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On August 10 2012 08:28 Sideni wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 07:59 Lvdr wrote:
How does changing the order in any way change whether there was a scum tell or not? Whether I happened to say town or mafia first I think the suspicion would have been similar. Therefore, Sideni's addition reads as quite fluffy to me.
Oh, I thought it was obvious, so I guess I skipped on that point ... =/ Well, first, if you only say "Both Hapa and YH are mafia ?" you look like a real town player (you care for the right thing). To illustrate myself, I'll have to use an example. Let's say you have oranges and grapefruits in a bag and you can't see them. Now, let's say you want an orange. You'll put your hand on one, you'll take it out (closing your eyes) and you'll ask the guy holding the bag : "Is this an orange ?" because that's the orange you want However, you asked : "Is this an orange or a grapefruit ?" Someone wouldn't talk about the grapefruit at all... Now, let's reverse the words : "Is this a grapefruit or an orange ?" First, you would never ask about the grapefruit at all !
Hmmm nevermind, I don't have to keep going on my explanation, I just realized how dumb my logic was xD
I'm sorry to everybody for the confusion xDWell, at least, the fact that you wouldn't usually ask for town is still right !
Bolded part and your analogy that doesn't go anywhere looks pretty scummy to me. There's basically no goal, direction or reason behind this, but you still feel the need to share it with us. You apologize for the confusion, but good town play, in my book, is trying to AVIOD confusion. Confusion, gray shades and everything inbetween just give scum openings for misinterpretations.
Please, in the bolded part you clearly showed that you have the theoretical ability to think your posts through, the only thing left is to actually do it.
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Argh typos in a post chiding players for not checking what they post, gg me.
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On August 10 2012 09:19 Sideni wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 08:47 Dandel Ion wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 10 2012 08:28 Sideni wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 07:59 Lvdr wrote:
How does changing the order in any way change whether there was a scum tell or not? Whether I happened to say town or mafia first I think the suspicion would have been similar. Therefore, Sideni's addition reads as quite fluffy to me.
Oh, I thought it was obvious, so I guess I skipped on that point ... =/ Well, first, if you only say "Both Hapa and YH are mafia ?" you look like a real town player (you care for the right thing). To illustrate myself, I'll have to use an example. Let's say you have oranges and grapefruits in a bag and you can't see them. Now, let's say you want an orange. You'll put your hand on one, you'll take it out (closing your eyes) and you'll ask the guy holding the bag : "Is this an orange ?" because that's the orange you want However, you asked : "Is this an orange or a grapefruit ?" Someone wouldn't talk about the grapefruit at all... Now, let's reverse the words : "Is this a grapefruit or an orange ?" First, you would never ask about the grapefruit at all !
Hmmm nevermind, I don't have to keep going on my explanation, I just realized how dumb my logic was xD
I'm sorry to everybody for the confusion xDWell, at least, the fact that you wouldn't usually ask for town is still right ! Bolded part and your analogy that doesn't go anywhere looks pretty scummy to me. There's basically no goal, direction or reason behind this, but you still feel the need to share it with us. You apologize for the confusion, but good town play, in my book, is trying to AVIOD confusion. Confusion, gray shades and everything inbetween just give scum openings for misinterpretations.Please, in the bolded part you clearly showed that you have the theoretical ability to think your posts through, the only thing left is to actually do it. Alright sir, I need some explanation from yourself ... You tell me in that post that a good town player would avoid confusion (that's why I cut on what I say sometimes). Although, in a post before, you're telling me that I shouldn't be afraid to say what I think... Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 08:36 Dandel Ion wrote:
I'm saying you shouldn't hold back anything just because you're concerned how it'd reflect on you. You're not coherent in your sayings. (I know that I can be incoherent as well, but that's why I excuse myself and that I explain my thoughts) I made a mistake in my logic and I thought it would be great to assume that it's my fault and to explain it instead of just saying "nevermind, I made a mistake"... As I already said, you're not coherent in your sayings about what you want me to do and it makes you suspicious to my eyes. Next thing that bugs me is that I've been pressuring lvdr a bit and at some point, you just came to defend him ... =/ I'm currently under pressure by both lvdr and you and nobody comes to help me  I'm suspicious about you two. I looked at all the posts of lvdr and not a single one refers to you (in the current game). I did the same with your posts and the only time I have a result where you're talking about lvdr, it's either because you use a quote from someone talking about lvdr or because you're defending him... There's nothing, whatsoever, in the game, where you interact with each other, yet you both seem to be teamed up against me right now... You didn't even suspected each other even if there's enough material to ask yourself some questions ... For these reasons, I want to say FOS both of you, but I don't know if I can do that according to the rules. But, you're both on the same level of suspicions.
What?
Please quote the part where I defend Lvdr. Because I'm pretty sure I didn't do that.
At this point, I'm almost convinced you INTENTIONALLY misunderstand what I'm writing.
You shouldn't hold back READS and CASES. You SHOULD think about what you're posting. What of this is hard to understand?
I don't get your "logic". Clarify please.
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On August 10 2012 09:52 Kronen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 09:19 Sideni wrote:On August 10 2012 08:47 Dandel Ion wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 10 2012 08:28 Sideni wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 07:59 Lvdr wrote:
How does changing the order in any way change whether there was a scum tell or not? Whether I happened to say town or mafia first I think the suspicion would have been similar. Therefore, Sideni's addition reads as quite fluffy to me.
Oh, I thought it was obvious, so I guess I skipped on that point ... =/ Well, first, if you only say "Both Hapa and YH are mafia ?" you look like a real town player (you care for the right thing). To illustrate myself, I'll have to use an example. Let's say you have oranges and grapefruits in a bag and you can't see them. Now, let's say you want an orange. You'll put your hand on one, you'll take it out (closing your eyes) and you'll ask the guy holding the bag : "Is this an orange ?" because that's the orange you want However, you asked : "Is this an orange or a grapefruit ?" Someone wouldn't talk about the grapefruit at all... Now, let's reverse the words : "Is this a grapefruit or an orange ?" First, you would never ask about the grapefruit at all !
Hmmm nevermind, I don't have to keep going on my explanation, I just realized how dumb my logic was xD
I'm sorry to everybody for the confusion xDWell, at least, the fact that you wouldn't usually ask for town is still right ! Bolded part and your analogy that doesn't go anywhere looks pretty scummy to me. There's basically no goal, direction or reason behind this, but you still feel the need to share it with us. You apologize for the confusion, but good town play, in my book, is trying to AVIOD confusion. Confusion, gray shades and everything inbetween just give scum openings for misinterpretations.Please, in the bolded part you clearly showed that you have the theoretical ability to think your posts through, the only thing left is to actually do it. Alright sir, I need some explanation from yourself ... You tell me in that post that a good town player would avoid confusion (that's why I cut on what I say sometimes). Although, in a post before, you're telling me that I shouldn't be afraid to say what I think... On August 10 2012 08:36 Dandel Ion wrote:
I'm saying you shouldn't hold back anything just because you're concerned how it'd reflect on you. You're not coherent in your sayings. (I know that I can be incoherent as well, but that's why I excuse myself and that I explain my thoughts) I made a mistake in my logic and I thought it would be great to assume that it's my fault and to explain it instead of just saying "nevermind, I made a mistake"... As I already said, you're not coherent in your sayings about what you want me to do and it makes you suspicious to my eyes. @Sideni I think he's trying to say don't be afraid to respond cogently before quickly. If you find yourself knee deep into an analogy that is going nowhere and it occupied 45min to an hour of your time, I'd be totally fine with you stymying the retort bandwagon by throwing down a quick post "Responding to X's post on such-and-such but it's taking some time... please stand by." That's more valuable to me than having to read a post you've already 85% redacted or nullified. @Dandel am I clear in understanding your statement?
Pretty much. I already summarized it as:
You shouldn't hold back READS and CASES. You SHOULD think about what you're posting.
Here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=355874¤tpage=27#534
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On August 10 2012 10:10 Sideni wrote:
Well, it looks like I overestimated the number of posts where you kinda defend lvdr. (note that defending isn't just to give counter arguments, it's also to take the attention off the thing you want to protect.)
Here's where it begins.
So in short, you have nothing that even indirectly implies I try to defend lvdr. Just as I thought.
Alright, so with the question you ask me right here, you make me feel like you're using what lvdr brought. (I was explaining myself to him by that point.)
wat. I do not understand the meaning of this sentence sorry.
So, when you saw that you had a chance to interrogate me, you took it. Just as a child would get into the lie of his friend.
Since then, you're still on my case and you just now decided to explain what you meant clearly ... (leaving me enough time to believe a lot of things and seem confused)
So, just because I took a while to respond, because I don't camp this thread 24/7 and mash the F5 button every second, I'm deliberately trying to confuse you? Cause you seem to be doing a commendable job of confusing yourself already, doesn't really look like you need help to me.
As I said, defending isn't only to use counter-arguments to protect someone, it can also be just the fact that you take the attention off the thing you want to protect. Well, since you started to get on my case, we haven't talked about lvdr and you haven't even talked about how he behaves ... (Without any hesitation taking care of me)
So because I think you're playing scummy, it's a conspiracy between me and lvdr to screw you over? No, you're just playing scummy.
However, this takes the prize:
Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 07:40 Dandel Ion wrote:
Okay here's the thing I don't get (afair lvdr really stood out with that reasoning in game 0.5 - he was town that game though):
If you're (vanilla) town, why would you be concerned with being second on a case?
The first thing I had bolded is somehow unusual to me =/ We all know lvdr was town last game. However, you have to specify that fact ? Why would you have to tell us that he was town ? Is it because you know his rank in this game ? And if you know his rank, we all know where you belong The "though" at the end of that sentence is what gets most of my attention ! It feels like you're saying : "Last time he was X, now he's Y" and since there are only 2 possibilities and X != Y, he has to be mafia if we follow what you're saying !
I clarified that, because I don't see the TOWN motivation for it, but a confirmed townie did it in the last game.
You jump to the craziest conclusions and deliberatly try to twist and turn anything I say into your idea of scum behavior, what you do can't be town play. It reeks more like trying to get a mislynch train rolling than anything else.
If you ever post a coherent case against me, I'll gladly take it, but you're just grasping for any straw you can find
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@Shady Sands:
The difference between wanting a selection of lynch targets, and having a selection of lynch targets is allmost null to me right now. I wouldn't know if somebody deliberatly tried to keep the options open, but what I know is that I have a bunch of options right now. And I don't think it's possible for me to spot the difference between those stances on day 1. I'm willing to bet that you can't either.
On that note, I'd like the time to highlight something Promethelax said here:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=355874¤tpage=25#498
SS and Dandel: don't give me this shit. Discuss the game and the players, we essentially got a free meta test day with D1.0 so we are starting from a better position than we were in on the first day one. I, for one, see more from this day than the one before it.
Proclaiming that, he follows up with these two posts:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=355874¤tpage=26#505
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=355874¤tpage=26#506
And hasn't said anything since.
Now I know he's away a lot, so don't give me that, but he obviously had the time to post afterwards. But instead of sharing his reads, he vanishes with two no-content posts.
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I am currently most suspicious of Sideni (just in case I didn't make that clear enough yet)
I could see the merits of lynching lvdr or Axero too, but I'd be a bit more hesitant on them
Other than that, there's still a few people that didn't post anything substantial yet...
Though in my opinion we don't need to policy-lynch a lurker right now.
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On August 11 2012 01:00 Hapahauli wrote:
Can you outline your suspicions of Sideni? I think the case on Sideni is comprised of a lot of OMGUS.
Context: Sideni already misunderstood some smaller things beforehand, in retrospect I see that as intentional.
1) I point out a scummy post by him:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=355874¤tpage=27#530
In itself not too bad, just a bit scummy flavored.
2) but this one is where I start seeing him as scum:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=355874¤tpage=27#533
He somehow deduces out of my 1) post that I'm defending Lvdr (something I didn't even indirectly do) and in addition to that, he intentionally (I feel safe to assume by now) misunderstands me yet again, to fabricate a contradiction in my posts.
3) Even after I point out he's spouting random nonsense, he just doesn't let his weak claims rest
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=355874¤tpage=28#547
I adressed his post: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=355874¤tpage=28#550, but since he went to bed and hasn't appeared ever since, I still have no answer. Not that I'm expecting much of it.
Yes, I'm probably biased since he put his "case" on me, but can you honestly say you see a town motivation behind his actions? Or even basic logic? Hell, I'd be happy with basic logic.
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On August 11 2012 01:02 Hapahauli wrote:
Also, why the hesitancy against Lvdr and Axero? What part of the suspicions against them do you feel aren't valid (or are less valid than yours against Sideni)?
Axero is just a lurker to me - in fact I see much of your suspicion towards him as OMGUS since he FoS'd you early in his posts, also your assumption that he was told to not lurk by the mafia coach.
I don't share your assumption about the coach, and I can't OMGUS him, so to me, he's just a lurker with slightly scummy posts.
I wouldn't call it hesitancy - I'd be kinda okay with lynching him after all. I just think Sideni is a better target. That my be biased, but it's how I feel about it atm.
Getting to lvdr in a sec
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Alright, lvdr has lower priority because I think most of the case against him comes from the clusterfuck between him, YH and mkfuba (from this page on pretty much), which I assume will make sense once we know some flips, but right now, I'm not sure how to read it.
But as I write this he posts:
On August 11 2012 01:19 Lvdr wrote:
Regarding my apparent lack of scumhunting: I was the first to make a case against Sideni, however, Dandel started grilling Sideni so I decided to back off. In my opinion, Sideni has not done a particularly good job of defending himself. The strange analogies don't mean anything and contribute to a filter that is incredibly fluffy.
Just because I decided to question him a bit, doesn't mean you shouldn't. You had the same reasoning in game 0.5, going so far as to not post cases on scummy players because the "good ones were already taken".
That is a reasoning I can't share, and it looks scummy to me. But in game 0.5 you were town, so I don't think I can use that as a scum tell comfortably.
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lol
##vote Sideni
If somebody ELSE has something he'd like to ask me, I'll answer.
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On August 11 2012 02:33 Hapahauli wrote:
@ Dandel Ion: Sideni posted quite the case on you, and you going "lol, Vote Sideni" makes you look pretty shitty. If you are town, I highly suggest you defend yourself.
As of now, I'm reading through Sideni's case, and I'll post my thoughts within the hour
Please read through it before saying things like that.
I don't trust myself to respond in a calm matter, I'd just insult him over and over - that would not help anyone.
If you read it and still think it's worth responding to, tell me.
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@Hapahauli:
On August 11 2012 02:49 Dandel Ion wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 02:33 Hapahauli wrote:
@ Dandel Ion: Sideni posted quite the case on you, and you going "lol, Vote Sideni" makes you look pretty shitty. If you are town, I highly suggest you defend yourself.
As of now, I'm reading through Sideni's case, and I'll post my thoughts within the hour Please read through it before saying things like that. I don't trust myself to respond in a calm matter, I'd just insult him over and over - that would not help anyone. If you read it and still think it's worth responding to, tell me.
What about it now you read it?
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On August 11 2012 04:09 Promethelax wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 08:47 Dandel Ion wrote:On August 10 2012 08:28 Sideni wrote:On August 10 2012 07:59 Lvdr wrote:
How does changing the order in any way change whether there was a scum tell or not? Whether I happened to say town or mafia first I think the suspicion would have been similar. Therefore, Sideni's addition reads as quite fluffy to me.
Oh, I thought it was obvious, so I guess I skipped on that point ... =/ Well, first, if you only say "Both Hapa and YH are mafia ?" you look like a real town player (you care for the right thing). To illustrate myself, I'll have to use an example. Let's say you have oranges and grapefruits in a bag and you can't see them. Now, let's say you want an orange. You'll put your hand on one, you'll take it out (closing your eyes) and you'll ask the guy holding the bag : "Is this an orange ?" because that's the orange you want However, you asked : "Is this an orange or a grapefruit ?" Someone wouldn't talk about the grapefruit at all... Now, let's reverse the words : "Is this a grapefruit or an orange ?" First, you would never ask about the grapefruit at all !
Hmmm nevermind, I don't have to keep going on my explanation, I just realized how dumb my logic was xD
I'm sorry to everybody for the confusion xDWell, at least, the fact that you wouldn't usually ask for town is still right ! Bolded part and your analogy that doesn't go anywhere looks pretty scummy to me. There's basically no goal, direction or reason behind this, but you still feel the need to share it with us. You apologize for the confusion, but good town play, in my book, is trying to AVIOD confusion. Confusion, gray shades and everything inbetween just give scum openings for misinterpretations. Please, in the bolded part you clearly showed that you have the theoretical ability to think your posts through, the only thing left is to actually do it. Here Dandel says that the bolded part of Sadini's post both doesn't go anywhere/is scummy and shows the ability to think a post through...errrr what? Why blatantly contradict yourself? Setting yourself up to distance from a lynch?
Please read it properly. He has the THEORETICAL ability to think his posts through, he just doesn't do it.
He posts something, and says its bullshit right after, in the same post.
That means he should know he should delete it in the first place, but he doesn't make the connection to actually do it.
I don't know why you still go on about this, I've explain all this already.
I get the feeling you have a personal grudge against for some unfathomable reason. You accuse me of lurking, then you lurk the shit out of the thread.
You say I argue with Sideni for too long - I agree on that, but as soon as I try to stop, Hapahauli jumps up and yells at me for being "shitty" for not arguing any more.
I have a question for you:
If Sideni gets lynched, what information will you get out of the flip, and how will it reflect on me?
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On August 11 2012 04:25 Hapahauli wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 04:07 Dandel Ion wrote:@Hapahauli: On August 11 2012 02:49 Dandel Ion wrote:On August 11 2012 02:33 Hapahauli wrote:
@ Dandel Ion: Sideni posted quite the case on you, and you going "lol, Vote Sideni" makes you look pretty shitty. If you are town, I highly suggest you defend yourself.
As of now, I'm reading through Sideni's case, and I'll post my thoughts within the hour Please read through it before saying things like that. I don't trust myself to respond in a calm matter, I'd just insult him over and over - that would not help anyone. If you read it and still think it's worth responding to, tell me. What about it now you read it? I posted my thoughts already: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=355874¤tpage=31#615http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=355874¤tpage=31#617The case is pretty bad. Like really bad. I'll have to do some thinking on whether or not it's scum motive or not though: bad cases aren't necessarily mafia-motivated. At the moment, it's my gut feeling that Sideni is a bad townie. Sideni has been pretty active, and despite the "fluffiness" of his posting, they read to me as genuine attempts to contribute. Secondly, I don't understand why Sideni (as mafia) would go after Dandel Ion after largely agreeing with mkfuba's case on Lvdr. I feel that hypothetical mafia-Sideni would have sheeped on Lvdr. So for the moment, I'm sticking with my vote on Axero. I've made my previous case on him clear, and he's sheeped into voting for Lvdr. I think he's the best lynch, but I have much more thinking to do over the next few hours.
Hm just wanted to know if you still required me to adress it - I'm gonna take your post as a "no"
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On August 11 2012 05:12 Hapahauli wrote:
Given the rest of his play so far, I consider it a null tell. He has a well-written case on Lvdr on the table as well as a vote. I'm not a fan of his relative silence, but I don't consider it all that suspicious given his standing case on Lvdr.
So if Axero just voted on you instead of FoS'ing you, and then went afk for the rest of day 1, you wouldn't have a problem with him?
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On August 11 2012 05:15 Hapahauli wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 05:14 Dandel Ion wrote:On August 11 2012 05:12 Hapahauli wrote:
Given the rest of his play so far, I consider it a null tell. He has a well-written case on Lvdr on the table as well as a vote. I'm not a fan of his relative silence, but I don't consider it all that suspicious given his standing case on Lvdr. So if Axero just voted on you instead of FoS'ing you, and then went afk for the rest of day 1, you wouldn't have a problem with him? How the hell did you go and reason that one? If Axero managed to write a decent case on me and vote me, I wouldn't be suspicious of him.
Okay, fair enough.
It just seems that half your case is because he suspected you, is all.
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UNofficial Votecount:
yet to vote: Kronen, ShadySands
mkfuba(1): YourHarry
lvdr(4): Axero, Sideni, mkfuba, iamperfection
Sideni(4): Promethelax, lvdr, goodkarma, Dandel Ion
Axero(4): Hapahauli
with 12 people, it should take 7 to lynch, but it says 6 in the day1 post? So we could in theory lynch 2?
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Alright I thought about it.
I think this is how I want to proceed:
We lynch lvdr.
He flips town, we lynch Sideni day 2 and probably mkfuba on day 3
He flips scum, you guys probably lynch me day 2
I'm pretty sure we get at least 1 scum with that.
I won't lie, I'd like to have Sideni out of the game as fast as I can, but we all make our sacrifices....
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EBWOP: Screwed up the votecount, the number in the bracket for Axero should be (1)
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EPT
