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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
On September 23 2012 05:25 Mementoss wrote: Actually marv had hiro as town day 1 and then for the same reasons he had hiro as town he used those reasons to make hiro scum in day 2 as hapa pointed out earlier. Yeah yeah, I know. I was being hyperbolic. I promise I know that, was questioning marv about it earlier. | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
On September 23 2012 05:28 Mementoss wrote: See last minute switch onto SnB in LVII. lol See last minute D1 switches in Bureacracy. See last minute switches in probably most other games. Foolishness had a comment on it in Bureaucracy. Even though he was scum, it was a townie point to make. It's just...it's super simple. Scum likes confusion. Scum likes being able to control town. The more craziness occurs, the more confusion and the easier you can control when town's votes are split 3-4 ways. This may not be scum-oriented, but the fact that we had such a nice D2 for MOST of the cycle, then all of a sudden EXPLOSION into craziness makes me feel like some of this is scum-pushed. | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
On July 18 2012 15:50 Foolishness wrote: Hardly. There were two non-voters (one of which is still alive) and still three people on Austin. And in the grand scheme of things everyone's vote was wasted because nobody got lynched. You can't honestly expect to sit there and pin this on me or anyone else with a "stupid" vote. I know I was gone right after the austin thing came up and didn't come back until just now. You and everyone else here knows that when the votes switch from person to person in the hours before deadline a no-lynch is the usual outcome. It's practically written in the mafia guide. And what I know is that you and sandroba were the initial force behind the austin switch. You might have not been here for the gonzaw switch initially, but juding by the voting thread you were one of the starters on the wagon back towards Blazinghand (you were the first person to vote off of gonzaw onto him). On July 19 2012 01:51 Foolishness wrote: SNIPPED It's as risk.nuke says, dumb unorganized town. Anyone who moved their vote around more than twice in the last 8 hours of the day should be held accountable. The strange thing is is that these were all people that know better than to try things like that. He was scum. risk.nuke was also scum, lol. But those thoughts felt like legitimate townie points. | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
(2) still not scum | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
On September 23 2012 06:53 iamperfection wrote: is it ok if we dont take your word for it? yes | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
On September 23 2012 06:56 iamperfection wrote: Could you explain further why you didnt just switch to palmar when you could? You said you had a scum read on both ange and palmar so why care. Even if its true that you thought ange had a better chance it should have been pretty clear that the confirmed townies [hapa and memon] were gonna have their way basically. Figured either ange or palmar would be lynchable, only saw...one town read on ange and none on palmar? So was confident that someone out of those two would end up being lynched. Between the two, preferred ange. My main concern was trying to stop further voteswitching onto hiro or marv or any other last minute target instead of the other two. | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
On September 23 2012 20:14 marvellosity wrote: On the flip side of this, austin did seem to take a somewhat active part in persuading Hapa that Palmar was being useless and that coming into the thread one time != participating/caring. So I'm entertaining the notion that austin could just be playing with pants-on-head at various points in this game rather than be scum. Not entirely sure which it is right now. Still leaning scum though. Ugh. I don't think there's any chance I'm the NK tonight after all this, but I'll try and give what I can on the Palmar stuff today. It was mainly just some nagging little feelings. One of them you referenced above. On September 23 2012 05:21 austinmcc wrote: This comes AFTER I've "mostly come around." This is the main thing that had me past that, though, and willing to vote palmar if people would have gotten off Hiro and gone back to a Palmar lynch at this point.I don't see Palmar caring. I don't see him pushing his reads. The thing I see from him that's most pushing his reads is requesting that we kill him so we'll listen. But that's not really being helpful, that's just being lazy all game and counting on you dying to make up for your lack of usefulness while alive. I was being entirely truthful with this statement, the most he had done to push his reads was to ask us to kill him. Which is fine and dandy if you've actually been giving full-throated reads. But Palmar had given little to no thought to a lot of the players in the game, afaik Zephirdd and Bluelightz don't come up much/at all (?), and to some of the remainder was still basing his reads on what had happened in the first 5 pages (iamperfection). I didn't really like the whole "kill me so you can trust my reads, which don't really exist on a lot of players, and also I'm not trying to give you guys more to work with when I die." Once he became a serious lynch candidate, even if he's town and wants us to kill him in order to trust him, he should have changed his posting. Been more informative, been as WIFOMy as he wanted because he knew he'd flip green, but throw everything into thread he could. Never did, yet was still asking us to kill him in order to verify the truthfulness on just the tiny amount of thoughts he'd given. I dunno, my comments on Palmar DO look shady. At the same time, if you read them, you hopefully see a progression of town --> unsure --> mostly coming around --> GET OFF OF HIRO AND VOTE ANGE (preferably) OR PALMAR. Don't know if that's actually townie or not, especially when I'm not explaining the changes at all/fully. And yes marv, you weren't useless. More hyperbole. But apart from talking about bluelightz and not reading when I started looking heavily at ange, one of the quotes is just you saying you weren't reading this game close enough. That wasn't time specific. I 100% think you let palmar get your goat (see your D1 OMGUS, see all the "Palmar useless again" posts) and allowed him to use you to clog thread and to be...less than fully useful. | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
On September 23 2012 22:21 marvellosity wrote: It wasn't that I wasn't reading what you had to say about Ange, it's that I was concentrating on BL at the time before moving on to something else. I'm not going to say my views/interactions Palmar have always been emotion free, because that would be silly, but you're looking at things upside down imo. Actually Palmar's accusation of me got me super-invested in this game whereas before I was not. Regularly dying night 1 and 2 gradually erodes your motivation to be invested in a game as you might like, and so having the town's gaze on me forced me to get my butt in gear. In short, Palmar's presence in this game has caused me to be more emotional than I might have been otherwise, but more importantly, more invested too. When I'm pretty sure someone is scum, I snipe at them - perhaps it's not optimal, but it's what I do. I called Zealos a total idiot when he was scum in Magic Mini when I was pursuing him, I called JingleHell a squirmy little bitch when I was pursuing him in Mad Men. I tunnel people for shit, and hey, I'm not going to apologise for it - because one thing I am good at is getting who I want lynched. When I really want someone to die, they die, whether people like how I went about it or not. True. I'm always thinking in terms of movie mini. Like, after that game, had I been you, I would be hypervigilant in the future about not OMGUSing and not being so reactionary. | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
On September 23 2012 22:20 iamperfection wrote: @ austin in light of the flip what do you think is the most likely scenario now regarding the remaining scum? I still think ange is scum, that's independent of palmar. I think the question about confirming the mason claim + not responding to that at all + seemingly lynching whether they claimed mason or not = scum in my mind. The rest is all super hypothetical, but I'll spew some nonsense. I'm assuming 3 scum no SK at this point, that's "most likely" afaik. Thoughts: Ange's response to my mountain question was really cagey. When grush has responded, he's tended to follow a pattern of "what is the equivalent of that descriptor in mafia terms (tallest = what in mafia game?, like that), and then answer based off of what he thinks a descriptor means in terms of mafia. Sometimes he's failed to answer, but still provided the reasoning for what he thinks a descriptor means. Ange's answer was just names. THIS IS NOT A GOOD REASON TO LYNCH SOMEONE OR FIND SOMEONE SCUMMY. BUT, I can't help but interpret her answer. The short, cagey answers make me worried. No reasoning, no explanation, no nothing. Ange hasn't played in either of the games I've asked grush similar questions. I haven't explained why I ask those questions. Her answers, as I see them, show that she doesn't want to reveal her hand at all, and just gives names. I worry about that, and the fact that she does so makes me think that IF she's scum, then the remaining scum (assuming 3) is someone who HAS played in PTP3 or LVII, or at the very least obsed them (If I got those questions from someone, I'd have no clue why they were asking. Ange didn't play in either of those games. Ange should find those questions VERY ODD. She answered them, which to me indicates that someone in QT told her about that stupid questions I've been asking Grush). Therefore, IF scumange, THEN scumsomeonewhoplayedinoneofthose games, leading me to sort of discard bluelightz as scum (I believe iamperfection, marv, hiro, zephir all played in or read those games). Another ange thought, her response to votes when she came back was very long, very thorough, pretty well thought out. Gut read - that post was crafted, and someone with at least a little experience in playing scum helped shape that in QT. That doesn't really get me anything though as I know palmar was alive at the point that answer was crafted, so ange's post doesn't necessarily give away anything about the 3rd scum if 3 scum. I need to fully reread Hiro. I just lynched him for being off/less active in PTP3 than I remembered him in town games. That's the reasoning we have for the lynch here. I'm going to be hesitant to lynch on that reasoning (or loosely on that reasoning) when I mislynched on the same grounds last game. So I need to figure out where I went wrong, and see what Hiro shakes out this game. I have a mild townread on Hiro based on that Palmar entrance comment, so right now I would NOT put him as my third scum. That leaves...marv, zephir, you (bluelightz is out based on mountain answer, hiro out atm). For NOW, the most likely scenario is NOT marv. marv would normally not get too much cred from me for his read on palmar. but the rb helps craft a better marv town/palmar scum story, and I'll go with it for now. Since you asked it "most likely," I've got to admit that holding the rb and marv claiming it is less likely than marv town. I think it's absolutely plausible that they'd play games with the rb, but certainly not 50+% likely. Also, like I noted at the end of N1, marv/ange interactions D1 were maybe a little wonky. Guh, I really seem to want to make marv scummy here, but no. Most likely town. So now I've got zephirdd, iamperfection for 3rd scum (still assuming 3). Right at the moment I don't have a preference between those two? Off the top of my head zephir has felt scummier I guess? I'd need to look harder at the two of you. That answer for third scum sucks, but it's what I have right at this moment. There's the rest of my thoughts on a couple players though. | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
On September 23 2012 22:39 marvellosity wrote: You're drawing too many similarities where they don't exist, though. VE tunnelled me so hard and in the end I believed he had to be scum because no townie would be so blind. Most of why I felt VE was scum was on how he interacted with me. Here I went to quite a lot of effort to remove as much as possible the interactions between me and Palmar (other than the initial silly OMGUS). My case rested on his (lack of) views on prplhz, Ange, Hiro, and his lack of investment in the game, and how this fitted his scum meta to a tee. From a personal point of view, I was extremely convinced that a town Palmar wouldn't still be thinking I was scum by the middle of Day 2, which helped firm my own read up. But I didn't bring this to the thread because I knew it was pointless and unconvincing. My case on Palmar though had practically nothing to do with OMGUS (even though it started that way). I probably am. I know that your finding him scummy wasn't pure OMGUS, and wasn't pure "not contributing." I'm just going to knee-jerk find you slightly, slightly scummy in any game where you get into a pissing match with someone else to this extent though. Which will probably end up being a bunch of games until I can get away from that. | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
On September 23 2012 22:56 marvellosity wrote: If you were lynching him for being off-meta in PTP3, then you weren't using meta correctly. Simple as that. It was part off meta, yeah. Honestly remembered a TON of little questions in Bureaucracy that then led him to reads and conclusions, and it felt in PTP3 that he was asking less little questions, and then doing less with them. I was clearly wrong in reading him as scum. A lot of the PTP3 lynch though was also off of mechanics. Shots on him that disappeared and were only explained by the fact that he didn't flip until after being dead. So the mechanics of his role kind of made him look scummy, when townies claimed to have shot at him yet the damage was missing. | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
PTP3 pre-replacement did not get much attention from me. He may well have looked like himself during that bit and I was just lazy and didn't fully read. I think that and Bureacracy may be the only games I've played with Hiro, apart from him maybe being in one of the numbered games? But I was an idiot in LV if he was in that and wouldn't have taken anything away about his play. So I'm not going to claim to really know his play, and he may well have looked like himself. | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
On September 23 2012 23:27 iamperfection wrote: I think your making a big stretch there and making a lot of assumptions. I think palmars whole plan was to have mis lynch on ange then probally dominate the town conversation from then on forward. A green flip i think would have caused a lot of confusion i think and the marv palmar fighting would just continue giving palmar more time to push further agendas. So im 99% certian ange is town. The rest is all super hypothetical, but I'll spew some nonsense. The response to the mountain question doesn't lead to any kind of strong read, but that's where my thoughts go based on her answer. I would ask, however, why, if Palmar's plan was to have a mis lynch on ange, he wouldn't vote ange. Is your line of thinking "Palmar knows town finds he scummy, therefore he calls ange town, hoping people will lynch her harder because she's got a townread from Palmar?" That's ALSO pretty tenuous. I'm not sure how you're interpreting Palmar's actions to yield that plan. | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
On September 23 2012 23:37 marvellosity wrote: you're both wifoming, although iamp was right, your post was very speculatively pointless in large parts. I'm pointlessly very speculative in large parts. I know it's entirely speculative, but I'd rather give my full thought process behind things, and really ange's answer to the mountain question is the biggest piece of me not thinking bluelightz is scum right now. | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
On September 23 2012 23:42 iamperfection wrote: im just having a hard time thinking the two biggest wagons were both on scum. So then what do you make of the end of D2? We had ange wagon, palmar wagon, and then hiro swap towards the end. If you have a hard time thinking we had two wagons on scum, do you feel that hiro is townie? | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
On September 23 2012 23:52 marvellosity wrote: Right, which is complete bollocks. It's just a meaningless contribution based on wild speculation with no basis whatsoever. You could have also gone with it being "an honest and complete answer." | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
GO TOWN! | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
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