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This looks like a great game.
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I'll /in in the thread so everybody knows I'm playing.
Please don't shoot me.
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That's twenty players, right?
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I think we should bet on who the first person to shoot and who the first person to die will be.
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I have an idea.
I shoot the smurf first day unless he reveals his identity. 
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With that in mind let me categorically state I will shoot anyone claiming miller after our starting phase
Is anybody else bothered by this?
There's no reason you should "veto" a decision because you can shoot.
Regardless of the topic, it stunts discussion, which is really scummy.
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Yeah, having the two people whom we think are most suspicious shoot each other seems much better than allowing a bad townie choose who lives and who dies.
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He was trying to copy my reason for being suspicious of Rastaban, but he confused Rastaban with chaoser.
FAIL
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There's nothing wrong with copying as long as you do it accurately and add on your own ideas.
I have an irrational fear of being misquoted. >.<
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I never thought of that, Gonzaw. o.0
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Mr. Smurf, you merely say:
"I'm going to shoot you unless you start scumhunting."
Or something like that.
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You can do it, Kenpachi, you'll just be killed the next day and hated forever.
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The post says that the days ends when the first person is killed.
Couldn't we just keep talking but not kill anybody for a few days?
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RoL is most likely miller, as I doubt the mafia would make up something like that; the only suspicious thing is that now he appears exactly like a normal mafia goon (appears red and can't shoot), we might want to kill him in the future if we don't kill anybody who has the gun stealing role.
Originally, I was leaning toward Gonzaw being scum, but his posts have gotten more townie. However, he's still the most suspicious person, so I agree that we should have him shoot.
If we can't find an optimal person to shoot, I would encourage him to shoot into risk.nuke, Kenpachi, and payl.
Obviously we wouldn't allow him to choose who he shoots.
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If you really want to shoot me or something at least wait 24 hours into D1 so you don't waste the whole day and so we can put some sense into you.
His insistence on waiting until most of the day passes before shooting.
I personally don't find people's opinion on certain plans (or policy lynches, etc) alignment telling at all. So no matter how much someone talks and talks about plans, I can't analyze their alignment based on their behaviour, if everybody else is discussing plans as well.
This seems like the genuine thing a mafia wouldn't say.
+ Show Spoiler +What if all of us claim if we have a gun to shoot or not?
Like said before, most blue roles are not that strong (the good ones don't know their sanity); but the VT/Miller roles are the strongest since they control the "lynch", and are our only way to win this game (other than a random vigilante out there).
I think they did it like this:
1)Everybody claims if they have a gun or not
2)The people that claimed they have a gun, take turns each day to shoot the most scummy one from the pool of the guys that don't have a gun
Here we can use that "random thingy" site Palmar made for iGrok's game (if someone's good enough to copy the script and shit, maybe make it public):
Each day we make a list of all the people that claimed they have a gun, and randomize it. That way we randomly choose who to shoot from that list.
That way mafia can't try to fake-claim that they have a gun and manipulate their way to never shoot at all, because the process of choosing who to shoot is random so if it's their turn to shoot they can't get away with it (this will disencourage scum fake-claiming they have a gun).
This is the beauty from the plan:
Yes, all the VTs/Millers will be outed for SK/scum, and so will the blues....
...however the blues will be mostly intact and survive the whole game.
Why? Because in the pool of blues most of the scum (goon and RBers, etc) lurk. If they shoot blues at night, that pool is reduced so they have more chances of being shot at day.
Not only that, but because of what I said earlier they'll most likely shoot VTs (check that post I made).
So blues are free to make their actions at night (not all of them can be RBed, plus they shouldn't claim their roles either) to help us with what we can, while we systematically kill those scum in their group.
Once we kill all scum in the "blue" group (3 of them right?), we are set, leave the rest of those blues alone and take a look at the VT/Miller claims to get the GF and the SK.
Since only non-gunners will get shot at day, and only gunners will get shot at night by scum, the blues in the non-gunners group can use:
1)Their medic saves on the gunners
2)Their watcher/tracker/cop checks on the gunners
1)Because those are the only ones getting shot at night, so they have a greater chance to save them
2)Because once all the scum from the non-gunners are killed, we need to find the SK/GF. If blues check those players, then it's more likely they can find the SK/GF for us so we have it easier later.
That was the way it would work in the 1st game.
Now that I think about it the "SK or scum can steal guns at night" thing if RoL says the truth can change it a little bit
What do you guys think? Any way to improve it if it's worth it? Or is it unworthy?
This is an excellent plan, which I believe would give town a great chance of winning; I doubt a mafia would suggest it.
Also, something I found along the way.
Pretty sure
1) We'll run out of things to say or just go in circles
2) Ace will probably put a limit on like 48 hours and then we just "no shot" and move straight to night
3) Someone will probably get trigger happy and shoot anyway.
I want gonzaw to shoot. We already had 24 hours of discussion since night 0 happened, we've got our suspicions. Let's go gonzaw, chop chop.
Chaoser wanted Gonzaw to shoot at dawn, effectively killing 24 hours of discussion.
That's exactly what scum would want to happen.
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On June 12 2012 23:37 Dirkzor wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 23:17 MrZentor wrote:
RoL is most likely miller, as I doubt the mafia would make up something like that; the only suspicious thing is that now he appears exactly like a normal mafia goon (appears red and can't shoot), we might want to kill him in the future if we don't kill anybody who has the gun stealing role.
Originally, I was leaning toward Gonzaw being scum, but his posts have gotten more townie. However, he's still the most suspicious person, so I agree that we should have him shoot.
If we can't find an optimal person to shoot, I would encourage him to shoot into risk.nuke, Kenpachi, and payl.
Obviously we wouldn't allow him to choose who he shoots.
I'm confused... You want to shoot Gonsaw as he is the most suspecion to you right now. But you also want to shoot one of the lurker if we fail to find an optimal person to shoot. Isn't gonsaw an optimal person if you find him scummy? Or are you just covering your ass in case we do end up shooting gonsaw and he flips scum so you can say "Yeah I was totally supporting that lynch!"
You misread what I said. I wanted to have Gonzaw shoot somebody else.
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Gonzaw should shoot chaoser.
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Chaoser said that he didn't want to wait 24 hours and that he wanted Gonzaw to shoot a few minutes after the day post.
Check your facts.
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Do you agree that Chaoser is scummy?
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Because 3/4 times mafia can't shoot, confirming they're either mafia or a blue role.
*Assuming we're correct about the 1 godfather thing
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I don't see how anybody could have thought Gonzaw was scum after that claim.
The balls of steel was the sort of detail which sum doesn't have the time or energy to fabricate.
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I thought you guys would have waited at least an hour before the end of the day before shooting, so I thought I would be on at the end. -.-
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If what Toad says is true, then it isn't really THAT anti town to shoot a few minutes into the day, because then we'll basically have a 48 hour night.
Right?
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Why do you want to kill me?
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Rastaban is scum, so why would you give him the chance of shooting me?
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Woah, what happened to RoL? -.-
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RoL talked about all the downsides of claiming millers, then claimed to be a miller.
+ Show Spoiler +On June 12 2012 09:50 marvellosity wrote:gonzaw, you've just made me read all the setup speculation on Millers. Damn thee. There is so much I do not like about the claim. Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 04:20 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
Alright, finished reading.
Any plan that involves millers and role checking is quite stupid. There are so many things that can interfere with proper results that it hinges on nothing. Anyone advocating some sort of role centric plan needs to shut up. It won't work, we don't even know if all the roles in the OP are the only roles in the game, but even from what we can tell it is still a crap shoot and it could only get worse.
I agree with what Chaoser said. If we think someone is scummy, we make them shoot who they think are scummy. If they can't shoot and can't explain themselves then we just kill them. Problem solved. On the off chance the DT figures out his sanity and claims to have found someone a Miller claim CANNOT absolve them. A DT will only get a red check back on non GF roles if his sanity is known. The non GF roles cannot shoot, so they would need to shoot to prove they are a Miller.
That claim can literally never work.
There is only one actual benefit of a Miller claiming in this set up. Hypothetically its day 5, we need to kill a mafia and the DT claims knowing his sanity and has a red check on someone. Assuming that person has NEVER shot during the day then he can now shoot to prove that he is not scum but a Miller. There is no way scum can emulate that play to the point where it would help a Miller to claim earlier on. The only thing that this helps is preventing a cop who knows there alignment to claiming publicly in that one very niche scenario.
In that scenario the N1 Miller claim would save the cop from going public. That is the only benefit. So does that single benefit justify having someone claim Miller? I can't see why someone would ever get shit for claiming Miller. The only mafia benefit to claiming Miller would be to avoid a RC but the only one who can do that is the GF who would get outed by a DT check and would prefer to get DT checked anyway.
The same thing applies to SK's.
Anyone faking Miller would eventually just get outed by some means and its not worth it. So I guess there is only that one benefit, but there is no real drawback besides people wasting time speculating on why someone claimed Miller.
But hey, since I outlined all the reasons above and there are no true drawbacks, might as well claim that I'm a Miller. Green text: Outlines in some depth how little benefit there is to Miller claiming in this setup. He calls the benefit a 'very niche' scenario. Red text: Having outlined why it's barely beneficial if at all to claim Miller, he leaps into categorically saying no-one should give miller claims any shit. Claims at the end he 'outlined all the reasons'. All the reasons? He clarified himself it would only help in a 'very niche scenario'. What gives? He then says mafia have no reason to fakeclaim miller. He's actively pushing this to discredit the notion. Blue text: Also see post below, but this looks like an attempt to halt any discussion of his miller claim. Because we're so busy on Night 0, right? Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 06:05 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On June 12 2012 04:55 FreelanceSatan wrote:On June 12 2012 04:37 chaoser wrote:
Isn't it Night 0? As in mafia get to do night kills if they want to? why did RoL claim miller already... yeah i didnt even think about that..looks like he jumped the gun a bit there.. what are the chances the mafia would want to shoot him instead of shooting for blues tho? It's not really a big deal. Half the reason I considered not claiming at all was just because I didn't think it was worth considering whether or not I was a Miller. I am sure if I continue being alive they will try to make me suspciious because of that. Or killing me, whatever. There is a chance that a medic could be on me because I claimed and they would be wasting their first hit. There is a number of things they have to take into account. Ultimately, I'm not really worried and whether I die or not its not that big of a deal. Again with the blue text, pushing the idea that talking about his claim is a bad thing. To the bold and underlined: twice he says his claim is not a big deal. More language in the middle with 'or killing me, whatever'. Basically totally flippant and acting unconcerned about it. Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 06:06 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On June 12 2012 04:58 Toadesstern wrote:On June 12 2012 04:55 FreelanceSatan wrote:On June 12 2012 04:37 chaoser wrote:
Isn't it Night 0? As in mafia get to do night kills if they want to? why did RoL claim miller already... yeah i didnt even think about that..looks like he jumped the gun a bit there.. what are the chances the mafia would want to shoot him instead of shooting for blues tho? about 0. I actually thought there's no way that's really a claim because that would be stupid. Maybe it's a trick to survive d0? :p Let's start the wifom machine lol. And here comes that suspicion thing I was talking about. It's the only downside I perceived of claiming regardless of timing. Idiots will always over-analyze shit for no reason. However that wasn't something I could articulate without just saying people are dumb and we can't work around them being suspicious of a miller claim regardless of how illogical it is for any non-town person to do it. Look at the change in tone! From his original claim with his "hey, I guess I'll claim miller" casual attitude and subsequent post with the 'whatevers' and 'it's not a big deal' he fucking jumps down Toad's throat. Now he's again pushing the idea that even talking about his claim is a bad thing. He admits here that he forsaw people being suspicious of the claim. Yet in his original post, the only 'benefit' he saw was with a very niche day 5 cop scenario. RoL said elsewhere in his filter that we should be working off behavioural analysis. I agree. I'm not questioning the claim because he claimed Miller, I'm questioning how he's gone about it. Scum.
He claimed to have his gun taken away, which is really suspicious as it sets him up to look exactly like a mafia goon (appears red and can't shoot), and it seems improbable that either mafia or sk would have this power.
On June 12 2012 13:54 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
Well I was shot last night but survived. I also had my gun taken away which is quite interesting.
These things coupled with the fact that he hasn't been around for the entire night makes me doubt his claim.
Would anybody else care to comment?
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Rastaban, did you even read it?
He clearly stated that people would be suspicious of him; people being suspicious of an innocent person is a pretty terrible drawback to claiming miller.
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I haven't been lurking for days. -.-
If you want to find somebody who has been lurking for days, look at Kenpachi.
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On June 14 2012 12:15 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2012 12:14 MrZentor wrote:
I haven't been lurking for days. -.-
If you want to find somebody who has been lurking for days, look at Kenpachi. Do you have anything original to add?
You're annoying.
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It means he can't shoot for one day.
And MZ, how is pointing out how lurky RoL has been and how that's terribly suspicious behavior for a person who claimed miller not original?
Speaking of original content, I'd like some from you.
Look at your last posts from the night.
+ Show Spoiler +On June 13 2012 12:10 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:
Check it out, Kita AND zentor show up to tell us how dumb we are.
Would have been just snazzy if you gentleman had actually been around during the day. On June 14 2012 04:37 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:
Тебе надо говорит по-английский On June 14 2012 05:56 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2012 04:39 VisceraEyes wrote:On June 14 2012 04:37 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:
Тебе надо говорит по-английский lol MZ any thoughts you wanna share? atm I'm at school getting ready for my last final so no lol. I still wanna kill zentor and the rastaban case looks decent from what I can tell. On June 14 2012 12:11 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2012 11:17 MrZentor wrote:RoL talked about all the downsides of claiming millers, then claimed to be a miller. + Show Spoiler +On June 12 2012 09:50 marvellosity wrote:gonzaw, you've just made me read all the setup speculation on Millers. Damn thee. There is so much I do not like about the claim. Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 04:20 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
Alright, finished reading.
Any plan that involves millers and role checking is quite stupid. There are so many things that can interfere with proper results that it hinges on nothing. Anyone advocating some sort of role centric plan needs to shut up. It won't work, we don't even know if all the roles in the OP are the only roles in the game, but even from what we can tell it is still a crap shoot and it could only get worse.
I agree with what Chaoser said. If we think someone is scummy, we make them shoot who they think are scummy. If they can't shoot and can't explain themselves then we just kill them. Problem solved. On the off chance the DT figures out his sanity and claims to have found someone a Miller claim CANNOT absolve them. A DT will only get a red check back on non GF roles if his sanity is known. The non GF roles cannot shoot, so they would need to shoot to prove they are a Miller.
That claim can literally never work.
There is only one actual benefit of a Miller claiming in this set up. Hypothetically its day 5, we need to kill a mafia and the DT claims knowing his sanity and has a red check on someone. Assuming that person has NEVER shot during the day then he can now shoot to prove that he is not scum but a Miller. There is no way scum can emulate that play to the point where it would help a Miller to claim earlier on. The only thing that this helps is preventing a cop who knows there alignment to claiming publicly in that one very niche scenario.
In that scenario the N1 Miller claim would save the cop from going public. That is the only benefit. So does that single benefit justify having someone claim Miller? I can't see why someone would ever get shit for claiming Miller. The only mafia benefit to claiming Miller would be to avoid a RC but the only one who can do that is the GF who would get outed by a DT check and would prefer to get DT checked anyway.
The same thing applies to SK's.
Anyone faking Miller would eventually just get outed by some means and its not worth it. So I guess there is only that one benefit, but there is no real drawback besides people wasting time speculating on why someone claimed Miller.
But hey, since I outlined all the reasons above and there are no true drawbacks, might as well claim that I'm a Miller. Green text: Outlines in some depth how little benefit there is to Miller claiming in this setup. He calls the benefit a 'very niche' scenario. Red text: Having outlined why it's barely beneficial if at all to claim Miller, he leaps into categorically saying no-one should give miller claims any shit. Claims at the end he 'outlined all the reasons'. All the reasons? He clarified himself it would only help in a 'very niche scenario'. What gives? He then says mafia have no reason to fakeclaim miller. He's actively pushing this to discredit the notion. Blue text: Also see post below, but this looks like an attempt to halt any discussion of his miller claim. Because we're so busy on Night 0, right? Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 06:05 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On June 12 2012 04:55 FreelanceSatan wrote:On June 12 2012 04:37 chaoser wrote:
Isn't it Night 0? As in mafia get to do night kills if they want to? why did RoL claim miller already... yeah i didnt even think about that..looks like he jumped the gun a bit there.. what are the chances the mafia would want to shoot him instead of shooting for blues tho? It's not really a big deal. Half the reason I considered not claiming at all was just because I didn't think it was worth considering whether or not I was a Miller. I am sure if I continue being alive they will try to make me suspciious because of that. Or killing me, whatever. There is a chance that a medic could be on me because I claimed and they would be wasting their first hit. There is a number of things they have to take into account. Ultimately, I'm not really worried and whether I die or not its not that big of a deal. Again with the blue text, pushing the idea that talking about his claim is a bad thing. To the bold and underlined: twice he says his claim is not a big deal. More language in the middle with 'or killing me, whatever'. Basically totally flippant and acting unconcerned about it. Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 06:06 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On June 12 2012 04:58 Toadesstern wrote:On June 12 2012 04:55 FreelanceSatan wrote:On June 12 2012 04:37 chaoser wrote:
Isn't it Night 0? As in mafia get to do night kills if they want to? why did RoL claim miller already... yeah i didnt even think about that..looks like he jumped the gun a bit there.. what are the chances the mafia would want to shoot him instead of shooting for blues tho? about 0. I actually thought there's no way that's really a claim because that would be stupid. Maybe it's a trick to survive d0? :p Let's start the wifom machine lol. And here comes that suspicion thing I was talking about. It's the only downside I perceived of claiming regardless of timing. Idiots will always over-analyze shit for no reason. However that wasn't something I could articulate without just saying people are dumb and we can't work around them being suspicious of a miller claim regardless of how illogical it is for any non-town person to do it. Look at the change in tone! From his original claim with his "hey, I guess I'll claim miller" casual attitude and subsequent post with the 'whatevers' and 'it's not a big deal' he fucking jumps down Toad's throat. Now he's again pushing the idea that even talking about his claim is a bad thing. He admits here that he forsaw people being suspicious of the claim. Yet in his original post, the only 'benefit' he saw was with a very niche day 5 cop scenario. RoL said elsewhere in his filter that we should be working off behavioural analysis. I agree. I'm not questioning the claim because he claimed Miller, I'm questioning how he's gone about it. Scum. He claimed to have his gun taken away, which is really suspicious as it sets him up to look exactly like a mafia goon (appears red and can't shoot), and it seems improbable that either mafia or sk would have this power. On June 12 2012 13:54 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
Well I was shot last night but survived. I also had my gun taken away which is quite interesting. These things coupled with the fact that he hasn't been around for the entire night makes me doubt his claim.
Would anybody else care to comment? So zentor you've been lurking for days and when you come back this is what you decide to comment on? ALSO NO MORE FINALS!!! On June 14 2012 12:13 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:
To clarify that last post, nicely done commenting on something that has been discussed to death. What about rastaban? On June 14 2012 12:15 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2012 12:14 MrZentor wrote:
I haven't been lurking for days. -.-
If you want to find somebody who has been lurking for days, look at Kenpachi. Do you have anything original to add? On June 14 2012 12:23 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:
I'm off to play some celebratory LoL, I'll check the thread when I'm done.
I'm really liking the idea of having rastaban shoot zentor, thoughts?
What can a reader get from these posts?
That you want me dead, you like the Rastaban case, and you think I lurked a bunch.
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That was why chaoser was so confident that gonzaw didn't have a gun. -.-
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+ Show Spoiler +On June 14 2012 14:33 payl wrote:#1 suspect: MrZentor Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 23:17 MrZentor wrote:
RoL is most likely miller, as I doubt the mafia would make up something like that; the only suspicious thing is that now he appears exactly like a normal mafia goon (appears red and can't shoot), we might want to kill him in the future if we don't kill anybody who has the gun stealing role.
Originally, I was leaning toward Gonzaw being scum, but his posts have gotten more townie. However, he's still the most suspicious person, so I agree that we should have him shoot.
If we can't find an optimal person to shoot, I would encourage him to shoot into risk.nuke, Kenpachi, and payl.
Obviously we wouldn't allow him to choose who he shoots.
Show nested quote +On June 14 2012 11:17 MrZentor wrote:RoL talked about all the downsides of claiming millers, then claimed to be a miller. + Show Spoiler +On June 12 2012 09:50 marvellosity wrote:gonzaw, you've just made me read all the setup speculation on Millers. Damn thee. There is so much I do not like about the claim. Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 04:20 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
Alright, finished reading.
Any plan that involves millers and role checking is quite stupid. There are so many things that can interfere with proper results that it hinges on nothing. Anyone advocating some sort of role centric plan needs to shut up. It won't work, we don't even know if all the roles in the OP are the only roles in the game, but even from what we can tell it is still a crap shoot and it could only get worse.
I agree with what Chaoser said. If we think someone is scummy, we make them shoot who they think are scummy. If they can't shoot and can't explain themselves then we just kill them. Problem solved. On the off chance the DT figures out his sanity and claims to have found someone a Miller claim CANNOT absolve them. A DT will only get a red check back on non GF roles if his sanity is known. The non GF roles cannot shoot, so they would need to shoot to prove they are a Miller.
That claim can literally never work.
There is only one actual benefit of a Miller claiming in this set up. Hypothetically its day 5, we need to kill a mafia and the DT claims knowing his sanity and has a red check on someone. Assuming that person has NEVER shot during the day then he can now shoot to prove that he is not scum but a Miller. There is no way scum can emulate that play to the point where it would help a Miller to claim earlier on. The only thing that this helps is preventing a cop who knows there alignment to claiming publicly in that one very niche scenario.
In that scenario the N1 Miller claim would save the cop from going public. That is the only benefit. So does that single benefit justify having someone claim Miller? I can't see why someone would ever get shit for claiming Miller. The only mafia benefit to claiming Miller would be to avoid a RC but the only one who can do that is the GF who would get outed by a DT check and would prefer to get DT checked anyway.
The same thing applies to SK's.
Anyone faking Miller would eventually just get outed by some means and its not worth it. So I guess there is only that one benefit, but there is no real drawback besides people wasting time speculating on why someone claimed Miller.
But hey, since I outlined all the reasons above and there are no true drawbacks, might as well claim that I'm a Miller. Green text: Outlines in some depth how little benefit there is to Miller claiming in this setup. He calls the benefit a 'very niche' scenario. Red text: Having outlined why it's barely beneficial if at all to claim Miller, he leaps into categorically saying no-one should give miller claims any shit. Claims at the end he 'outlined all the reasons'. All the reasons? He clarified himself it would only help in a 'very niche scenario'. What gives? He then says mafia have no reason to fakeclaim miller. He's actively pushing this to discredit the notion. Blue text: Also see post below, but this looks like an attempt to halt any discussion of his miller claim. Because we're so busy on Night 0, right? Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 06:05 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On June 12 2012 04:55 FreelanceSatan wrote:On June 12 2012 04:37 chaoser wrote:
Isn't it Night 0? As in mafia get to do night kills if they want to? why did RoL claim miller already... yeah i didnt even think about that..looks like he jumped the gun a bit there.. what are the chances the mafia would want to shoot him instead of shooting for blues tho? It's not really a big deal. Half the reason I considered not claiming at all was just because I didn't think it was worth considering whether or not I was a Miller. I am sure if I continue being alive they will try to make me suspciious because of that. Or killing me, whatever. There is a chance that a medic could be on me because I claimed and they would be wasting their first hit. There is a number of things they have to take into account. Ultimately, I'm not really worried and whether I die or not its not that big of a deal. Again with the blue text, pushing the idea that talking about his claim is a bad thing. To the bold and underlined: twice he says his claim is not a big deal. More language in the middle with 'or killing me, whatever'. Basically totally flippant and acting unconcerned about it. Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 06:06 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On June 12 2012 04:58 Toadesstern wrote:On June 12 2012 04:55 FreelanceSatan wrote:On June 12 2012 04:37 chaoser wrote:
Isn't it Night 0? As in mafia get to do night kills if they want to? why did RoL claim miller already... yeah i didnt even think about that..looks like he jumped the gun a bit there.. what are the chances the mafia would want to shoot him instead of shooting for blues tho? about 0. I actually thought there's no way that's really a claim because that would be stupid. Maybe it's a trick to survive d0? :p Let's start the wifom machine lol. And here comes that suspicion thing I was talking about. It's the only downside I perceived of claiming regardless of timing. Idiots will always over-analyze shit for no reason. However that wasn't something I could articulate without just saying people are dumb and we can't work around them being suspicious of a miller claim regardless of how illogical it is for any non-town person to do it. Look at the change in tone! From his original claim with his "hey, I guess I'll claim miller" casual attitude and subsequent post with the 'whatevers' and 'it's not a big deal' he fucking jumps down Toad's throat. Now he's again pushing the idea that even talking about his claim is a bad thing. He admits here that he forsaw people being suspicious of the claim. Yet in his original post, the only 'benefit' he saw was with a very niche day 5 cop scenario. RoL said elsewhere in his filter that we should be working off behavioural analysis. I agree. I'm not questioning the claim because he claimed Miller, I'm questioning how he's gone about it. Scum. He claimed to have his gun taken away, which is really suspicious as it sets him up to look exactly like a mafia goon (appears red and can't shoot), and it seems improbable that either mafia or sk would have this power. On June 12 2012 13:54 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
Well I was shot last night but survived. I also had my gun taken away which is quite interesting. These things coupled with the fact that he hasn't been around for the entire night makes me doubt his claim.
Would anybody else care to comment? Entire change of stance based on pithy reasoning which doesn't support the change in opinion. And even better, the later post which ends with "would anybody else care to comment?" showing that he's afraid to commit to the accusation and is instead throwing it out there and seeing if it gains traction. Scum. Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 23:40 MrZentor wrote:If you really want to shoot me or something at least wait 24 hours into D1 so you don't waste the whole day and so we can put some sense into you. His insistence on waiting until most of the day passes before shooting. I personally don't find people's opinion on certain plans (or policy lynches, etc) alignment telling at all. So no matter how much someone talks and talks about plans, I can't analyze their alignment based on their behaviour, if everybody else is discussing plans as well. This seems like the genuine thing a mafia wouldn't say. + Show Spoiler +What if all of us claim if we have a gun to shoot or not?
Like said before, most blue roles are not that strong (the good ones don't know their sanity); but the VT/Miller roles are the strongest since they control the "lynch", and are our only way to win this game (other than a random vigilante out there).
I think they did it like this:
1)Everybody claims if they have a gun or not
2)The people that claimed they have a gun, take turns each day to shoot the most scummy one from the pool of the guys that don't have a gun
Here we can use that "random thingy" site Palmar made for iGrok's game (if someone's good enough to copy the script and shit, maybe make it public):
Each day we make a list of all the people that claimed they have a gun, and randomize it. That way we randomly choose who to shoot from that list.
That way mafia can't try to fake-claim that they have a gun and manipulate their way to never shoot at all, because the process of choosing who to shoot is random so if it's their turn to shoot they can't get away with it (this will disencourage scum fake-claiming they have a gun).
This is the beauty from the plan:
Yes, all the VTs/Millers will be outed for SK/scum, and so will the blues....
...however the blues will be mostly intact and survive the whole game.
Why? Because in the pool of blues most of the scum (goon and RBers, etc) lurk. If they shoot blues at night, that pool is reduced so they have more chances of being shot at day.
Not only that, but because of what I said earlier they'll most likely shoot VTs (check that post I made).
So blues are free to make their actions at night (not all of them can be RBed, plus they shouldn't claim their roles either) to help us with what we can, while we systematically kill those scum in their group.
Once we kill all scum in the "blue" group (3 of them right?), we are set, leave the rest of those blues alone and take a look at the VT/Miller claims to get the GF and the SK.
Since only non-gunners will get shot at day, and only gunners will get shot at night by scum, the blues in the non-gunners group can use:
1)Their medic saves on the gunners
2)Their watcher/tracker/cop checks on the gunners
1)Because those are the only ones getting shot at night, so they have a greater chance to save them
2)Because once all the scum from the non-gunners are killed, we need to find the SK/GF. If blues check those players, then it's more likely they can find the SK/GF for us so we have it easier later.
That was the way it would work in the 1st game.
Now that I think about it the "SK or scum can steal guns at night" thing if RoL says the truth can change it a little bit
What do you guys think? Any way to improve it if it's worth it? Or is it unworthy? This is an excellent plan, which I believe would give town a great chance of winning; I doubt a mafia would suggest it.
Also, something I found along the way. Pretty sure
1) We'll run out of things to say or just go in circles
2) Ace will probably put a limit on like 48 hours and then we just "no shot" and move straight to night
3) Someone will probably get trigger happy and shoot anyway.
I want gonzaw to shoot. We already had 24 hours of discussion since night 0 happened, we've got our suspicions. Let's go gonzaw, chop chop. Chaoser wanted Gonzaw to shoot at dawn, effectively killing 24 hours of discussion. That's exactly what scum would want to happen. This post is 100% bullshit. "This seems like the genuine thing a mafia wouldn't say." What the fuck does that mean? And "This is an excellent plan, which I believe would give town a great chance of winning; I doubt a mafia would suggest it."? The plan was terrible...outing which townies could shoot and which could not? In any other context I would have taken MrZentor's comment to be sarcasm. And then another single sentence trying to paint chaoser with a bit of guilt for something that is frankly, trivial. I also have my eye on Toads, but I'll write more tomorrow.
Entire change of stance based on pithy reasoning which doesn't support the change in opinion. And even better, the later post which ends with "would anybody else care to comment?" showing that he's afraid to commit to the accusation and is instead throwing it out there and seeing if it gains traction. Scum.
The person who claimed miller should be active and promoting a pro town environment, not lurking for 24 hours. The miller has a harder job than the rest of us; because it's possible that a mafia could claim miller, all claimed millers must be so pro town that there is no doubt of his alignment. RoL lurking is exactly what a mafia would do after successfully claiming miller. You're attacking me for asking for other people's opinions on RoL? Other people's opinions allow you to gauge how likely it is that your read is likely.
+ Show Spoiler +This post is 100% bullshit. "This seems like the genuine thing a mafia wouldn't say." What the fuck does that mean?
And "This is an excellent plan, which I believe would give town a great chance of winning; I doubt a mafia would suggest it."? The plan was terrible...outing which townies could shoot and which could not? In any other context I would have taken MrZentor's comment to be sarcasm. And then another single sentence trying to paint chaoser with a bit of guilt for something that is frankly, trivial.
It means that town people are a lot more open and share a lot more things that an average mafia wouldn't; that was one of those things. Yes, you allow mafia to see who has a gun and who doesn't, but at the same time, it gives you a huge chance of revealing scum. That's funny, because Choaser didn't think it was trivial.
In summary, payl is desperate to look like he's contributing information to town, but his case is really quite terrible.
+ Show Spoiler +On June 14 2012 17:05 Dirkzor wrote:Morning! First of, lets kill scum. I present: MrZentor! I was on to him early on: read hereBut after that it have just gotten worse. Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 23:40 MrZentor wrote:If you really want to shoot me or something at least wait 24 hours into D1 so you don't waste the whole day and so we can put some sense into you. His insistence on waiting until most of the day passes before shooting. I personally don't find people's opinion on certain plans (or policy lynches, etc) alignment telling at all. So no matter how much someone talks and talks about plans, I can't analyze their alignment based on their behaviour, if everybody else is discussing plans as well. This seems like the genuine thing a mafia wouldn't say. + Show Spoiler +What if all of us claim if we have a gun to shoot or not?
Like said before, most blue roles are not that strong (the good ones don't know their sanity); but the VT/Miller roles are the strongest since they control the "lynch", and are our only way to win this game (other than a random vigilante out there).
I think they did it like this:
1)Everybody claims if they have a gun or not
2)The people that claimed they have a gun, take turns each day to shoot the most scummy one from the pool of the guys that don't have a gun
Here we can use that "random thingy" site Palmar made for iGrok's game (if someone's good enough to copy the script and shit, maybe make it public):
Each day we make a list of all the people that claimed they have a gun, and randomize it. That way we randomly choose who to shoot from that list.
That way mafia can't try to fake-claim that they have a gun and manipulate their way to never shoot at all, because the process of choosing who to shoot is random so if it's their turn to shoot they can't get away with it (this will disencourage scum fake-claiming they have a gun).
This is the beauty from the plan:
Yes, all the VTs/Millers will be outed for SK/scum, and so will the blues....
...however the blues will be mostly intact and survive the whole game.
Why? Because in the pool of blues most of the scum (goon and RBers, etc) lurk. If they shoot blues at night, that pool is reduced so they have more chances of being shot at day.
Not only that, but because of what I said earlier they'll most likely shoot VTs (check that post I made).
So blues are free to make their actions at night (not all of them can be RBed, plus they shouldn't claim their roles either) to help us with what we can, while we systematically kill those scum in their group.
Once we kill all scum in the "blue" group (3 of them right?), we are set, leave the rest of those blues alone and take a look at the VT/Miller claims to get the GF and the SK.
Since only non-gunners will get shot at day, and only gunners will get shot at night by scum, the blues in the non-gunners group can use:
1)Their medic saves on the gunners
2)Their watcher/tracker/cop checks on the gunners
1)Because those are the only ones getting shot at night, so they have a greater chance to save them
2)Because once all the scum from the non-gunners are killed, we need to find the SK/GF. If blues check those players, then it's more likely they can find the SK/GF for us so we have it easier later.
That was the way it would work in the 1st game.
Now that I think about it the "SK or scum can steal guns at night" thing if RoL says the truth can change it a little bit
What do you guys think? Any way to improve it if it's worth it? Or is it unworthy? This is an excellent plan, which I believe would give town a great chance of winning; I doubt a mafia would suggest it.
Also, something I found along the way. Pretty sure
1) We'll run out of things to say or just go in circles
2) Ace will probably put a limit on like 48 hours and then we just "no shot" and move straight to night
3) Someone will probably get trigger happy and shoot anyway.
I want gonzaw to shoot. We already had 24 hours of discussion since night 0 happened, we've got our suspicions. Let's go gonzaw, chop chop. Chaoser wanted Gonzaw to shoot at dawn, effectively killing 24 hours of discussion. That's exactly what scum would want to happen. In this post he already starts to distance himself from any potential Gonzaw death (because he knew he was town). Calling gonzaw plan "This seems like the genuine thing a mafia wouldn't say." is bullcrap since scum always come up with plans so we discuss the plan instead of actaul scumhunting. Its also easy to make it look like you are contributing when posting plans and talking about said plans. (See RoL in storm) He also starts a small "Chaoser is scum" notion throughout the post because chaoser is pressuring gonzaw saying he should shoot now. But chaoser had a pretty legit reason: Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 13:31 chaoser wrote:(Unless you want him to shoot right away as a proof of his possible towny-ness, or at least gun ownership, while effectively modkilling the SK if we've understood right how the role works?) Bingo. I think he's scummy and also unlikely to be SK and so why not kill two birds with one stone. So no reason for zentor to call chaoser scum. Getting the SK so early because of technical rules would have been great at the same time pressuring someone chaoser thought was scum. And note that Chaoser flipped town. Also note that chaoser posts was before any claim from RoL being shot and saved thus making his logic quite good. + Show Spoiler [Zentor trying to get a chaoser wagon g…] +On June 12 2012 23:46 MrZentor wrote:
Gonzaw should shoot chaoser. On June 12 2012 23:52 MrZentor wrote:
Chaoser said that he didn't want to wait 24 hours and that he wanted Gonzaw to shoot a few minutes after the day post.
Check your facts. On June 13 2012 00:01 MrZentor wrote:
Do you agree that Chaoser is scummy? Then Gonzaw gets shot. Kita comes in and calls us all idiots for killing him: + Show Spoiler [Kita's post for reference] + On June 13 2012 10:50 kitaman27 wrote:
I was writing up a nice long post about how gonzaw should be the last person we should shoot and I got ninja'd by like 3 min. -_-
Why shoot the claimed cop day one when he could either tie up the roleblocker in a watcher setup, take a night hit, or provide an additional check. You can all yell at me for complaining after the flip, but that's a poor decision.
I'll stop by tomorrow evening before the night post with thoughts for day two. . Kita had some, in my opinion, good reasons to call us stupid. But then Zentor post this: Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 12:07 MrZentor wrote:
I don't see how anybody could have thought Gonzaw was scum after that claim.
The balls of steel was the sort of detail which sum doesn't have the time or energy to fabricate. Thats some weak ass reasoning as to why killing gonzaw was stupid? "lolz why didn't you idiots beleive him? He wrote balls of steel!" (<-- is my own interpretation) I think toad also touched on why this is stupid. Scum is sometimes given fake roleclaims that look like they were made by the host. So the BoS thing is total irrelevant. But look of it connects with Zentor distancing him from a townie flipping gonzaw. After chaoser flipped town Zentor needed someone new to push as scum. Why not go back to one already being discussed and in focus? RoL! With this: Show nested quote +On June 14 2012 11:17 MrZentor wrote:RoL talked about all the downsides of claiming millers, then claimed to be a miller. + Show Spoiler +On June 12 2012 09:50 marvellosity wrote:gonzaw, you've just made me read all the setup speculation on Millers. Damn thee. There is so much I do not like about the claim. Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 04:20 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
Alright, finished reading.
Any plan that involves millers and role checking is quite stupid. There are so many things that can interfere with proper results that it hinges on nothing. Anyone advocating some sort of role centric plan needs to shut up. It won't work, we don't even know if all the roles in the OP are the only roles in the game, but even from what we can tell it is still a crap shoot and it could only get worse.
I agree with what Chaoser said. If we think someone is scummy, we make them shoot who they think are scummy. If they can't shoot and can't explain themselves then we just kill them. Problem solved. On the off chance the DT figures out his sanity and claims to have found someone a Miller claim CANNOT absolve them. A DT will only get a red check back on non GF roles if his sanity is known. The non GF roles cannot shoot, so they would need to shoot to prove they are a Miller.
That claim can literally never work.
There is only one actual benefit of a Miller claiming in this set up. Hypothetically its day 5, we need to kill a mafia and the DT claims knowing his sanity and has a red check on someone. Assuming that person has NEVER shot during the day then he can now shoot to prove that he is not scum but a Miller. There is no way scum can emulate that play to the point where it would help a Miller to claim earlier on. The only thing that this helps is preventing a cop who knows there alignment to claiming publicly in that one very niche scenario.
In that scenario the N1 Miller claim would save the cop from going public. That is the only benefit. So does that single benefit justify having someone claim Miller? I can't see why someone would ever get shit for claiming Miller. The only mafia benefit to claiming Miller would be to avoid a RC but the only one who can do that is the GF who would get outed by a DT check and would prefer to get DT checked anyway.
The same thing applies to SK's.
Anyone faking Miller would eventually just get outed by some means and its not worth it. So I guess there is only that one benefit, but there is no real drawback besides people wasting time speculating on why someone claimed Miller.
But hey, since I outlined all the reasons above and there are no true drawbacks, might as well claim that I'm a Miller. Green text: Outlines in some depth how little benefit there is to Miller claiming in this setup. He calls the benefit a 'very niche' scenario. Red text: Having outlined why it's barely beneficial if at all to claim Miller, he leaps into categorically saying no-one should give miller claims any shit. Claims at the end he 'outlined all the reasons'. All the reasons? He clarified himself it would only help in a 'very niche scenario'. What gives? He then says mafia have no reason to fakeclaim miller. He's actively pushing this to discredit the notion. Blue text: Also see post below, but this looks like an attempt to halt any discussion of his miller claim. Because we're so busy on Night 0, right? Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 06:05 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On June 12 2012 04:55 FreelanceSatan wrote:On June 12 2012 04:37 chaoser wrote:
Isn't it Night 0? As in mafia get to do night kills if they want to? why did RoL claim miller already... yeah i didnt even think about that..looks like he jumped the gun a bit there.. what are the chances the mafia would want to shoot him instead of shooting for blues tho? It's not really a big deal. Half the reason I considered not claiming at all was just because I didn't think it was worth considering whether or not I was a Miller. I am sure if I continue being alive they will try to make me suspciious because of that. Or killing me, whatever. There is a chance that a medic could be on me because I claimed and they would be wasting their first hit. There is a number of things they have to take into account. Ultimately, I'm not really worried and whether I die or not its not that big of a deal. Again with the blue text, pushing the idea that talking about his claim is a bad thing. To the bold and underlined: twice he says his claim is not a big deal. More language in the middle with 'or killing me, whatever'. Basically totally flippant and acting unconcerned about it. Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 06:06 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On June 12 2012 04:58 Toadesstern wrote:On June 12 2012 04:55 FreelanceSatan wrote:On June 12 2012 04:37 chaoser wrote:
Isn't it Night 0? As in mafia get to do night kills if they want to? why did RoL claim miller already... yeah i didnt even think about that..looks like he jumped the gun a bit there.. what are the chances the mafia would want to shoot him instead of shooting for blues tho? about 0. I actually thought there's no way that's really a claim because that would be stupid. Maybe it's a trick to survive d0? :p Let's start the wifom machine lol. And here comes that suspicion thing I was talking about. It's the only downside I perceived of claiming regardless of timing. Idiots will always over-analyze shit for no reason. However that wasn't something I could articulate without just saying people are dumb and we can't work around them being suspicious of a miller claim regardless of how illogical it is for any non-town person to do it. Look at the change in tone! From his original claim with his "hey, I guess I'll claim miller" casual attitude and subsequent post with the 'whatevers' and 'it's not a big deal' he fucking jumps down Toad's throat. Now he's again pushing the idea that even talking about his claim is a bad thing. He admits here that he forsaw people being suspicious of the claim. Yet in his original post, the only 'benefit' he saw was with a very niche day 5 cop scenario. RoL said elsewhere in his filter that we should be working off behavioural analysis. I agree. I'm not questioning the claim because he claimed Miller, I'm questioning how he's gone about it. Scum. He claimed to have his gun taken away, which is really suspicious as it sets him up to look exactly like a mafia goon (appears red and can't shoot), and it seems improbable that either mafia or sk would have this power. On June 12 2012 13:54 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
Well I was shot last night but survived. I also had my gun taken away which is quite interesting. These things coupled with the fact that he hasn't been around for the entire night makes me doubt his claim.
Would anybody else care to comment? Zentor didn't actually write anything new about this. Well maybe the fact that RoL wasn't active during the night. Thats the only thing that have changed since Zentor wrote this: Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 23:17 MrZentor wrote:
RoL is most likely miller, as I doubt the mafia would make up something like that; the only suspicious thing is that now he appears exactly like a normal mafia goon (appears red and can't shoot), we might want to kill him in the future if we don't kill anybody who has the gun stealing role.
Originally, I was leaning toward Gonzaw being scum, but his posts have gotten more townie. However, he's still the most suspicious person, so I agree that we should have him shoot.
If we can't find an optimal person to shoot, I would encourage him to shoot into risk.nuke, Kenpachi, and payl.
Obviously we wouldn't allow him to choose who he shoots.
It doesn't make sense that Zentor should change his opinion about RoL for no reason at all. During the last part of this night Zentor also used the known scum tactic call: "No I don't! But he did! Look!" Show nested quote +On June 14 2012 12:14 MrZentor wrote:
I haven't been lurking for days. -.-
If you want to find somebody who has been lurking for days, look at Kenpachi. "I'm not lurking but kenpachi is!" Show nested quote +On June 14 2012 12:36 MrZentor wrote:It means he can't shoot for one day. And MZ, how is pointing out how lurky RoL has been and how that's terribly suspicious behavior for a person who claimed miller not original? Speaking of original content, I'd like some from you. Look at your last posts from the night. + Show Spoiler +On June 13 2012 12:10 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:
Check it out, Kita AND zentor show up to tell us how dumb we are.
Would have been just snazzy if you gentleman had actually been around during the day. On June 14 2012 04:37 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:
Тебе надо говорит по-английский On June 14 2012 05:56 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2012 04:39 VisceraEyes wrote:On June 14 2012 04:37 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:
Тебе надо говорит по-английский lol MZ any thoughts you wanna share? atm I'm at school getting ready for my last final so no lol. I still wanna kill zentor and the rastaban case looks decent from what I can tell. On June 14 2012 12:11 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2012 11:17 MrZentor wrote:RoL talked about all the downsides of claiming millers, then claimed to be a miller. + Show Spoiler +On June 12 2012 09:50 marvellosity wrote:gonzaw, you've just made me read all the setup speculation on Millers. Damn thee. There is so much I do not like about the claim. Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 04:20 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
Alright, finished reading.
Any plan that involves millers and role checking is quite stupid. There are so many things that can interfere with proper results that it hinges on nothing. Anyone advocating some sort of role centric plan needs to shut up. It won't work, we don't even know if all the roles in the OP are the only roles in the game, but even from what we can tell it is still a crap shoot and it could only get worse.
I agree with what Chaoser said. If we think someone is scummy, we make them shoot who they think are scummy. If they can't shoot and can't explain themselves then we just kill them. Problem solved. On the off chance the DT figures out his sanity and claims to have found someone a Miller claim CANNOT absolve them. A DT will only get a red check back on non GF roles if his sanity is known. The non GF roles cannot shoot, so they would need to shoot to prove they are a Miller.
That claim can literally never work.
There is only one actual benefit of a Miller claiming in this set up. Hypothetically its day 5, we need to kill a mafia and the DT claims knowing his sanity and has a red check on someone. Assuming that person has NEVER shot during the day then he can now shoot to prove that he is not scum but a Miller. There is no way scum can emulate that play to the point where it would help a Miller to claim earlier on. The only thing that this helps is preventing a cop who knows there alignment to claiming publicly in that one very niche scenario.
In that scenario the N1 Miller claim would save the cop from going public. That is the only benefit. So does that single benefit justify having someone claim Miller? I can't see why someone would ever get shit for claiming Miller. The only mafia benefit to claiming Miller would be to avoid a RC but the only one who can do that is the GF who would get outed by a DT check and would prefer to get DT checked anyway.
The same thing applies to SK's.
Anyone faking Miller would eventually just get outed by some means and its not worth it. So I guess there is only that one benefit, but there is no real drawback besides people wasting time speculating on why someone claimed Miller.
But hey, since I outlined all the reasons above and there are no true drawbacks, might as well claim that I'm a Miller. Green text: Outlines in some depth how little benefit there is to Miller claiming in this setup. He calls the benefit a 'very niche' scenario. Red text: Having outlined why it's barely beneficial if at all to claim Miller, he leaps into categorically saying no-one should give miller claims any shit. Claims at the end he 'outlined all the reasons'. All the reasons? He clarified himself it would only help in a 'very niche scenario'. What gives? He then says mafia have no reason to fakeclaim miller. He's actively pushing this to discredit the notion. Blue text: Also see post below, but this looks like an attempt to halt any discussion of his miller claim. Because we're so busy on Night 0, right? Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 06:05 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On June 12 2012 04:55 FreelanceSatan wrote:On June 12 2012 04:37 chaoser wrote:
Isn't it Night 0? As in mafia get to do night kills if they want to? why did RoL claim miller already... yeah i didnt even think about that..looks like he jumped the gun a bit there.. what are the chances the mafia would want to shoot him instead of shooting for blues tho? It's not really a big deal. Half the reason I considered not claiming at all was just because I didn't think it was worth considering whether or not I was a Miller. I am sure if I continue being alive they will try to make me suspciious because of that. Or killing me, whatever. There is a chance that a medic could be on me because I claimed and they would be wasting their first hit. There is a number of things they have to take into account. Ultimately, I'm not really worried and whether I die or not its not that big of a deal. Again with the blue text, pushing the idea that talking about his claim is a bad thing. To the bold and underlined: twice he says his claim is not a big deal. More language in the middle with 'or killing me, whatever'. Basically totally flippant and acting unconcerned about it. Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 06:06 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On June 12 2012 04:58 Toadesstern wrote:On June 12 2012 04:55 FreelanceSatan wrote:On June 12 2012 04:37 chaoser wrote:
Isn't it Night 0? As in mafia get to do night kills if they want to? why did RoL claim miller already... yeah i didnt even think about that..looks like he jumped the gun a bit there.. what are the chances the mafia would want to shoot him instead of shooting for blues tho? about 0. I actually thought there's no way that's really a claim because that would be stupid. Maybe it's a trick to survive d0? :p Let's start the wifom machine lol. And here comes that suspicion thing I was talking about. It's the only downside I perceived of claiming regardless of timing. Idiots will always over-analyze shit for no reason. However that wasn't something I could articulate without just saying people are dumb and we can't work around them being suspicious of a miller claim regardless of how illogical it is for any non-town person to do it. Look at the change in tone! From his original claim with his "hey, I guess I'll claim miller" casual attitude and subsequent post with the 'whatevers' and 'it's not a big deal' he fucking jumps down Toad's throat. Now he's again pushing the idea that even talking about his claim is a bad thing. He admits here that he forsaw people being suspicious of the claim. Yet in his original post, the only 'benefit' he saw was with a very niche day 5 cop scenario. RoL said elsewhere in his filter that we should be working off behavioural analysis. I agree. I'm not questioning the claim because he claimed Miller, I'm questioning how he's gone about it. Scum. He claimed to have his gun taken away, which is really suspicious as it sets him up to look exactly like a mafia goon (appears red and can't shoot), and it seems improbable that either mafia or sk would have this power. On June 12 2012 13:54 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
Well I was shot last night but survived. I also had my gun taken away which is quite interesting. These things coupled with the fact that he hasn't been around for the entire night makes me doubt his claim.
Would anybody else care to comment? So zentor you've been lurking for days and when you come back this is what you decide to comment on? ALSO NO MORE FINALS!!! On June 14 2012 12:13 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:
To clarify that last post, nicely done commenting on something that has been discussed to death. What about rastaban? On June 14 2012 12:15 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2012 12:14 MrZentor wrote:
I haven't been lurking for days. -.-
If you want to find somebody who has been lurking for days, look at Kenpachi. Do you have anything original to add? On June 14 2012 12:23 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:
I'm off to play some celebratory LoL, I'll check the thread when I'm done.
I'm really liking the idea of having rastaban shoot zentor, thoughts? What can a reader get from these posts? That you want me dead, you like the Rastaban case, and you think I lurked a bunch. "I'm not posting anything original. But neither are you!" I say we kill Zentor today!
In this post he already starts to distance himself from any potential Gonzaw death (because he knew he was town). Calling gonzaw plan "This seems like the genuine thing a mafia wouldn't say." is bullcrap since scum always come up with plans so we discuss the plan instead of actaul scumhunting. Its also easy to make it look like you are contributing when posting plans and talking about said plans. (See RoL in storm)
He also starts a small "Chaoser is scum" notion throughout the post because chaoser is pressuring gonzaw saying he should shoot now. But chaoser had a pretty legit reason:
I'm not "distancing myself from any potential Gonzaw death." I'm saying why Gonzaw is innocent, because he clearly was. It would be really sad if you guys ended up killing me, because I can read Gonzaw better than you can. -.- I didn't say of Gonzaw's plan "This seems like the genuine thing a mafia wouldn't say." You're misquoting me. 
Chaoser telling somebody to shoot a few minutes into the day because "he's scummy and also unlikely to be SK" is a pretty terrible reason. It ended up being okay, because of chaoser's role, but a normal VT shouldn't take that wager, as it could end with a bullet in your head, a day of discussion for town gone, and a decent excuse from the godfather/sk.
Thats some weak ass reasoning as to why killing gonzaw was stupid? "lolz why didn't you idiots beleive him? He wrote balls of steel!" (<-- is my own interpretation)
I think toad also touched on why this is stupid. Scum is sometimes given fake roleclaims that look like they were made by the host. So the BoS thing is total irrelevant. But look of it connects with Zentor distancing him from a townie flipping gonzaw.
After chaoser flipped town Zentor needed someone new to push as scum. Why not go back to one already being discussed and in focus? RoL! With this:
I wasn't aware that the host gave mafia sample role pms. (A good reason for why I'm not mafia. :p) So I was wrong for calling you guys stupid for that reason, but killing Gonzaw was pretty clearly the wrong thing to do. :/
It doesn't make sense that Zentor should change his opinion about RoL for no reason at all.
That's funny because you posted the reason earlier.
the fact that RoL wasn't active during the night.
"I'm not posting anything original. But neither are you!"
In the quote you used, I gave MZ a summary of my recent original content.
And MZ, how is pointing out how lurky RoL has been and how that's terribly suspicious behavior for a person who claimed miller not original?
And you can add that I showed why MZ hadn't posted anything with content recently.
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MZ, look at my past games.
Apparently I always look scummy regardless of alignment. -.-
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MZ, let's play a game.
Find a game where I was town and wasn't lynched by town besides GoT mafia.
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On June 15 2012 04:56 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2012 04:53 MrZentor wrote:
MZ, let's play a game.
Find a game where I was town and wasn't lynched by town besides GoT mafia. That's literally exactly what I'm referring to in my last post. Rather than say "lol I always get lynched" why don't you prove your townieness by being useful. You'll notice that the people who are active and contributing are not up for lynch today. If you were town you could at least try to play instead of saying "I'm bad." ffs this is almost claiming scum -_-
I showed why all the cases against me were ridiculous. -.-
I would like Cephiro to shoot Payl or vice versa.
I'm going to a going away party for a good friend of mine moving to another state, so this is probably going to be my last post of today.
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Toad, Payl, and Rastaban are extremely suspicious.
I think we should have Rastaban shoot Toad, but I would also be willing to shoot any one of them to prove I have a gun.
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A lot of people have talked about their suspicions of toad and their reasons. He seems like the best target right now.
If I were to tell you why Toad is mafia, I'd be copying a bunch of other people.
Talis's comments about rastaban and me say nothing about our alignment, as it's just a bunch of WIFOM.
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Well, the first 3 pages of Toad's filter is him talking about the setup and a bunch of stuff that isn't scum hunting.
One thing I found that seems especially scummy is his response to RoL trying to shoot him.
Look at it from a town perspective: RoL claimed to not have a gun. He tries to shoot you. If he lied about his gun and actually ends up shooting you, he's basically confirmed scum. If he actually doesn't have a gun like he claimed, nothing happens.
It's a win win, but look at Toad's response.
On June 13 2012 06:10 Toadesstern wrote:
wat
On June 13 2012 06:10 Toadesstern wrote:
are you crazy, wtf is wrong with you
On June 13 2012 06:11 Toadesstern wrote:
ooh. holy crap don't scare me like that...
This is the response I'd expect from scum. They're so afraid of getting killed, especially first day, that they overreact and completely disregard all past information.
And recently, Toad claimed he couldn't read Talis, which is basically the easiest thing for scum to do. (and he tried to kill me)
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The only reason you'd do that as mafia is if you knew I were a blue, but I'm not.
The only reason you'd do that as town is if you were confident that I was scum and didn't have a gun. I'm obviously not the godfather as rastaban posted, so you're betting your life on having the correct read on me. -.-
I hate to sound fickle, but I'd rather shoot Payl. :/
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Then again, you could be an extremely clever mafia, knowing I wouldn't shoot you because you telling me to shoot makes you seem townie, but that seems kind of unlikely.
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...........................................MRZENTOR
........................................./.......................\
....................................is mafia...............is town
.......................................|..............................|
............................doesn't have gun...........has gun
.........................../..........................................|
...doesn't shoot tomorrow....................shoots somebody
.................|.........................................../...............................\
........gets shot in the face.....who is probably mafia......who is probably town
.................|........................................|..............................................................\
........1 dead mafia.....MrZ is town and we might get a mafia.............MrZ is town and we shot a town person for no reason
That was fun.
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Your insistence on me shooting you makes me think you're not mafia. >.<
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So, Toad, you now agree that instead of me shooting you, I should shoot somebody who seems more scummy, right?
+ Show Spoiler +
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Let's say your town.
You know when I shoot you, we'll have a 0% chance of getting mafia.
Yet when I shoot Payl, if he flips town, I get shot.
So you're forcing me to shoot a townsperson.
And you don't see a problem with this?
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MZ, even if supersoft ended up being the godfather, you still did the wrong thing, because you got rid of 24 hours of discussion for town for no reason.
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I was, Kenpachi, then I thought you were either town or a mastermind scum, and I don't think we have time for chasing after conspiracy theories.
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Guys, I just thought of something.
There's probably no godfather, as it would be op with the gun stealing role, because scum could shoot 4 days in a row.
So all the mafia left can't shoot, right?
So everybody who has shot is confirmed!
So we shouldn't kill MZ.
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On June 17 2012 12:59 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 09:25 layabout wrote:I think we should make use of the daytime before shooting. I doubt that Meapak is a godfather. + Show Spoiler +I think it has already been said but talismania's role makes the existence of a godfather role very unlikely (although set-up speculation and trying to second guess the host is a little dodgy).
When you consider the power of the godfather role one can't help but feel that Meapak being a godfather would be absurd.( A godfather can daykill town to end the day and use their nightkill.) I doubt that Meapak is the SK. + Show Spoiler +If there was no medic protect then i fail to see why Meapak would do what he did as an SK.
If no one claims a medic protect then it is unlikely that he is an SK.
If that is the case then Meapak is probably town. + Show Spoiler +His shot was reckless and recklessness is more of a town trait than a mafia one This is because mafia often feel like have to act carefully and think things through thoroughly before acting 1. Godfather role probably exists. I don't know why anyone would think Talismania's role excludes the possibility of a godfather. That is retarded. 2. I explained why this would be a dipshit mafia move. I'm not going to do it again. 3. If there WAS a medic protect then it would clear meapak from being the SK. No one claimed it though. If there is NOT a medic protection then it could mean the SK held his hit, either that or the mafia + SK hit the same person. Unlikely. You are wrong.
How is it likely that there's a godfather?
If the mafia has a godfather, with Talis's ability, they could shoot four days straight. With two kills each night, that means 12 dead people without the town being able to do anything. If they started on day 3, they could easily wipe out the rest of the town.
There is no way there's a godfather.
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Even if it were one shot, with the godfather, 9 people could die without the town being able to "lynch" anybody.
That's 60% of the townspeople.
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I guess it's possible that there's a godfather, but I doubt he would do something as obviously scummy as shooting a confirmed townsperson a few minutes into the day.
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Then why would you kill him? >.<
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But he can't be because of this.
On June 17 2012 11:46 Ace wrote:
Ignore the part of the role PM that says the SK has to shoot at Night or Day.
Unless the host is purposely trying to trick us, there would be no reason to say this if the the SK had just shot during the day.
It seems way more probable that the SK was holding his night kill, planning on killing during the day, but was ninja'd by MZ.
I have no idea why you shot him.
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I guess Ace was right.
Policy lynching is good.
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Payl if my conversation with toad wasnt clear enough I have a gun.
I think kenpachi should shoot zealos tomorrow but I would be fine with shooting him myself.
I am probably not going to be as active as usual because my wifi is down and to access the internet I have to go outside and steal my neighbor's wifi.
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We're having a 48 hour night? 0.o
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Yeah, Zealos, there's no reason for layabout to post it now, and you're a lot scummier than he is.
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-.-
I told you to not shoot layabout.
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Dirk, we have some discussing to do.
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Yes, but you should have still listened to me; maybe I could have convinced you to shoot dirk.
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Okay Dirk, I don't want town to win, and you trying to kill the SK instead of focusing on things like killing confirmed townies has put us in a terrible position.
Sadly, we can't both win, but shouldn't we be able to both agree to randomly decide who gets to win, so we don't accidentally let town win?
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This is exactly like the prisoner's dilemma.
Two men are arrested, but the police do not possess enough information for a conviction. Following the separation of the two men, the police offer both a similar deal—if one testifies against his partner (defects/betrays), and the other remains silent (cooperates/assists), the betrayer goes free and the cooperator receives the full one-year sentence. If both remain silent, both are sentenced to only one month in jail for a minor charge. If each 'rats out' the other, each receives a three-month sentence. Each prisoner must choose either to betray or remain silent; the decision of each is kept quiet. What should they do?
If we both rat each other out (shoot each other) then we lose.
If one person shoots the other, and the other person shoots RoL, then the betrayer wins.
HOWEVER, if we cooperate, we can each choose a townie to kill, then from there we can decide how to randomly decide who wins, ensuring that town doesn't win.
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Oh and Zealos, at that point, during the day, you would have absolute power over whether he lives or dies, there's no way you'd not kill him.
In our situation, if we kill the other person, the other person will probably kill us, which means neither one of us wins. So this encourages us to not back stab our friends.
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Oh but you would, as a confirmed ally of somebody who can kill, you have a lot of power over who RoL shoots.
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Okay, I have an idea. I'm going to shoot Zealos tonight, because he's really annoying.
If you kill me, RoL will shoot you in the morning, and town wins.
If you kill RoL, we'll have made sure that there's no way for town to win.
Basically, you're going to lose unless you shoot RoL.
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He can trust me or not trust me.
The only chance of winning for him is to trust me.
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No, because once you two pests are gone, we can be fair about choosing who gets to win.
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Well, with his roleblocking role, he kills me, and I kill him, right?
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Okay, Dirk, in case you didn't understand:
I'm not shooting RoL, I'm shooting Zealos, so even if for some reason you backstabbed me, you'd lose. This encourages you to not do that.
If you don't shoot RoL, you're going to die tomorrow.
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*sigh*
I wish Dirk were here.
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So close.
I really wish Dirk had been there, so I would have had an idea of what he was doing. :/
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I feel like Dirk should have been replaced, so we would have had a chance of winning...
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On June 23 2012 03:39 gonzaw wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 20:11 supersoft wrote:
should have happened like this:
dirk roleblocks zentor and shoots RoL. Next day: nothing happens, next night: Dirk shoots and roleblocks zentor, next day: nothing, next night: dirk shoots zealos
it was a guaranteed win. Zealos had a gun didn't he? His bullet would regenerate at this point wouldn't it? Also yeah if the RB doesn't RB the SK bullet then it wouldn't matter Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 21:41 MrZentor wrote:
I feel like Dirk should have been replaced, so we would have had a chance of winning... ....you had like 99% chances of winning had you shot at day
That's if I knew that he wouldn't shoot me the night before, and I really didn't feel like staying up that late......
Also, I had a terrible amount of fun making ridiculous cases against random people and having other random people defend my bad play. :D
SK is the greatest role ever.
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EPT
