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On July 03 2012 21:53 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2012 21:48 Keirathi wrote:On July 03 2012 21:09 marvellosity wrote:On July 03 2012 16:01 Keirathi wrote:On July 03 2012 15:42 JieXian wrote:
That last line shows that you're still stubborn after even Kita told you it won't work.
I'm sorry, I wasn't specific in that line. I meant "I know that a no-lynch can work in a majority vote system." Because I've seen it work (and I've seen it not work too, but with a higher success rate than flat out lynching). It was obviously an extremely stupid argument in this case, like I said, because there's no way for it to work. I misunderstood the mechanics, and I admitted that. To repeat, you would have been a much greater asset to town if you'd actually scumhunted and made cases rather than proposing no lynch plans and the like. Also I feel your point on never killing claimed DT is incorrect. It's just sloppy thinking. That isn't helpful at all. Please for the love of god tell me how I could have possibly convinced enough people to vote Jingle or Bio over Esspen (I  ID* have them as the 2 strongest reads in my personal notes) after he basically said "Screw it, I give up" on top of his other scummy actions? So, despite how ultimately ignorant it was, I argued for the option that was at least getting a bit of traction. While I certainly understand your point, there was never a time when I could realistically lay out my reads. And I didn't say never kill the person who claims DT. Or maybe that's what I implied, but its certainly not what I meant. There are certainly times when killing the claimer is the right course of action. I would have killed Vivax in that situation. Of course in this situation he was VT, but he was definitely lying. If you really had a strong read on Jingle, then you push THAT fact, rather than that you shouldn't be lynching the DT (that's how it came across). The best time to lay out your reads is asap. See towards the end, where BassinSpace got a town read on you and figured that Esspen were town and mafia were trying to secure the mislynch? You weren't to know that's what he was thinking. But if you'd laid out your suspects with good cases earlier in the day, then between you/Bass/Monk you could have perhaps worked things out and lynched someone else instead. Again, if I was townie on the final day, I wouldn't have spent my efforts trying to get a no lynch, but instead desperately trying to push through my strongest read. How is town supposed to avoid a lynch on Esspen if you were unwilling/unable to push and make a case on your strongest reads?? Edit: This goes for Vivax too. His play day 2 was just insane. His plan seemed to be to wait until everyone found him scum and then make a desperate DT claim? With all the "I have info later". Noooooooo. You clear your name by pushing your strongest scumread with good logical reasoning and getting town to see your point of view :/
Its so easy to say that when you're in the mafia QT and know that Vivax was checked night 1 and was a VT.
From my perspective, he really only had 2 options. He was either DT, or he was Mafia. Because being a VT and making that claim is just insane, and basically asking to lose the game. I would take the chance on him being DT and just an inexperienced player (it was day2...it wasn't do or die time) 9 times out of 10.
And you're right. I almost certainly could have convinced Bass to vote one of them on the last day. But I felt at the time that I had a better chance of getting a no-lynch than of convincing 2 more people not to vote Esspen. Especially since he had quit posting altogether.
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
Meh @ easy to say. Objectively I would have lynched him. BH and I briefly talked about it at the time and he agreed with me too.
Maybe I'm being too aggressive because you're getting defensive, I'm just trying to explain how I see it. You spent a lot of time on scenarios, while disregarding actual analysis of the content of people's posts (at least that's how it came across).
I'm glad you see where I'm coming from on the final day. Generally speaking, pushing your strongest read, hard, is the best way of getting someone lynched. I've been killed off in LVI now, but I replaced in to day one, 3 hours before lynch time - and I got someone who previously had 0 votes lynched. Anything is possible if you push your read(s).
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On July 03 2012 22:24 marvellosity wrote:
Meh @ easy to say. Objectively I would have lynched him. BH and I briefly talked about it at the time and he agreed with me too.
Maybe I'm being too aggressive because you're getting defensive, I'm just trying to explain how I see it. You spent a lot of time on scenarios, while disregarding actual analysis of the content of people's posts (at least that's how it came across).
I'm glad you see where I'm coming from on the final day. Generally speaking, pushing your strongest read, hard, is the best way of getting someone lynched. I've been killed off in LVI now, but I replaced in to day one, 3 hours before lynch time - and I got someone who previously had 0 votes lynched. Anything is possible if you push your read(s).
Interesting.
Lynching Vivax was certainly the safer option. I have playing risky so ingrained into my playstyle because that's how me and my friends have always played. That is to say, my friends and I that play together would almost always take the risk of killing a VT over the risk of killing a DT (its a much different case when the fake DT target happens to be a blue role, then things really get messy). It's a different style of play where we try to game the system, and only resort to reads as a worst case scenario.
Sorry if I came off as being defensive, I certainly didn't intend to. I find your post not aggressive whatsoever, so I honestly didn't intend to be defensive. Just arguing a point now, for the sake of it :p
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
Unfortunately trying to game the system in TL Mafia will only get you so far.
And by so far, I mean lynched 
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On July 03 2012 22:43 marvellosity wrote:Unfortunately trying to game the system in TL Mafia will only get you so far. And by so far, I mean lynched
That's the part that is so baffling to me.
I've broken so many games with clever strategizing 
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On July 03 2012 22:47 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2012 22:43 marvellosity wrote:Unfortunately trying to game the system in TL Mafia will only get you so far. And by so far, I mean lynched That's the part that is so baffling to me. I've broken so many games with clever strategizing
Well, clever strategizing broke this game too. Fakeclaim secured D2, and left Esspen as the one better target than me.
So your pattern is unscathed at least, it just broke it a way you didn't want.
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Although, to be fair, the fakeclaim did paint a target on me too, but all it takes is that shadow of a doubt.
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
On July 03 2012 22:47 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2012 22:43 marvellosity wrote:Unfortunately trying to game the system in TL Mafia will only get you so far. And by so far, I mean lynched That's the part that is so baffling to me. I've broken so many games with clever strategizing
Welcome to TL Mafia my friend.
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On July 03 2012 22:50 JingleHell wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2012 22:47 Keirathi wrote:On July 03 2012 22:43 marvellosity wrote:Unfortunately trying to game the system in TL Mafia will only get you so far. And by so far, I mean lynched That's the part that is so baffling to me. I've broken so many games with clever strategizing Well, clever strategizing broke this game too. Fakeclaim secured D2, and left Esspen as the one better target than me. So your pattern is unscathed at least, it just broke it a way you didn't want.
Touche, good sir.
Although, I think that was more of a case of unclever strategizing :p
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On July 03 2012 22:57 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2012 22:50 JingleHell wrote:On July 03 2012 22:47 Keirathi wrote:On July 03 2012 22:43 marvellosity wrote:Unfortunately trying to game the system in TL Mafia will only get you so far. And by so far, I mean lynched That's the part that is so baffling to me. I've broken so many games with clever strategizing Well, clever strategizing broke this game too. Fakeclaim secured D2, and left Esspen as the one better target than me. So your pattern is unscathed at least, it just broke it a way you didn't want. Touche, good sir. Although, I think that was more of a case of unclever strategizing :p
That all depends on your point of view, though, the same case could be made about your gambling fetish D3. No matter if it can work, this game is all about perception and persuasion. The fakeclaim was a similar sort of gamble, and, in fact, since he had me and Bio pegged as scum, it could have won the game, had he done it right, by building a case first, rather than hoping the claim would stand on it's own.
Granted, it almost did stand on it's own, but almost only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades.
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Hey, just wondering if the scum team feedback is coming.
You guys apparently had me pegged as Scum in the Obs QT and I'd like some ideas to improve my game (as it was my first scum game)
Thanks!
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kitaman27
United States9245 Posts
Postgame part two
The mafia team ended with a flawless victory so obviously all three of them played well. The communication in the quicktopic was excellent from night one and on. One minor area that you could have put a bit more effort into was blue-hunting. You managed to sucessfully snipe the vig on night one, but I think it was more of a hit on a strong player. With the rolecop, you are able to find the medic/dt in half the time, but he still ended up surviving until endgame. Another thing I happened to pick up on while going through each of your filters was signs of post lynch guilt. While nobody is likely to pick up on it, there were quite a lot of GG's towards players you pushed hard to get lynched 
BioSC
You did a good job pretending to express town frustration about activity and Esspen's self vote. On day one, you spent too much effort defending yourself. No one is going to listen to a couple of one liners against you, so don't feel compelled to respond to every accusation. It makes it look like you care more about survival than pushing town objectives. Your posts were pretty void of content. Your case against Hopeless is going to come off as omgus, even if it isn't what you intended. Try to beat him to the punch if possible. For a closely contested day one lynch, you never mention roffles once. If someone picks up on this, it could get you in trouble. I was quite pleased that you managed to swing Esspen's vote to a mislynch on day one. This was probably the most important point in the game. In the scum quicktopic, you seemed as if you were ready to throw in the towel thinking the godfather would be lynched. You always need to try to have a plan B, as things are always going to go wrong as some point of the game. Events swing back and forth so quickly in a game, so don't give up after the first struggle.
Day two and three you were quite sucessful at pushing mafia objectives. The only thing I would mention is that you again appear not to consider jingle being scum or even reference him at any point, which could hurt you if he was to ever flip. Careful not to reveal that you have additional knowledge when posting. People are going to follow through with scumslips like that in most games. One other thing you could work on is more interaction with your fellow scumbuddies in thread. Take a look at your filter and count how many town players you quote, compared to scum.
JingleHell
You had to enter the game from a defensive position, based on the play of roffles, which is certainly not an easy task. I liked that you came out contributing from the start. Well done shooting down the dt claim based on flaws in logic present in older posts. That's exactly how it should have been done. You spend a lot of time trying to convince town players of your innocence, don't be afraid to come up with a fake conversation with a scum buddy, attempting to convince them as well. Day three was pretty straightforward so there isn't much to add. Your interation with Keirathi makes it somewhat apparent that you probably aren't scumbuddies.
JieXian
While you're reasoning for not being availible at the deadline was certainly reasonable, you were a liability when your vote was needed. If you had been able to coordinate with your team more sucessfully, the day one lynch could have been a lock, but instead it came down to a last minute switch by a townie. By placing, a throwaway vote on Release, it showed you didn't care about placing a vote on a player who was actually going to flip.
Careful about providing weak reads. You call players "werid" and "confusing" rather than "town" or "scummy". It is a bit tough to follow your thought process on suddenly voting Vivax, after sharing suspicion of several other players. As scum, it's not as much of a concern, but a lot of your posts were either one-liners or conversational, rather than well-constructed. It would make you look better if you had a few more beefy posts, however. It's fine to share suspcion of your fellow scumbuddies, but calling them obvious scum is going to limit your options later on, unless you are going 100% with the bus.
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<3 kita. Got any suggestions for something I should try to improve?
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kitaman27
United States9245 Posts
On July 04 2012 09:18 JingleHell wrote:
<3 kita. Got any suggestions for something I should try to improve?
Probably the biggest thing would be to interact with your scum buddies more often in the thread. I think if you were to flip at any point, bio would have come out looking pretty bad and several town players would be tough to lynch.
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On July 04 2012 09:24 kitaman27 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2012 09:18 JingleHell wrote:
<3 kita. Got any suggestions for something I should try to improve? Probably the biggest thing would be to interact with your scum buddies more often in the thread. I think if you were to flip at any point, bio would have come out looking pretty bad and several town players would be tough to lynch.
I'll keep it in mind. I got paranoid when the spotlight landed on me, and probably overdid the separation.
Of course, no matter what you do, it's all about the wine.
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With regards to Day 1:
Yeah, I didn't really ever mean to make Hopeless the target, but With Rofl opting out of the game and Jiex asleep during a pretty pivotal time, I kinda went a little stir crazy =D I had to come up with something quick, because it was a policy lynch on the GF and I felt like I was left out to dry a bit.
Same question about personal improvement tips, I like the scum interaction tips, I'll try to incorporate that next time.
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thanks for the criticism kita. I do realise after some time that I'm FOSing everywhere with weak reads. I was thinking that an FOS could spark discussion and doubt before a strong case is built. Wrong approach to the game?
About the D1 lynch, 8 am is really bad for me and I wasn't expecting that at all, being my first game. Sorry Bio, d1 was great play by you.
About weird and confusing, am I just missing a few lines to imply that they are hence scummy or is it a wrong approach?
I used obvious to mean that it's obvious that he's in a bad position, not that he's obvious scum, meaning I don't need to provide any justification to my list of 4 people under suspicion. Let me know if you still think it's a bad move.
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Playing Mafia at this time zone really takes away a part of the game, sadly. (We need one with a different time zone!)
My final Vivax justification was indeed weird, again due to time zones:
I will give him the BOTD if he would address my questions before I went to sleep, but he didn't.
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And as for the 1 liners, which I think was mostly on D3 (correct my if I'm wrong) were when Esspen was the obvious lynch target, without me wanting or having any townie motive to change chat and I was left pointing out the problems in Keirathi's no-lynch proposition. I didn't know what else to post >_>
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Blazinghand
United States25557 Posts
Just use strong language rather than weak language. Townies are unafraid to call out scum.
Now that the game is over feel free to edit rather than triple posting.
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EPT
