EPTI will not be banned in the first game Bluelightz is hosting
Dwarf Fortress Mini Mafia
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marvellosity
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I will not be banned in the first game Bluelightz is hosting | ||
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marvellosity
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marvellosity
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On August 06 2012 08:52 Mordanis wrote: The "in punishment" applied to the entire thing. I also can't promise that I won't be shot for the duration of the game, but I can promise that reasonable hosts will have no reason to sexually harass nor shoot me for cheating or inactivity or anything else. That being said, if Bluelightz happens to be passing through Arizona and goes a touch insane and finds me, I also can't promise that he won't force-feed me black pudding. I can promise that it won't be for breaking any rules or inactivity. Yeah baby, that feels good. I put on my robe and wizard hat. | ||
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marvellosity
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On August 06 2012 21:58 KharadBanar wrote: /obs Where have you got to? You need to play some mafia  | ||
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marvellosity
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On August 06 2012 22:06 KharadBanar wrote: Oh I don't know, been outside TL Mafia for a bit, also I had a week in Croatia and so forth. As for joining a game right now, it's very hard for me to follow more than one game at a time, and I want to follow this one because Dwarf Fortress (and blzinghand's flavor texts )I take it that it was just a moment of negligence that you forgot to mention you wanted to follow your dear VI buddies HiroPro and marvellosity. | ||
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marvellosity
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except you  | ||
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yeah, I know >.< I realised too late that it had hordes of VIers in it :< | ||
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On August 08 2012 00:46 Forumite wrote: I think ShiaoPi is a Goblin What´s the point of watcher and tracker? DT is easy, check someone you think is scum. Watcher and Tracker just seem like weaker versions of a DT, with many false positive results. Are there any advantages? Do Scum decide on their own who among them carries out the nightkill? I suppose one possible advantage of a Watcher over a DT is that a Watcher can watch one person and has 2 chances (kill/roleblock) to catch someone visiting them. Relatedly, and it should go without saying but sometimes I see people not adhere to this, everyone must let town know when they've been roleblocked. | ||
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marvellosity
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On August 08 2012 00:50 marvellosity wrote: I suppose one possible advantage of a Watcher over a DT is that a Watcher can watch one person and has 2 chances (kill/roleblock) to catch someone visiting them. Relatedly, and it should go without saying but sometimes I see people not adhere to this, everyone must let town know when they've been roleblocked. hum, Can mafia roleblocker roleblock and kill, or must the duties be separated? | ||
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marvellosity
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On August 08 2012 01:00 sciberbia wrote: I agree that watcher seems like weaker version of cop. Tracker seems pretty useless for everything except confirming our doc IMO. I'm not expecting mafia to be all that liberal with their RB'r. What do you mean by this? | ||
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marvellosity
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On August 08 2012 01:08 sciberbia wrote: Well I don't really want to get into scum strategy, but what I meant is that if there is a tracker/watcher about, I'm expecting scum to be extremely careful about actually using their RB at all. Huh, interesting. It hadn't occurred to me that it might be a correct play to withold RB. In cop setup it makes little sense to withold RB because it's not traceable, but the same isn't true for watcher/tracker. But by not using it they're losing the chance to RB either the medic or the tracker/watcher. | ||
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marvellosity
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claiming alignment and claiming role are not the same thing I was more interested in the "truthfully" part of it. | ||
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marvellosity
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On August 08 2012 06:07 Forumite wrote: Yay, prplhz! ShiaoPi looks like scum, just read the few introposts. don't be insidious, explain why you find them scummy or shut up about it. | ||
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marvellosity
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then you neuter the other two setups completely by denying watcher/tracker of like 90% of their power. wtf is that about. | ||
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marvellosity
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On August 08 2012 08:38 risk.nuke wrote: Okey, I'm still not sure but I'm starting to lean that if we have a tracker (which we probably don't have if we're lucky) he should claim. At first I thought hiros suggestion was dumb as crap but thinking about it more and including things that hiro probably didn't even realise I'm starting to feel this might be the best action. I think he should claim Day 3 or preferably during night 2. Just before the daypost. (He could put some effort into making sure he'll be around for that time) but otherwise day 3 will be fine. thoughts? I think postulating about a setup we only have 1/3 of the time with various unknown lynches/nightkills in the way is quite an unproductive use of thread space. Even in your post you say "for things without Hiro realises" without expanding upon them. Looks like crap designed to spam up the thread. | ||
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marvellosity
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not sure how i got that one so far off | ||
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On August 08 2012 20:21 Forumite wrote: Marvel, could you explain this? I had an early scumread and said so a few times, definetly not spamming the thread about it. I also said I preferred to keep the reason to myself for the moment. What was wrong about that? Why did you want me to either reveal evidence early D1 or stop with light pressure on a random townie? Because calling someone scum without reasoning or recourse to defend themselves isn't productive, and it isn't "pressure" - there's no pressure, because it's meaningless. I left you to it the first couple of times you did it, but when you start pointing others to your 'read' (prplhz), still without explanation, then it should be called out. | ||
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marvellosity
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Shiao: yes I will, and hopefully a couple of others when I grab an hour this afternoon. | ||
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marvellosity
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On June 25 2012 09:01 marvellosity wrote: You need to stop doing this. You keep asking people about Probulous and telling him you're suspicious, but all you're willing to say is that you didn't like his Zentor vote oversight. Either make a case or don't. Stop expecting others to answer for you, or telling Probulous he's suspicious with no way to make a defence as you won't actually make a case. | ||
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marvellosity
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On August 08 2012 10:08 sciberbia wrote: OK I've made brief notes on everybody. Here are the people I find sketchiest so far: Shiaopi I agree with Forumite that this post seems off. Shiaopi is no vet, yet he starts off the thread with this bravado, confidence, and authority. It just doesn't seem to fit with the more reserved Shiaopi I remember from NMM XIV. I see this post as a conscious attempt to look bold, which fits in more with scum goals than town goals. + Show Spoiler + On August 08 2012 05:39 ShiaoPi wrote: @HiroPro: Seeing as you seem to want a tracker to claim at some point, how do you plan to confirm him (like an innocent child would be)? I don't think we would get mod-confirmation for a tracker and therefore scum could fakeclaim just as well. Kind of defeats the entire purpose you had when you try to confirm a townie via claiming. On August 08 2012 06:28 ShiaoPi wrote: @risk: It's more the general concept of Hiro to use a tracker claim as means of confirming town that I am against, not against claiming in general, but scum can easily counterclaim so it won't work that way. Shiaopi's analysis of HiroPro's innocent child proposal really doesn't sit well with me. He objects to the innocent child plan on the grounds that the tracker wouldn't even be confirmed town because scum might counterclaim. This is the part I have an issue with. He admits that it would actually be suboptimal for scum to counterclaim, but says that you should consider the possibility anyway. This suggests to me that he was just nitpicking the plan for the sake of nitpicking the plan. Why would townie Shiaopi object to a plan on the grounds that scum will play suboptimally and defeat the plan? Shouldn't he be assuming scum plays optimally? I'd really like other people's opinions on this point, because I might be biased by my own view of the innocent child proposal. prplhz This post seems sketchy. He is basically just criticizing Fortumite's play for the sake of criticizing Fortumite's play. This isn't constructive in any way -- prplhz doesn't say or even directly imply that Fortumite is scummy. Forumite I'm surprised nobody is calling out Forumite as I write this. His wishy/washy suspicions on Shiaopi are clearly sketchy: + Show Spoiler + On August 08 2012 00:46 Forumite wrote: I think ShiaoPi is a Goblin On August 08 2012 01:09 Forumite wrote: I´d prefer not to discuss my read yet though, I hope you understand. On August 08 2012 06:07 Forumite wrote: Yay, prplhz! ShiaoPi looks like scum, just read the few introposts. On August 08 2012 06:37 Forumite wrote: Okay. It´s based on the first post, quoted below: When I read that I see someone who is rushing a greeting to show that he´s here, doesn´t say anything on his own views and wants to shut down policydiscussion. It´s the very first post of the game, and he wants us to NOT talk about the only thing there is to talk about. On August 08 2012 07:00 Forumite wrote: On ShiaoPi, I wanted to see if my scumsenses were working after my break with a quick read. No, I´m not convinced he´s scum. Seems like he makes a falsely confident read, voices a falsely confident case, and then backs off when marv and prplhz call him out on it. I'd appreciate some thoughts on any of the points I brought up. Spoilered is scib's post on Shiao/prplhz/Forumite. On ShiaoPi. I don't read too much into the apparent 'bravado' in his first post. Moreover, my read on his post saying he didn't like discussing policy is that it was simply a dumb post, not a scummy post. People aren't going to stop discussing policy/setup because someone (further - someone who is not relatively a 'vet' in this game) expressed their displeasure at it. The only actual results of the post are that a) he looks bad when other people want to talk about shit like that which they always always do, b) he looks bad when inevitably he gets drawn into conversations about setup/policy. What's the scumplan with the post? It's ludicrous to imagine he thought he could stop town talking with it (!?), so rather it reads to me as a poorly thought through "let's get the fuck on with this guys!" On prplhz. At the moment doesn't seem to give a shit about town. Will elaborate a little in a post a bit later. On Foru. Will hopefully respond to the longer case fairly shortly after I've gone through Mordanis again. Briefly here, a point about Forumite calling Shiao out so early is that it puts his head above the parapet to be examined. Doesn't seem like a worthwhile thing to do as scum. My memory of Foru's scumplay from WoF is that he simply blended in. | ||
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marvellosity
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+ Show Spoiler + On August 08 2012 19:00 ShiaoPi wrote: I just read sciberbia's case on Forumite, while it has merit, I am unsure of him being scum. I can also see the early scumread on me simply as an early attempt to get some discussion/pressure going, he succeeded in that regard for sure. Regarding the logical inconsistencies they are a concern, but for now I would just like to keep an eye on him. @Custos I would really like you to contribute more. All you have done until now is pointing out a rather silly (read almost nonexistent) contradiction in one of sciberbia's posts and voicing some concern regarding me and prphlz. Mind elaborating why? Currently I am having an issue with Mordanis: Take a look at his opening post: + Show Spoiler + On August 08 2012 03:34 Mordanis wrote: I actually disagree that talking policy early on is bad. It is only bad when the policy talk tells scum how to get off free. "We will only lynch active players" tells scum that they can get one or two players to the late-game with as little content to hold against them as possible. On a similar note, it's probably not a good idea to discuss your heuristics for finding scum until you find examples of them in people's play. If you start talking about them right now, unless you list 173 of them, scum probably will actively avoid fitting your heuristic, thus ruining your chance of finding scum. Discussing when/how to use novel mechanics is simply a rational thing to do early in the game, though. Personally, I haven't had too much time to think about when/how to use the double lynch mechanic, but I can say that in my experience it happens fairly often that neither candidate up for lynching D1 is scum, and going from 9 town 3 scum D1 to 6 town 3 scum D2 would be pretty brutal. In short, I am strongly against D1 multi-lynching unless something very convincing happens to change my mind. Aside from that, the only other bit of policy I have to offer is that we should probably wait until night to discuss power roles, NKs, etc. During the day, all that really matters (in the absence of Day-vigis) is town/mafia. Daytime is for hunting scum, not deciding power role strategy. Enough with the policy now, I'm off to find scum. He is against cutting policy talk short and proceeds to do a good amount of it. The next sentence marks Mord as anti-lurker, but then he says that policy-talk should not be done, since it gives scum a pattern to avoid. But then he goes back to say that policytalk is useful based on the ground that there is nothing else to be done. This entire paragraph is extremely redundant and makes me think of him trying to boost the look of his filter by seemingly contributing in a circular logic pattern. His next two posts are hitting Custos, he questions why he quotes that part of scib. + Show Spoiler + On August 08 2012 04:26 Mordanis wrote: -snip- Funnily enough, the first person I'd like to ask a question is Mr. CL himself. In a way, Sciberbia's post telling people not to claim VT doesn't make any sense, especially when he comes out and says that he's a dwarf. On the other hand though, I don't see why you called out that illogical passage. Are you implying that bad logic is scummy? Or are you just poking fun at him? He is again extremely wishy-washy. Just look at it, first he critisizes scib for claiming alignment (which is pretty much a nulltell in my opinion), but then he also "does not see" how that could be called out. When Hiro says that it is a nulltell and differentiates between alignment claim and VT claim Mord responds like this: + Show Spoiler + On August 08 2012 04:35 Mordanis wrote: He is still implying that he's VT though, or else just asking for scum to kill him. When someone claims town, they are trying to make other people perceive them as VT. Why else would you claim town? Now he suddenly is much more concerned about claiming alignment (which he again links to VT). Flip-flopping at its best. Also on his latest post: + Show Spoiler + On August 08 2012 05:23 Mordanis wrote: Right, and so saying that you shouldn't claim VT when you make a statement that's only purpose is to make yourself be perceived as VT seems illogical to me. Enough on that subject though ^^ Wow, Forumite's accusation came much earlier than I expected. All Shiao had done was come out as anti-policy, and then when pressed came out against lying and lurking. What in that is scummy, I have no idea. I think its clear that Forumite has some type of plan hatching, but until we find out what the plan is, his early accusation is sort of weightless. It could be an attempt to draw scum out or to force townie mistakes in order to mislynch. Or it could be something completely different, or even some amazing, irrefutable meta-read that paints Shiao as scum already. I don't see how that could be possible, but without further information, it's sort of a null read on Forumite for now. I think Forumite does deserve some extra attention, as I'm always kind of wary of people who are scheming. Keep in mind that Forumite had already accused me much earlier than Mord posted. He only gives his opinion on it when Hiro asked him specifialy to do so. Mord sees no reason to suspect me, but hadn't he said that he also dislikes cutting policy short? Shouldn't he agree with Forumite's accusation based on that? Furthermore examine the rest of the post after the part I bolded. It is actually pure fluff. I feel that Mord has a higher chance of flipping scum than Forumite does, so ##vote: Mordanis Hopefully you can flesh/further explain somethings for me Shiao. Firstly, Mordanis can be pretty damn wishy-washy as either alignment. Why do you think it's alignment-indicative here? You write this - "The next sentence marks Mord as anti-lurker, but then he says that policy-talk should not be done, since it gives scum a pattern to avoid" which was in reference to Mordanis talking about not revealing heuristics for scumreads. Scumcatching heuristics is not the same as policy talk, why are you conflating the two? With the stuff talking about Costa Luna's quote of scib's town/VT claiming stuff. This kinda stuff is just made for making people walk around in circles and look confused/contradictory. So I will talk about this in a later post with regards to CL, rather than Mordanis. I take particular issue with your final paragraph: Keep in mind that Forumite had already accused me much earlier than Mord posted. He only gives his opinion on it when Hiro asked him specifialy to do so. Mord sees no reason to suspect me, but hadn't he said that he also dislikes cutting policy short? Shouldn't he agree with Forumite's accusation based on that? Furthermore examine the rest of the post after the part I bolded. It is actually pure fluff. Forumite accusing you was not a major thread event, and doesn't particularly require everyone to make mention of it. Hiro asked him about it... and he answered? How is this a point? Further, the fact that Mordanis doesn't mind talking about policy does not automatically equate to the idea that he should find anyone who doesn't like talking about policy scummy. Disagree != scum. Overall I think the case is pretty bad. I'm not sure atm if maliciously so. | ||
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marvellosity
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On August 08 2012 15:52 sciberbia wrote: my case on Forumite. Sorry for the length, but I think it's worth a thorough read. His read on shiaopi (the logical inconsistencies) 1) Why didn't he explain his initial read on shiaopi?+ Show Spoiler + On August 08 2012 00:46 Forumite wrote: I think shiaopi is a Goblin On August 08 2012 01:09 Forumite wrote: I´d prefer not to discuss my read yet though, I hope you understand. On August 08 2012 03:17 Forumite wrote: That´s okay, you are more likely to scumslip if you don´t think there´s any danger. If Forumite wanted shiaopi to feel a sense of security, why did Forumite voice his suspicions of shiaopi at all? I see no good explanation for why Forumite voiced his suspicions, but would not explain them. I find it suspicious that Forumite tried to provide townie motivation for his behavior, but it didn't really make sense. 2) What exactly did Forumite find scummy about shiaopi?+ Show Spoiler + On August 08 2012 06:37 Forumite wrote: Okay. It´s based on the first post, quoted below: When I read that I see someone who is rushing a greeting to show that he´s here, doesn´t say anything on his own views and wants to shut down policydiscussion. It´s the very first post of the game, and he wants us to NOT talk about the only thing there is to talk about. When I asked Forumite to explain precisely why he has changed his mind about shiaopi, Forumite said this: On August 08 2012 11:11 Forumite wrote: Current read: Nullread. I´ve thrown out my initial scumread, it was probably just the one odd post, especially as shiaopi showed that he was willing to discuss the setup just a few posts after the initial incriminating post. What I gather from this is that: -- Forumite's main beef with shiaopi was shiaopi's stance on policy discussion -- Forumite later decided to null this suspicion because shiaopi showed willingness to discuss the setup This logic is dubious to me, but what I find really suspicious is that Forumite continued to talk about his bold, red scumread on shiaopi even after shiaopi made some posts about setup and policy. The timing doesn't match up. Here are the relevant posts in chronological order:+ Show Spoiler + On August 08 2012 00:46 Forumite wrote: I think shiaopi is a Goblin On August 08 2012 00:51 shiaopi wrote: @scib: I can agree with your thoughts about the roleclaims, but I have a question about the 1+ Lynches. In your 2nd example you say that we can get an extralynch off if we lynch 2 instead of 1 at 6 vs 1 wouldn't it end still in 2 cycles as the night following a double mislynch would be 4-1. with the subsequent nighthit it gets to 3-1 and another mislynch ends the game as it will be 1-1 after the NK. Just my maths being wrong or an oversight from your side? On August 08 2012 00:55 shiaopi wrote: Watcher/Tracker are probably weaker than DT. Speculating on them being in the possible setups does not get us far though imo. Maybe for balance purposes but as marv points out the watcher at least has 2 things to watch. On August 08 2012 00:58 shiaopi wrote: Ah so another doublelynch instead of a single one. Makes sense now. On August 08 2012 05:39 shiaopi wrote: @HiroPro: Seeing as you seem to want a tracker to claim at some point, how do you plan to confirm him (like an innocent child would be)? I don't think we would get mod-confirmation for a tracker and therefore scum could fakeclaim just as well. Kind of defeats the entire purpose you had when you try to confirm a townie via claiming. On August 08 2012 05:54 shiaopi wrote: So your scenario would not differ much from a standard claim and therefore it should be examined and then judged based on the situation and not just accepted (like child claim would be), would be too easy for scum then. Too bad I thought you found a way to circumvent the gamerules to modconfirm a tracker On August 08 2012 06:07 Forumite wrote: Yay, prplhz! shiaopi looks like scum, just read the few introposts. On August 08 2012 06:21 shiaopi wrote: But stilll there is no need for him to claim. Just with his presence it would let our doc work much easier as scum cannot do too many RB's with his potential check. Do not see the need to lynch both claimers, just evaluate on the claims independently,I dislike both options , whether it is giving it a freepass or lynching. On August 08 2012 06:36 shiaopi wrote: While it would be sub-optimal play for scum to trade 1 for 1 that early, you cannot dismiss the possibility. On the other hand I could see it working out for the better if he claims as early as you suggest. He would leave scum fishing for the doc between the other townies. On August 08 2012 06:37 Forumite wrote:Okay. It´s based on the first post, quoted below: When I read that I see someone who is rushing a greeting to show that he´s here, doesn´t say anything on his own views and wants to shut down policydiscussion. It´s the very first post of the game, and he wants us to NOT talk about the only thing there is to talk about. ... On August 08 2012 11:11 Forumite wrote: Current read: Nullread. I´ve thrown out my initial scumread, it was probably just the one odd post, especially as shiaopi showed that he was willing to discuss the setup just a few posts after the initial incriminating post. To recap 1) shiaopi is aganist discussing setup/policy 2) Forumite finds shiaopi very suspicious for not discussing setup/policy 3) shiaopi discusses a good deal of setup/policy 4) Forumite still finds shiaopi quite suspicious ... 5) Forumite no longer finds shiaopi suspicious because of the posts shiaopi made in phase (3) I trust you can all see the inconsistency here. In Forumite's explanation to me on why he has retracted his suspicions on shiaopi, Forumite references that "shiaopi showed that he was willing to discuss the setup just a few posts after the initial incriminating post". But this did not stop Forumite from telling prplhz all about how shiaopi is scum. And I don't believe for a second that Forumite wasn't paying close attention to shiaopi's posts after he stuck his neck out and accused shiaopi. I see a significant contradiction here. 3) Why exactly did Forumite change his mind on shiaopi?+ Show Spoiler + This post took him 28 minuts to come up with after I asked him to more fully explain why he changed his opinion on shiaopi: On August 08 2012 11:11 Forumite wrote: Current read: Nullread. I´ve thrown out my initial scumread, it was probably just the one odd post, especially as shiaopi showed that he was willing to discuss the setup just a few posts after the initial incriminating post. I changed my mind because I knew I wasn´t getting anywhere. I didn´t have much to start with, and I got conflicting reads the first time I reexamined the case. That HiroPro, marvel and prplhz spoke up against me making accusations and/or against the actual case mattered a lot too, because I doubted my read if none of the other "veterans" agreed, and because I didn´t want to distract the thread more than I had allready done. That´s about it, I´m back to square one on shiaopi. OK so let me break this down: 1) shiaopi showed that he was willing to discuss the setup -- I discussed my issues with this logic previously 2) Forumite knew he wasn't getting anywhere -- This means nothing to me 3) Forumite didn't have much to start with and got conflicting reads -- That's not what it sounded like when he told prplhz how shiaopi is scum 4) The vets didn't agree This last point about the vets I find especially bad. Forumite references marv, HiroPro, and prplhz marv On August 08 2012 06:08 marvellosity wrote: don't be insidious, explain why you find them scummy or shut up about it. This is all marv says on shiaopi. Marv doesn't actually give any read on shiaopi whatsoever. Marv merely expresses displeasure at Forumite's behavior. This does not count as 'disagreeing with the case' HiroPro On August 08 2012 05:00 HiroPro wrote: (directed at Mordanis) What do you think of Forumite witholding his reason for thinking Shiao is scum? On August 08 2012 06:49 HiroPro wrote: Forumite, what do you make of the fact that Shiao has been willing to discuss the setup right after that? In the first quote, HiroPro casts some doubt on Forumite's behavior, but doesn't address shiaopi at all. In the second quote, unless I'm mistaken, HiroPro is actually supporting the idea that shiaopi is scum, by showing how shiaopi has contradicted his own distaste for discussing setup/policy. HiroPro certainly doesn't "disagree" with the case in any way. prplhz On August 08 2012 06:43 prplhz wrote: Too weak? Callign shiaopi out for nothing and now you are actually complaining about the setup, in a game that already started. What exactly are you trying to do? prplhz does think that Forumite's case on shiaopi is bad, but like Keirathi said, why on earth is Forumite taking prplhz's opinion into account here? First of all, prplhz has done nothing to convince anyone that he is town. And secondly, prplhz doesn't even explain why the case on shiaopi is bad. Put yourself in Forumite's shoes: 1) You have a scumread on shiaopi that you feel good enough about to announce to the thread 2) some vet comes into the thread and calls you an idiot but doesn't justify himself 3) You conclude that you must have been wrong about your scumread??? It just doesn't follow. See his thoughts on prplhz here: On August 08 2012 10:39 Forumite wrote: On prplhz Right now I´m in danger of falling into the OMGUS-trap, because the only thing I´ve gotten from him is the greeting and him calling me out. prplhz calling me out makes me think there´s something wrong with MY play, which makes prplhz a nulltell. I have a hard time believing that this would be any townie's reaction to essentially being called an idiot with no justification given. Other scummy points the way in which he discredits his own reads+ Show Spoiler + On August 08 2012 10:39 Forumite wrote: On me HiroPro called me out too. I agree that my case was bad and that it makes me look bad, but I object to one thing; I´m always falsely confident of my bad reads. I find this response suspicious. It looks like he is trying to garner sympathy and not inflate the issue. I don't know why a townie would call his own cases bad and cast doubt on his own scumhunting ability. he seems scared of marv, prplhz, me + Show Spoiler + Not sure if all of this really fits under the term buddying, but I get the feeling that he is playing a bit scared of influential players: marv -- Forumite explains his read on shiaopi only when demanded by marv -- "I agree with marvellosity, not tracking nightkills make the Tracker and Watcher too weak." -- changes his read on shiaopi based on opinion of vet marv prplhz His interactions with prplhz seem really odd. It's like he worships prplhz. I looked through Forumite's D1 of Wheel of Fortune, where Forumite was scum and spent some time defending prplhz, so I find this especially suspicious. On August 08 2012 06:07 Forumite wrote: Yay, prplhz! shiaopi looks like scum, just read the few introposts. -- backs off his read on shiaopi after scolded by prplhz -- concludes that he himself must be playing bad because prplhz thinks he is scummy me On August 08 2012 09:36 Forumite wrote: @sciberbia Fair enough, we´ve talked too much about the innocent child and need to scumhunt. Any tips on where to start? On August 08 2012 10:39 Forumite wrote: On me HiroPro called me out too. I agree that my case was bad and that it makes me look bad, but I object to one thing; I´m always falsely confident of my bad reads. It's actually remarkable how much of his filter I take issue with considering we are like 15 hours into D1. As I've been writing this case, I have a pretty good feeling about it. The only thing that really makes me hesitate is it seems almost too obvious, and that no scum would be so obvious on D1. Forumite doesn't seem like a bad/noob player, and I think he made it to the end of Wheel of Fortune as scum. I really want opinions on this case. If you are online, please post your thoughts. I think Forumite is more likely scum than not, and he is far and away my top scum candidate at this point, so ##Vote Forumite There are some pretty good things about this case. The strongest thing about the whole case is contained within the first section. On August 08 2012 03:17 Forumite wrote: That´s okay, you are more likely to scumslip if you don´t think there´s any danger. scib comments thusly: "If Forumite wanted shiaopi to feel a sense of security, why did Forumite voice his suspicions of shiaopi at all? I see no good explanation for why Forumite voiced his suspicions, but would not explain them." Totally valid. There are two contradicting stories. Forumite has repeatedly alluded to creating 'pressure' on ShiaoPi with his early accusation. But there's no pressure in such an empty accusation - see Shiao's repsonse just there. But Forumite replies to him that he's more likely to scumslip if he doesn't think there's any danger. So... why point the finger at him? That 100% makes someone more vigilant. There's a big contradiction in wanting to create pressure and thinking someone will scumslip if there is... no pressure! Further, I agree with scib's point about calling your own cases/confidence bad. There's no town motivation for wanting to have lower credibility with your reads, but it does provide an excuse for bad reads later (e.g. 'accidentally' mislynching a townie at some point). I dislike that Forumite has replied several times in thread but has not in fact addressed sciberbia's case against him. In fact his reply was to *slOosh*, who merely passed a little bit of comment on it, but nothing back at scib. Why? A couple of things on the flip side: I don't particularly agree with the whole vet stuff. At that point it's kinda a lose-lose situation. Foru could have gone the other way and pursued his post 1 read despite fairly influential townies being quite sceptical. In that case he would have been accused of blindly tunnelling with zero support. Like I mentioned a couple of posts ago, I don't know why scum Foru would make himself so noticeable like that when my read of his scumplay was blendy, and scib alludes to this too. Also the fact that Foru poked me about how I picked him up on it - why bring further thread exposure to the whole issue? Why bring me back to the topic? Basically I'm getting conflicting reads from various things. The whole contradiction with pressure vs more likely to scumslip without danger is a big point to me, because it makes him sound like squirmy scum who can't quite explain himself. Against this being a good player drawing attention to himself where unnecessary. People should be discussing scib's case/Forumite today please. | ||
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People who don't care about town: prplhz. For your convenience, his posts so far: On August 08 2012 05:38 prplhz wrote: Hey didn't read thread yet can anybody tell me who is scum? On August 08 2012 06:43 prplhz wrote: Too weak? Callign ShiaoPi out for nothing and now you are actually complaining about the setup, in a game that already started. What exactly are you trying to do? Posting to say he isn't reading, and casting doubt with seemingly no purpose. This is seriously pants. I'd be happier to vote for him if I hadn't seen him do similar as town before. Custos Moony This dude is worse. DoYouHas talked about him a little yesterday, and I agree with what he said. To expand: This goes back to part of Shiao's case on Mordanis, where Mordanis tied himself up in knots a bit about it. However, I see the root cause of that particular problem as Luna's post here (of course sciberbia was the originator, but Luna is the one to highlight it). The problem I have with this post is that it's highlighting something without providing your own commentary on it. As DYH said, it's highlighting a contradiction that wasn't even really a contradiction. What it *is* doing is planting an idea into town, an idea that can't be fruitful, and then letting town shit itself up with it. I see strong scum motive in this. On August 08 2012 04:31 Custos Luna wrote: I took 6 years of Latin, but it's been 5 years since I took my last class D= you should petition the mods to change it for me Mostly just poking for now, I'm at work and reading when I can, so I'm making note of things I see. To everyone: stop discussing the possibilities of a D1 double lynch when you have 0 candidates. There is no point to posit the idea of killing 2 when there isn't even 1 on the table. Again as DYH points out, everyone wasn't talking about a D1 double lynch at all. It was mentioned offhandedly as a bad idea a couple of times, but never seriously proposed in any way. In an empty filter, it's empty filler devoid of content for the sake of saying something. Further to note - he's at work and reading where he can, and just "poking". Excuse for not being substantial. On August 08 2012 08:30 Custos Luna wrote: Watcher tracks and Tracker watches. got it Just pointless. If it was sandwiched between content, fine, but it isn't. The fact of the matter is that Custos was around the thread at at least three points yesterday (just check the timestamps of what I quoted) but when he's around he contributes nothing or even causes thread disruption. On August 08 2012 13:18 Custos Luna wrote: hmm, had less time than i anticipated tonight, can't do much heavy analysis. shiaopi triggers my scumdar. prplhz raised an eyebrow, but i keep looking night - gotta go protect the moon Second excuse for doing nothing. In short, Custos Luna doesn't give a shit about town. His original quote-post of scib's was unexplained with his own opinion and served to disrupt the thread by making people talk about an irrelevant non-contradiction. He excuses himself for scumhunting. He is currently my favourite lynch target. ##Vote: Custos Luna | ||
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Clear? | ||
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On August 09 2012 00:59 HiroPro wrote: marv, what game are you referring to when you say that you've seen prplhz play this way before? I've never seen town prplhz be so abrasive and disinterested. huh. you might well be right actually. I went back to look at WoF and he actually started quite actively and only later was he like "let's lynch x" without really giving reason. The two other frames of reference I had in mind are IGCOM (invite + replacement) and Liar (PM invite game) which aren't that comparable. Alternative explanation then? prplhz is totally pissed off at rolling scum in like his 3rd consecutive mini and is totally uninterested. Hmm. | ||
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On August 09 2012 01:23 sciberbia wrote: Checking in from work. Mordanis I don't feel that strongly about him one way or the other. I'll look closer at him and provide more detailed thoughts if he is still up for lynching when I get home this evening. Custos Luna I'm kinda surprised marv is voting for CL when he seemed to like my case on Forumite. As far as I can tell, the bulk of marv's issue with CL is that CL didn't provide much content (until recently). Marv clearly sees this as alignment indicative, but not contributing any content isn't good town play or good scum play, so I wouldn't be comfortable voting CL on the evidence thus far. Forumite Nobody has really dissuaded me from my case on Forumite. I still think he is most likely to flip scum. I just want to point out this further, direct contradiction since my last posts: Forumite clearly states that he wanted to pressure shiaopi. If Forumite had explained his read and asked for other players' opinions, that would have constituted a legitmate attempt at pressure. But, what Forumite did, stating that you think somebody is scum, not explaining why, and then talking about other things in the thread, is not creating pressure. Forumite's early posts don't look like at attempt to create pressure at all IMO. Furthermore, you can see from that early Forumite quote that he was consciously trying not to make Shiaopi feel too much pressure. Am I missing something here? Because it looks like Forumite is directly contradicting his earlier stated intentions. I still have a hard time believing that Forumite is townie. Thanks for repeating what I stated about the Foru pressure thing, sciby I do like your case, and the reason I particularly want people to talk about is it because of the niggles I also talked about, I want to know how others view it.Regarding CL; it's not good scumplay or good townplay, of course. From a personal standpoint this is coming hot off the heels of Bureaucracy, where towards the end of Day 1 sandroba asked town to consolidate on gonzaw, saying basically "unless you can tell me one point gonzaw cares about town, vote for him" - gonzaw also posted excuses day 1 and gonzaw was also scum. The fact that CL has posted a few times in the last few hours but still hasn't addressed Forumite at all is another negative against his name. | ||
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I am unsure about aspects of Forumite which is why I particularly want it discussed. Now why don't you actually do so instead of nitpicking? | ||
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On August 09 2012 01:54 Keirathi wrote: I'm not nitpicking. I honestly think you're not making any sense. You don't want to get your scumread lynched, but instead want to talk about Forumite, and you try to discredit me for standing up to you about it. About Forumite: I really don't have much to add. He's said some dumb things and been stupidly wishy-washy, but I have a hard time believing scum would be so openly bad this early on day1. Not that its impossible, but I've never seen a scum be so transparent this early. And you dismissed it, but basically admitting that he was going to be sheeped by the "vets" still completely boggles me mind. Are you on drugs? Where did I say that? Scum are openly bad all the time. The just-abandoned XXIII had YourHarry throwing votes around with no explanation and he was scum. Normal Mini Mafia had prplhz throw around votes followed by a terrible cop claim and we all didn't lynch him because we didn't believe scum could be so bad, but he was scum and he was that bad. | ||
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On August 09 2012 02:08 slOosh wrote: Are you referring to Forumite's boldness at bringing back a potentially attention grabbing issue? yeah - why would he bring it up with me again? It just goes to highlight the whole thing. What do you think? | ||
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On August 09 2012 02:10 Custos Luna wrote: That's a rather ignorant blanket statement. You have clearly not been utterly destroyed by some of the scum teams on this forum. Also, hindsight is 20/20. It's easy to look back and pluck examples like that, but there are just as many, if not more, examples of townies being bad and throwing votes around. Custos - you're missing what I was saying. I'm not saying all scum are bad. Kei made the point that he didn't think scum would be bad so early. I was providing counterexamples. | ||
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On August 09 2012 02:42 Keirathi wrote: @Marv: oh yea, I remember this game. I missed the first day or two of it, but read the later days. So point taken, scum can play really..."badly" on day1. How often does it happen though? I can link you to a lot more examples where the person with the most Scummy Marks on day1 was actually a townie. This is part of why I always hate about the day1 lynch. Do I just vote the person who has the most scummy points? Or do I WIFOM around it because playing badly as scum just doesn't make sense most of the time? yeah, I get what you're saying. What I'm getting at is that you should try not to WIFOM yourself out of lynches. The fact is that town and scum can play badly or well day 1 or otherwise. So all other things being equal, the guy who plays like scum has a decent chance of flipping scum. That very same game (Normal 2), I WIFOMed myself out of yet another scum lynch day 2 with Zentor, because I simply could not believe scum would play so scummily and pick a fight with me... but again, it was in fact the case. If you're not gonna lynch someone for playing scummily day 1, what are you going to lynch for? | ||
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On August 09 2012 04:54 Keirathi wrote: @ShiaoPi: And you. You obs'd that game. You should know that his posting style fits with his general playstyle, so using that as a basis to vote him is silly. Do you think the content is different? Do you just want him to change his playstyle? Or are you a scum and know that he was almost an easy mislynch because of his verbosity in XXII and you think you can argue good enough to get it this time? you pick many holes but have yet to take a proper stance care to do so? | ||
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Custos is actually getting involved in town affairs ##Vote: prplhz prplhz very much is not. I'm going to look more into the Forumite situation. Need to mull over what slOosh said to me and also see if I can make anything out of what seems to be a lot of 'meh' from people about it. | ||
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On August 09 2012 05:27 Forumite wrote: I don't care, he must be able to make it clear to us what his reads are. It could just as well be him posting in hexadecimal code, or with posts of exactly two sentences that always rhyme. Too much fluff makes it hard to understand what he means, that's not transparency. Note: risk.nuke is lurking you ask him to make his scumreads clear yet with ShiaoPi you yourself were nowhere near In all seriousness, can you answer the point raised by scib/me about voting to pressure VS more likely to scumslip not under pressure? | ||
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On August 09 2012 05:37 Keirathi wrote: On Mord? Not particularly, no. His posts are extremely verbose, but so were his posts in XXII. 100% Null tell The whole policy vs heuristics thing was a misunderstanding that I believe you cleared up. They just aren't the same thing. Nothing he has done so far jumps out at me as particularly scummy. Both of those things are very similar to townie Mord in XXII, which Shiao obs'd, which was why I questioned him. I find that much more scummy than anything Mord has done to this point. No, I meant anyone/anything. Who is your strongest read and why? | ||
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 your objection was better than mine. fuuuumine was valid but yours especially so | ||
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can't tell if mordanis is scum or just made a really atrocious case. as you're here, what did you make of mordanis' case on ShiaoPi, prplhz? | ||
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Most likely to be scum? ick. to be continued. For when you return - please talk about Mordanis' case on shiaopi. | ||
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On August 09 2012 16:59 Mordanis wrote: [/spoiler] Long story short, its either the worst "scum-tell" in history or a pressure vote. First off, lurking/inactivity is a really bad scum-tell. One prominent example comes to mind+ Show Spoiler +##Vote: Custos Luna Mufaa/Skware in NMM 14, where one player was replaced because he didn't post at all in a cycle or two, and his replacement posted a total of like 4 times in 4 cycles, and 3 of them were in the first cycle he replaced into. He literally didn't post for at least 2 cycles and missed at least 2 votes, and he was town. this is so frighteningly bad I can't believe it. carry on mordanis. | ||
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On August 09 2012 15:47 sciberbia wrote: @DYH I don't really see Forumite as trying to push a scum agenda. I just see him trying to fake being a townie (aka survive), but not doing a good enough of a job. That's the problem, I don't see why if he was trying to fake a townie he'd have thrown out that pointless read so early. It doesn't add up. I'm happy with my vote on prplhz. I'm perplexed by Mordanis's cases so far (on me or otherwise), and sorry bro, I don't know your posting well enough to understand if it's scum motivation or if they're just awful and full of contradictions. Kinda a bit suspicious of HiroPro at the moment for content and very suspicious of Keirathi. He's made one post with his opinions on lynch candidates, and apart from that his entire filter is jabs, picking, poking, criticising. | ||
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could someone rustle up a votecount? gonna check in on phone en route | ||
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As for Mordanis. The meta read I get off him at the moment is town because of the fact he made a case on me. The game I remember him winning as scum he basically blended into the woodwork. Taking me on doesn't seem like the kind of risk or play he'd make as scum I don't think. | ||
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1) if I had wanted to be less wishy-washy about Foru I could easily have stuck my neck out, called him scum, and not got in trouble with it. The fact that my gut instinct on Foru was town while I believed the case was good was where the indecision came from. 2) Someone can be bad and town. What of it? 3) My case on CL was similar to my case on s0lstice in Not Themed where I backed down from it after he started contributing. There's no point in it if CL thinks it's just light pressure (this is where foru and I differ on what 'pressure' is...) Basically you're saying I've been wishy washy in a situation as scum I could easily have come down firmly, and you're saying I'm calling Mordanis bad for being bad. That's not a case, that's you not liking my play. | ||
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On August 10 2012 13:35 slOosh wrote: There is also the issue with the way he pressures: This is the exact same reason that marv first votes for CL!!! also this is a complete misrepresentation of what occurred in thread. I was calling Mordanis bad for saying that looking for players who don't care about town doesn't make sense. So of course it's the same fucking reason I voted for CL... Why did you choose to edit out the formatting from my post that made it clear that it was not I, myself, talking in the first quote there? | ||
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gg. | ||
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really cheap imo. | ||
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gg all hope to never participate in a 32 page mini ever again | ||
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as you will be able to tell I couldn't tell at all who was scum :/ I accused everyone except for Mord at some point... | ||
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[08/16][17:04:56] <marvellosity> where i said that the risk lynch made me suspicious of DYH/sloosh [08/16][17:05:06] <marvellosity> i.e. the two players who DO know what risk can be like. obviously i didn't put enough weight on to this >.< edit: and yes, DYH - we realised the voting pattern. But we thought it possible all 3 scum were on Forumite. Prevailing TL meta for that not to be the case is too strong though apparently ;p edit edit: DoYouHasPerson was signed in when posted 08-07-2012 02:48 PM ET (US) Initial read: marvelosity is blue nicely done, DYH. | ||
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On August 19 2012 03:39 DoYouHas wrote: I was really floundering on what to do day 3. I didn't know who I wanted to go after. That is why I jumped on your wagon so quickly Keirathi. You gave me an out that also got rid of risk for us. Win-win. yes, this was a scumtell for you. you had a couple (you had a bizarre post on CL at some point). sadly, so did shiaopi/CL :< | ||
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Also there was something about the day 1 lynch voting where you didn't come off too well I think. | ||
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