EPTNewbie Mini Mafia XXV - Page 2
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Sweden995 Posts
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Sweden995 Posts
On August 24 2012 15:35 WeeTee wrote:Still I find it amazing how instead of just answering a question we need to nit pick. WeeTee, I think you are misunderstanding a major point here. Pointing out inconsistencies in arguments is the name of the game(or one of the names anyway). Without being allowed to do so, noone can be held accountable for anything. It is your own responsibility that your posts be clear, clean and unambigous such that there are no misunderstandings. More importantly, it is in the towns best interest that you take great care that your arguments are strong and valid. Without it, you will only spread confusion which is most definitely good for scum.Super encouraging. So just like I tried to articulate towards kush, you need to start considering your words better, without that being an excuse to post less. Without everyone trying their damndest to form clear and concise arguments, it will be very easy for scum to blend in. | ||
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With that in mind, I feel I must take Lvdr's side in this. I had had a long running suspicion against Lvdr since before I went to bed and was planning on making a case against him when I woke up, this was mostly because of his general lack of content in his posts. Upon closer inspection of his filter however, while he has a lot of very short posts, to me they all seem to lead in the proper direction, often mirroring my own thoughts on the matter. Not so with Shady, the last thing he wrote of substance before I went to bed was the following:+ Show Spoiler + On August 24 2012 15:43 Shady Sands wrote:Oh :S my bad then. I'm going to say we should just do one of two things: 1) We collectively decide he's town and ignore him as a major target for the remainder of D1, move the discussion onto other folks 2) We lynch him first and get him out of the way Let's figure this out fast, before we use up the rest of D1 just talking about him. At first, I thought this was a sound argument, but upon closer inspection I get the feeling that he just wanted to be able to later on get a wagon going against kush and I'll explain why. The first option of ignoring him completely just seems too extreme. Why is this the only other option? This sounds to me as if he is trying to force everyone to conclude that only the second option is worthwhile. Also, this statement is similar to other statements made by myself and others(Shady included) earlier in the thread that we should focus on other people instead of tunneling kush, but with a subtle difference. It suggests to ignore him completely! Then he tries to stress us into making a decision fast. The argument can be made for stressing the point being a town motivated idea to spur on conversation and getting out hopeful scumslips, but he completely abandons the idea later when it does not take hold. Later on he accuses Lvdr and puts a FoS on him. That was something that I was in full agreement with before I went to bed but as the thread continued on, I no longer agree. Lvdr having a town agenda makes sense to me from the posts he has made. Letting up on kush when we all agree that it's not leading anywhere could be seen as a scum move due to everyone already having come to the same conclusion, but on the other hand doubling down on kush makes very little sense to me. The issue of the roleclaim is something I want kush to defend himself against, but until such a thing happens and we get closer to having to come to a consensus(I'll be awake from now until lynch time), I don't think kush is someone we should be focusing too much on. He absolutely must start partaking in dicussion without knee-jerk responses though! Because of this, I'm changing my read on kushm4sta to a null read, while declaring a: FoS Shady Sands This is all with the caveat that I cannot deny Shady's last point about wanting input from Weetee, myself and Spaghetticus, and I'm not entirely happy with kush's, mkfuba's and Dandel Ion's contributions so far either. | ||
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Later on he accuses Lvdr and puts a FoS on him. That was something that I was in full agreement with before I went to bed but as the thread continued on, I no longer agree. Lvdr having a town agenda makes sense to me from the posts he has made. Letting up on kush when we all agree that it's not leading anywhere could be seen as a scum move due to everyone already having come to the same conclusion, but on the other hand Shady doubling down on kush makes much less sense to me. | ||
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On August 25 2012 08:28 kushm4sta wrote: I would like to point out that this kind of reasoning will not help your case. While I find Shady's reasons for voting you suspicious, you can argue however much you want about your ability to roleblock during the night. At this point noone but scum can believe anything you say about your supposed JK role, which leads all argumentation about it to be useless.@Shady Sands maybe you can explain this to me. If you are a townsperson why would you vote for me? Won't it become clear if I'm really the JK or mafia after the first night? I will say I'm going to roleblock someone then I'm going to do it. Why would the real JK, if it weren't me, roleblock the same person I say I'm going to roleblock? They would roleblock someone else to show the town my guilt. If you are mafia why would you vote for me? Now this is clear. It's so you don't have to kill me during the night (because you know I'm JK). You get the town to lynch me so you can kill a better player in the nighttime. That is your motivation for voting for me. You should immediately abandon using it as a way to prove your innocence and take everyone's advice that we have given you several times throughout the thread, try to prove your innocence through discussion that helps town. This because even if it turns out you really are a JK, noone disputing that fact can really be held accountable for calling you out on it. | ||
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On August 25 2012 09:07 Dandel Ion wrote: Ok, now this make me all confused... I guess it doesn't invalidate my concerns about Shady, but one the reasons I initially suspected him was because I didn't consider Lvdr scummy enough but he did.@Lvdr: @Shady: It really seems to me like you are carrying over an existing argument/exchange from another ongoing mafia game. I guess it's pretty hard to do (and coincidentially the reason I won't sign up for multiple games, ever), but please try to seperate this game from the other one. That being said, I think I would like to let my current argumentation stand until we get some clarification from either of them. | ||
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On August 25 2012 12:13 Shady Sands wrote:You FoS'd me early D1 too. No need to FoS me again. I would just like to point out that this statement is incorrect. The only suspicion I have directed your way earlier than my FoS just a few hours ago was agreeing that Spaghetticus' arguments against you had some merit, but that I didn't find them enough to suspect you of anything sinister.Lots of information posted in a very short interval now, will read and see if I have anything to comment on. | ||
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As I see it, we have 2 people pushing for actual votes. thrawn and Shady. I'm inclined to believe either story but I do find both of you to be a bit premature in your conclusions. Maybe you are just waiting for more information and just want to get the voting started, which I suppose is a fair point. Both of the proposed lynchees are being pushed due to the fact that they are playing as "bad townies". Let's disregard for the moment if they are doing so under pretenses or if they were genuinely put off balance by attacks during the early part of the day. I will state for the record that given the choice of only kush or WeeTee, I would prefer to lynch WT. Simply because the JK claim is something we should be able to confirm later on in the game. Dandel Ion, mkfuba, Lvdr and Spaghetticus. What are your feelings on this subject? Should town be ok with just picking either WeeTee or kush to lynch, or is there something else of substance to go on? From the last few posts here, I'm feeling relatively sure about thrawn being town, mostly due to the material he has produced, but also for following through on WT with what I would say is great success for his case. It should be noted however from looking at his filter, that most of his posting has been on the policy discussion early on, as well as defending people when it was highly non-controversial to do so(shady and lvdr early on, and me when WT attacked me). Shady, I'm still not entirely satisfied with your reasons for going so hard on kush, but I can't entirely disagree with your reasoning. I would like it if Lvdr came back to defend himself more against the things pointed out against him by you and others. Because while I agree with the following quote: On August 25 2012 04:21 Lvdr wrote: @shady My initial 'town call' on shady was mostly in order to stimulate discussion. Yes, he did match his meta for the most part, but it was extremely early to decide that someone was already town. At this point I am pretty suspicious that he decided kush's JK claim is scummy enough to insta-vote him. Seems like textbook play from a mafia jumping on the mistakes of a newbie. ##FOS Shady And you,Lvdr, could make yourself a lot clearer on a lot of topics, Shady's criticism of you has not been entirely without merit and while I think he jumped the gun, it would help the rest of us if you could elaborate. Especially your backtrack on mkfuba who I also feel needs to get his stuff together and write something of substance. | ||
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Boy did things happen in those few hours! First, I would generally like to agree with spag about kush/WT as I made clear in my earlier post that I only really wanted to lynch WT if there was no other option. That being said, if I am to exclude them both as lynch targets today the cases presented so far are against Shady Sands, Lvdr and Dandel Ion. Seeing as I have already placed suspicion of my own against Shady, I absolutely understand where Spag is coming from. However, right now I'm more inclined to believe that he is overzealous, especially considering the fact that if we (mis)lynch someone else, he is one of the players that we have the most material on for analysis as outlined by Lvdr. I would like to return to the discussion we had early about lurker lynching. From what we have gathered so far, the "lurkiest"(descending from most lurky) seem to be: Dandel Ion, mkfuba, WT, kush and arguably Lvdr and Spag. I feel that Lvdr and Spag has at least provided enough thoughts of their own that they can be considered non-lurky, and mkfuba to some degree has done this as well. You all know my opinion of WT/kush resembles that of Spag. This leaves Dandel Ion as a lurky player that we don't know very much about. For this reason, I'm inclined to agree with Lvdr that Dandel Ion is a lynch that town should be able to get behind. I realize that mkfuba accusing Lvdr has merit, and I will address his concerns, but first. ##Vote Dandel Ion @mkfuba: I entirely agree with your concerns regarding Lvdr, but I find his arguments for lynching Dandel Ion compelling. I also think that a (supposed) scum Lvdr has gotten away with posting way too little motivations for his reasoning. I called him out on more than one occasion for exactly that reason. I do believe that asking him to shape up during N1/D2 would reveal his intentions however. Also, while your case against Lvdr has some merit, I feel that your own motivations could easily be seen as scummy, for these resons I cannot get behind your case just yet. @Spag: I agree with you that if you are wearing scum-tinted glasses, looking at Shady's behavior can easily be seen as scum, I need look no further than my own FoS to see that and your own case surely doesn't help me lose that suspicion. Like I said earlier in this post, I do believe we need to give him the benefit of the doubt as well however. @everyone I urge you all to listen to Spag's argument regarding WT/kush, please instead get behind one of the other cases and tell us your reasons for doing so. I would like to repeat my earlier sentiment that if the only choice we have is between kushm4sta and WeeTee, my vote will go on WeeTee. I would however like to see us come to some kind of consensus at least an hour before lynch time. 2:40 to go. | ||
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##Vote WeeTee My net has been down for about 30 minutes, but it seems like WeeTee is the agreed lynch. Changing my vote so there's no last minute switching funny business. | ||
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On August 27 2012 02:58 Shady Sands wrote:He claims he has been busy FOSing people to prevent lurkers, but somehow he missed Alsn, who skipped out hours prior to nightpost and didn't even show up for the lynch. Wait, what? I most certainly did show up for the lynch. I changed my vote before the deadline too. Gonna write up my thoughts on the pre-lynch debacle sometime before end of the night, I've just been really busy today so far. | ||
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I want to comment on the following, as this is the event that sticks out the most to me in the hours before lynch. On August 26 2012 20:59 Shady Sands wrote:Again, Kush isn't listening to others or making a good case. My case on Lvdr is not in how many people he was accusing but the way in which he was doing it. He was FoSing and voting people without giving them a chance to respond, in the last 12 hours before the lynch. And he was rapidly switching his targets as he did so. This is a classic scum technique to find out who is AFK/busy so they can set up a mislynch wagon, especially given that most of the town was undecided at that point. Shady, you claim that Lvdr was throwing blame around all over the place in a supposed textbook mafia move. Except, your argument simply doesn't hold up to scrutiny. Firstly, the target switching. You claim that he rapidly switched targets as a way to find out who were able to defend themselves in order to launch a mislynch wagon. Yet his only switch was from WeeTee, to Dandel Ion. This with an actual proper case to support his switch. Second, it's true that WeeTee didn't show up to defend himself, but if your statement had been based in reality that's who Lvdr would have tried to wagon and not someone else who actually showed up to defend himself. Instead Lvdr stuck to his guns and actually argued with Dandel Ion who was very much here to defend himself. Lastly, in the end it was you, Shady, who made everyone switch to the mislynch, largely together with mkfuba thanks to the following post: + Show Spoiler + On August 26 2012 05:44 Shady Sands wrote: Okay. Mkfuba, you hold the hammer. I don't get how you can view WeeTee's actual vote and KushM4sta-level anti-town play as being less worth a vote than Dandel's "active lurking." Furthermore, if Dandel is as experienced as people suggest, it is better to have him around than a terrible poster who won't contribute to scumhunt. Unless your read on Dandel is 100% scum, you should be voting WeeTee. As has been pointed out by others, your reasoning here seems very flawed. Why other than your own suspicion of Lvdr did you feel that the cases outlined against WeeTee were stronger than Dandel Ion's lurking? Because he absolutely was lurking. He only really started defending himself once he was accused. Before that point Lvdr was right on the money as Dandel together with mkfuba was one of the players with the least amount of content/posts. In conclusion, I'm absolutely siding with Lvdr against Shady and as such, I would think the cop(if there is one? not sure on whether it's guaranteed that there is one looking at the rules) should investigate either one of them to clear things up. I'm not entirely sure who would be the best target however, but as of right now I would have to go with Shady. Lvdr's behaviour leading up to lynch seemed a lot more in tune with a townie desperately trying to get people to generate a "productive" lynch, something we IMHO didn't get. Shady on the other hand had a lot of inconsistensies in his arguments, some of which I pointed out myself here. | ||
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