he's scum" sort of way? Yet again, nothing of substance here. You go more in depth about semantics (is that the right word I'm looking for?) about lynching lurkers and lynching lurkers at day two. Second, you call out stutters, who has already been warned by others and most likely the mods for no reason this early in the game. Finally, two sentences, two questions going on about the exact wording of kush's statements. It sounded like before the game you had stated that you have played in multiple games. Is that true? For someone who is telling other people to not post useless posts, you aren't doing a good job of it yourself. Looks more like you are trying to just be active while off the radar. In other words, you are a semi-active lurker who has bad post quality. Sounds like characteristics of a certain alignment. @Djoref + Show Spoiler + On September 28 2012 08:51 Djodref wrote: @Darthpunk Nevermind you look just more confident to get a scum on D1 than me. Regarding my plan, I think we need general directions to follow because of the majority lynch. It is a way to gather everybody around 2-3 suspicious players and secure a lynch. I'm assuming everyone agree on a no-lynch to be stupid. Djoref, I don't like that statement at all. That's the second post you bring up about the likelihood of lynching a townie d1. As town, you should never have that mentality. I would probably less likely to bring this up if you were a total nooby. However, you said you "know Kush's meta" which means you have some decent understanding of the game for a noob. By saying this, it seems that you are setting yourself an excuse to be indecisive later in the day when the lynch voting comes around. Alone, it isn't much. However, your other posts don't help. On September 28 2012 08:44 Djodref wrote: @Darthpunk Considering that we are likely to lynch a town on D1, don't you think it's a lesser wrong to get rid of someone inactive ? Inactivity means no scumhunt and room to hide for the mafia... After playing mafia last game, I feel like heavy lurking is a bad play for mafia. It puts too much pressure on you are as a scum. Instead, posting lightly without much substance is more mafia indicative. Yet again, I feel you are just looking like you are contributing without saying much. Especially when you already covered your thoughts in a previous post. On September 28 2012 08:36 Djodref wrote: Hello everybody ! About me This is my first game ever on forum but I've been playing on SC2mafia and also irl. But I've been lurking on the TL Mafia forum for a while (so I know your meta kush^^) and I decided to join this newbie game. I'm also a French guy and I live in Korea so my english is not on top and it's going to ne difficult for me to be around at deadline (5.00 am KST). Lurker policy From the games I've seen, unless you have a golden scumslip on d1, it's very difficult to lynch a scum the very first day. So I have no problem ending up voting for the most suspicious lurker at the end of the day. I define most suspicious lurker as a semi-lurker just trying to blend in. Day Plan I don't think to be able to be around for the first deadline so I would like to propose a day plan to secure a lynch as we are using a majority vote. First 24 hours to find lynch candidates while scumhunting and next 20 hours to decide who is the scummiest. Last 4 hours to consolidate the vote or switch to a lurker. Please discuss  Notice how you are just repeating points? It isn't helpful to us. Next post On September 28 2012 11:09 Djodref wrote: @Kush Was it also a joke ? How can you be so sure you are not going to be NKed ? A two sentence, two question post. I don't like these. They are worthless. Also, this question came quite a bit later after darthpunk already was asking questions about joking. You seem to be sheeping onto darth's case against kush. On September 28 2012 11:53 Djodref wrote: I would also like to hear you explanations about this specific part. I don't have a read on Darth on the moment considering he has only been hard tunneling you. As you said yourself you have a scummy meta so you are an easy target for early game to put pressure on. So what makes him so much town ? Yet again, this post is just repeating what darth is saying. Another question. I don't like this. Your early posts are indicative of a semi-active scum. Sheeping, question posts, and rehashing things already said multiple times. Notice the similarity between the two. He attacks us for asking questions (later on denies that they provide any discussion whatsoever), and falls into the same "semi-active lurker" category he's sniffing about. I will ignore the quality of his arguments, which I personally think are horrible, and will look more towards their similarity. From his case against me: A one-liner. A question that really doesn't accomplish anything. In other words, a useless post. Also, your next post doesn't address his response although he responded right after and you posted within 30 minutes of his response in a pretty light thread. For someone who is telling other people to not post useless posts, you aren't doing a good job of it yourself. Looks more like you are trying to just be active while off the radar. In other words, you are a semi-active lurker who has bad post quality. Sounds like characteristics of a certain alignment. From his case against Djoref: A two sentence, two question post. I don't like these. They are worthless. Also, this question came quite a bit later after darthpunk already was asking questions about joking. You seem to be sheeping onto darth's case against kush. Your early posts are indicative of a semi-active scum. Sheeping, question posts, and rehashing things already said multiple times. See the similarity, especially the bolded part? It seems that he has this "semi-active scum" cake recipe that he is using to sniff out scum. He also calls us out on our posting quality, in my case saying it is bad. I won't address his next post towards me because I've already done so, and because it doesn't increase his scumminess , as "bad cases =/= scum" (although it pisses me off). Anyways, now to the main stuff. He has a case against me and Djoref, for pretty much the same reasoning. Yet, check out what his next post on Djoref is: On September 29 2012 01:55 debears wrote: @Djoref Please pm marv for help. The coaches are great Wtf??? What ?? Where is his case against Djoref?? He goes from a scummy-looking sheep with one liners to a "townie who should pm marv for help"? Could he have forgotten that Djoref was one of his main suspicions? Inconsistency #2 Note that I no longer think that his defense of SDM is scummy. I've gone over that a few times and I admit that it can also come from a townie perspective. To summarize, here are the main inconsistencies in his play that scream to me SCUM: 1) He had a FOS on kush, then hurried on to defend him, in the manner I've shown above. I cannot fathom for the life of me having a FOS on someone and suddenly feel like I have to address an exaggeration on that person before I actually address the case. 2) He completely absolves Djoref for absolutely no reason. Townies do not throw around suspicions only to insta-drop them. 3) The other supporting arguments I've shown above. debears is SCUM! ##vote debears Note the use of red in this whole thing is to clarify what I’m refuting. Inconsistency 1 1) My “want to win”, use the coaches pm has mainly townie motivation. Why wouldn't I tell everyone to PM their coaches after last game? Hapapauli specifically mentioned how Thrawn was the only one actually getting help from him. There can be some mafia WIFOM argument, but that is assuming more than the fact I want to win and the obvious townie motivation for it. 2) Next, you say that I don’t attack DarthPunk. While I never attacked DarthPunk (he had good reasoning for suspecting kush), I did tell him to cool his jets and stop trying to convince others to his argument so early in the game, especially since kush was afk at the moment darth attacked kush. Now, because of his early hardcore tunnel, we are in a situation where the lynch is one sided. That doesn’t do really any good for us unless he is mafia. If he turns town, we gave the mafia a veil to hide under. Another townie side Z-Boson failed to address. 3) From a townie perspective, I wanted more information on kush, and I wanted to spread out some focus on other people early on to avoid a one sided lynch for the reasons in 2), hence the posts directed at Djo and Z-Boson early on. 4) Then, your points about me being defensive at kush were not defenses of kush’s actions. They were attempts to tell darth to chill out and subdue some of his power trip, which I said in both quotes that you post in that section. 5) When you say a townie with a FOS will want to deal with arguments first, that is true. However, kush was afk at the moment and darth was hammering him without kush able to defend himself at a very early point in time in the game. As stated above, look at the situation we are in now if kush flips town. Inconsistency 2 1) If you looked at my posts after my “PM marv for help” post, I believe corrosion instantly assumed that I confirmed him town. That is not true at all. Notice A) Djo is a noob and B) I said COACHES. The word townie was never said in the sentence. You guys are putting words in my mouth. Also, note how in one of Djo’s prior posts, he says he was going to go look at guides. I don’t understand why you guys are so eager to jump on someone trying to help a newbie. Yet again, townie motivation: If Djo is town, it will greatly help us if he gets help. Even if he isn't, it will raise the quality of this NEWBIE game and help us all improve if he gets help. Ending 1) I want to quote something from Bosons post. “Note that I no longer think that his defense of SDM is scummy. I've gone over that a few times and I admit that it can also come from a townie perspective.” By his logic, that does not factor into my case. Also, how do the other two reasons in your post not have a townie perspective/motivation? 2) The list of 1,2,3 Boson made at the bottom. If I read the post correctly, the only other argument is that my cases against Djo and Z-Bo early one were a "scum recipe". To that, I say duh. Semi-active lurker is a place where mafia can hide to look like they are contributing without actually doing so. I noticed this last game with JacobStrangeLove. I also read some guides that state that. Why wouldn't I call you out early when there's not much to go on? Now for z-bos next post right after the post in which he attacked me (5 min after to be exact): + Show Spoiler + On September 29 2012 05:34 Z-BosoN wrote: I'm not against a kush lynch atm, but from what I gather kush's case is mostly meta-based with a side dish of not-scumhunting and also general scummy-looking posts. I think my evidence against debear is much more damning. Please read carefully his posts and my case and see if you don't agree. So he bashs me for “defending kush” (according to himself) and then infers that the evidence against kush isn’t the greatest. That’s not very consistent. On September 29 2012 05:55 Z-BosoN wrote: But oh they can. Scum can't genuinely scumhunt, and will usually make mistakes in doing so. This early in the game, debears has managed to quickly change his mind about pursuing scum not once, but twice. Him just forgetting all about Djoref and basically assuming him to be town was just ??SDFG ?A?SDF?A?SDF?. His inconsistencies to me look more scummy then townie, especially when looking at how repetitive his arguments are. Who do you think is a better lynch then, kush? Grace us with a case. I would like to know how I changed my mind twice on scumhunting. Just because someone looks scummy, we don’t need to bash their heads in with the same evidence over and over and over again. In kush’s case, Darth had gone overboard and was sufficiently bashing in kush’s head by himself. What’s the point in me picking up a club and going after him when he was afk? In Djo’s case, I called him out for the quality of his posting. He is a newbie. I decided it was best to not attack him and let him actually get into the game. As I said, I don’t read too much into early posts. Also, the reason why I “changed my mind” is that Z-boson was becoming a scum read to me. His OMGUS FOS set off alarms in my head. His posts since then are picking out only the mafia motivations or stating the townie motivations and instantly discarding them. It is hard to split my focus on 3 people at a time, so I’d rather worry about Z-Bo and Kush than chase a newbie around. Alright on to another post + Show Spoiler + QUOTE]On September 29 2012 06:41 Z-BosoN wrote: kush this "act" you are playing is not helping you, and is not helping town. Man the fuck up and make cases against people, try to defend yourself. I'd much rather lynch debears because I find the arguments against him to be much more substantial than the ones against you, which are mostly meta-based. I disagree with a meta-based lynch when I've provided real arguments against someone else (which, incidentally you shat on. It seems like you actually want to get lynched) If you are town that is. If you are scum, go ahead and keep moaning, I'll gladly choose you over debears. Yet again, he doesn’t like the case against kush, yet one of the main parts of his scumread on me was that I defended kush. + Show Spoiler + On September 29 2012 10:28 Z-BosoN wrote: READ An interesting snippet from the op: So, read my exchange with him. I try a billion times to help him, and what does he do? Choose to mock me case and be insulting. That's not playing to win if he's town. His sudden change of attitude probably came from a mod-warning, due to what I've quoted, and I'll assume this to be true. Now I have two train of thoughts that I'm killing myself over: 1) Lynch him. He's bad to have in the endgame and is a detriment to the town, no matter his alignment. His change of attitude might have come from his scummy friends, because I sure as hell couldn't sway him. 2) Assume he is a townie. Why can we do that? Because I am almost certain that his change of attitude came from a mod-warning. If he was mafia he wouldn't have gotten a mod-warning, because his play could have very well been some schematics or whatever. However, there is no town-motivation for his play whatsoever, and the way he mocked me is a completely infant behavior that does not go with a "play-to-win" scenario. However... There is one instance where he could have gotten a mod-warning as mafia. Observe this post: If debears is indeed mafia, he would have gotten a mod-warning for basically giving in his teammate. This makes a lot of sense, if we can assume he got a mod-warning. And SO I propose.... We lynch him. If I am correct in my assessment and he flips scum, then debears is most likely also scum and kush managed to ruin the game. If he flips town, then we are down someone who will be a detriment to the town, so I'm confident he is a good lynch for us right now. This post…..Not only is it an association case, it’s an association case BASED ON MOD WARNINGS and assuming a mod warning off one random post of kush’s, especially when that post references the scum team that I was on with kush in the last game… Boson is going out of his way to pin me as scum, especially before kush even flips….I don’t get this. Next post, + Show Spoiler + On September 29 2012 11:03 Z-BosoN wrote: That only adds to the fact that I already have a strong scumread of you. Whatever his alignment, I'm pushing for you next. So he says two things here. 1) That the post he quoted “added” to his scumread. Then he makes NO MENTION of why it does. 2) He specifically states that he is going for me no matter the outcome. Why has he already done this without seeing the flip? Seems like he knows kush’s alignment and doesn’t have to consider what is going on here today… Next post On September 29 2012 11:32 Z-BosoN wrote: DP, did you read my exchange with him? It's pointless discussing with him. I think it would be more productive if you would read my case on debears and see if you agree with it. I don’t understand why Boson is lobbying his case against me still. It is a weak case based on mafia assumptions only. I hate this kind of play. If your case is good, people will believe it and vote for it. He is trying so hard to have his notions confirmed. Final part of this (thank god) On September 29 2012 14:12 Z-BosoN wrote: They are probably just echoing the suspicion I posted earlier, concerning my assumption on mods. It's a theory I have in case he pops scum. Don't treat it as an argument. Treat my case as an argument. Everyone who’s experience knows association cases are dumb without a flip unless it’s late game. You are making an early game association case and you make a huge post about it. How is that not an argument? Now you have everyone saying “debears is likely scum”. FOS Z-Boson If kush did not implode this game, I would be voting for Z-Boson right now. | ||
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debears
United States2516 Posts
On September 29 2012 16:26 Djodref wrote: [/list][/list]@debears so let me reformulate my question so we can understand each other better this time What is your read about me so far ? [*]town [*]null [*]scum You can use quantitative adjectives  null right now. Just was working on Boson. Will look into you more though  | ||
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debears
United States2516 Posts
I'm gonna try to do this from my phone. EXCEPT THAT YOU HAD A FOS ON HIM!!!! Do you know what it means to be suspicious of someone? You don't follow up a case you've made against someone with: "look for coaches", they help town a lot!! You didn't say explicitly that you thought him town, but you absolutely ignore your previous post on him only to never mention it again. This reeks of an empty case, you know, the ones that mafia are forced to make. When did i have a FOS against djo? You put this under the section against djo. Another thing i want to address is your assumption that early d1 posts and cases carry a lot of weight. They don't.my cases against you and djo were based on the suspiciousness of your posts. They weren't full on you're scum in depth cases. Besides, people change their minds a bit on d1. The next thing i want to address is your assumption on the weight and meaning of a fos. To me, a fos is a heads up that Im suspicious of you qnd ill be watching. It doesnt necessarily mean I'm gonna make a huge case on you. Finally, i want to address your assumptions of what townies do d1. As a townie, i have no idea who is what. Its confusing as hell. Why wouldnt i change my mind and explore more than kush d1. There are more than 1 scum. How am i supposed to know whether darth himself is scum trying to push an easy target (i will expand more on this tonight when i am at my computer) or whether he is a townie truly overconfident in his belief about kush being scum. A good case doesnt necessarily mean someone is town. Look at my case against thrawn last game. Finally, why does everyone seem so damn confident in their reads? Especially on day 1? | ||
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debears
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debears
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Alsn and Corrosion are your other two im betting. I'm making a case on both, with corrosion first. | ||
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debears
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My second case that I mentioned last night was going to be SDM, for his meta this game is way off from last game in terms of activity. However, his posts are solid so far. Thus, I'm not gonna waste my time when there are others that need to be addressed. @Boson When looking for scum after the lynch of kush, my main targets are people who voted after it was clear that he was doomed. Also, I look at who doubted the reasoning for kush's lynch before he became doomed and then suddenly switched after he was doomed. All 4 of those lurkers fall into the category of voting for him after it was clear he would be lynched. Another person to add to this list is Alsn (who I will address later). By my count, the voting happened in this order 1)DP(cancel later) 2)Stutters 3)SDM 4)Z-Boson 5)Me 6)Omniscient 7)DP 8)RemedySC 9)Djodret 10)Corrosion 11)Alsn In terms of the 4 lurkers you wanted me to look at, I believe Corrosion would be the most likely scum. 1) Remedy's posting has been better than last games. I don't see anything eye popping 2) Djodref - He is wish washy with his convictions and seems easily persuaded. However, his case against corrosion seems to bear weight Those two are null reads for me atm. Now for the second two. Both come off as scummy. 3) Omniscient - His first big post A summary of the kush saga, no in depth analysis, he's a "little suspicious" The next post about kush Yet again, hasn't really stated a strong position. His only posts in terms of cases are about kush, yet doesn't really make a real read. Finally, the vote post On September 29 2012 09:44 Omniscient4983 wrote: Woosh, I get back from a little dinner and find Kush complaining about 2 votes and giving up on the world. From a gameplay perspective, I don't feel the whining is conveying any sort of innocence. The dramatization / apologizing is being overplayed. As debears put it, Kush is either: ##Vote: Kush He quickly turned from not being sure to voting based on my reasoning, although he is suspicious of me at this point, as shown by this post On September 29 2012 11:48 Omniscient4983 wrote: @Kush I found Z-BosoN's case to bear much validity, actually. It confirmed the suspicions I had when debears instantly assumed djodref was a townie. How was his case so, erm, "try harded"? After the lynch, his posts go off a little bit. + Show Spoiler + On September 30 2012 06:27 Omniscient4983 wrote: I agree we should take the focus off of Debears, as Z-BosoN did a fair job of outlining the points against him. But why Corrosion? I realize he opposed the fact that Darth was so heavily attacking Kush, but I don't think he was casting him in a "scummy shadow". His case against Darth was based on nothing, really; just the fact that he thought pursuing the scum-slip and ignoring everyone else was a poor idea. I don't read Corrosion as scum at all. And Debears in no way looks more genuine than him. For someone suspicious of me, I do find it odd that you suddenly want to shift focus off me. Also, your defense of corrosion was odd. His posts have been scummy (bear with me on this one I am addressing Corrosion after omniscient). This next post is the first actual, original case I've seen him post I feel as though he didn't sufficiently read Remedy's arguments, which were decent. I'm not sure if Omniscient realized this but corrosion was making a case on darth, the primary attacker of kush. By refuting Corrosion's argument about DP, Remedy was actually helping the case against kush. He seems to understand what remedy was saying. Overall, this isn't a strong case. For that reason I'm going to wait for more posts from Omniscient. Corrosion, on the other hand, has stronger evidence piling up. First, his call out of remedy early in the game was unwarranted He wants Remedy to post more and tell him about Remedy's reads. However, he had not posted any reads of his own at this point. It's contradicting. Something that can make him look like he's contributing. Now, on to him post about Darth This post really raised my eyes looking back at it. First, he mentions darth's "everybody stop leaving after your intro" post. He doesn't see reason although the reason is clear at that moment: everyone was doing that. Next, he brings up about why darth brought up darth's past games. It was pretty easy to see at that point that I asked darth for that information. This indicates to me that he(corrosion) wasn't reading the thread. He was most likely skimming. At all stages in the game, a townie must be reading and rereading the thread, since a townie has no extra information and townies have to catch the mafia. Mafia, on the other hand, don't have to do the same. They can get away with skimming since they just need to keep the town distracted. Now, I'm going to pull out the phrase with red I'm not saying that I'm sure the scum slip is an actual slip, but if it is and it results in a succesful lynch, I think town got very lucky. Scum usually wouldn't slip in such an obvious manner. Notice the wording, "I think town got lucky". Not we, the town. He seems to be excluding himself from us. Not strong at all in itself, but something to notice. If he thinks that town would be lucky if kush flipped red, then it is sensible to assume that he thinks kush is town. Next post, + Show Spoiler + On September 29 2012 07:17 corrosion wrote: You're not seeing my points in the proper context. Now maybe you think my analysis is weak. I can understand that view. I haven't played in one of these before, so I'm not really good at seeing the difference between weak arguments and strong arguments. Some of the other posters in the thread encouraged new players to post, but maybe I should have waited awhile and tried to build a really solid case. I haven't made up mind yet, so I'll be voting tomorrow. I'm thinking Kush, but I'll browse the latest developments tomorrow and see if anything has changed by then. So he thinks kush will most likely be town, yet he is thinking about voting for him? That's not sensible. So, the one whom he thought would be a "lucky" scum flip is now his biggest scum read? In my eyes, this sudden flip can be easily explained if he is mafia. At this point, he is the second to last person to vote for kush. Kush is doomed. If he is mafia, he realizes there is no reason and should hop on the bandwagon. Notice that his reasoning is poor in previous posts. He never had a strong indication of kush as mafia. Furthermore, I want to point out that his only case at this point was kush. He had not done any scumhunting up to this point besides a one liner saying that I confirmed Djordref as town. You can say it's scumhunting but one line =/= a case. Hist next post is a response to Z-Boson. His responses are in the red (it's how he formatted it in his original post). + Show Spoiler + On September 29 2012 18:43 corrosion wrote: Adressing your issues: + Show Spoiler + 3) You are just rambling here, I think. I take the DP/kush exchange as being genuine, unless they are both scum and agreed to flaming each other. I don't think thta's likely, due to kush's fiery meta. The first paragraph was a mistake by me, explained in my previous post. The intention of the second paragraph, was to try to get some feedback from other posters. Right now, I don't think the case is strong at all so I actually think people should focus more on their own reads and trying to find the best lynching candidate. 4) I don't get the reasoning behind this post. You are trying to make a case on DP, and concluded that you don't feel like it and actually think that kush is a better lynch? Also, stutters has made a case on him. Why not reference that? I wasn't as much trying to make a case as just referencing my findings. I was trying the approach of focusing on one player (suggested in one of the guides). I figured that someone else was going to post a case on Kush, so I tried to focus on a player that noone else was pressuring much. I'll admit that my attempt seems to have failed quite a bit. The reason that I didn't reference Stutters, was that he made his case 7 minutes before I posted. I did not check the thread for new posts before I posted. This post is another one that makes me scratch my head. He has a vote on kush, who he doesn't think will flip scum, and a case on DP. He drops the case on DP, now calling it a "reference" and stating that he "wasn't trying to make a case". Here, he finally states his reasoning for voting kush. Notice the timestamp. Way after his vote On September 29 2012 21:59 corrosion wrote: Let me just state the reasons that my vote is on Kush right now: 1) I think his explanation of the slip was poor. If he had given a good explanation, I might have believed him. 2) I've been thinking about who would benefit if the result is a no-lynch. I'm thinking mafia is likely to benefit the most from a no-lynch. Right now, I think that there's more than a 25 % chance that Kush is scum. Therefore, I'm voting for him. I'm not sure if any of these points are original. I'm having trouble keeping up with the thread, because I tend to get hanged up in details. His point 1) Notice the timestamp of his vote post. Now, look at the timestamp of kush's explanation + Show Spoiler + On September 28 2012 20:12 kushm4sta wrote: Sup have to make this post real quick. Will read everything and post on my phone late.r 1. Why are you putting my name in red like darth? it seems like you are subliminally trying to influence people to your cause. This is a game of logic not advertising. 2. My supposed scumslip: huh? What else should I have called you? Player? Person? Maybe but to me those things sound awkward. Townie just seemed like the most non awkward word to use. Innocent until proven guilty. That's how we do it in America bro. Corrosion's vote came way after the explanation. He had made no mention about disliking the explanation even through his vote post. The only time he brings it up is way after the vote post when he decides to suddenly explain the reasoning for his vote On pt 2) What did the no lynch have to do with his vote on kush? A no lynch was not even in the discussion. At this point, there were 2 good candidates for lynching. Me and Kush. This is all way too odd to ignore. And finally, the last post I will look at + Show Spoiler + On September 30 2012 05:16 corrosion wrote: I considered the possibility of both being scum early on but if both were scum, I see no reason whatsoever for Kush's scumslip. So I'm now saying that Darth is close to being confirmed town. This is something town should keep in mind during N1 and D2. It would be a spectacular bus if they did this on purpose. The only reason I can see for doing that, would be if Kush had slipped earlier in the thread. I do not think so but if someone wants to look into it, go ahead. I'm not going to spend my time on that. So he still has some suspicions in regard to DP, whom he was suspicious of d1. Yet, he says that some one else can check it out. He seems to not care about scumhunting and following his leads. He is not exhibiting townie behavior. If the town should keep it in mind, why isn't he researching it to help our cause? Overall, I could see Corrosion as scum. He follows the trend of what I look for. He doubted the case on kush (even tried a case against DP) but then suddenly switched to kush with no reasoning until later. His actions mostly have mafia motivations (unless I'm mistaken). Phew. Will have Alsn's case up most likely tomorrow. These take forever. | ||
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debears
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debears
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Read my posts. The second case I had planned was against SDM. However, SDM's posts have been well thought out with good reasoning. It would be useless and stupid to post a case based only on meta from last game. @Darth Seeing as the main part of the case against me is my "soft defend of kush" (actually telling you to chill out on it), I would like to explain my reasoning for telling you so d1. I asked for your previous games to examine your meta. A few things stuck out on me. On September 28 2012 11:41 DarthPunk wrote: My previous games. NMM XXII Godfather NMM XXIV Cop TL Mafia LVII Roleblocker NMM XXII - Godfather Here you gave an early FOS against Mordanis as godfather From that point on, you tunnel him pretty hard (you threw out some other accusations but nothing big) Here you send a vote for Mordanis, the first vote on him. I found it similar to the pattern with kush at the time. NMM LVII - Roleblocker In this game, you jump on Mattchew early. Pretty much all your posts revolve around him You weren't anywhere near voting him first, but your early tunnel of him was alarming. This one wasn't as similar, but still made me a little wary to trust you. However, 2 things made me think you could also be town. In your two mafia games, you hardly used red text. (I think once per game both games only on one word). In your game as cop, you used the red text a bit more than you did as mafia. One post had a bit of red around pg 4 of your filter. Also, your post quality in this game was an improvement over your other games as mafia. Thus, I was confused for most of day 1 about you. I wasn't willing to condemn kush based on how you attacked him. However, once kush imploded, it became apparent to me that he was, at the very least, a lost cause, at most scum. | ||
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debears
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If you would actually read through my posts, most of your questions are answered. There are 3 parts that are inherently wrong because you aren't reading my posts. Instead, you feel like accusing me about points that I have already addressed. Wrong 1) The second case thing Wrong 2) Why the pm marv post. "1) If you looked at my posts after my “PM marv for help” post, I believe corrosion instantly assumed that I confirmed him town. That is not true at all. Notice A) Djo is a noob and B) I said COACHES. The word townie was never said in the sentence. You guys are putting words in my mouth. Also, note how in one of Djo’s prior posts, he says he was going to go look at guides. I don’t understand why you guys are so eager to jump on someone trying to help a newbie. Yet again, townie motivation: If Djo is town, it will greatly help us if he gets help. Even if he isn't, it will raise the quality of this NEWBIE game and help us all improve if he gets help." 3) "He doesn't want to give a clear answer on his read about me. What does it mean that I'm sheeping onto cases ? I think it was too dangerous for him to pronounce himself about my alignment due to his previous slip. I asked him why he directed me to marv and answer by a question because he cannot afford to be transparent on this subject." I gave a clear answer on you On September 30 2012 00:06 debears wrote: [/list][/list]null right now. Just was working on Boson. Will look into you more though Sheeping means you jump on cases without making your own reasons. I have been pretty straightforward on answering these questions. Alright, now for an interesting point that you brought up. "He denies it right away and gives a town motivation for his post. But then he starts talking about lurkers. I think lurkers and newbies are two different things and he was trying to divert everybody with this line." Ask Remedy about this. On September 28 2012 06:40 RemedySC wrote: Hey, About me This is my second newbie game. In the first game I had a good read on Kush, but I didn't post enough, or have the amount of content needed in a post to get him lynched. This time though, if I have a good read that some one is scum, they are going down. Lurker Policy Well, like in the previous game, I think that a pure lurker lynch policy will end up hurting town and benefiting mafia as the game progresses. If we have no reasonable scum lead by the end of the day, then I think town hasn't been trying hard enough. So think fucking positive, we will find them! Last game, he lurked and got the axe for it. He says he had a case but couldn't get the content he needed. Hapa said only thrawn got help from him last game. So, if guys like remedy had gotten help last game, what could the difference have been? The same applies for this game. Anyone who is a nooby should get help. It increases the quality of the game and allows everyone to have an actual read on you. | ||
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debears
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On October 01 2012 02:09 Djodref wrote: @debears Well I would disagree about sheeping. Nobody so far has pointed out the defense you got from kush and the posts where he implies that you are his scumbuddy. So why do you think kush was defending you ? @everyone Before going to bed, I would like to state that my guess for the scumteam is now debears/alsn. I think Z-BosoN has the right of it. I'm asking for a vig shot on debears ! Also Remedy is too much of a lurker. I don't think we are going to encounter lylo or mylo situations in this game but I hope that we can get something of him before this... You have been sheeping. Look at SDM's case on you On September 30 2012 22:03 Sonic Death Monkey wrote: And to clarify a couple of things about my case on Djo now that I'm up to date on the thread: 1. Latching on to others reads: As newbie scum it's really hard to make original cases. I had first hand experience Cubu and Imcasey in XXVI. The only case Imcasey could make was against our scum buddy Xatalos (that's quite easy because he knew he was scum). We had a similar situation with Debears in XXVII, at least in the beginning where the only case he could make was a defense of Thrawn, which is easy to do because he knew knew he was town (well, he flipped SK, but Debears couldn't know). 2. How can anyone buy into Kush's defense that easily? A newbie town is usually very suspcicious and it was a really silly defense, at the very best null. Using "player" and "people" sounds awkward? How isn't that an obvious lie? + Show Spoiler + On September 28 2012 20:12 kushm4sta wrote: 2. My supposed scumslip: huh? What else should I have called you? Player? Person? Maybe but to me those things sound awkward. Townie just seemed like the most non awkward word to use. Innocent until proven guilty. That's how we do it in America bro. As for the other lurkers, I don't find Remedy suspicious, rather the opposite although his post count is still low. Nothing really stuck out to me the same way Djo did when reading Omn's and Corrosion's filter. Also, the reason why no one is addressing kush's "scum for life" and "I saved you" posts to me is because the argument is pure WIFOM. Kush was scum. For that reason, we have to look at scum motivations 1) He was giving away his partner and throwing the game away. I believe he didn't give up on the game since he was mafia. Otherwise, he would most likely be punished for his actions in the game. Also, he is experienced. He isn't a dumb noob that would give up. He was willing to take the sack as scum last game when people started reading him as scum (although it never came to that). 2) He was attempting to set up someone who had "soft defended" him so that it would lead to a mislynch the next day.This point can be easily turned into WIFOM. Why would you believe the words of a confirmed scum? The purpose of mafia is to disrupt the the town and turn townies against each other. Number two fulfills that purpose. | ||
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debears
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On September 22 2012 06:53 Alsn wrote: I think it's high time to try and get myself NK'd again. /in Alsn's first post before the game. Everyone, if you do not know the depth of Alsn's focus and intelligence (or at least what it seems like to me) and stubborness, look at his posts from pregame and the obs qt from last game. If he was town, I would be sure that he would put his skills to work and actually attempt to be nked. Alright, on to the posts since the start of the game. + Show Spoiler + On September 28 2012 17:56 Alsn wrote: Wow, upon reading the thread I realise that kush has been following the exact pattern I just now specified to be the way not to play if he wanted to absolve himself in my eyes. In fact, I could go back to my initial posts to him in NMMXXV saying almost the exact same thing. As such, I think I have no choice but to cast a: FoS kushm4sta kush, in order for me to let up, I want you to stop it with your ridiculous knee-jerk play and actually point out why you think other people are scummy as opposed to why you yourself is so obviously town. While the following idiom is quite ironic in a forum game, actions speak louder than words and you defending yourself is just that, meaningless words. Start proving to everyone that you are concerned with finding scum instead of worrying about your silly streak. That being said, I think everyone else is jumping the gun here, kush is an extremely easy target to pick on, especially since he almost never seems to think before he posts. The scumslip that Darth and others pointed out can definitely be seen as damning. However, I am not inclined to agree with the following post from Darth: This last part seems to overly simplify the matter to me. The only reason? I myself can see a few reasons, but I would like kush to reply himself before I comment further as I don't want to give him an easy out. I can state for the record that unless kush shapes up considerably, I'm all in favour of lynching him. Simply because him playing like his normal self would be a liability for town later on due to his inclination to just defend himself over hunting scum. However, I definitely want to give him the benefit of the doubt and allow him to actually try and show that he has town's best interest in mind. So until then, while I definitely would like everyone to share their reads on kush so far, that is not enough for D1. We need to start exploring different possibilities because if we decide to lynch kush and he flips green, spending all of D1 talking about him will put us back at square one minus two townies. I'll make another post within an hour or two on another topic as I think I've made myself perfectly clear on where I stand on kush, but right now I need breakfast. His point is fair and I agreed upon it. Everyone focusing on one person day 1 is usually not good. However, his later actions did not really follow this statement. His cases against Z-Bo and DP were the only scumhunting during d1. His initial problem with Z-Bo was a point already addressed by me in terms of the post at SDM. This post in itself isn't a big deal. However, he continues to keep the argument the same and becomes stuck on the idea. + Show Spoiler + On September 28 2012 21:31 Alsn wrote: Uh, what? For what? I admit I haven't looked all that closely on debears posting since I mostly looked at his filter to try and figure out what Z-BosoN was referring to, but as far as I can see he has done three things so far, he has pointed out that he doesn't agree with your tunneling of kush. I find that a reasonable thing to say, although not overwhelmingly useful other than as a reminder to you that there are other players in this game(which you have obviously noted by now since you are questioning me!) His other two arguments of note are against Z-BosoN which is basically the conversation line which I base my case upon, as well as calling out Djodref as someone who posts a lot but says little. The latter also seems perfectly reasonable from where I'm standing and as you must have noticed, I'm against Z-BosoN on the subject of the former. This post was addressed to DP. Yet again, you are really just repeating points and just agreeing with my views on the matter and defending me. + Show Spoiler + On September 29 2012 00:24 Alsn wrote: Given the evidence so far no, I don't, and frankly I don't see why that's so hard to believe. Given his history, it should be easy to see for anyone that while he has different town and scum metas(as pointed out by Hapahauli in the obs QT of NMMXVII), his comments so far this game is entirely in line with the way he usually posts during D1. Basically just writing up whatever is on his mind. That to me doesn't really increase or decrease the chances of him flipping either way(but the setup of the game says all else being equal, 75% of the players are green, 25% are scum) Yes, you called him out for good reason because his arguments(like so many times before this game) make little to no sense. But right now the only thing I really agree actually points to him being scum is what you call his scum slip. I just do not agree with you of just how damning that statement is. The first thing that sprang to mind when I saw you quoting that was simply that townie was an odd word to use, why not use player? But a confirmed scum slip? Come on, it's not like he said something that is entirely outside the realm of possibility for a town player to say. "Townie" wouldn't be the word I'd use, but I just can't see it as that obvious a scum slip. I'll accept that you are not necessarily wrong for thinking so however. Given that there are no other developments then sure, I'll admit that there's at least a higher chance of kush being scum than a random lurker being scum. But I would really like it if we could at least try to get better odds than that. Best case scenario for me would be actually having everyone talk, present cases and opinions and if no one else presents themselves as scummy, then and only then will I roll the dice on kush. Remember, there are 3 scum, not only one. Who knows, if he's scum as you say, he might look even scummier by lynch time. The case being what it is with kush, I can see now that what you were doing wasn't tunneling per se. However, I think you are doing the very thing you are accusing me of doing where you say debears was trying to "shut down" the case against kush. Like I've said several times now, that's not at all how I interpreted it, only that we shouldn't limit ourselves to a single discussion topic which at the time I felt debears was trying to suggest. Something that I happen to agree with. This statement makes little sense to me. You say you were not tunneling, which I can now appreciate as probably true, but up until recently was not clear at all to me(and probably not to anyone else either). You had made quite a lot of posts in a row with kush as the only topic, as well as trying to convince others in the thread that he absolutely, 100%, no doubt whatsoever must be scum. I didn't find it unreasonable that someone would point that fact out to you. My "premise" was simply that if I find an argument reasonable, someone else trying to poke holes in that argument might not have the same motivations as myself, thus they are suspicious. The bolded line is ridiculous however, especially in context with the sentence before it. What makes you so sure that we would have "a lot of info to go off" in the case of everyone tunneling kush and us lynching him? My A) vs. B) scenario that you are referring to was dependent on the hypothetical scenario of everyone tunneling kush(which I already explained seemed to be where things were going at the time). I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and say that you misunderstood what I was trying to say instead of deliberately using a red herring to try and discredit me. With that in mind, based on your willingness to put yourself out there, I have a slight town read on you. Looking at this post, let's keep in mind what Alsn has done at this point. He has defended me. He has defended Kush, playing off scumslip. His only scumhunt cases are against darth and z-bo. His case against darth is based off darth's hard tunneling of kush. His case on z-bo is Z-bo's post on SDM and Z-Bo's post on me. Also, look at how he brings up "Everyone bring up a case and we'll look for other scummy people". Yet, he has failed to actually do the same. He now thinks Darth is town by suddenly changing his mind on the tunneling issue, even though he believes tunneling isn't good. " I would like you to explain what's so amazingly pro-town about tunneling kush from the very beginning. I find the risks of that approach to be very high from a town perspective." Now, I would like to move on to another topic with Alsn. He promises scumhunting and big posts. He wants everyone to make good cases about people other than kush. Yet, he doesn't actually follow through. + Show Spoiler + On September 29 2012 17:40 Alsn wrote: Just now caught up and saw this post. Really? I Said I'd be back about 12 hours before lynch, I've been reading the thread for an hour which makes that statement pretty much exactly right. But your own comment on the other hand is from before I even said I'd be waking up and checking the thread. You are not making yourself look any better than when I first called you out for grasping at straws. Will be posting some pretty substantial posts(I suspect, based on what I've read so far) within the next couple of hours. Here, he promises substantial posts. These are the next three posts. + Show Spoiler + On September 29 2012 18:17 Alsn wrote: First, I'd like to start things with stating so far D1 has pretty much lived up to my exact nightmare scenario that I speculated about when arguing with DP yesterday. Everyone is voting kush with only very little discussion about any other topic(mainly, the debears-boson exchange). Looking at the vote count, the last official count says 7, and now corrosion added his vote for a total of 8. With myself that would be 9, the exact number of town in this game. From my point of view, unless kushm4sta, Djodref and Lesrah are the 3 scum, there are scum pushing this lynch. Given that, I'm really starting to dislike this lynch. I agree however that kush has been mostly concerned with defending himself against perceived injustice rather than actually trying to hunt scum, this still does not convince me that he is scum. Lynching scum with an overwhelming majority D1 just seems like way too improbably. Sure, if we had to fight tooth and nail to get 7 votes, I might buy it, but that's not the case. It seems to me there must be scum sheeping onto this lynch. Like I've stated before I can go along with the kush lynch, but I'd rather try and lynch my top scum read at this point and with the current developments, I see a kush lynch more as a last resort than my main scum read. Unfortunately, this argument is only available to people who have yet to vote and are town, as well as to scum since other than myself only scum are aware of my alignment. For everyone else, the "unless a, b and c are scum" argument will include me. My argument is at least enough to convince myself, so I'll be scouring the thread for the next couple of hours to see if my "gut scum reads" so far have any merit and if so push that/those case(s) instead. If it turns out that they are going nowhere, I will vote kush. But I still feel we have enough time to at least have a discussion on the topic of "just wtf is going on here?!". This post is odd. His main points are 1)There are scum voting for kush (duh) 2) He doesn't like the kush lynch and 3) He is going to try to lynch his top scum read and "scour the thread" for others. There is nothing of substance in this post. He's just stating the obvious and promising more scumhunting. + Show Spoiler + On September 29 2012 18:28 Alsn wrote: A quick addendum, I'm aware that scum pushing the lynch does not exonerate kush since they could be bussing him. However, given the assumption that kush is scum and there are active scum among the voters, I just find it more likely that they would try and find another solution than bussing, especially since it's D1. That's my main reason for not being convinced that kush is scum. The next post is nothing better. Nothing substantial. Just speculation on what the scum would do. + Show Spoiler + On September 29 2012 18:29 Alsn wrote: Right, I missed that, thanks for pointing it out. That just confirms it though, from my point of view there are scum pushing for his lynch. For everyone else out there, unless me, Lesrah and kush are the scumteam, there are scum among the voters. Yet again, he's repeating his points. Nothing substantial. His promise of something was not kept. Still no actual scumhunting. On September 29 2012 20:02 Alsn wrote: EBWOP again: Just realized it, WIFOM what? How the hell is my analysis of the vote numbers WIFOM. It's logical that from the point of view of a townie that has voted, the only way kush is scum, is if me and Lesrah are scum too. It's simple math. Given that I have more information than all the townies that have voted so far(I know my own alignment), I can of course conclude that there must be scum that voted for kush, regardless if kush is scum or not. So could Lesrah if he turns out to be town(but as things are looking now, he will probably be replaced/modkilled so he wouldn't participate in this lynch regardless). Do you even know what WIFOM is? I did not arbitrarily keep arguing back and forth, I made a logical conclusion from the information available. Ok. This post just repeats his earlier points. Now comes his change of opinion + Show Spoiler + On September 29 2012 21:15 Alsn wrote: I've been doing some soul searching and I'm starting to agree that it's not worth it to try and push any other cases right now. Mostly because my entire premise was that I was thinking it to be unlikely for kush to be scum. I realise that after trying to put into words why I think that is so, I have nothing other than the fact that I "feel" him to be town, which is a really stupid reason for absolving him. I thought I could back it up by saying he's been pressured to hard, there's no way he's responsible for not scum hunting. But in the end, I can't find a logical reason to forgive him if I exclude my own gut feeling from the equation. I think now that my best option is to hold on to whatever small reads I have(because while I have some suspicions, I don't think they are rock solid) until after the lynch is over. Because at least then, we will have more information. So for now, although my gut is screaming at me, I'll commit to voting for kush, mostly because most of what I said about BosoN has returned somewhat satisfactory answers, I really don't like the way a lot of people got away with not basically posting anything at all(I'm looking at you, Djodref, corrosion, Omniscient, RemedySC). I think that's probably what irks me the most, the thing I was most hoping would not happen, did happen. ##Vote: kushm4sta Ok a "change of heart" changes his views on kush and scumhunting. I can understand changing his view on kush. However, he had been adamant that people push cases on people other than kush all day. Yet, it wasn't worth it anymore. Then, he says in the same post he doesn't like how those 4 got away with not posting? Why didn't he call them out if he wanted to scumhunt so bad? Why is he leaving the job up to others and just calling out people he wants to be looked at? + Show Spoiler + On September 29 2012 21:28 Alsn wrote: By the way, just to clarify about my vote. I realised that my entire vote count argument falls apart if there's no compelling reason to believe kush to be town, and asking myself the following question kinda shocked me: "What has kush done for town?" I couldn't find an answer to that question, no matter how hard I looked. As such, I can't not vote for him. The wording in the last statement is weird. It implies that he was looking for reasons to not vote kush. + Show Spoiler + On September 29 2012 21:31 Alsn wrote: Seriously, I need a break from this as I'm feeling indecisive as shit at the moment while I woke up brimming with confidence that I would find some scum today. I'll be checking in on the thread all the way until lynch, so I'll reply if you need me to, but I don't think I'll be making any monster posts. Here he admits he did not scumhunt. He says he is indecisive. + Show Spoiler + On September 30 2012 04:39 Alsn wrote: I actually find some of your arguments very compelling. I agree that his 180 on Djodref looks scummy, but I don't agree with your original argument that him making that case on both you and Djodref is inherently scummy just because the cases are similar. I however think that your pressuring has yielded fruit. I happen to agree that your initial feud with debears was on pretty shaky grounds, which is why I spoke out against you at that point. It may just have been me misinterpreting your tone/intentions, but nevertheless I feel most of the early-game arguments debears put forward were relatively sound, and you weren't necessarily in the right for attacking them. His responses do seem convoluted though. To be fair, I think his "scum slip"(the one where he all but proclaimed Djod town) is pretty much the exact same type of slip that kush committed. Basically, directly suggesting that he should pm marv could be seen as him knowing djod's alignment. But I think just as with the kush slip, it's definitely not 100%. It could be a typo, he could have just been lazy and not wanted to say marv/hapa, there could be many different reasons. Anything he says himself probably won't sway anyone though. I'm actually surprised there hasn't been more of an outcry about it. So to sum up, I disagree that debears is clearly wrong for saying that your initial case was weak, however, I feel like he has some pretty scummy explanations for some of his actions, particularly wrt Djodref. I think your case has gone from pretty nit picky to a rather strong case. So I think I'll withdraw my FoS on you, your explanation for your behaviour concerning SDM earlier was satisfactory, and I will probably have to go through your case against him at least one more time before I can be sure, but it seems to be pretty solid to me. I would like to see some input from the less active players with regards to the entire debears/boson debate. Because currently I'm having pretty much null reads on all of the following: Omniscient, RemedySC, Corrosion, Djodref(someone else remind me if there's anyone I've missed please). A few of them have posted slightly scummy or slightly town, but either way it's very difficult for me to make up my mind one way or the other right now. If we assume that kush wasn't trolling us with the "I'm red" part, then we have quite some time before we ever need to worry about mylo/lylo, but I'd still like for us to get there without either being forced to lynch 4 null-reading lurkers, or to have them left in the game at that stage. Here is another worthless post. His whole point is "Z-bo's case may have validity". Then he gives us some reads, except they are 4 null reads. No scum hunting. Not any actual contribution. + Show Spoiler + On September 30 2012 19:18 Alsn wrote: Now you're just misunderstanding me, I had a gut scum read on you due to me feeling unjustifiably attacked. I didn't want to say that out loud while I was questioning you at the time. But like I explained when I examined your filter as well as when you replied to me, things became much clearer and thus I re-evaluated you. Ah finally, he actually states a scum read. However, earlier he said he wanted to push a lynch for a top scum read. He didn't do that. A FOS isn't pushing a lynch. He never took a decisive "you're scum" stance day 1. Alsn's whole day 1 was centered on kush being town, and mediating the conflict between me and Z-Bo. Where was the scumhunting? Where was the real contribution that he promised? -----after just reading Alsn's big post---------- @Alsn However, 1) My posting to defend myself day 1 was because I thought (and still do) that most of Z-Boson's case is dumb and confirmation bias (which you agree with me about according to your post. 2) I chose Z-Boson because they way he FOS'd me back was OMGUS to me. Djo is a noob. Z-Boson isn't. Z-Boson would know better to first, calll out a player for no reason early on and overstate that player's views. And two, FOS me with shitty reasoning. 3) My main problem with Z-Boson is that he was looking only at mafia motivations in his post (confirmation bias if he is town, if he is scum, trying to frame someone). Also, his association case about modwarnings was flat out unreasonable and follows WIFOM. Also, he was trying way too hard to lobby his case against me. It seems the only real part of his argument that everyone agrees with is the pm marv post I addressed to Djo, which I have done my best to explain. I don't see his case as strong. Yet, he feels its the mother of all cases, calling it a "shitbomb" on me earlier. How can a townie be so sure of himself besides confirmation bias? That said, Z-Boson has made a case against you which I agree with. He came off more reasonable today with the questions he asked me. For that, I do not have such a strong stance on him at this moment. However, you seem a little bit too obsessed with our argument. Your post is in essence a giant summary of what happened. You state a scumread on me, which is improvement. However, I don't feel your scumhunting is original. Your reasoning for FOS on me is problematic. I believe I have already been called out for posting defensively. Also if "This all leads me to believe Z-BosoN is suffering from massive confirmation bias", as I stated, why wouldn't I defend myself extensively? I have been called out by Z-Bo for inconsistency. Read above this for some reasoning on choosing one over the other. And finally, you don't see my cases pointing out Z-Boson as scummy, yet you agree my cases say reasonable things? "Here he addresses debears final post, a post which like I just pointed out says reasonable things." Just because you think someone's case about someone else being scum isn't correct, if the case is reasonable, that shouldn't make you think that the accuser is scum That reasoning doesn't make sense, based on your own conclusions. | ||
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debears
United States2516 Posts
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debears
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On October 01 2012 04:59 corrosion wrote: I had a look at the cases Z-boson and Debears made against me. I thought both looked messy. I still do. Now Boson didn't jump on my post immediately, and others (Darth?)say his posting fits his town meta, so I'm going to assume that his motivation was scum hunting for now. Debears case is a huge wall of text without much actual content. I think it's suspicious. Is he trying to clutter up the thread and make chaos? I can see mafia motivation behind this. Do you mind actually reading and refuting before you accuse my cases of no content? | ||
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debears
United States2516 Posts
On October 01 2012 05:37 corrosion wrote: It was a little hasty, because I wanted to post before the night ended. I'll elaborate: There's some content in your post, but you've been making huge cases against several people without following up on them. As far as I can see, all you have achieved is to clutter up the thread. The other person that I've seen that clutters up the thread is Alsn. I've not read his last post yet, because it's tiring to read his posts. I've not read your case on him either. Right now I don't see any town motivation for your behavior. ##FoS Debears So you're saying your going to jump to conclusions before reading? Also, how is there not town motivation in making thorough cases on scum reads, especially in single posts? If you don't care to read what other people have to say, then you have a choice to not read it. It's all in one post. You can easily tell when it begins and ends and find the next post. However, if you were town, you would most likely want to read thorough cases, since they take a lot of work on the postee's side and indicate that they actually care about the game. I most definitely followed up on Boson, since our arguments have stopped on the basis of repetitiveness. You haven't refuted my case against you. Instead, you FOS me. How can I follow it up when you don't make a defense of yourself? And Alsn hasn't looked over my case either yet or posted since then. How can I follow that case up? Nice FOS. Nice reasoning behind it. | ||
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debears
United States2516 Posts
What are your thoughts on my doubts about DP day 1 in terms of his meta? Was wondering if you saw that post or not. I feel like that is the most important point to address against me atm | ||
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debears
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debears
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Here is my FOS on kush + Show Spoiler + On September 28 2012 11:05 debears wrote: Lol. Kush already going at it. Hey guys. I'm debears. This is my second game ever of mafia. I have a couple of things to add: + Show Spoiler + You also clutter the thread if you just post alot. Let me specify. Post quality as often as you can. That means reread the thread and build good cases. One liners don't do much good. Cases with multiple quotes and a few sentences of explanation per quote are good (most of the time). Also, USE YOUR COACHES TOWN. Thrawn pmed Hapa over 50 times last game and he had the best town performance. That isn't a coincidence. @Kush I don't like the way you are starting off this game kush. It's eerily similar as last game when you were mafia. You mention you're deathless streak, nk, and your scummy meta without anyone bringing it up. You should know that I most likely know you're trends better than anyone else in this game. The only difference between this game and last is that you have engaged in a flame war with Darth this game, which is unhelpful to our town. FOS Kush @everyone One more thing: Feel free to accuse and build cases on anyone you want for the first 24 hours. However, let's start tunneling for the second 24 hours. Also, I would like everyone to start considering a lurker (in your head) once we hit the second 24 hours as a backup. If we get close to the lynch deadline, and there are no scummy candidates, feel free to post a good case on which lurker would be the best candidate. Here is my very next post, which asks for your other games. On September 28 2012 11:34 debears wrote: @Darthpunk Do you have links to all your previous games? I see validity in your points. However, I need to see how you've played before. You are coming off really strong really early. and @Kush Tunneling does not mean only looking at the people under pressure. It means that we should only post cases with substance at that point. Someone going off tangent on some stupid duck hunt with no reason and distracting the attention of the town is bad at that point. If you do feel suspicious of someone but don't have a good case, just keep it on word and save it for when evidence does come out. Notice my wording. You came on too strong for me to not be suspicious of you. Your meta as scum follows a tunnel pattern. Also, since kush was following his scum meta, I also thought that if you were mafia, you could have just found an easy target for a mislynch. Also, you didn't tunnel anywhere near as hard as cop early game. Once I saw that it was clear that kush was either giving up (highly doubted it) or mafia, I then found it enough to overcome my doubts about you. Now that Kush has flipped scum, I can now say that the doubts I had about your meta are cleared. | ||
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