Newbie Mini Mafia XX

On July 05 2012 06:59 Hopeless1der wrote:
@Lazer, you're already contradicting yourself and its only one post:




Geez it was even in the same paragraph. Which one is it?!

On July 05 2012 07:22 Hopeless1der wrote:


What?...I...Its right there..with the underlined..

- There really isn't a situation you want to fakeclaim as a townie
- Obviously there are situations where you might want to claim as blue

Is that not a contradiction? or did you mean actually claim as blue, not fakeclaim, because that's literally the only way those two statements don't conflict with one another.

Mackin give the poor guy a chance, he's just a little excited I think. I just wanted to give him a heads up so he checks his posts more carefully, that way we can narrow down our scum lists earlier rather than later.

On July 05 2012 08:58 Release wrote:
I think YourHarry is Grush's new alias.


Ignoring the copy-pasted policy stuff for now,

Why on earth did you even post that scenario stuff about a VT fake-claiming a DT or blue? There was absolutely no indication that anyone had even planned on that (especially considering you had the first post). If anything, you have just shown people something they can do (to the detriment of the town). And why go through the casework? It's just fluff and you know it. This is very much a post looking like a contribution, while being a non-contribution, or even an anti-contribution.

Im pretty sure, again, that no one was even remotely close to voting in a way to force a nolynch.

I love the bolded line; you could have kept this post simple and concise. But you decided to make it "super-duper long."

##vote: Lazermonkey

Yourharry, you should do more than OMGUS. You are definitely rivaling, for scumminess, against lazer.

Fos: yourharry
Fos: lazermonkey

On July 05 2012 06:43 JingleHell wrote:
So, since Lazer already opened with the pre-requisite long-winded "Please don't lynch me" post, I'd feel silly making a similar one, so instead, I'm going to open by asking Evulrabbitz why his name references a sex toy. After that question, of course, it suddenly feels awkward, but unless he can answer it well, FoS Evulrabbitz

On July 05 2012 07:56 JingleHell wrote:
Well, Hopeless, since you're at least talking, I don't think you're scum yet. However, if day1 lurkers start causing trouble, I'm all for just throwing the dice and lynching one just to make a clear point.

Also, just as wonky meta, compared to your D1 play in XIX, I'm pretty sure you're town here. You're not afraid of prolific D1 posting, among other things.

Actually, I'm VERY suspicious about YourHarry's lightning fast vote. Could be a throwaway effort to get a bandwagon started, since D1 voting is nonsense in newbie games. In the case of a mislynch, it would be easy to argue away.

On July 05 2012 08:05 JingleHell wrote:
EBWOP: And Harry, don't try to turn my logic around on me, my vote was based on your suspicious vote.

Your quote on Hopeless wasn't what I'd call a real reason to vote for someone who's at least being active, and not particularly suspicious.

Voting for him that way makes you look scummy, considering you've said nothing of real substance yet.

On July 05 2012 08:13 JingleHell wrote:
I couldn't care less how many games you've played on mafiascum. As it turns out, in newbie games on TL, D1 bandwagons have a tendency to be lethal, particularly if there's no substance to the case to defend against. As such, it's better to target someone who's being either actively or passively useless, not somebody who's at least jumping into the deep end.

In particular, compared to his play in a different game, where he seemed painfully scummy, Hopeless1der seems like he's heading for direct contribution.

On July 05 2012 08:13 JingleHell wrote:
I couldn't care less how many games you've played on mafiascum. As it turns out, in newbie games on TL, D1 bandwagons have a tendency to be lethal, particularly if there's no substance to the case to defend against. As such, it's better to target someone who's being either actively or passively useless, not somebody who's at least jumping into the deep end.

In particular, compared to his play in a different game, where he seemed painfully scummy, Hopeless1der seems like he's heading for direct contribution.

On July 05 2012 10:19 JingleHell wrote:
I can't decide what to laugh at first, but at least now people are explaining votes.

If you want to see what showed me that early voting with no rationalization at all is bad, go see D1 XIX. Ridiculous mislynch, because of votes with zero substance.

On July 05 2012 11:08 Release wrote:
are you outing Jingle as your scumbuddy? or maybe trying to drag him down with you? YOU ARE SO CONFUSING. OMGUS.

Why are you promoting your first post as a discussion starter? It isn't. It is an attempt to brainwash unsuspecting townies and get us talking about useless things. I commend him for shutting your down your post with this authority.
If you are actually using the discussion of sex toys as a reason to call him scum, you really are just grasping at straws for lack of any real substance.

On July 05 2012 11:08 Release wrote:In terms of day1, i don't think setting a tone on lynching lurkers is necessarily a bad thing. should we decide on lynching a lurker, the lurkers will feel a need to speak up in order to avoid getting the lynch. In other words, saying "let's lynch lurkers" promotes discussion. And "to make a point" states exactly that. "speak up or die."

On July 05 2012 11:08 Release wrote:Jingle should probably reply to the next part, but as far as i can see, it goes
- OMGUS OMGUS OMGUS ##vote
-##vote x 10
- no discussion, the guy who got OMGUS'd has nothing to attack/defend. Checkmate. Turns out, he was VT o.O

On July 05 2012 11:08 Release wrote:are you outing Jingle as your scumbuddy? or maybe trying to drag him down with you? YOU ARE SO CONFUSING. OMGUS

On July 05 2012 11:08 Release wrote:- no discussion, the guy[Jingle] who got OMGUS'd has nothing to attack/defend. Checkmate. Turns out, he was VT o.O

On July 05 2012 11:08 Release wrote:That being said, Jingle has only made very light commitments and commented on very obvious/easy things.

On July 05 2012 11:11 JingleHell wrote:
Yeah, you pretty much nailed my point, Release. I actually already explained it, but they're ignoring it and burying it with more of this nonsense, so I'm not feeling particularly inclined to get into a shouting match with them. If the town has the slightest chance in hell this game, then people will see the sense in the responses I've already made.

My light commitments and obvious easy comments are mostly because there's little to discuss without stooping to their level. If I don't play their game, and I don't want to get the bandwagon rolling violently over a towny, then the best thing to do is observe and respond, rather than letting myself get dragged into some OMGUS shouting match that only benefits scum.

On July 05 2012 11:41 JingleHell wrote:
So a me too post that contributes nothing while taking me out of context is supposed to make me nervous? Yawn.

The day1 voting reference was talking about people bandwagoning onto any case built on nothing, as I actually discussed. Which you completely ignored. It's like you dug through 20% of my filter and ignored all the inconvenient parts. You sound like Lazer's pet parrot.

Like I said, if people D1 lynch me based off bad jokes like you and lazer's posts, the town is doomed anyways.

On July 05 2012 08:38 TMG26 wrote:
Lazer was not clear on what he said, Hopeless stated that, and yourHarry immidiatly voted Hopeless for that

So, in my opinion if we want to catch the scum we have to confront them, so i Hopeless did the right thing...But so did yourHarry, what i find funny was JingleHell jumping in to declare FoS on yourHarry

In my opinion Hopeless and yourHarry did almost same same thing

My main suspects right now fall to yourHarry and JingleHell, because your acusations seammed more like a counter acusation after a "scum teammate" being acused

But is all still too light, a lot of people still havent spoken

On July 05 2012 23:39 Release wrote:
discalimer: i've only read up to this point:

A "discussion-starter" that is used to talk about useless information/ideas can be very detrimental to the town. If that discussion starter actually caught some serious traction, we may have ended up spending ~24 hours talking about VTs claiming as blues and blues claiming, and whatnot.

If you actually think the discussion about sex toys is designed to shit up the thread, i don't know what to say. It's maybe a page long, it shut down your attempt (in an awkward fashion), and he hasn't tried to rehash it once it died off

On July 05 2012 23:39 Release wrote:My stance on jingle?
The first part was a joke about you.

The second one was a hypothetical scenario.

The third one expresses my view. And you forgot to include the part where i said he looks better than you.

On July 06 2012 02:37 JieXian wrote:
Let's focus on lurkers like Mackin ATM. I know I might qualify as one but I have nothing to add to the lazer/hapa vs hopeless/release/jingle babbling

On July 06 2012 00:00 Release wrote:This is kind of interesting

You defend Lazer and try to downplay the importance of first posts (despite Lazer calling his own post bad).

On July 06 2012 04:33 The_Zen_Man wrote:When Hopeless later states that he had no intention of anything like a bandwagon on Lazer, Mackin quickly change his opinion again, not mentioning anything about Lazer again, as his bandwagon failed. Mafia tends to want to not have opinions alone, and rather have some other people to back them up, while town has no reason to not go after someone alone.

On July 06 2012 05:19 The_Zen_Man wrote:


Lazermonkey, i made one post about him, and it is my second since the game started, so i have not really over read him. I was going to post about other players too.

And yes, you can actually say how mafia will play, otherwise there would be no point in analysis, would it?

On July 06 2012 07:15 Mackin wrote:
I'm not exactly sure of what to think yet. Nobody has clearly made any big bold statements but whoever the Mafia are, they sure are trying their best to confuse the shit out of me. I can see why people say Mafia is more rewarding the more time you spend looking at it, it is really difficult to make an informed decision when half of the people are lying to you

Release seems like he's on the town's side, as does Hapa, Zen and JieXian, who mostly has the same motive to get people talking as me. Many people have already given credible reasons for suspicion of others, including suspicion aimed at myself but I can see pretty much everyone isn't doing too bad at acting townie.

On July 06 2012 03:59 Hopeless1der wrote:
So while catching up, it looks like Release isn't making any friends.
YourHarry has also disappeared after resolving his shouting match with Jingle. He's said he'll re-read for scum vibes and hasn't been heard from since.



Mackin on the other hand disappeared about the same time as Rabbitz: just before what I consider the 'real discussion' started. A very suspicious time to start lurking because they could very easily have been watching and just let the town shred itself so I'll be watching them both going forward for avoiding discussions. Not that they're both necessarily scum, but its definitely looks scummy to me.

Rabbitz came back and had a read on Release that looks pretty good, but there are a couple other fingers pointed at Release concern me:
+ Show Spoiler +
Hapahauli is doing a big backslide from his previous case on Release, after seeing + Show Spoiler +

and just jumps all over it, building a huge case:+ Show Spoiler +

He pushed him for a bit, and then finally let up once everyone else had suspicions on Release. His change of stance is well timed to distance himself from his provoking, but he still leaves himself an open avenue to target Release later on based on his meta from a game where Lazer played the same but got a different response from Release than this game..

The other thing that I found scummy about him was his reason for suspecting Jingle in this case:


I don't get how being anti-bandwagon can be seen as suspicious. Bandwagoning is terrible and I completely agree with Jingle's stance on it, seeing as I was the victim of a D1 mislynch in XVIII. Scum don't have to push for a majority vote this game, they can let us rile ourselves up and can vote with little risk of getting themselves caught in the mislynch votecount.

FoS: Hapahauli

On July 06 2012 02:31 JieXian wrote:


I'm going to put aside the babble between the loudest players who are having a stupid disagreement about getting people to talk vs how it's useless fluff.

TMG is clearly new, not a native speaker and deserves some BOTD.

My FOS is on Mackin for trying to light up fires and disappearing as town burns. His thoughtless posting reminds me so much of mafia behavior.

[B]On July 06 2012 18:14 JieXian wrote:


lololololololol you're right. I played NMMXIII with hopeless and this doesn't sound like him at all

#Vote Hopeless

On July 05 2012 23:08 JingleHell wrote:
I do wish we could stop looking at Lazer's first post as "contradictory". Actually, for that matter, I wish we would leave alone all the initial burst of posting, the entire purpose is to get people talking, which was accomplished. Frankly, I don't think Lazer's first post felt scummy, because while it was only very basic, it was an effort to do the same thing I accomplished by bringing up sex toys. I've just discovered that something meaningless works better.

Instead of cluttering things up, I'll just say that Bass and Lazer's analysis on TMG sounds good, and I'll be interested in seeing what he has to say.

On July 06 2012 22:33 JingleHell wrote:I'm not playing nice, I'm telling them to make cases on you not be grounded on something that's clearly down to how you read it.

On July 06 2012 22:33 JingleHell wrote:I'm not bothering to post here as much because frankly, I'd rather watch people post when it looks like a half schitzo paranoid delusional 3 headed monster shouting at itself. Don't like it, maybe people should stop making 30 second cases and then chasing the next person that posts around.

On July 06 2012 22:33 JingleHell wrote:If you're so suspicious of me, do us all a favor, vote for me, and watch me flip green. It'll be tons of information that nobody will use.

On July 06 2012 23:39 JingleHell wrote:You have yet to ask me anything worth my time or effort in answering, but feel free to get me mislynched.

On July 06 2012 23:39 JingleHell wrote:I never claimed not to have been part of the shouting earlier, but it's gotten much much worse, since now everyone talking a lot is accusing almost everyone else who isn't.

On July 06 2012 23:39 JingleHell wrote:Me personally, I'll be enjoying seeing what comes at the end of the day, as it will provide us with plenty of information.

On July 06 2012 23:39 JingleHell wrote:For the time being, though, ##Vote Lazermonkey

It's got to be somewhere, and your self-love and expectation that everyone else will dance to your tune strikes me as scummy

On July 06 2012 23:58 Release wrote:
caught up; I think Meta is a horrible form of analysis. + Show Spoiler + But, ingoring the meta, the case on hope1 is still fairly good.

Since i should be back 15 minutes before the deadline, i'll leave my vote on Lazer for now.
One word: deceitful

and Jingle is pulling a half-grush, which i think is never good for town.

On July 07 2012 00:27 BassInSpace wrote:
Jingle, are you saying you don't think Hopeless is scum? If you think this is a mislynch, mind telling us why exactly you think Hopeless is town?

Also FYI Lazer, Jingle was mafia in NMM XVIII, not town.

On July 07 2012 01:06 JingleHell wrote:


You'll get the info of who led a theoretical case against me based off of smoke and mirrors. I would have thought that was obvious, although it might be a bit too substantial for most of the people who took over the thread by screaming at anyone who posted.

You'll get the info of who votes where.

And you'll get the info that I'm still unimpressed by anyone who bases a case off of my (actually succesful) means of getting conversation started. Oh wait, that's been available for a while now.

But like I said, I'm not in the mood to slam repeatedly against circular logic, so I'm waiting to see how the D1 lynch goes, at which point there will be more info to make a read off of.

On July 07 2012 01:15 JingleHell wrote:


Playing badly? Like excessively prolific posts with "reads" based off of nothing, pointing fingers in a million directions at once, creating chaos, and picking and choosing what posts to analyze?

Yeah, you actually can be blamed for that.

On July 07 2012 01:28 JieXian wrote:


ok this is funny I've never felt sleepy while being accused before.

The first 10 pages didn't have anything interesting for me to notice to make "reads" on.

Let me rephrase about TMG, I found his post hard to understand and I'd assume that says something about his comprehension, and hence I'm not going to jump on him yet until I have more information,

[b]This part got me curious. Tell me, where does the action "really matter"?

The more on Mackin would be part of the same post had I been able to edit.

You are a joke. It's a discussion. I read through his filter and found something that fits hapa's analysis.

On July 07 2012 01:34 JingleHell wrote:


Oh look, asks for an explanation, gets it, and says he has to go without responding. Almost sounds like Jiexian in XVIII a couple of times, where he posted in the QT for like 3 hours after telling the thread he was going to sleep. Did I mention he was scum in that game?

On July 07 2012 01:29 JingleHell wrote:




You target me for a laundry list of things.

A: You're offended that I blew off your rather annoying policy post that, you'll notice, nobody else liked either.
B: You don't like me saying that excessive lurking, in absence of clear scumreads, is a valid reason to lynch.
C: You don't have the capacity for sufficient critical though to realize that in a plurality lynch game, an early bandwagon can easily stick.

Your entire initial "read" against me was based on fluff, taking me out of context, and ignoring reality. Why should I bother paying any attention to you later, when you continue to tunnel me, while decrying tunnel vision?

On July 07 2012 15:19 Release wrote:
Well i read the Jingle case and i can't disagree with it.

But it makes me uncomfortable to feel that he is scum, because then YourHarry would be the other scum (those two had a little OMGUS battle and then suddenly reconciled, great way to clutter the thread), leaving no place for Lazer to be scum, which i still think is true. And mackin...

On July 07 2012 19:15 The_Zen_Man wrote:
Cant say im too suprised, as my choice was between hope and lazer, and they were about equally scummy too me(lazer obvously more). But for now, lets just wait out the night.

On July 07 2012 12:50 JieXian wrote:
Oh ya and if anyone wants to check Lazer, don't because there's a high chance he's godfather if he's mafia

On July 07 2012 21:05 BassInSpace wrote:I also think that your logic in giving rabbitz, TMG and Makin town reads is flawed. My case against Mackin already speaks for itself, but rabbitz's last minute vote switch occurred when Hopeless was already set to lynch. Even if he hadn't switched, Hopeless would still have been lynched because he hit 5 votes first. His vote changed nothing. You could even argue that it was an attempt at being on the correct lynch to grab townie cred if you wanted to.

On July 07 2012 23:26 JieXian wrote:Also, I found Lazer's disinterest in the hopeless lynch given all the fire he was causing quite puzzling.

On July 07 2012 10:18 Radfield wrote:

Night 1

Vote Count

Hopless1der (6): Hapahauli, BassinSpace, YourHarry, Lazermonkey, TMG, Evulrabbitz

Lazermonkey (5): Release, JingleHell, JieXian, The_Zen_Man, Hopeless1der

YourHarry (1): Mackin

Hopeless1der, Mafia Role Cop has been lynched!

Night 1 ends in 24 hours at 01:00 GMT (+00:00). Please ensure you send all night actions to BOTH myself and Marvellosity.

I am still trying to replace Khorrus, however if I can't find a replacement before Day 2 I will modkill him.

On July 07 2012 06:50 JingleHell wrote:
How about a little bet, Hapahauli. If Lazer flips Red, we lynch you tomorrow for your (getting ridiculous) defense of him.

If he flips town, lynch me.

On July 07 2012 10:16 JingleHell wrote:


He's set to be lynched. Sounds defeated to me.

I'm mostly wondering how you could see me and Lazer being on the same side, when I'm a heavy part of the drive behind the votes on him. Which almost saved hopeless. Now if hopeless flips red, which I doubt, I could see me looking bad, but if he flips green, I'm looking at Hapa, who was overly defending Lazer by pushing hopeless.

On July 07 2012 10:18 JingleHell wrote:
Oh, am I going to die at the end of the night for it, Hapa? I would expect you to be in a position to know. Hell, if Hopeless flips green, you're a bigger target than Lazer, because looking like you want to save someone who isn't scum could easily be a scum tactic to push a second mislynch, if things were townie vs townie.

On July 06 2012 23:46 The_Zen_Man wrote:


I have read the Hapahauli and Hopless discussion. What particularly caught my eye was Hapas post on Hopeless previous behaviour in a game where he was town, and what a sharp contrast it was too his play in this game. Hopeless is Mafia.

##Vote Hopeless1der

Btw, i am going to be away for about 2 hours.

On July 07 2012 03:12 The_Zen_Man wrote:
My analysis of Lazermonkey.



This was his first post in the game. He start by making a big post and trying to look like someone who is helping town by giving them advice, such as this. I wont go into to much detail into this post, as it has already been talked about a lot.



After a few post, when jingle starts to get suspicous of him, Lazer writes a very long case. It may look like it is big, but it has almost no substance at all. He simply states that there is no threat of bandwagoning. Mafia tend to want to do this, posting long cases but with little of worth, so that it looks good. .He also proceds to vote on Jingle. Lazer proceds to tunnel Jingle for the rest of the game. Here, he effectively turned the attention from him and to Jingle. Lazer also post some aggressive post to anyone who is somewhat suspicous of him.



Aside from his tunneling jingle, he agrees of what other peoples scumtells are. In this post, he basically repeats what Hapa said, and makes it look like it is somewhat orignal. Mafia often tend to agree with other players, so that those players like them more and agrees with them in a discussion.



Then he post this. After i had only posted one post on Mackin, he makes it bigger than it is and says i am "overreading". Mafia often tend to blow stuff up, and make other people look bad (and therefore make themselve look better).

He also says that talking about how mafia will play is impossibble, but that would in fact mean that analyzing is pointless. If we would follow his advice, no one should analyze. Very scummy.



Here, Lazer states his support for yet another person who seems scummy. As i said before, agreeing with everyone is a way for mafia to win favor among town.

Lazer then goes on to a back and forth post with Jingle, with not posting much of worth. But something that was really scummy for me in that post was this.



This post had a really scummy sentence, "I will push people I think are scummy. If they flip green because they play bad, i can't be blamed for that". This is an excuse mafia use often when they are pushing a mislynch. Often, it is not because bad play but because mafia manipulated the game.

Lazer then says that he leaves and continues posting from his phone. As of now, i am equally suspicous of Lazer as i am Hopeless, still unsure of who to vote for. Other players opinions are welcome. But for now ##FoS Lazermonkey

On July 07 2012 05:52 The_Zen_Man wrote:
I have already stated my reasons for doing this in my analysis, i was just unsure if i should do this. But i have made up my mind

##Vote Lazermonkey

On July 08 2012 10:04 Release wrote:
very unlikely that the two remaining scum is among those who voted for me.

the remaining 2 scum is among:Release, JingleHell, JieXian, The_Zen_Man, Khorrus(replacement) and Mackin

These are 100% contradictory and mentally retarded. Correct me if i'm missing something but
you just said "no they're not" and "yes they are" in close succession

On July 08 2012 15:13 Hapahauli wrote:
Alright so we have three confirmed innocents. Not to thrilled with the track on Evul, but that's just semantics and we're in pretty good shape.

As such, this is the list of people who haven't been proven innocent via roleclaim/bluecheck

Hapahaulli
Release
Mackin
The_Zen_Man
BassinSpace
LazerMonkey

One Medic, four townsfolk/miller, and one Mafia RoleBlocker.

I want to be able to take two cases to the lynch deadline (just incase our primary read ends up roleclaiming medic). Everyone on this list needs to be questioned (including me). We need to make sure we take the most convincing case to the gallows.

On July 08 2012 19:42 The_Zen_Man wrote:
Yo monkey man, eating bananas?

No but seriously, should hapa not be taken away from that list?

On July 08 2012 19:35 The_Zen_Man wrote:
Just caught up to what has happened. This game seems to be pretty much over, as i don't think that 1 mafia can win against 9 town. Imo, mafia should give up.

I know i said that more would come on the monkey before, but im not sure it is necesary now. If people still wants it, i can write it, otherwise it would just be a waste of time.

On July 08 2012 19:53 YourHarry wrote:


The medic will always be cleared, if not now, later. Medic claiming is so anti-town at this point. Medic will die, and tracker will be role-blocked. And we are OK as long as detective checks someone other than miller. But if he checks miller, there is a decent chance we might lose.

If medic does not claim, we have almost 0% chance of losing. I outlined all the strategies above, including detectives and tracker publicly announcing their planned targets.

Kill me. It's for the best.

On July 09 2012 05:32 Release wrote:

i don't see why not. It would be a marvelous mind-fuck. I mean the case against hope1 was just so easy for him. Just there, boom, refutes everything. Hope1 goes silent. GG to hope. Hope probably wanted to continue his XIX anyways.

On July 09 2012 06:17 Mackin wrote:
Who are we suspecting at the minute then?

Is it me, release, hapa and most likely Xen?

On July 09 2012 06:26 Hapahauli wrote:


I'm going to assume you meant my case against Release, and I appreciate the comments.

The majority of my case isn't based around Release's activity - its based on his posting style. Several of his posts on day one are massively out of character with his townie persona. Release in his other three games is never unsure of himself, never wishy-washy, and will never passively fingerpoint people. I'm sure he didn't receive any advice to start doing this, yet look at some of these posts:

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=349066&currentpage=13#248
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=349066&currentpage=19#368
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=349066&currentpage=21#409

Townie Release NEVER posts ANYTHING in his townie meta similar to the 3 posts above

He is fickle about his opinions, sounds passive, and fingerpoints multiple people within individual posts. Not only is it out of character with Release's town meta - its out-of character in a mafia-oriented way. My case on Hopeless was built on the exact same meta argument - Hopeless was being different from his town meta (being passive/diplomatic/fingerpointing) with mafia motives.

I'll give some more detailed comments on your case about Zen tonight, but from what I've seen so far, Zen has been far too quiet for me to make a solid judgement.

On July 09 2012 07:29 JingleHell wrote:Of course, it's also possible Zen is actually the DT, and Evulrabbitz is scum, but Zen knows that in the current circumstances a counterclaim would be a waste of time.

On July 09 2012 07:45 Evulrabbitz wrote:
If we just look at how my actions have affected the game I think we can conclude I am not scum:

Made the final call to kill Hopeless. Saved the whole of day2 from a crusade against Jingle(and possible lynch).

On July 09 2012 07:46 JingleHell wrote:


No, I understand that it's incredibly likely he's the DT.

Or were you suggesting that it's absolutely impossible for people to lie? Just because under the circumstances it seems improbable that he's not the DT doesn't mean he must be the DT. Of course, you're so focused on being smarter than everyone else that you're not willing to think outside the box.

Why didn't you quote the part where I mentioned that I was talking about WIFOM to the point of absurdity? Because you were too busy wanting to try and beat me over the head with your ego? Pretty much.

On July 09 2012 07:53 JingleHell wrote:


No, you're so fucking busy trying to be king shit that you can't understand the purpose of the post, and the reason I went with something absurd.

I'm guessing you've still got your panties in a bunch over me dismissing your long-winded first post and actually succeeding at starting the conversation with sex toys.

On July 09 2012 07:53 Evulrabbitz wrote:
When is the end of the day? In 2 hours?

On July 09 2012 08:04 Evulrabbitz wrote:
I don't think I want to reveal my intentions for the nightly investigations just yet

On July 10 2012 07:53 Lazermonkey wrote:
I'd say Tracker and DT should NOT claim. The only advantage we would get by saying who to investigate is to avoid checking the same person. But I fail to see a scenario where both of them will get info anyways(at least one of them should get RBed/killed).

On July 10 2012 08:35 YourHarry wrote:The advantage is publicizing who they are investigating simply lies in the fact that it will prevent DT and tracker to target the miller at the same time. It is possible that miller is already dead or will die tonight. But otherwise, we want to make sure that he won't be targeted by both DT and tracker. As long as we ensure this, and if scum picks the wrong combination of RB/NK target, then our victory is guaranteed.

On July 10 2012 11:49 YourHarry wrote:


We either get two reads, or 0 read.

If we get two reads, we win; unless both reads pointed to the same player who turned out to be the miller.

On July 10 2012 13:04 Hapahauli wrote:LazerMonkey - Votes for JingleHell, posts lynch "wish-list" supspecting Jingle/JieXian/Hope/TMG, then changes vote to Hopeless when the vote total gets close at the end. Slightly suspicious, but his posting tone/analysis has been very pro townie so far, and I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.
BassinSpace - Voted for Hopeless early, pushed for his lynch, no vote changes.

On July 12 2012 05:28 YourHarry wrote:


Come on. In your scenario, detective has no power because whoever he checked out, he would have received "guilty". Lynching either A or B would have equal probability of being scum, exactly 50%, regardless of detective's night report.

Funny thing about scum hunting is that a player who acts scummy are often town and vice versa. In average, we hope that identifying scummy motivations in players' posts would allow us to choose players who are more likely to be scums. But there is a limit. In all my experience of playing scum, so many times I have been wrong lynching a player who I thought was scummiest. I continue to try to improve my scum hunting skills, but I am not confident that I will be able to identify scum 50% of the times in our current scenario.

Regardless, as Hapha and I have previously discussed, it does not matter whether we lynch Bass now or later - as long as we lynch him today or on day 5. Posts like these, however, makes me get this over with and lynch Bass whether or not he is miller.

On July 12 2012 05:33 YourHarry wrote:


I tried to answer your questions. Let me know what questions were unanswered or not satisfied with.

I strongly recommend lynching Bass today. For reasons previously stated. I am willing to repeat these reasons and discuss them further upon requests.

On July 12 2012 05:56 YourHarry wrote:
I also need to repeat that we HAVE to lynch BASS. Either today or Day 5. If you disagree, please state your reasons.

There is literally 50% chance that Bass is scum. If there are outstanding evidence for Bass's townniess, let's even suppose that this chance can go down to 45%. But scum hunting is never this accurate. Not 45% if we have to choose one player out of four or five.

On July 12 2012 05:56 YourHarry wrote:Many of your thought that Zenman was the scum. There was so much "evidence" toward it. You all voted him. Guess what, he's a medic.

Many of you thought that Release was the scum. Again, there was a LOT of "evidence" that he was scum. I voted him. Most of us did.

On July 12 2012 05:56 YourHarry wrote:I still believe scum hunting is useful. It is the one of the means which townies try to achieve victory. While scum hunting is the most common strategy and the only ability available to vanilla towns, but there are other ways to find scum. Stronger. More reliable. One mean include detective's power to check out a player's alignment.

It turns out that his power has been sort of compromised because he unluckily chose either scum or miller. But even with this reduction in power, his power is still considerably stronger. His report, which will be his last, is too strong to go to a waste. We need to lynch Bass. Now or later.

I strongly prefer now, because I think this argument will be forgotten later in the day.

On July 12 2012 06:26 Evulrabbitz wrote:


He clearly states what happened, how can that be downplaying it?



What if the miller flips too late? Keep in mind Jingle said the same about Hopeless. Hapa was very convinced Jingle was Mafia. We all said the same about Release (As YourHarry pointed out).

He never said it was useless, he said that because there is a miller the validity of investigation has been compromised; As in it might not be entirely true.

All you said in that post was plain bullshit.

Anyway. I don't side with Harry, nor do I side with Bass. I believe that keeping BassInSpace alive is not crucial for town victory. What you do need is town-aligned information and viewpoints. Now, if BassInSpace makes his cases; "Who would he lynch first? Next? etc", you still have his viewpoints. If we then lynch him we either get a Mafia and win the game or get a valid source of information there is no need to distrust.

His report, which will be his last, is too strong to go to a waste. We need to lynch Bass. Now or later.

On July 12 2012 06:33 Evulrabbitz wrote:


I already did. Have you stopped reading? I clearly stated it.

What I also clearly stated was why I think your post targeting YourHarry was bullshit, which you seem to have completely ignored.

On July 12 2012 07:20 YourHarry wrote:


What exactly is false about it? We are playing mafia, you are correct. Math can apply to everywhere. Including mafia. We don't HAVE to use what we know about math, but if applying what we know about math can help us win, then we should.

I am not saying that people who act townie should be lynched. I said there is a limit to how much scum hunting can help us. Yes, I voted Bass because he was checked out "red". I was not voting Bass because my scum hunting told me that I think Bass is mafia.

If I was afraid that you guys will come after me when Bass flips miller, then I would have voiced my opinion that we should ignore what the detective has told us and continue scum hunting as if we didn't know that information.

How is it quite clear that he is a miller. Was it clear to you that ZenMan was a scum until he confessed medic? Was it clear to you that Release was scum?

On July 12 2012 20:18 Evulrabbitz wrote:


So you are saying he downplayed that the lynch on Hopeless was successful. Really, I think your post was just a huge misunderstanding on the word "downplay".

On July 12 2012 20:18 Evulrabbitz wrote:

No, he says that since BassInSpace has turned guilty we will need to be lynched sooner or later. He never said if we don't lynch him it will be useless. He says that because he turned out guilty BassInSpace should sooner or later be lynched

His report, which will be his last, is too strong to go to a waste. We need to lynch Bass. Now or later.

On July 12 2012 20:18 Evulrabbitz wrote:

If this is implying that so far we've had at 50% success with regular scum hunting, you are mistaken. If it does not; Please clarify.

We have used regular scum hunting to declare Hopeless, Zen_Man and Release scum. Now Zen_man claimed medic. If he didn't have a blue role he would be dead now, we all know that. so 1/3 have been mafia. that is ~33% success rate.

You could even argue that Jingle would be dead or still pressured had I not investigated him (this is however nothing substantial and I won't use it against anyone).

Your last posts has made no sense to me at all. If you are basing your suspicion on other's arguments against YourHarry, so be it, but right now you aren't making any sense.

On July 12 2012 21:06 Evulrabbitz wrote:


As I understand it, he feels it will go to a waste since you and Hapa does not recognize it. You are both saying it more or less doesn't matter.

On July 12 2012 21:06 Evulrabbitz wrote:

Why is that stupid? There was two major cases, one against Release and one again Zen_Man. Zen_Man was cleared because he claimed blue. The case against Release wouldn't have dropped if Zen was killed and flipped townie.

On July 12 2012 22:08 Evulrabbitz wrote:


Since we had enough information to lynch him already I feel like he wouldn't have lived long should Zen have flipped townie. Especially since the case against Release wasn't born because Zen was innocent. They were two parallel cases and the only reason we picked Zen was because he didn't post a defense, while Release did.

You seem to be building your point (that we've had 50% success rate) on the fact that you do not believe Release would've been lynched since the lynch on him was a follow-up case from Zen being innocent.

This is just my take on what would transpire, however; Just as this makes no real defense for YourHarry, I don't think your points make no real offense against YourHarry.

What I am trying to argue is that the points you brought up on YouHarry are invalid and should not be used against him.

On July 12 2012 21:47 The_Zen_Man wrote:


Derp Derp, you cant know how scum plays, derp derp.

(impersenation of monkey, aka lazermonkey)

On July 13 2012 00:33 The_Zen_Man wrote:


First of all, you were the one that said that you cant know how mafia plays, therefore you cant know how town plays either. And you still dont seems to understand that the percentages do not change, they are still 50/50.

On July 13 2012 04:55 JingleHell wrote:
##Vote Bassinspace

I can't imagine in what world Lazer thinks I'm going to listen to him when he alternates between coercive and insulting every time he vomits forth more ego-ridden horse shit into the thread.

Regardless, kill the miller/scum now, and worry about aftermath later. If Bass is the miller, I'd call that a good time to start looking at who voted where again, and start to reconsider some of our basic premises we've been trying to work from.

On July 13 2012 05:43 JingleHell wrote:


If you'll notice, my vote wasn't the only one on Bass.

Anyway, I think if you're going to suggest that's what's happening, you should consider saying something to the people who actually ruined it? Like the people who basically decided to thump people over the head with their superiority complexes and tell them their play wasn't welcome here? Who then have the sheer, toxic, egocentric gall to suggest they suddenly have some sort of fucking right to tell me who to vote for?

Kiss my ass.

On July 13 2012 07:03 JingleHell wrote:


Well, apparently 5 people (a majority) currently don't agree with you, so I'd have to hazard a guess that you hope in vain.

Maybe if you want people to agree with you, you should provide them with some reason to do so beyond being slightly less abrasive while they're doing so.

Don't make the mistake of assuming that just because I haven't been wasting much time with you, I must be some kind of pushover. I just have this strange thing about not wanting to waste copious amounts of my free time dealing with someone like you.

On July 13 2012 07:03 YourHarry wrote:


Please re-read what I have typed. Please re-think what you are saying. And please, tell me how my logic was flawed.

On July 13 2012 07:05 YourHarry wrote:
Lazer, what's the probability that I am scum?

What's the probability that Makin is scum?

On July 13 2012 07:22 Mackin wrote:
Yes Lazer. What is the probability that Harry / me is scum?
It certainly isn't as good as the at least 50% we've got against Bass.

On July 13 2012 07:32 JingleHell wrote:


I take it personal because you made it personal. Don't cry about not getting to control the results when that happened.

I don't agree that reads get inherently "better" later in the game, because, in this game, the best read came day 1. All the other decisive reads since then have been wrong, so clearly, taking the 50% chance sounds pretty damn good when compared to the 25% accuracy of reads.

You're still doing the "beat people over the head with ego" thing, by the way. I suggest if you're going to learn how to not do that, you do it quickly, because I leave for TKD in 20 minutes, and at that point, I'm locked in.

And you're better at repeating yourself than reading, because I've already explained why my vote is where it is several times. Just because you don't like the rationale doesn't make it less reasonable. As evidenced by the fact that quite a few votes are pointed that way.

On July 13 2012 08:46 YourHarry wrote:


So you are saying that my logic is flawed because we are fucked when Bass flips scum...

But IF Bass is scum, we are fucked UNLESS we lynch him

And there is a high probability that Bass IS scum. Based on detective's report.

AND even if Bass is miller, we still have two additional attempts to lynch the scum.

And you seem to think coin flipping is bad... If I could get a coinflip on scum hunting, I would be the greatest mafia player ever in this world. By Far. Hands down.

We WANT coinflips. We WOULD BE ECSTATIC! (Except for the fact that we would be even MORE ECSTATIC if evul checked out one of the townies that would have given us 100% victory )

On July 13 2012 08:47 YourHarry wrote:


Why don't you like in speaking in percentages? Please estimate the probability of Hapa, Bass, Mackin, and YourHarry being scum. I know exactly why you don't want to give percentages... It would make all of this argument in lynching Bass foolish.

On July 12 2012 10:14 Evulrabbitz wrote:
The first post is of no particular importance.

His first post of substance is dedicated towards first counter-arguing some of Hapa's arguments against TMG but then backing up Hapa's case with a few of his own arguments.

The next few posts are about a misunderstanding with Lazer.

Now on to the interesting stuff.

When the misunderstanding is cleared up BassInSpace opens his next post with agreeing with Hapa on the Hapa vs Hopeless discussion. By this time, Hopeless1der has already made an unforgivable mistake as scum. He has outright lied! This means that within three days, he will be dead. If Lazer was killed the first night, It would have been either Jingle or Hopeless up for the next lynch. If then Jingle was killed (or investigated) Hopeless would be next. Now, BassInSpace's only option is to jump on the case against Hopeless early so he can avoid later suspicion. This has worked with both Hapa and Lazer, as their key point in his townie play seems to be this incident. What this does with BassInSpace's credibility is obvious as we can see the result. TBH, this seems like you are trying to find suspicious behavior when there is none. Note that almost everyone ignored Hapa's case to begin with. He was the FIRST one to actually comment on this case. And not only did he do that, he even agreed and voted for him. This is compared to guys likeMackin who soft defended Hope. Also note that he pushed the case against Hope. In fact, him and Hapa were the only persons to EVER push the case vs Hope. All others voted Hope either because they said they agreed or because they didn't want to lynch me.

He continues the very same post with making a case against Zen_Man. The credibility of this case is irrelevant. This is his back-up should someone other than Hopeless get lynched.

He finishes his post saying that Hapa's point and Hapa's meta case (remember this) make his vote swing in the favor of Hopeless rather than TMG or Zen, the two he previously made cases against.This is just false. Reread please

The next 3 posts are just clarifications. So not important.

The next post on line Is not really that suspicious other than he says he doesn't really like meta, yet his decision to vote for Hopeless was partially based on meta. The rest of this post can be seen as suspicious, but that will ultimately lead to too much WIFOM so I won't go there(E.g he encourages Jinglehell to make a good basis for defense to Hopeless which he then can support).

The following post is quite strange. What I see as important to note here is that he says the lying is the thing that made him vote for, and now keep his vote on, Hopeless. He even says Hapa's other points aren't so strong. Earlier he said that Hapa's case (including meta analysis) made him vote for Hopeless. Somewhat strange, indeed. ''Also, as much as I actually dislike heavy use of meta, it just adds to the 3 main points that I consider are the most damning in Hopeless's case.''No I don't agree with this.

He then starts a little case against Mackin. I won't go into it much, other than it seems like BassInSpace really likes to keep as many balls juggling at the same time as possible. The reason for this is too much WIFOM, I won't go there.

His next posts isn't that interesting. It's just throwing very, very, very mild suspicion on Lazer and YourHarry Link. He says something along the line of "Give us some credit, we can spot a bad case, No one has listened to Lazer and that he doesn't like YourHarry's play.

This post is regarding my little "I am townie" trap which he kinda fell into. Now I said my vote was being deciding in a sense it was not for Lazer, which is to some degree true. The other who opposed this stance (can't remember who) did it because they didn't realize I could vote for Lazer and switch the vote. BassInSpace's mistake was one based on logical conclusion. He says that if Lazer had flipped green(had I chosen him), I would be very, very suspicious, even more so than the person who pushed the case. Now personally I believe that every vote is as important as the other, as in any other "election" (don't know if right word here, but still). It might just have been a late update (which is actually was ^^). If Lazer flipped green, my logical conclusion would be to target the person who lead the case against Lazer, not the one who happened to throw the last vote (which has just as much worth as the other). This is yet an attempt for him to keep as many balls juggling as possible.No, he never even pushed you at all. Just dissmissed that you would look townie after voting Hope as everything else would look scummy. I don't 100% agree with this but it does at least make some sense

Now he hops onto the Release case for quite a few posts, not unexpected for scum. Neither is it unexpected for townie.

He continues his posts with trying to clarify things. A little WIFOM about the probability of Hapa being Mafia. Updates his suspicion against Mackin and YourHarry, keeping the balls juggling (Again; The reason is not clear so can't say this makes him scum).

This post is in response to Mackin who talks about BassInSpace's arguments against him (Mackin). BassInSpace has consistently been trying very hard to not make enemies. He has hold a case against Mackin almost the entire game and now he apologizes for pushing him. Dammit dude, show some decisiveness. You have been suspicious of him all game, yet you do not want to commit to a lynch on him. For that matter, you don't really want to lead a lynch on anyone even though you have so many suspicions.


Now Bass votes for Zen_Man until he posts his defense. So we all kinda sit around waiting. This is how everyone acted so nothing suspicious. The rest is not showing anything suspicious (the whole of page 3 on his filter) apart from maybe this post. Now he conveniently brings up his backup case against Mackin, says he was never really pressured so he had to "poke" him. Now if you found him so suspicious why didn't you lead a case against him? Your answer is always "because other were more suspicious" and you point out quite a few times. Yet you have not actively tried to lynch the more suspicious person, you have more or less agreed with everyone else while keeping slight suspicions on other people.Bass made some good response at these two paragraphs. Go read.

I feel like BassInSpace is kind of an "observer" in a sense he doesn't commit to a case. He simply backs up someones points and follows their lead while keeping some suspicions on other players which he can fall back later on. This also makes him come off as very indecisive. The fact that he first says that Hapa's arguments (including the meta analysis) made him vote for Hopeless, but then says that the sole reason he voted for Hopeless was the outright lie, is quite confusing.

On July 13 2012 09:15 YourHarry wrote:
Also, lazer, why do you think scum roleblocked medic and killed the tracker?

Do you think this was the best option?

On July 13 2012 09:17 YourHarry wrote:
Does Tracker who gets NK'ed still receive a report on the person they investigated?

I don't think Hapha is scum either. If Bass is miller, we lynch Makin.

Tough to choose between Hapha and Lazer though. There is one reason why I don't think Hapha is a scum, which I will reveal later.

On July 13 2012 09:24 YourHarry wrote:


Because I wanted to hear your response first. See above post for why I think Hapha is town.

On July 13 2012 09:33 YourHarry wrote:


I don't trust my scum hunting. Have you played mafia on forums much? I don't know about you, but I am wrong often.

If Bass is miller, I will try my best though.

On July 13 2012 09:46 YourHarry wrote:
Like, I wonder if there is a possibility that our tracker received a "no guilty" report on me, which may be the reason why he did not approve Evul targeting Bass - because I was getting accused at the time.

On July 13 2012 10:02 YourHarry wrote:


How do you know he will flip miller.

On July 13 2012 10:01 Evulrabbitz wrote:
No the "you" parts are aimed at Bass

On July 13 2012 10:08 JingleHell wrote:
Gee, too bad we didn't listen to reason, huh Lazermonkey? Pity we lynched the miller... oh wait.

On July 13 2012 10:32 marvellosity wrote:


Coaches/Radfield probably will... I have too much mafia shizzle on my plate at the moment. I'll try find out