EPTSSB-64 Mafia
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Mister Saturn
Vatican City State155 Posts
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Mister Saturn
Vatican City State155 Posts
On June 29 2012 05:57 GreYMisT wrote: There will be no mister saturn items in this game I'm not an item! I'm a person. | ||
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Mister Saturn
Vatican City State155 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + It doesn't look like we vote for stages beyond our initial selection, iGrok. So no endless Zebes I'd like to hear everyone's thoughts on having the item area selections being randomly generated for everyone. The way I see it, if everyone just picks whatever area they feel like on their own, mafia has an advantage in the item grabbing as they know what their partner will pick and can thus pick different areas to maximize their chances. And I know someone is going to bring up the point of "won't that easily expose mafia, so we should just let them do it". I don't think that's the case since not only are there six areas and only eight characters so the chances of areas having multiple people aren't all that high. So it'll be difficult to identify possible partnerships that way. Secondly, I think the item selection is fairly similar to a PYP number selection scenario (in terms of motivation). Mafia know that if they behave in the optimal way all the time, there's a chance of them being exposed. So they'll probably throw in a "both characters in the same area" at least once. It'd be nice if someone could think of a good way to pick random numbers publicly though. The way that Palmar picked random player orderings might be nice, if someone has a web page and some scripting knowledge. So we could have just have like a script that runs at like 18:00 KST or some set time like that and outputs people randomly into item areas. - Hiro | ||
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Mister Saturn
Vatican City State155 Posts
On July 02 2012 08:14 iGrok wrote: Honestly I'd be fine with going down the list and letting whoever is in that slot choose who goes where. Hm, that could work too I guess. And it's a lot simpler to set up. | ||
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Mister Saturn
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I was the first pick  - Hiro | ||
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Mister Saturn
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Also I have a way to randomize the item picking order, if Toad will allow it. I can use Randomizer to reorder the player list from the first page. Someone will give me a random time to do it at (the website lists the time up to the second under the randomization result). And I can then post a screenshot of it as the random order. Am I allowed to post a screenshot like this? - Hiro | ||
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Mister Saturn
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+ Show Spoiler + On July 02 2012 10:01 HiroPro wrote: No I don't intend for the first person to pick for everyone else. What I am suggesting is that the random ordering picks the spots itself (using the site I linked above). So the first person would be top left, 2nd top mid, 3rd top right, and so on. The 7th and 8th would be in top left and top mid respectively. - Hiro | ||
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Mister Saturn
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I am samus, so as far as I know grush told the truth. We'll have to wait for Cephiro. So for items/stages, how about we do it nice and simple with iGrok's way. So for items, first person goes top left, 2nd person goes top middle, etc. 7th and 8th get top left/top middle respectively. I had some concern initially about doing it this way since iGrok was the one who suggested it and he happened to be first on the list... But thinking about first is actually not a great spot since you get doubled up with someone else. And stages, I guess we can just split it up, so 1st,2nd,3rd get left; 4th, 5th, 6th get middle, etc. You're taking this all caps thing very seriously Toad,  - Hiro | ||
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Mister Saturn
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- Hiro | ||
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Mister Saturn
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On July 03 2012 00:03 kingdedede wrote: Also gonna play devil's advocate on the item placement distribution: if we allow everybody to choose their own spot there's the possibility of making connections between scum (hard, of course, if scum plays it smart, but at least it's theoretically possible). If we use randomized lists, or the initial ordering by Toad, then that connection is out the window. I talked about this in my first post. I don't think there's much we can analyze from that since not only are there six spots and only eight characters, but mafia is also well aware of the fact that if they play too optimally they could get exposed in the late game. I think it's better to just remove the information advantage that mafia would normally possess. | ||
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Mister Saturn
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There is something that I don't get here. iGrok was the very last person in the role picking order. If I was in that position I would have listed four characters, with the first couple being ones that I thought might already be taken. I would think that since iGrok was concerned about what roles are in the game, he would have done a similar thing. But iGrok hasn't said anything like that.... Did you really get your first pick, iGrok? - Hiro | ||
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Mister Saturn
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Mister Saturn
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On July 03 2012 04:06 Risen wrote: That's my gut reaction at first too, but then if you think about it once mafia guys are "found out" we're going to be throwing everything we have at them to kill them. This means they will die fast anyways. A lower total stock pool only hurts town. This is bad logic... Mafia don't just announce themselves and then we kill them whenever we feel like it lol. We don't know who is mafia until they flip. There's also a 2/3 chance that no one takes any damage at all. Not to mention the fact that the worst case scenario is not that everyone gets hit; the worst case scenario is that only town gets hit. And that's something that cannot happen if we do this. | ||
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Mister Saturn
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- Hiro | ||
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Mister Saturn
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On July 03 2012 05:19 Risen wrote: Then why isn't the game balanced around everyone having 2 stock? Or 1 stock? It's 3 stock for a reason. Because it's super smash brothers. 3 stock is standard. - Hiro | ||
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Mister Saturn
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- Hiro | ||
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- Hiro | ||
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Also, iGrok, is there a reason you didn't give any instructions for Marios? Did you want them to only use one spot? On July 03 2012 06:51 Risen wrote: What's better, (potentially) all of town and mafia losing .5kp or only some of town and some of mafia (potentially for mafia, guaranteed for town) losing .5kp. I think option 2 is better for town. That's what it comes down to. You'll have to explain this a little more to me. Because I don't see it. - Hiro | ||
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Mister Saturn
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Mister Saturn
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On July 03 2012 06:02 Mister Saturn wrote: mm, I'm curious. What made you pick Risen over grush to sit out items, iGrok? And why have talismania sit out? He may have volunteered, but thinking about it, if you didn't have any leaning scum reads (which is what it looks like, since you picked a non-poster and a volunteer), wouldn't it have been better to simply put two people who weren't doing anything? - Hiro - Hiro | ||
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Mister Saturn
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- Hiro | ||
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Mister Saturn
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Lynch iGrok now, he's a scum that screwed up and now just wants to ignore it. The revealing role stuff doesn't matter; killing scum is more important. Also I think I get now what happened. When grush revealed that I was samus, iGrok carried me. He screwed up in picking the item spot and now has to just ignore it because he has no explanation. ##Vote: iGrok | ||
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Mister Saturn
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The way I see it, they are posting and around, yet they present no ideas of their own and seem content to merely agree with the general feel of the thread. Looks like scum to me. | ||
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- Hiro | ||
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On July 03 2012 08:15 Cephiro wrote: As said, wanting to hear more from him currently. Due to the small size of the game I find it unlikely that both mafia members would be lurking around, although it's still a viable possibility. I'll wait until he posts thoughts, mostly null on him currently. There is however one interesting bit that stuck out to me slightly: He instantly stuck onto kingdedede's claim whereas everyone else seems to have mostly ignored it. (Or just acknowledged and moved on.) I wouldn't describe their behavior as lurking. It's more of post actively, yet say absolutely nothing. - Hiro | ||
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Mister Saturn
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Do you really not understand why it's scummy to target someone without providing any reasoning, push for a different lynch than the person you think is scum because revealing the role is more important, and then not provide any reasoning for why you think that person is scum..... - Hiro | ||
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Mister Saturn
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- Hiro | ||
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On July 03 2012 09:27 HomerunBat wrote: Yea I kinda did provide reasoning. I pretty clearly read iGrok's derp as a townie mistake, and your reaction to it is telling. Are you still going to shoot iGrok? Also, there are two scum. Grush may be scum, I don't have any idea. I don't think anybody does. I don't want him around in the SSB version of LYLO. Depending on how talismania spends the rest of day 1, I might replace grush with him. I want to hear what Shiao has to say on him too. You're not answering my question. The scummy part of iGrok's play isn't that he screwed up. Townies and scum both screw up. The scummy part is that he refuses to justify it and is pushing a case on someone else despite considering me guarunteed scum (look at the way he mentions me). If I'm still alive night 2, iGrok is eating a bullet. | ||
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Mister Saturn
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On July 03 2012 09:40 Risen wrote: EBWOP: Saturn move your vote to homerunbat, shoot the donkey. That works. But either a captain falcon needs to shoot iGrok tonight or we need to lynch iGrok day 2; otherwise he won't die. ##Unvote ##Vote: HomerunBat | ||
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Mister Saturn
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On July 03 2012 11:06 grush57 wrote: ##Vote: HomerunBat GEEET HIM Is this guy always this useless? - Hiro | ||
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Mister Saturn
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- Hiro | ||
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- Hiro | ||
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Mister Saturn
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Yo, dedede, I'll sheep you to victory, but I'll still shoot iGrok. I'm too mad at to think properly at this point. It's better that we both die, cause at this point's it's screwing all my reads. talismania, your case is bad. You first point is not even true lol; I wasn't pushing Risen at all. I was trying to figure out Risen's twisted logic. Asking questions has nothing to do with alignment. Your other points are all weak, weak, weak. Incidentally, you guys really shouldn't try to use the game mechanics to scumhunt. You probably won't believe me until I die. But w/e, you should listen to me then. For one thing, you have no idea how Toad thinks or has planned, second Toad already screwed up badly in the setup phase (I can't really talk about it any further than that). The role-alignment stuff is fairly worthless. Also, dedede, HomerunBat's recent posts really were not good lol. s0lstice's giant post has 2 town reads (meaningless), a lurker lynch, useless stuff about bus drivers, and then he calls me scum based on the fact that I want to kill iGrok (even though he later admits that iGrok's behavior "doesn't look good"). ShiaoPi's last post is even more hilarious lol. Not only is it just a rephrasing of what dedede said in his post (look at page 16, it's hilarious), but it also ignores the reason that I voted for him (hint: it wasn't because he defended iGrok). - Hiro | ||
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Mister Saturn
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iGrok. You guys won't lynch him and I need to get his stock down to kill him with my first shot. - Hiro | ||
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Can I talk about what happened to me during setup? | ||
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- Hiro | ||
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Mister Saturn
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On July 04 2012 01:36 talismania wrote: On a related subject, Mister Saturn do you really think there are two town Samuses? What do you make of Cephiro? I don't know; it's not inconceivable. He's an interesting guy but I don't have a read on him cause he hasn't taken any concrete stances other than the fact that he liked iGrok's plan. - Hiro | ||
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Mister Saturn
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On July 04 2012 01:42 HomerunBat wrote: I don't understand how you can think iGrok is scum and yet aren't pushing him more. I explained a scenario where his actions could be interpreted as town, but you didn't comment on it. I'm not pushing iGrok more because it doesn't matter; my position in the thread is officially shit and I won't be able to get him lynched. Luckily I have a gun and I can do what I want with it Yes, I saw your thing about him possibly changing his mind and not wanting to admit it. I don't buy it; first because I don't think iGrok is that stubborn that he wouldn't admit that he changed his read, second the way he talks about me indicates that he still thinks I'm strongly scum. - Hiro | ||
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Mister Saturn
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dedede help me out here - Hiro | ||
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- Hiro | ||
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But I actually do agree with you on talismania. Maybe it's just me but the fact that he ignores the actually scummy parts of my play (like the fact that I've basically announced I'm sheeping or my uncertainty about HomerunBat) and focuses on pointless stuff makes me think he's scum. And to be honest he's been pretty unhelpful other than the bad case he made on me. I'm voting for talismania. I'll be back in half an hour. ##Unvote ##Vote talismania - Hiro | ||
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Mister Saturn
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s&b is in Switzerland. I dunno when he'll be back. I haven't been able to talk to him since role-picking  | ||
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- Hiro | ||
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-s+b | ||
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Mister Saturn
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i got to CERN yesterday, worked and then fell asleep. today i also worked and ama about to fall asleep. jetlag can suck balls. So here's my reads after a quick once over of the thread: - Risen - probably not scum just an angry townie. I actually disagree with him about the plan thing but if he was scum it would be a pretty dumb thing for him to draw so much attention to himself over. it just wouldn't be worth it. - Hiropro - idk why he got so mad but whatever he was right. - igrok: trololol. literally no reason for him to have grabbed us and thought we were scum without saying anything at all about it in the thread. Think he's probably scum. I think he really did just derp it up when he put himself in the same slot as us for an item since he was so vehemently surprised that he took damage. I also think that if he's scum there's a decent chance that cephiro may be the scum buddy; dk/samus seems like it makes sense for balance purposes since in terms of sheer firepower the scum having such a low number seems like it requires a vig role on their team. If cephiro is his scum buddy then it makes even more sense for him to donk on us, then someone can vig shot us and etc. - MrDedede - his plan for how to use his bus driving power seems pretty antitown since there is so much more vigilante power in the game than there is scum KP power. IMO he should be taking people he thinks are townie and bussing them with people who are unobtrusive and unlikely to get targeted by scum or by town. IMO a town busdriver would be best used as a protective role rather than an offensive role. Actually wait I think that he should bus drive us with someone scummy and then we should have all our vigs target igrok since that way we don't die when he does. - grush: could be scum, maybe not, i think he trololols and doesn't try in all his games right? - deadline is in an hour? I will not be awake for that lol. - On July 03 2012 08:09 iGrok wrote: Lol saturn, I completely agree with you on HRB. Disagree on Ceph though, because at least he believes in something enough to put up a bit of a fight. - why does hiro think his "position in the thread is shit"? man everyone in this game is so freaking scummy looking. I have like three town reads right now. talismania looking scummy also - tiny ass filter and then calls us out for being noncommittal between igrok and risen lolwat? | ||
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- Hiro | ||
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And any falcons should be hitting iGrok tonight. It doesn't matter if I get hurt. 1:1 trades are good for town. - Hiro | ||
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On July 04 2012 07:57 Acrofales wrote: I don't think I understand what you want me to do. I don't prevent actions on the recipient, I only move any actions that were on my first target onto the second. So if I bus from player A to player B and player B is getting vigi'd and A is getting medic'd, then player B gets vigi'd and medic'd. If both are getting vigi'd then B gets double vigi'd. So back to your post: if I drive FROM someone unobtrusive to a town player, I might as well not drive at all. If I drive from someone townie to someone scummy, then any mafia KB will hit the scumster AND any vigi shots aimed at him hit him too! That is, unless I completely misunderstood Toad's explanation of the bus driver mechanics. Please tell me my explanation is right and the targets aren't just swapped? Read what s&b said again. I'm pretty sure what he means is that you drive from townies to people you find suspicious. So any scum actions on those townies get done on possible scum instead. - Hiro | ||
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- Hiro | ||
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You don't think HomerunBat is scum anymore, Risen? | ||
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On July 04 2012 16:56 HomerunBat wrote: I've been reading past games for like 5 hours, writing shit and deleting it. Pretty horrible night all things considered! Tali- I did come up with some things that I value pretty highly, and one is some insight on Talismania. Acro had mentioned that in his past games with him, Talis came off as extremely town, and fast too. Without knowing anything about his meta, I really thought it was odd how a large portion of his filter was posts about really random junk that pertained to the game, but didn't really help us with our wincon. Reading Bastard Mafia 2 has me strongly leaning scum. Go have a look. click me! He is bold, fearless. He puts on the town leader hat right from his first post. He calls people out, pursues reads aggressively. Compare that to how he plays here. Extremely passive. Acro, I know you were thinking this earlier. Do you still feel the same way? Tali, what's the deal man? Who is scum? Why aren't you pursuing them? The way you are spending your time right now looks way scummy. -s0L Someone using meta and I actually don't hate it!!! No, but in seriousness, talismania is scum. I played with him when he was scum (Pick Your Poison) and when he was town (Bastard 2) and the talismania in this game is really not doing anything. In this game, talismania has spent almost all of his time doing two useless things: speculating about the way the game has been balanced and creating an useless spreadsheet. The first one is pointless simply because no one has actually flipped. talismania knows better than to waste his time thinking about that stuff without the important info that you need. It should be fairly obvious why the second thing is useless; it's essentially like just tallying the votes in the thread. It's a summary of what has already happened; it doesn't require any personal analysis or thinking. I think Acro mentioned earlier that he found tali's reaction to being in the lead to be lynched townie. This is not really a good way to think. Not only are reactions one of the easiest things to fake if you have some experience (it's the actions and reads/cases that matter), but in a game like this where a lynch doesn't even kill a person, it's essentially meaningless. Not to mention the fact I'm not even sure what Acro really thinks a scummy reaction to being lynched would be (beyond the stupid stuff that newbie scum do). - Hiro | ||
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Mister Saturn
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On July 05 2012 01:33 talismania wrote: welp I am town so sorry to disappoint Hiro. @homerunbat I had the benefit of being bold and fearless in bastard 2 because I was a dayvig and had a clear plan of action with that ability. I executed the plan well and shot scum day one. Not only that but there was a lie detector check (of sorts) on me. So I played really freely the rest of that game. I'm kind of liking being the center of attention in this game though. At the moment I consider acrofales/kingdedede almost certainly town. If he were scum he wouldn't have publicly changed his mind about me. Shouldn't have anyway - I would be a great candidate for one of the lynches tomorrow given that I was second in votes today. And I think acrofales would have especially wanted me gone if he were scum given that I just finished playing a long game with him. The same sort of goes for Cephiro although it's a bit weaker. He publicly stated he did NOT want me lynched yesterday. That's strange behavior if he were scum. Like, say grush and I are both town (and I think there's a decent chance he is). Grush is always going to be there as an easy-ish vote to push for scum. But getting damage on me day 1? That's a great opportunity because I'm an active and thorough player and most people here know that. It could be that cephiro made his ranking thing and wanted to stick with it though, in which case there's still the chance he was scum so I'm not ruling him out entirely. This certainly does not apply to Mister Saturn / HiroPro. Both Hiro and S&B know I play actively and that I don't miss much of anything that happens in the thread. After Hiro flailed around a bit trying to latch onto a target I think he was glad to find me. And his certainty in pushing me is consistent with scum behavior. Still can't figure out who the partner is which admittedly is rather troubling. I was tempted to say Homerunbat because of his recent post about me but that doesn't really make sense given that hiro at one point was voting for him without resistance. Also, the fact that ShiaoPi switched the vote from me to grush isn't consistent with that either. I can't think of a really solid reason in general that scum would want grush dead over me. Maybe if scum were afraid that grush might have falcon, knowing that he went for samus first? I guess that's a possibility, but doesn't really make too much sense given that lynches don't kill outright. _______________ Call to action: this is an 8-person game. To expand on what acro is asking for, everyone should be posting their reads of everyone else, at least once a cycle. In a thirty person game this sort of thing is cumbersome, but in a game this small it is essential. It forces scum to talk about themselves and everyone else, the more we make scum lie the better, yadda yadda. I'll keep compiling people's reads and such in the spreadsheet/document as they happen. ugh bro just ugh the "everyone post your reads on everyone" plan is just as antitown as it was in bastard 2 where it was just as antitown as it was in ace's game (bang bang 2 I think) the first time you proposed it it lets scum blend in, we can gain a lot of valuable information from who does and doesn't post about who etcetera we don't want to create some framework with established criteria for being townie or not being townie. That just gives scum a "how to be townie" guide. | ||
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Mister Saturn
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- Hiro | ||
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On July 05 2012 07:17 talismania wrote: well shit I was just thinking maybe risen was mister saturn's partner. grush why did you shoot risen? I know you're not this bad. | ||
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If you're going to lava push me, I don't really care at this point. You can go ahead. I think dedede is town and that means grush is probably scum. I'll be be interested in what iGrok has to say. It's July 4th, so I won't be around today. ##Vote grush57 | ||
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- Hiro | ||
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On July 05 2012 07:31 Mister Saturn wrote: Sorry, I just got annoyed. If you're going to lava push me, I don't really care at this point. You can go ahead. I think dedede is town and that means grush is probably scum. I'll be be interested in what iGrok has to say. It's July 4th, so I won't be around today. ##Vote grush57 ugh bro so dumb just ugh Even if hiro doesnt care i do we're town so don't push us. idk what is up with all this depression going on from hiro but anyway like I told hiro, right now I think talismania and igrok are probably scum. I feel like igrok should have posted something by now? I think risen is probably town so i'd rather not push him. It's also super dumb to push risen because we think grush is scum and risen might be a scumbuddy like talis seems to believe; go for one scum at a time, don't try to find hypothetical scumteams based on connections with people you don't even know are scum yet. If we think grush is scum then we should push grush. Personally I think grush has a pretty good chance of being scum, since he's definitely not on the "wow that guy is playing super townie" side of the ledger. So I would support pushing / lynching grush, talismania, or igrok at this point. Also - proposal - how about we combo lynch/push the same person so we actually have a chance of seeing a flip sometime in the next century? One last thing - normally i don't like asking people to reveal town reads but dedede you've already said you think cephiro is town. Would you mind telling me why? I had a pretty null read on him so far except for some setup speculation which made me think either he's scum or a captainfalcon is scum. -strongandbig | ||
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SandB | ||
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So then like I don't understand the thought process that would make grush claim the hit if he was scum. If he was scum he would know that the "normal" scum hit and his own shot were on Cephiro, so when he sees that Risen is down 2 stock, why the hell would he claim a shot? Why not just make everyone consider the possibility of a second captain falcon. Why incriminate yourself by claiming the shot. Unless he totally didn't consider the possiblity of a bus driver and just assumed that saying he shot Cephiro who didn't take any stock loss would make himself confirmed town..... - Hiro | ||
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i'm probably gonna vote to push talismania. And @risen: the problem is i think he could have done more damage to town if he hadn't revealed that he was the yoshi, that would be like a super double-think scum move. I guess its possible though. | ||
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Mister Saturn
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On July 05 2012 20:55 iGrok wrote: The Reasoning behind everything When I got my role, I decided to play like Palmar. I would lead the town Day1, be balls-to-the-wall aggressive, and force scum into slipping that way. I don't really play this style ever, but I wanted to try it out. To start off, Town needed some information to work with. Not a full massclaim, but something to keep D1 from being a random lynch. That's why I asked everyone to claim if they got their first choice. If we learned anything by doing this, the rest of the town roles (kirbys, yoshis, Ness, DK). As it turned out, this confirmed Saturn and Cephiro to be samuses, not because Grush claimed not-first pick, but because they confirmed it. This also means that grush was telling the truth, which as scum he shouldn't want to in that situation. dedede's claim was really unexpected but I like it, as long as there was Town KP they'd draw the shot before a busdriver. Ceph and Saturn don't have to be one scum, but it was very likely. So I picked one of them to carry. Gut feeling said Saturn was scum, so I carried him Then we needed a way to deal with items and locations. By making one person each night pick, I'd be able to learn their motives, and by going first I would see who tried to do anti-town things instead. The first list was literally running down the order. Then I decided to change things up a bit. I pulled out Risen and sat out Tali. Risen had posted a total of 1 times, so I sat him out. And I felt like Tali was sheeping me a little because his reads were similar, so I sat him as well. Then Risen exploded, and that fight was... revealing. At the time, to me he felt like a dumb townie more than scum, but he got a Grey box (I use Green, Red, and Gray shades to mark people - Gray means somethings not right but I don't get a strong scum vibe) Unfortunately, I derped on my own location, but this was almost ok because it generated a fight that revealed something about Saturn. Saturn hates me and plans on shooting me, yet doesn't try to lynch me. This is a huge red flag, and solidified my scum read on him. I still felt that one of Ceph and Saturn were scum. So, rather than lynch into them, I figured that we could let scum tell us. I wanted to wait on my reads until the next day to see who they shot, and then go after the other as scum. There was a small chance that neither was, but I'm basically playing a game of probabilities. I wanted something to work with on each player. That's why I suggested lynching lurkers. I already had reads on the non-lurkers, but I needed something to work with on Grush and Tali to find the remaining scum. And it seemed to work pretty well, as voting for them got them typing and lynching grush gave us something to work with. Imagine if we hadn't found out grush was a Falcon. You think he would have claimed the shot? With his activity record? I don't think so. Honestly, what happened last night is obvious. Scum1 and Scum2 (grush) shot cephiro as a town kp that most people agreed was town. Thankfully, dedede bussed ceph out of the way, and Risen got shot instead. Unfortunately, this means I'm also down to 1/2 kp damage. So the remaining question is who is the last scum? The answer is not quite that simple. Its either Risen or Mr.Saturn. The fact that Saturn said he would shoot me but didn't try to lynch me. Yeah, he voted for me but there was 0 pressure behind it. Saturn's behavior is incredibly scummy. And yet, he isn't who we should lynch or push. Assuming that all scum are included in the set of [grush, Risen, Saturn], town has this game won by tomorrow. We push Risen. This kills him. It will also kill me, but I'm ok with that as long as town doesn't derp. Odds are he flips scum, but Regardless of Risn's Flip, we lynch grush, who we know is scum. This kills grush. So now, 2/3 scum candidates are gone. Finally, if Risen wasn't scum, Ceph can shoot Saturn at night, and lynch him the next day (or somehow do .5 damage to him). This is how you win and cover all your bases. Again, sorry this is late, I crashed after the 4th of July party last night. ##Push: Risen ##Vote: Grush bro this is kind of believable, i'll have to ask hiro what he thinks about it though. when you say that we wanted to shoot you but not lynch you I'm not sure whether you're referring to: (A) hiro when he was on tilt for w/e reason after you picked us up, who was basically like "argh fuck this shit argh i want igrok to die but i'm too mad to try and persuade anyone that i'm right" (B) me saying we should kill you with vig hits so the busdriver could protect us. I now know that this would not work since bus drivers don't protect from donkey kongs but whatever there was a good reason there why shots would have been better than lynches. Anyway, I still think Talismania might be scum. However I'm fine with pushing risen (I'll have to see what hiro thinks before we change our actions) since he might be scum (although I don't think he is, i still think his explosion at the start seemed townish) and since I still think you might be scum who is only just now trying the "bwahaha, I planned it all along I was playing scummy on purpose to see how people react" gambit. Why do you think risen is more likely scum than talismania? Also I get that your whole thing up there is based on your reads of peoples' reactions to your scummyness but it's worth pointing out that you don't tell us why you have changed your mind to think risen is scum now rather than derping town, and you also haven't said anything about me and hiro except "we wanted you to die but didn't push your lynch enough". | ||
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I don't believe iGrok's statement, but he's willing to die along with Risen, so it doesn't really matter at this point. If he's scum and doing this, he probably realizes that with only 0.5 stock left, he's dying pretty soon no matter what he says. Pushing Risen will kill iGrok too, so I'm fine with that. If neither of them is scum, the scum team is talis and HrB (I have a town read on dedede, so ceph is town too). If risen, it's grush; if iGrok, it's talismania. I find it really hard to believe that a scum grush would claim the shot like that. So I'm thinking that the scum team is talismania and iGrok right now. The fact that talismania is the only person other than me who is actually considering that grush might not be scum only bolsters that belief. I'll be going item:top left and pushing Risen. Yea, I'm pushing someone I'm leaning town on. Think whatever you will; I don't care. At this point, I just want iGrok dead and this will do it. - Hiro | ||
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I think grush just happened to shoot the same person as scum. I just don't see why scum grush would claim. | ||
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On July 06 2012 00:01 iGrok wrote: GG, I won the game, scum plz surrender already. As wise man Drazerk once said, the people who say this are almost always scum. - Hiro | ||
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On July 06 2012 02:23 Risen wrote: Then who's the scum team? Igrok or homerun and tali? Igrok's play doesn't make sense as scum (doesn't make sense as town either, though) Yea, I think it's iGrok and talis. If somehow it's not iGrok, it's HomerunBat. | ||
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- Hiro | ||
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On July 06 2012 02:30 HomerunBat wrote: also I really liked the "you're just bad" defense Sadly that's the only thing I can say to bad players like you, who see everything I do and go "oh he's scum for that". | ||
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And at this point I know you're just trying to intentionally irritate me. | ||
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On July 06 2012 04:19 iGrok wrote: I've seen enough towns derp away a sure victory that I want to be sure. Especially since you (Hiro) seem insistent on mucking about in thread. S&B is playing with a level head, while you still seem to have your panties in a wad because I made you lose a stock. Bring S&B back, he's frankly better than you despite putting in (what seems like) less effort. Oh lol. You and I both know that it's not about the stock loss. But w/e, you're dying. | ||
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=strongandbig | ||
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On July 06 2012 04:48 iGrok wrote: and S&B who is your other read? you or grush ATM im a little less sure about you than i was before your "hey wait guys i actually do give a fuck" post but it's too easy for scum to say that to come back from being found out or whatever so i'm not feeling giving you a free "actually he's town after all" pass. I think risen is probably town but he could be scum i thought cephiro might be scum for KP balance reasons but grush could be that also | ||
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i mean, ideally we would discuss with each other what our reads are and what we should do about them, i've just been really shitty about that since i just moved to freakin' europe and have to work like twelve hours a day now i actually think the best kind of hydra is the secret one where you pretend you're just a smurf or whatever and not a hydra at all, but that wasn't really an option this time since everyone knew we would be a hydra | ||
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anyway talismania is still scum. i guess grush is the other one? but if he's not then its probably homerunbat. -strongandbig | ||
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I kinda feel like an idiot now for letting it occupy me so much.I should explain why I got so annoyed and why I thought so strongly you were scum. I became a little suspicious of your intentions when grush revealed that both Cephiro and I should be Samus. I could understand why you would want to generally know what roles were in the game, but the fact that the players who had one of the strongest roles were just revealed to the entire thread like that seemed bad to me. And then you decided that you were going to pick items/stage spots and that was fine; it seemed like a good way to know more about what you were thinking. But then the item thing happened and I was confused for a little bit as to what happened. You seemed like you didn't know either and that worried me as you were the person who made the game so I thought you would know better than anyone else why certain things happened. Losing stock annoyed me a little, but it wasn't a huge deal. When you refused to explain why you would carry me though, I kind of lost it. The whole point of a single person picking the items and stages in my view, was so that we could learn about what that person was thinking and evaluate them. The fact that you refused to explain why you would carry me (beyond the "oh looks like I messed up, but it's ok cause I hurt scum lololol") struck me as really anti-town and irritating as hell. The fact that you didn't want to lynch me that day but felt it was a good idea tomorrow was just like icing on the cake. And the statement that you made today really didn't help, as I felt that many of the things you said about me were reasons that I thought you were scum and it looked to me like you were twisting that around to try to apply to me. The reason why I didn't go completely insane in trying to lynch you was partly because I couldn't see any support for your lynch and partly because a lot of the games I've been in or watched (Magic and Movie Star especially), two townies have completely destroyed the thread by going after each other very early on. I didn't want to make the same mistake if I was wrong, especially not when I was playing as a hydra. Your general behavior in the thread (the pictures and your tone) and the way you acted so sure of yourself and dismissed my efforts to not throw everything to pieces also annoyed me. I feel like I've said everything that I want to say. This isn't something that I'm going to let affect me in the future. If you want to discuss this further iGrok, send me a PM. | ||
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S&B, you have talismania as your strongest scum read also, right? I think we should lynch him today and shoot him at night. HomerunBat is probably the other scum. If we're wrong, we can always lynch grush. | ||
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- Hiro | ||
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If you can (I know that you are probably busy considering you are at CERN), try to come onto IRC during US afternoon(#TLMafia on Quakenet). Or we can use the QT that I sent you in like the 2nd PM if that works better. But this delayed PM thing is really not working. | ||
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On July 06 2012 07:29 HomerunBat wrote: @Mr. S cephiro was right about the finger pointing. it starts and ends with the filters, if you really think I'm scum, make a case. I have to say that your actions leading up to this deadline, are giving me doubts. I'm also trying to think of what Tali has done that has helped town. I still think we lynch grush today. The one thing that has me convinced is that he kept calling cephiro scum after it was extremely clear that the scum kp was aimed at him. Afterwards, he said something along the lines of it being an elaborate scum conspiracy. Hm, this is true. idk, I really need to read this entire thread again. I'll give out my thoughts again tonight. If you are town, please consider the fact that I just might be town... I know my play has been weird and pretty bad this game but that doesn't make me scum. If we lynch grush today and he turns out to be town, we still don't lose, right? Cephiro and we can both shoot talismania tonight and we can still win by getting HomerunBat right after? - Hiro | ||
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+ Show Spoiler + On July 06 2012 13:33 HiroPro wrote: Man this game is so fucked up. I can't even figure out grush at this point... I'm going to talk to s&b tomorrow before I decide what to do. The chances of an independent shot being the same as the mafia shot is pretty low... It's weird as hell for a scum player to reveal that they made a shot like that but it's also really strange from a town perspective to shoot someone who you didn't even mention the day before (especially when there's two people who you called scum available to shoot). And connections are so shit to use when you don't have dead scum to make them off... But with grush, I have literally no other way to figure out his alignment, lol. I just don't see a scum team that grush could be part of (talismania+grush is laughable (2 scum up for lynch on day 1, lol? not to mention grush voting for talis), HrB was a fairly key vote in grush being lynched), the other combos are also pretty lolworthy. So what the hell is grush.... | ||
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I should still talk with s&b, though. | ||
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+ Show Spoiler + I don't know where s&b is, but I think he would agree with me. We've had talismania as a strong scum read for most of this game. I think HomerunBat is mostly right on talismania; talismania has not been scumhunting very much and the majority of his time has been spent on doing useless things like speculating about the roles when no flips were actually made or making spreadsheets. iGrok said something about scum being unlikely to make a spreadsheet like that because then they can't contradict their reads. I think this is wrong; look at what talismania actually did himself on the spreadsheet: he listed me as a scum read and then said that everyone else is leaning town, that's complete trash. It's awfully easy to not contradict yourself when all you do is say yea I think this person is scum but I can't figure out anyone else who might be on his scum team and everyone else looks town to me. I think the meta argument has been brought up enough times, but the simple truth of the matter is, talismania is a good town player, but he's put in no effort into actually scumhunting this game. I'm not really sure what grush is, but I am almost certain that talismania is scum. ##Unvote ##Vote talismania | ||
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How do I know this? Look at the spreadsheet link. talismania hasn't even bothered to update it with his read on grush, even though he spent so much time saying how amazing it was. - Hiro | ||
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On July 07 2012 05:07 kingdedede wrote: Alright, I'm home. My first instinct is to keep the lynch on Grush. The counterpressure that started to develop on Talis makes me happy as it makes it a real possibility. Tali's post makes sense and if Grush flips scum we'll know where to look (hi MisterSaturn). His play has also been lackluster. There's not a single post in his filter longer than two sentences which is pretty much as antitown as it gets, as it gives almost no information about his alignment other than that he's not willing to put in the effort to help town. Hiro/Saturn, what do you think of Tali's recent post? I think he's scum. He talks about me being scum but then all he can support with is hypothetical statements about me being frustrated and partners with grush. And then he spends the rest of his post talking about possible scum team partnerships and why they may/may not work. Artanis, he's flat-out ignoring scumhunting. He made absolutely no attempt to logically refute the things that HomerunBat and I have brought up. He talks about how he couldn't possibly be scum because he ate Risen (we have absolutely no way of knowing if this is true - talismania only brought up the fact that he ate Risen after Risen already roleclaimed) and that doesn't even have anything to do with whether or not he is scum - scum want to find out what roles people have also. And then he talks about how scum team combinations don't work with him... - Hiro | ||
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On July 07 2012 05:41 iGrok wrote: Hiro you are really bad at smurfing lol I know I think if I ever do this again, I'm putting my smurf account on my main browser so I don't have to remember to switch browsers. | ||
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On July 07 2012 05:46 talismania wrote: No scum want kp. I would have eaten grush 100% if I were scum I guarantee you. I don't understand this accusation of lack of scumhunting when I've been sure you're scum since near the beginning, with the exception of that time period where I thought it was Risen. I still don't like a Samus + Falcon team though for balance reasons. You've done absolutely no scumhunting except for your initial post on me (in which you admitted that almost everything was weak). Everything you've posted has been connections, mechanics talk, and talking about how certain people are town because they don't go after you. | ||
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- Hiro | ||
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On July 07 2012 06:29 talismania wrote: What the fuck is that statement? Maybe I'm just weird but when I'm town I don't really think about the parts of my play that seem scummy haha. I guess some townies have guilty consciences but still this is an odd remark to make. It's always important to look at the motivations and methods of people who attack you. It's the reason I realized Toad was scum when Radfield made his case in Pick Your Poison. - Hiro | ||
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I had a mixed read on Cephiro day/night 1. I thought he had to be town after the shot since dedede is probably town. But HomerunBat's explanation for why scum might shoot themselves is certainly plausible. Cephiro's activity levels have been quite bad, especially at deadline times, when town should be more active, and scum are more likely to excuse themselves away. The biggest thing thing about Cephiro though is this post: On July 04 2012 05:49 Cephiro wrote: talismania, you need to stop trying to crunch the setup and base your play on your meta-game against the host, you need to start playing the game the way it's supposed to be played and deciding your reads based on the actions of others. If you're not going to step up your play asap, I will push you for lynch. Rank: 4 And no dont try to excuse it away as a connection without a flip. No, Cephiro makes a very direct promise "If you're not going to step up your play asap, I will push you for lynch." talismania's play has been scummy and poor. But has Cephiro followed through at all? No, he's completely ignored talismania . This is a broken promise - it's lying and scummy. - Hiro | ||
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On July 07 2012 06:41 talismania wrote: On another note - how do you get from having a strong town read on dedede = cephiro is town? I mean I agree both are town, but I don't see how you get there from that line of reasoning. Because I didn't consider the possibility that Cephiro might shoot himself if he was scum on a different team. I thought the only way he would do that was if dedede was his partner. And I didn't consider that likely at all. But this is a game with three stock and it's entirely possible that scum can do this. - Hiro | ||
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- Hiro | ||
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+ Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/MAcyH.png) - Hiro | ||
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Yet I've played this game by myself (not blaming you at all s&b, I know you have important stuff to do). | ||
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- Hiro | ||
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+ Show Spoiler + Hey so idk yet whether we have to send in our choice for who to push yet but if we do I propose we push Talismania. I don't see any reason why we need to die with igrok when we have a town busdriver. hey so sorry ive been away i'm at CERN now, it means I'm doing a lot of work - we shipped an experiment here from the US. anyway let's talk a little bit about reads. Here's where I stand right now: Players 1) Igrok ---- probably scum, b/c of carrying us and trololol 2) Cephiro ---- probably scum for setup reasons, scum probably have a samus bc of kp imbalance plus we and cephiro both revealed we are samus yet igrok decided to carry us, why? 3) Mister Saturn ---- town lol 4) grush57 ---- I don't think I've seen him play a game where it actually looked like he was trying. Null read 5) talismania ---- probably scum, i forget why at the moment but that's what I thought last night 6) kingdedede ---- probably town, no reason for scum to reveal that they had a bus driver when they could have used it to screw town over, and it would have been easy enough for him not to claim it's not like there was pressure on him 7) HomerunBat ---- idk. doublenubs. null read 8) Risen ---- probably town, i dont think scum would have jumped into that exact shit flinging fest like he did for such a little reason as to counter igrok's plan; seems more like something an excited townie would do. IMO if scum are trying to jumble up the thread they would do it either by getting emotional or by trying to incite someone else, but not just by getting into a setup discussion. I could be wrong though. So ranking from towniest to least town: 1) Mister Saturn 2) kingdedede 3) Risen 4) HomerunBat 5) grush57 6) Cephiro 7) talismania 8) Igrok | ||
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+ Show Spoiler + Yea, my reads are pretty similar (I have HomerunBat and Risen switched), but otherwise it's pretty much the same. Let's see how iGrok has "solved the game", rofl. And Cephiro has made two big promises. I don't want to talk about them in the thread, because I want to see what he does without pressure. "I will be using my shot as the majority wants to, unless I feel you're about to do something totally retarded, or that scum manipulating the shot is likely (whether it's by gaining control of discussion or having a busdriver/roleblocker/medic)." "If you're not going to step up your play asap, I will push you for lynch." - He's talking about talismania in this one If he doesn't follow through on these by the end of day 2, he's probably scum. I sent in these actions. We can always change it until 24 hours before the night deadline. At this point, talismania is my strongest scum read. The guy is being completely useless. His last post was absolutely hilarious - he's definitely not town. It's July 4th so I'm not going to really be active today. Hopefully we don't get killed during the day (lava/lynch), but it's a strong possibility, cause I've done a pretty shitty job of establishing innocence. Stage: Push talismania Item: Top Right | ||
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I don't believe you. You're dying tonight.- Hiro | ||
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- Hiro | ||
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And if you're actually town, I'll be too sad | ||
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And even if they are actually scum somehow, they've played really well and I wouldn't be ashamed in losing to them. Literally the only thing I've suspected them on is how little Acro has been posting. - Hiro | ||
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But I'm just going with my read on talismania. At this point he has nothing to lose and can act however townie he wants. I'm shooting talismania. - Hiro | ||
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On July 07 2012 08:17 HomerunBat wrote: If cephiro isn't lying he'll shoot grush, so no worries there. No man, it's not that simple. If dedede is scum, we are so screwed because it's like bus driver wifom that the shooters have to deal with. - Hiro | ||
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But man, I'm just going with what I see here. talismania - scum. grush - dunno lol. HrB - town. Cephiro-scummy. dedede - only reason I'm even considering possibility of scum is because of how capable they are and because of the style vibe I got in the beginning. - Hiro | ||
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On July 07 2012 09:06 HomerunBat wrote: look at it like this. if dedede is scum, then he has to have a partner. It's not me and it's not you Saturn. if its grush: he started the bandwagon on day 2 on him in the first place, without the last minute intervention he'd be dead. could have been a pro bus, but unlikely if it's cephiro: he would be in favor of the tali lynch, instead he called us a derp town and walked away. possible, but still unlikely if it's tali: he was the first to vote for him on day 1, and as a result, tali was in pretty serious danger of being lynched. this is outside of the fact that his filter is green as hell. I really hate thinking about connections so much. Like I never ever try to think about them unless it's absolutely necessary (have dead scum and looking for their partners who I'm unsure on). But this game is practically forcing me to do it since I can't see the flips of the people who get lynched. The stuff you said doesn't really make me think that dedede is scum. From the way he's played he's town, and the connections you've shown also suggest he's town, right? So town. I'm going to shoot talismania (I feel like I've said this so many times, lol). I have a scum read on him and scum are perfectly capable of trying to pull a last-second ploy. They play to their wincons too. - Hiro | ||
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- Hiro | ||
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On July 07 2012 13:04 talismania wrote: dedede you need to post to say who you think my partner is since you voted for me. It pretty much has to be cephiro - did you even think about that before you voted? Who else do you think it could be? Hiropro, please consider shooting one of cephiro/acrofales tonight instead of me (lol as if). You can always get me lynched tomorrow. Based on the intra-hydra talk (I ain't ignoring that shit you're all dumb for ignoring any evidence) honestly artanis+acro look the worst. I'm going to switch my carry onto cephiro I guess since it seems like the only thing I can do to convince you guys I'm not scum with him. Hiro I guess that should make your life a lot easier but again please consider just shooting cephiro. That means, [b]grush[b] if you want to hit cephiro again without worrying about the bus driver you can shoot me. Or you can just shoot cephiro. either way. ____________________ Top lessons from this mafia game: 1) Never brag that when you're town, you're so town everyone knows. Apparently that's not always true. 2) When you're town (this goes for everyone in this game) always always always doubt yourself, particularly if you find yourself tunneling the same person for a long time. Assuming I won't be alive tomorrow. It's been fun playing with you! I don't know why I keep posting in this thread, since I'm either pointlessly confirming my correctness or proving even more how wrong and dumb I've been this game. But it's not like I'm even reading any filters or anything at this point, so I might as well do five minutes of speculation. The fact that you think carrying Cephiro is the way to go just makes me go, lol what? If you were town you would realize at this point that dedede+grush is the most plausible scum team. grush+cephiro is so unlikely: no scum team would put 2 KP on their own player when they've already lost 1.5 stock on the other one. Not to mention the fact that it ensures grush has to be bussed. Cephiro+dedede simply has no reason to change the lynch from grush to talismania. You would almost certainly be the lynch right after that and that's even assuming that town doesn't just lose after night, considering that scum has a bus driver to redirect my shot and 2.5 KP of their own.... Dedede+grush at least explains how grush managed to coordinate with the mafia shot, gives a reason for dedede to switch votes, and it's possible dedede just wanted to bus grush and ride by themselves to victory. But instead you pick the person who HomerunBat and I believe to be your partner. Not the people who are most likely to be scum themselves (given the information that you would have as town), but the person who others are calling as your partner. Also, the fact that you are now treating grush as town is incredibly hilarious. If anything, this only further solidifies my belief that you are scum. - Hiro | ||
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But I'm shooting you tonight so either I'm going to find out that the game is still going and thus Cephiro is almost certainly scum or I'm going to find out that town lost. No matter what your alignment is, you're a really dedicated player. If you're town, sorry | ||
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Mister Saturn
Vatican City State155 Posts
On July 07 2012 13:04 talismania wrote: 1) Never brag that when you're town, you're so town everyone knows. Apparently that's not always true. And I never thought this way because you yourself said it. I thought this way because multiple other people (Kurumi and Acrofales come to mind) said this and because whenever I had played with you or seen you play as the game was going on (Pick Your Poison, Bastard 2, Bang Bang 2) I had identified you correctly as either scum or town. And those were all games where I was town/survivor/spectating. | ||
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Mister Saturn
Vatican City State155 Posts
- Hiro | ||
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Mister Saturn
Vatican City State155 Posts
s&b, you can do whatever you like. | ||
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Mister Saturn
Vatican City State155 Posts
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Mister Saturn
Vatican City State155 Posts
I was wrong about you.You were right Die dedede die. ##Vote kingdedede | ||
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Mister Saturn
Vatican City State155 Posts
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Mister Saturn
Vatican City State155 Posts
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Mister Saturn
Vatican City State155 Posts
On July 08 2012 08:00 Mister Saturn wrote: dedede better not get like a hitmonlee lol. (shhh i was hoping he forgot) | ||
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Mister Saturn
Vatican City State155 Posts
And the general meta is off for Acro/Artanis. They've been getting so passive as the game goes on. Acro is much more active and less careful as town and I know that Artanis tends to play very lurky when he's mafia (Mafia LI) | ||
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Mister Saturn
Vatican City State155 Posts
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Mister Saturn
Vatican City State155 Posts
Can you send in the item/stage stuff, s&b? We just have to hope that we don't get into an item fight+electrode or a bad pokeball from dedede (hitmonlee/Snorlax). | ||
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