Newbie Mini Mafia XVII

On June 28 2012 06:08 Miltonkram wrote:
I'd like to get people's opinion on Crossfire's play during the final night and day. Not the part where he suddenly switched votes, that was a pretty obvious mistake, the parts before. I liked how he took a hard stance against me and let me know that I was in his sights even though he didn't necessarily mean what he was saying. I think it's a good play for the following reasons:
- If suki had been scum, Crossfire's support of her could have caused her to become overconfident, possibly causing a slip.
- Since I was scum, Crossfire's pressure could have caused me to panic (it did) and slip up. I can't tell you how many posts I had to keep myself from posting out of panic that would have been slips.

I think if he had stated that he was for lynching a player, but in reality left himself open to both possibilities, he could have gotten a ton of information. I say this because I'd be interested in adapting some form of that into my own town play. Crossfire, is there anything you think you should have changed about your approach to the final lynch? Are there any vets who know a way of tweaking his approach in order for it to be more effective?

Ok, I'll just explain my whole plan near the end, so you can understand what i was doing. I was always more suspicious of suki than I let on, but it wasn't really even suspicion, it was just a hint of doubt. I honestly felt she played completely townie day 2 on, but her day 1 play was suspicious to me (and others). I originally had written it off as just being a too aggressive townie. See my night 1 post where I analyze the lynch. I had suki correctly pegged as town there. From day 2 on I just went with my original read that suki was town based on the lynch and her continuing aggressive and open play. People kept on being suspicious of her, so I thought that if she kept on surviving the lynches and nks I would have to revisit her. Basically, if she and I both survived to lylo I would need to take a real hard look at her because everyone was suspicious of her. I would say it was around night 3/day 4 where I decided I would defend suki hardcore to accomplish 2 things: 1) I thought she was town so I actually wanted to defend her and 2) if she was actually scum and I survived to lylo I would have the advantage of being able to trick her into thinking I would defend her til death, while in reality I would be suspicious of her.

Ok, so everything happened according to my plan. I continued to pressure you milton, while defending suki. I can't remember but I think it was right at the end of night 4 or beginning of day 5 when I was posting, but I found 1 post from her which pretty much convinced me she was scum. I'll have to find it for you suki and edit it in so you can see what changed my mind. I might have looked at it wrong in hindsight, but let me find it first...

Ok I found it. Here it is + Show Spoiler +

On June 16 2012 00:01 suki wrote:

Show nested quote +

sciberbia quoted this post and pointed out that he doesn't see any logical holes in rofl's play, and that he doesn't think rofl did either.

The part I find strange is not whether or not rofl saw 'logical holes', but how there's an implicit expectation that alan would 'poke through' those 'obvious logical holes'.

As a townie you make your cases with as few logical holes as possible so that you can put the most pressure on your target and force out information. You don't want, and certainly don't expect, those holes to be pointed out. As scum, though, you know that your arguments have holes in them, this kind of wording comes out a lot more naturally.

It's also telling that he straight up admits that his case was full of holes, which serves to ease the pressure off of him for making such a weak case (weak in his mind).

The list of potential mafia is also very strange. It also has the trait of looking like he's contributing without actually contributing anything at all.

Also take a look at this post:

Show nested quote +

I wrote down early on in my personal notes how the 'you defeated yourself' lines seemed like a very scum-like thing to do. Rather than simply defending himself, he uses Milton's words against him, to further discredit Milton. I find that full of scum motivation. After all, if you can use a player's words against them, it feels like your case is a lot stronger.

"I backed down because I hadn't received any support towards my case" is also not very townie. Town motivation is to convince people to agree with your case. If you don't get support but you still feel your points are valid, you continue to press. The fact that rofl is so concerned about having support is very fitting for scum.

All in all, I agree that rofl looks extremely scummy and the #1 candidate for vig shot or Day 2 lynch.

It seems we have reached a strong consensus on who scum #2 is. Before the night is over, I think we should start talking about other candidates for the day 2 lynch to gain a more broad discussion before the night is over. In particular, I would like to ask for opinions on my case against trackd00r.

What I found scummy was the part in your spoilered quote that i bolded when paired with these posts you made that solstice pointed out in this case+ Show Spoiler +

On June 16 2012 04:23 s0Lstice wrote:
Alright so there aren't many fish in this sea. The two bad ones are roflewaffles55 and suki.

Roflewaffles55

I won't rehash. If you are still not convinced go have a look at sciberbia's and alan's cases. This is a done deal in my mind.

Suki

She learned a lot from her first game as scum, and it showed this game. She looked pro-town enough for me to set her aside in favor of other endeavors. That said, there is plenty of incriminating evidence in her filter to be had. I'll organize this as best as I can.

Let's look at how she has been going after the town win condition:

Her case on trackd00r:
+ Show Spoiler +

She divebombs the thread with this accusation as her first post, and then in short order backs down from it when it doesn't gain any traction.

On June 14 2012 00:06 suki wrote:
As has been pointed out, the contradiction isn't as severe as I initially thought it was.

##unvote trackd00r

I thought at the very least I could rouse a response from trackd00r, however my case was too weak and I feel that no useful information can be gleamed from people simply agreeing on its flimsiness.

On June 14 2012 13:21 suki wrote:
Quite simply you (and several other people after you) answered your question. The motivation is to get the ball rolling some way, any way. I feel I failed a bit in that regard as my attack was so full of holes that there hardly was any discussion developed from it, but it was made with good intentions.

On June 14 2012 00:06 suki wrote:
My case on trackd00r was/is a flop, and up until your vote on alan no one has really pointed out anything suspicious about any other player

On June 14 2012 13:36 suki wrote:
@sciberbia

I think a lot of your argument stems from the impression that I was absolutely sure trackd00r was scum. I definitely worded my post that way on purpose, in spite of knowing my case wasn't solid.

I was genuinely surprised that my case was as weak as it was. Basically one good post from you was strong enough to let everyone basically say 'yeah, I agree.' My comment that 'at the very least I could rouse a response from trackd00r' was because I thought even if my case was really weak, I could aggravate an interesting reply from trackd00r, but it didn't.

Regarding the contradiction, and the comment that the contradiction isn't as severe as I thought it was. It's simply not taking the time to really think about the topic, after reading the rebuttals and being disappointed. There is no contradiction, it was just me being careless with my choice of words.

Actually, the offhanded and subtly confident way he deflected my attack is a townie point for him in my book, so as it stands I don't suspect trackd00r at all.

On June 14 2012 13:36 suki wrote:
As for opening the game, I posted my policy post after the accusation because I wrote the accusation first. I did want to start the thread off boldly, I'll give you that.

Look at how she dances around. She explains what was going through her head in 3 different ways:
-I knew the case was weak when I posted it
-I didn't know the case was weak until people told me after I posted it
-I thought my case may have been weak, but I was just trying to get the discussion going.

Also that last quote is scum-slip. Sciberbia pointed it out earlier. A townie has one agenda: finding scum. Scum have several agenda: stay alive, sow confusion, cause chaos. Admitting to adhering to an agenda of aggressiveness for it's own sake is very scummy. Suki has addressed this point, calling it WIFOM. Minus her comment on the matter, it would be WIFOM. It is her stated reason for wanting to appear aggressive that makes it a scum-slip instead.

She has returned to trackd00r recently, and I'll address that later.

-snipped-

. Basically, when I looked at those posts together, it seemed that you were basically saying that you were scum in the bolded part in the first spoiler post because you did just that in the other posts that solstice pointed out. I mean this was the straw that broke the camel's back in my eyes. Hope that clarifies things for you. Let me know if you want me to further explain it.

I guess the thing I did wrong was I didn't do enough research on you milton and didn't find the scummy things you did to actually be scummy. For example, when I was reading suki's case on you, I disagreed with some points. The first one was the post you made about being nervous for the heavon lynch. I actually thought it worked in your favor because by that time rofl was already voting for heavon, so I thought that clearly the mafia know that heavon is dying day 1 and have decided to jump on the bandwagon, so there is no reason for a scum milton to be nervous because he has already decided that heavon must die. Looking back on it, I realize I didn't compare it to your posts near the other lynches and I didn't take into account that sometimes people can just make a subconscious slip of the tongue. Additionally, I kept on misreading rofl and yours exchange at the beginning. I feel retarded now looking back, but for some reason I kept on messing up the actual context of this exchange. I clearly remembered that rofl continued being suspicious of alan, but he didn't really state that until after this exchange and not before, so that had me reading that point wrong. I guess I also put too much faith in my generic overview reads of your filter because nothing scummy just jumped out at me when I was doing so. Ugh I feel so dumb right now...

Also, just so you actually know. I was already planning on voting for suki when I had voted for you, milton. I did this so I could see how each of you responded while also allowing for an exciting end to the day (lol). I even pmed both hosts to let them know that I planned on changing my vote so they could write the endgame post. I see they incorporated my double cross quite well and made for an exciting story and I give them mad props for that.

Lastly, when I came back to thread, I even read your goodbye post as confirming your innocence, while marv apparently saw it as scummy. Ugh, I need to practice a ton more. That won't be happening for a while though because I'm not going to have time to play mafia in the coming months, but it has been a blast playing with you all. I hope to see you guys again in some other games if I ever come back.

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