Newbie Mini XIV
Forum Index > TL Mafia |
hegeo
Germany194 Posts
| ||
hegeo
Germany194 Posts
On May 19 2012 10:54 s0Lstice wrote: agree that they are very lenient, i hope nobody skirts that line Yep, one post in 48h is pretty much a free win for mafia. So... one more person to start? | ||
hegeo
Germany194 Posts
| ||
hegeo
Germany194 Posts
What is the priority of role actions at night? Defensive/RB/Framer actions generally before kill actions or is there another distinct order? E.g. does a framer who gets killed by a vig at night still frame his target that night or does killing also work like a RB? | ||
hegeo
Germany194 Posts
| ||
hegeo
Germany194 Posts
| ||
hegeo
Germany194 Posts
| ||
hegeo
Germany194 Posts
We may wait for thoughts from Mufaa and Shiaopi, but generally, having 7 of 9 players agree on it is pretty much the best case scenario already... | ||
hegeo
Germany194 Posts
VE, are you OK with a 7:30PM EST deadline? We all pretty much agreed on that. Gl hf | ||
hegeo
Germany194 Posts
On May 22 2012 15:41 Release wrote: I'll write a more detailed post soon but the reason to my aggressiveness is to make sure we don't end up saying "well, we have no solid case, so we may as well lynch [name]." I have read through some previous newbie mafia games where people are so passive that no one receives any serious heat whatsoever. When this happens, the conversation of hunting scum stops and people start discussing far less important matter (such as lynch vs no-lynch, who is what role, figure out who is town because we can't figure out who is scum). Also, passiveness towards active members shifts the heat towards the lurkers, which is the same as wasting a day. But i do understand where you're coming from, and it is not my intention to stop others from posting. Also, the reason i mentioned the way you used your previous game was that you had a point you wanted to make and your previous game was not entirely consistent with that point.(luck vs still want a lynch despite low chance of luck). Agreed. And just to give everyone once and for all my opinion on that (so that we can start scum hunting): We should definitely try to get a majority for lynching every day. Every no-lynch is a win for scum since they will kill one townie every night. Even if a pure luck based lynch is bad, it's even worse to not lynch at all. (This part is basically what others already said) Furthermore, I think it might be a good idea to not share your town reads early on, since this will make "weaker" town reads an easy target for scum and will give scum safety when they see themselves being seen as strong town reads. By doing so, they will need to justify their posts/opinions and it will be easier to keep the pressure high and find inconsistencies. | ||
hegeo
Germany194 Posts
On May 22 2012 08:44 Mordanis wrote: So my last game began with a discussion of whether to vote or not that wasn't very productive. We got lucky and scored a good D1 lynch, but it felt very, well, luck based. So I'll start this out by saying that if we don't lynch today, we'll probably be in a really shitty situation. In short, I am for a vote today. Also, it's good to be working together with Golden again! For Liquidia! Is this day cycle going to be an extra couple of hours? I only ask because it was in my first game and I'd like to make sure what the situation is. Thanks Do you know more than the rest of us? Why couldn't Golden be mafia (and you)? On May 22 2012 16:33 Mordanis wrote: I'd rather read a wall of text every 15 minutes than have no idea what people are thinking when they vote. Obviously we can't give any weight to the fact that he explicitly said he's town. If we did, everyone would, and we'd be back at square one, minus however many hours it took us to get there. I kind of agree on the fact that activity creates information, but walls of text (I take it you exaggerated to make your point) don't help automatically. But this was already said earlier, so I wont elaborate on that. On May 22 2012 16:33 Mordanis wrote: One last thing: That is pretty scary timing Hegeo. You don't post at all for the 5 hours after the D1 post (which is in itself understandable, with sleep and such), but then you post (to defend yourself) 3 minutes past the first time someone calls you out (sort of?). The coincidence seems just a bit much. As someone who has watched (too much) House, I don't really believe in coincidences. Admittedly, it is. But if I really wanted to defend myself at that time (against what I might add?), I would have mentioned the post. Truth is I read Miltonkram's post after I posted mine, from now on I will always refresh the thread before I post then. | ||
hegeo
Germany194 Posts
Just fluff therefore spoilered: + Show Spoiler + I think sciberbia did a somewhat good job structuring his post to make it easier to read. I could clearly get his point, although he repeated his thoughts. | ||
hegeo
Germany194 Posts
Hey Release, some thoughts about your posts, and why I think you're not always helping town with them: On May 22 2012 14:35 Release wrote: 1) Of course we should lynch. a)Anyone who doesn't vote for a lynch is immediately put under suspicion. I am getting awfully suspicious of you because of this post: First, you ask a question to which both myself and Mordanis have answered yes to. If you wanted to further ask the others, there is no need to include the small tidbits of information that don't really help people make an informative decision. In fact, the part where you include Role... Role ... Role.. looks like an attempt to confuse people. Second, your second question is a mere restatement of your first question with even more filler. Why do you feel obligated to post this if it doesn't contribute to do anything useful? a) Even though I understand where you're coming from, this is kind of pseudo-pressuring people, which is futile in the beginning of the game. This makes for an anti-town-atmosphere, since posting should be encouraged. On May 23 2012 00:30 Release wrote: We need to start panicking if no one votes and it is a short time before the deadline. This is textbook no lynch territory. In this case, we need to start piling our votes on one candidate who has appeared the most scummy. b) Worst case scenario, we look at lurkers and choose to lynch one of them. Still, c)we need more information, especially because this is Day1 and we only have some 8 hours left and no concrete scum yet. b) It's not the best case to lynch lurkers, but if they don't contribute to town then it is at least good riddance. c) You are posting at least a considerable amount of non-productive posts right now, e.g. to this post... On May 22 2012 18:06 O.Golden_ne wrote: Please dont focus on the semantics so much Release. + Show Spoiler + A better word for "mistake" in this context is "slip", and i advise people to use slip in the future because it more accurately denotes what a bad mafia would do. ... your answer was this: On May 23 2012 00:24 Release wrote: From Newbie II game + Show Spoiler + Probulous got a AKCT lynched. That was a mistake. He was clearly contributing so even though he made a mistake, he shouldn't get lynched. (he didn't) Sheth however, does slip in trying to save his scumbuddy and got lynched for that. You consistently do this "#FOS"-stuff On May 22 2012 09:08 Release wrote: The useful part of your post can be summarized by: We should have a lynch today. A no-lynch would be detrimental. ##FOS: Mordanis and then, you FOS Sciberibia... On May 22 2012 14:36 Release wrote: EBWOP: ##FOS: Sciberbia ..before even un##FOSing Mordanis: On May 22 2012 15:45 Release wrote: EBWOP: I understand your post so for now: ##unFOS: Mordanis To answer in your own words: On May 22 2012 14:35 Release wrote: Why do you feel obligated to post this if it doesn't contribute to do anything useful? Even though there are many players that have a way shorter filter than you, what you do is generating "noise" (not always, you have your points that I can agree with and you definitely contribute). It seems as though you either just want to stir up anything you can (because both of these #FOSes came to nothing, which would make you a little scummy) or I read it as an overly motivated try to get information. | ||
hegeo
Germany194 Posts
(I was merely rephrasing this and putting it into my context). | ||
hegeo
Germany194 Posts
On May 23 2012 03:00 ShiaoPi wrote: @Sciberbia: The main thing about your suspicions on Milton is that nothing of the tidbits you gathered really struck me as: "well that's scummy" Since it is Day1 pretty much everyone's postcount is relatively low ... In terms of getting people's attention, nobody besides you, has really done something to get everyone on it. So in regards to that everyone would be suspicious. Well ShiaoPI, I wouldn't say so. On May 22 2012 18:47 ShiaoPi wrote: First of all we should definetly go for a lynch, no-lynch is (at least in my opinion) utter nonsense. Regarding Lurkers, I believe that they should be put under suspicion especially in a 9 player setup. I was in the same game as mufaa and lurking screwed us over pretty badly in a 13 player game. You only stated what several people before you agreed on, also regarding lurkers being a bad thing (I give you the benefit of the doubt here, since it is the first post and my first post was hard for me also). Several hours later, you also repeat what you said before, focusing Mufaa again. + Show Spoiler + (The point is not that you focus on Mufaa, I agree on that, it's the way you do it) On May 23 2012 02:43 ShiaoPi wrote: Since we all agree on lurkers being suspicious,... I would suggest taking a closer look on Mufaa. Although we are still in Day and the amount of posts is therefore pretty limited, his filter contains an amazing single post. I am not sure about his timezone but still a single post only? Maybe I am also biased as he was one of the lurking scum in Newbie Mafia XIII, but he really reminds me of his play in the last game right now... Why wouldn't you say "I said it before, and since he didn't post till now,..."? No, you repeat "what others agreed on". On May 23 2012 00:21 ShiaoPi wrote: + Show Spoiler + On May 23 2012 00:15 s0Lstice wrote: ---snipped--- ShiaoPi has a small filter as well. You just like that back off your suspicions on sciberbia? Scum post fluffy quasi-useful posts all the time. They want to appear to be contributing without actually saying anything incriminating. If you reread my first post on sciberbia I would have assumed that it was easily visible that I had a bit of concern regarding him but not really a suspicion. Regarding my small filter, yes I did not post much until now, but how come that you with the exact same amount of posts (since the daypost) can claim that my filter is small. This strikes me as odd. Why complain about my filter if yours is not that much as well? This post is practically without any new content but a defense. You could have said "I had no time/Wanted to see how things go", whatever... But you chose to say "You're not better than me". This seems like only searching for an excuse once other people target you. Zero content is also valid for this post here: On May 22 2012 23:22 ShiaoPi wrote: Maybe I should have rephrased my post on the suspicions towards you Sciberbia: I was not that much concerned about your absence but just on the amount of seemingly "useless" things within the post. Don't see anything wrong with your elaborations on it now. You also say that you ... On May 22 2012 18:47 ShiaoPi wrote: Just came back from university. but didn't add something with original content for almost 8 hours ?? (18:47-2:43 KST) To me, your attitude seem to be of an overall "maybe there is something, maybe not, who knows... there is not enough information... let's wait" nature. This sounded a little different in your post where you stated: On May 22 2012 18:47 ShiaoPi wrote: [...]we won't get anything worthwhile from just being nice to each other. Pressuring is a great way to get some more information and should be utilizied. What do you think about my points, ShiaoPI? What do others think? Synopsis: ShiaoPi has low content post, states obvious stuff and has vague opinions on others | ||
hegeo
Germany194 Posts
On May 23 2012 02:46 sciberbia wrote: Yea, I'd love to hear Mufaa's opinion on anything. Can I get some opinions on Milton? I really feel like I've got some solid stuff to go on, but so far 3 people have kind of disregarded it completely. If you disagree with my read, please at least say so. Well, at least I agree that I have no great town read on him. The "Hi I'm here why haven't XYZ posted yet" wasn't really helping. Let's see what he produces in the next hours. His "accusations" against you were imo also possible merely due to the fact that you were the first one to post long stuff, it is obvious that you were a nice target for so-so posting players. As ShiaoPi said, not sticking your head out protects you from such stuff, but I'm really happy that you started a real analysis of people's posts. What is your second scum read (if you don't want to share it yet, np)? | ||
hegeo
Germany194 Posts
| ||
hegeo
Germany194 Posts
I will answer as short as I can, but I also want to show you what I think of Mordanis' "claims" If anyone wants me to clarify my opinion on anything, please tell me (maybe Mordanis and release, could you spoiler longer posts, I think it would be easier for others to follow the discussion). I don't want this to be solely a direct answer to Mordanis. I would like everybody else to get an opinion on my agenda, therefore I added some questions. + Show Spoiler + Everything spoilered to make it easier for all to read and re-read. I repeat: WALLS OF TEXT ARE BAD FOR TOWN, WHEN UNSTRUCTURED. I saw at least 3 people follow my example. So I'm not the only one. Mordanis calls me out on posting directly after Miltonkram + Show Spoiler + On May 23 2012 04:05 Mordanis wrote: First off, let me clarify my earlier statement to Release. He was being too frightening, and discouraging posting, so I told him to be slightly more trusting. Since his two FOSs, we've regressed to a community of trust. The way people have been talking, there just seems to be no urgency. I feel slightly responsible for this, so I'll do my best to mend the situation. I don't get it: You say release was too agressive but after he stopped there was a "community of trust" till now that you (two) come back? Later on in your post you state "Do you see the passive aggressiveness?" when talking about me. I didn't trust anybody in the last hours, and tried to point out inconsistencies, without ever blatantly calling somebody scum for it. Mordanis calls me out on posting as a "knee-jerk reaction" directly after Miltonkrams first post + Show Spoiler + Hegeo has been very suspicious. To restate what I've already said, he did not post in the first 5 hours (in and of itself harmless), but then posted 5 minutes after someone called him out for not posting. He offered an excuse, but the most obvious explanation is that he was watching the thread, and had a knee-jerk reaction to being called out. To believe he began writing before he was called out, and posted after a few minutes is, frankly, well, let's just say its not a very high order of probability. The next question is why he would watch the thread without posting. I can think of no reason a Townie would do this. This is basically what you said before (yes, you stated it). You didn't add anything (NO additional content). I answered you directly after you asked me why I posted and explained what happened. Do others think a knee-jerk reaction is the "most obvious explanation"? And if this is of such importance for you, Mordanis: + Show Spoiler + It was 9:16AM when I posted my first thoughts on a post from 8:50AM (by release, which is 15:50 KST here), and I loaded the thread no later than 15:41 (I can't remember seeing his addenda). Since I was rereading what he said, highlighted stuff etc. in his post and since it was my first post, I was really careful with my wording. I don't see a problem there, maybe you still see it. If this is everything you have there, ok. Mordanis again on my first post and my questions to him + Show Spoiler + This is right after I first state my misgivings about his timing. Do you see the passive aggressiveness? He defends himself in a strange way. He says virtually nothing save a small excuse for the the timing of his post. I hope I answered you question already. You still just repeat what you said before. And I see no passive aggressiveness here (not in my explanation for the time of my post, maybe you meant my first statement that you mention later?). And I want to ask the others: What do other think about Mondalis' judgement here? First statement is the most absurdly WIFOM I've ever seen. It was hilariously passive aggressive. Second statement was just agreement with someone else (which he stated), and the third was basically just an excuse. I have a hard time reconciling his behavior with being town. Yep, my first statement was really not that great, it was bad to be honest with you, But still, it made you answer, and Golden already answered it before in a less condescending way. And all that while you say you saw "too much House" to still believe in coincidences I might add. On my post with thoughts about releases way of playing + Show Spoiler + Then he posts this gem: + Show Spoiler + On May 23 2012 01:29 hegeo wrote: Sciberbia bringing the heat via analysis, I like it. Hey Release, some thoughts about your posts, and why I think you're not always helping town with them: a) Even though I understand where you're coming from, this is kind of pseudo-pressuring people, which is futile in the beginning of the game. This makes for an anti-town-atmosphere, since posting should be encouraged. b) It's not the best case to lynch lurkers, but if they don't contribute to town then it is at least good riddance. c) You are posting at least a considerable amount of non-productive posts right now, e.g. to this post... ... your answer was this: You consistently do this "#FOS"-stuff and then, you FOS Sciberibia... ..before even un##FOSing Mordanis: To answer in your own words: Even though there are many players that have a way shorter filter than you, what you do is generating "noise" (not always, you have your points that I can agree with and you definitely contribute). It seems as though you either just want to stir up anything you can (because both of these #FOSes came to nothing, which would make you a little scummy) or I read it as an overly motivated try to get information. He praises Sciberia for "bringing the heat", and then spends the rest of the post explaining why Release's play has been suboptimal. I didn't praise, I was happy. At that time, there was not to much cross-analysis between posts, and since I realized that I wasn't the first one to start (I refreshed the thread before I posted, yeah!) I wanted to mention it. On release: I stated my opinion on, as I put it "why I think you're not always helping town with [your style of posting]". I don't see what's wrong with that. So why didn't you tell me what you thought about my post regarding ShiaoPi, and what I had to say about Sciberbias analysis on Miltonkram? On me, and that I "outright chasten[..] Release" + Show Spoiler + Sorry, did I quoted you wrong here? You said: On May 22 2012 15:08 Mordanis wrote: Also, Release: You're being very aggresive. Very agressive. I understand the need to get the scumhunt going as quickly as possible, but you've placed the only two players who have posted content under suspicion. I think this discourages people from posting content. Artanis, a player whom I trust, wrote that mafia are rarely aggresive. Based on that, I'll trust that you are just trying to get things stirred up. I just think that you're going overboard. We need to get the ball rolling, but we also need people to talk. So please stop with the extreme distrust for a while, and wait for a little while while everyone analyzes what we've just written. Also, I'd be very happy if you would be so kind as to explain to the rest of us why you're being so aggressive. If you really are town, then tell us, and trust us to be rational. If you're not, well you're certainly attracting a lot of attention. I just wanted to point out that I didn't want to repeat what you said. Do others think I quoted him wrong and do you think I did it in a dismissive way, hence "chastening" release? Mordanis says I post "shallow analysis", calls my activities "suspicious" again + Show Spoiler + I have no idea what he is trying to accomplish. He has only posted shallow analysis in which he deflects attention from himself. He hasn't really helped at all in the scum-hunt. He has very suspicious activities. So what new points did you bring up? That one of my points "against" you was ridiculous, which I admitted? That you don't like the way I post? I'm very willing to change my mind, as we aren't even halfway through the first day.That being said, we need to have more and better analysis if we're going to find scum. I think it is wrong to assume that everyone is innocent just as it is wrong to assume everyone is innocent. We need to cultivate a healthy distrust of everyone, but at the same time we need to be able to work together to hunt scum. We need balance. We began too distrustful, we are now too trusting. We must find a middle ground to be successful. You repeat what you say in the very beginning. I still don't understand, why you call me scum that "chastenes Release" is "passive aggressive", nevertheless interpret the current situation "too trusting". I don't "trust" you to be town, still, I don't think you're scum either (although there are many points in the post I'm answering trying to answer that look as if you wanted to persuade other players without real evidence, I leave that to the other players). ----------- But really Mordanis, what kind of "culture of discussion" is it, when you just say, asked by Sciberbia what you think of my posts on e.g. ShiaoPi : On May 23 2012 04:35 Mordanis wrote: I was actually ignoring them on purpose. /Out of game: + Show Spoiler + This is just sad. So why are you playing then? Call my posts bad or whatever, but please read them. /Back in game ----------- What I tried to do in the last 13 hours: + Show Spoiler + 1. Post original content as good as I can, analyses (good or bad, everyone can judge themselves) 2. Try to make my posts as transparent as possible (proposing tl;drs for easier reference, spoilered fluff, mentioned when I just repeated stuff) 3. Tried to NOT do this "'#FOS, XY is scum, I'm watching you" stuff since I don' feel the need to show everybody I'm having thoughts on things. 4. Tried to make sure that I ask people on their opinion/pressured them and was interested in THEIR opinion and explanations why they posted what they did when I wasn't sure. 5. Asked other people on wether they agree with me or not to promote discussions 6. Tried to cooperate with others that seemed interested in discussing (namely Sciberbia in the last hours) 7. Was the first to say that although scum reads should be actively discussed, we shouldn't mention strong town reads to make sure mafia can't profit. Now I will try to quickly answer release (then I have to sleep for at least 8 hours. Don't expect me to post or whatever.) | ||
hegeo
Germany194 Posts
On May 23 2012 05:25 ShiaoPi wrote: @hegeo: So you see me as scummy/suspicious? No, I merely asked you to comment (believe me or not, maybe my wording was too harsh), since in comparison there was really not to much original content. Now you post a defense which I can agree on for the time being. Let's take a look at your reasoning: I'll follow the chronological order of your post. So first off you scrutinize my first post and come to the conclusion that I am just repeating stuff, which has been said by others already. I actually see nothing wrong in joining a discussion that has already started. To me it seemed as they were asking for everyone's opinion, so I gave my opinion. If stating somebody's stance on something is scummy, well cannot help you then. You are right, I have no "problem" with it, but I expect anybody to analyze other players' behaviour (look at how people are starting to argue). I also stated (to quote my post: "I give you the benefit of the doubt here, since it is the first post and my first post was hard for me also") + Show Spoiler + Going on to the 3rd excerpt: You state the following: + Show Spoiler + This post is practically without any new content but a defense. You could have said "I had no time/Wanted to see how things go", whatever... But you chose to say "You're not better than me". This seems like only searching for an excuse once other people target you. I was being put under suspicion so I defended myself, sounds pretty reasonable? You can interpret text in many ways, if we assume that I said "had no time/wanted to see how things go", you can also claim that it looks scummy, it really is a matter of interpretation. I see nothing wrong with my defense, firstly I clarified my stance on sciberbia, then I point out a flaw in his 2nd argument. It's was basically to see how you react. I see nothing fishy in your response atm. Mordanis called me out for posting 10 mins after Miltonkram, this is allowed and good for town if things get clarified. I asked you directly and today and didn't bring it up 3hrs before deadline, so that you have time to discuss about it. Next snippet is me repsonding to sciberbia regarding my stance on him and as you take it out of context it looks useless. I believe it to have served it's purpose of further clarifying my opinion. Reread it, you are right. My apologies. Seems to me like a not too shabby way to play on Day 1. Not much yet you can base reads off and still quite some time to the deadline, whose approach always brings out the more mattering posts (at least in my opinion). Agreed. I just figured that we don't want unclear reads and too many lurkers before deadline. With this post here, you clearly did more Mufaa ever did in the thread, That was unclear for me before, and surely also for others. And I just saw your answer to Sciberbia: I don't think you're going at my throat. And please also try asking me when something I do is fishy to you. There is no scum hiding (perhaps a newbie player though) in my posts, and I'm willing to show that to you. | ||
hegeo
Germany194 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + On May 23 2012 04:45 Release wrote: On May 23 2012 01:29 hegeo wrote: Sciberbia bringing the heat via analysis, I like it. Hey Release, some thoughts about your posts, and why I think you're not always helping town with them: On May 22 2012 14:35 Release wrote: 1) Of course we should lynch. a)Anyone who doesn't vote for a lynch is immediately put under suspicion. I am getting awfully suspicious of you because of this post: First, you ask a question to which both myself and Mordanis have answered yes to. If you wanted to further ask the others, there is no need to include the small tidbits of information that don't really help people make an informative decision. In fact, the part where you include Role... Role ... Role.. looks like an attempt to confuse people. Second, your second question is a mere restatement of your first question with even more filler. Why do you feel obligated to post this if it doesn't contribute to do anything useful? a) Even though I understand where you're coming from, this is kind of pseudo-pressuring people, which is futile in the beginning of the game. This makes for an anti-town-atmosphere, since posting should be encouraged. b) It's not the best case to lynch lurkers, but if they don't contribute to town then it is at least good riddance. c) You are posting at least a considerable amount of non-productive posts right now, e.g. to this post... ... your answer was this: You consistently do this "#FOS"-stuff and then, you FOS Sciberibia... ..before even un##FOSing Mordanis: To answer in your own words: Even though there are many players that have a way shorter filter than you, what you do is generating "noise" (not always, you have your points that I can agree with and you definitely contribute). It seems as though you either just want to stir up anything you can (because both of these #FOSes came to nothing, which would make you a little scummy) or I read it as an overly motivated try to get information. + Show Spoiler + Response to a) my point was that contributing useless information is worse than having no contribution at all. My example was Sciberia's asking the same question twice, which has since, been given some clarification. I agree. At that time, I wanted to point out that I found it slightly irritating, that you would try to pressure people before seeing a considerable amount of players posting their thoughts and directly tried to pressure a post that I read pro-town. Mordanis critizised you for that also, not only me. b) Lynching a lurker is not "good riddance". I don't see why a townie should feel that way. Lynching a lurker (if there are more than one) is random to a townie, but clear to the mafia.+ Show Spoiler + The mafia will obviously choose the lurker whom is a townie, therefore causing us to mislynch. Advocating a lurker lynch instead of focusing on those who are suspicious is a Mafia's way of thinking. In fact, you don't even list some alternative, despite it not being a best case scenario. I said that it is not ideal to lynch lurkers. At the time I wrote that, 3 or more players didn't contribute anything (or not much). Still at this very moment, Mufaa hasn't written anything but "hello" basically. So we can't just let him stay in the game when he lurks in this extreme fashion. Do you agree on that? ------- + Show Spoiler + c)my answer was this: "My point is that Townies can make mistakes, but townies don't make slips. Mafia make can make mistakes; usually their mistake is to make a slip. I want to make that very clear. We shouldn't end up lynching for a mistake. We should lynch someone who makes a slip." From Newbie II game + Show Spoiler + Probulous got a AKCT lynched. That was a mistake. He was clearly contributing so even though he made a mistake, he shouldn't get lynched. (he didn't) Sheth however, does slip in trying to save his scumbuddy and got lynched for that. this was in support of the above point i made. Your c) and reasoning behind are Blatant Lies; you intentionally leave out my actual point to make it seem like i am posting filler. If i didn't know better, you know that i am town, and see that i am dangerous to your scum motives. You are targeting me with a weak case based on incomplete evidence. I misquoted you there, as you can see in your original post the text was somewhat strangely formatted, and part of the quote was displayed in normal fontsize so I misinterpreted it, your post makes more sense now, I apologize. ------- + Show Spoiler + In regard to the FOS before unFOS, i did it to show that i was putting both of them under suspicion. There are 3 mafia. I only had 2. Are you seriously trying to convince to to avoid the larger picture and completely ignore anyone (other than the person who i am targeting at the moment) who might be Mafia? The FOS's got people talking. Talking is good for the town. Again, this is an example of where you completely ignore the larger picture. Why don't you acknowledge that we (not only me but also e.g. Sciberbia) also tried to do the same that you say you tried, namely illuminate places where scum could hide? I called you, Mordanis, ShiaoPi (did I forget somebody?) out because of things that I was interested in, all of you answered and I tried to answer to your posts as well as I could. ------- + Show Spoiler + "overly motivated try to get information." All townies want information. After all, we don't know much. You however, seem perfectly content to let this day slip by without extracting a lot of information from it (presumably because you already have the information because you are scum). Please also try to quote correctly. I said: It seems as though you either just want to stir up anything you can (because both of these #FOSes came to nothing, which would make you a little scummy) or I read it as an overly motivated try to get information. I don't see anything wrong with my point here, I just wanted to make you aware of that. ----- I see no other option as of yet (or until you reply) but to: ##Vote: Hegeo So, I replied. In my answer to Mordanis, I added a spoilered paragraph stating what I think I contributed today (again, newbie here). I hope to read new input tomorrow morning, especially from Mufaa. | ||
hegeo
Germany194 Posts
Not too many new posts in the last hours, especially not from Mufaa: On May 22 2012 09:25 Mufaa wrote: I was Mafia in XIII and the amount of lurkers in a 12 person game ruined it. ... Sorry Mufaa, but you didn't post anything at all in 28 hours. Please get active. ##Vote: Mufaa | ||
hegeo
Germany194 Posts
All I can say for now is, that people should please look at my filter and ask yourself if you think I made my cases and if I tried to hide anythinf. I don't think shiaopi is scum, I stated it after he answered (cant quote atm so sorry, look it up). Be sure that I will not vote for mufaa in the end. Just tried to get him to post, I stated it at least three times before I voted. (From my phone so short, sorry) | ||
hegeo
Germany194 Posts
BTW: I didn't suicide. I played to win.I literally worked for hours on this. Sorry for the confusion I caused. | ||
hegeo
Germany194 Posts
Truth is, I have. You will see/saw how I flipped. I apologize for playing bad or not optimal, but all I want is to win. And I win with town, wether I’m dead or alive. Since I’m about to get lynched (or shot at night for that matter if I'm correct), I present to you evidence for a scum team, that seemingly decided to play this game not as lurkers, but the direct opposite. I’m not trying to defend myself here, I accuse. I urge you to reread my posts and all the others I quoted if you really want to go into detail here. It will take more time than you have until deadline. I understand. I worked as quick as I can. The bold/italics for orientation only. There are also important points I couldn't highlight anymore. The beautiful scum duo Release and Mordanis 1. The Start + Show Spoiler + They started the day with a wonderful pas de deux before the thread really started of. Release was the attacking part quickly ##FOSing Mordanis for his first post, also critizising Sciberbia for a question "myself and Mordanis" already answered and calls it “WIFOM” (remember that word please!). Nice. Mordanis then said he was "glad for your early FOS", but told him to be "slightly more trusting" and that he was "very, very" aggressive (also citing a very nice opinion form Artanis: "Artanis, a player whom I trust, wrote that mafia are rarely aggresive. […] So please stop with the extreme distrust for a while, and wait for a little while while everyone analyzes what we've just written." We've written? He also answered very shortly to the question “Sciberia” asked. Sciberia [sic]? But more on that later. Release then answered “I understand your post so for now: unFOS: Mordanis”. Nice and easy. Release asks Mordanis about his opinion on Sciberia’s [sic!] post then, Mordanis replies “he asks us what our stances are on these issues”. Interim findings: So what was established by them for now is that a) agressive/active players aren't scum (I mean, why would they be, they could lurk around which is easier!) so both of them can't be scum, right? b) They were attacking each other (kind of). So they can’t be scumbuddies, right? Why would they do so. c) Everytime it’s “us” or “we”. Aren’t they nice buddies? d) They talk about Sciberia. Not Sciberbia. 2. The Interlude + Show Spoiler + I join the table (and you will all now know my flip) and I find it kind of interesting what I read from them, but couldn’t see through it at that point. I ask Mordanis out about some of his points (just to start my day basically) about “him and Golden” etc. Golden answers me very politely, Sciberbia also joins and we are all (the others more than me I have to admit) talking about each others opinions etc., Solstice focusses Miltonkram etc. ShiaoPI weighs in, good vibes. When Golden calls him out, Release answers with an example from an earlier game (please remember the “earlier game” stuff), while he earlier stated (right in the beginning): “Also, why are you talking about the last game? You should be more concerned with this … This seems more like filler.” I agree with you. Filler here. Release also answers to Mordanis post from earlier, where Mordanis asked “When do you think we need to start panicking?” (Mordanis quickly adds that he means “this question for everyone”. Glad you added this) Release points out that “we need more information”. And answering to solistices post : “people need to post more”. Activity!! Sciberbia calls milton out, I mention releases posts (look at my original post!), also saying that “you have your points that I can agree with and you definitely contribute”. I also added that Mordanis also stated that he (Release) was aggressive earlier (this was merely to be careful not to be called someone who copies stuff from others). At that point, I wanted to clarify why the both of them seemed so close. That was aggressive, yes, but before that I still believed in a strong but maybe accidental coincidence. I hoped to get at least one of them talking. Since I wasn’t sure (and a little excited, my first mafia yeah!), I also critizised ShiaoPi for his posting, others added to this. In the end, I was satisfied with what he said in defense, I had (and have) a strong town read on him and told him that, when suddently… 3. … the enfants terrible entered the room again! + Show Spoiler + Mordanis starts with a red “hegeo”. Uh, uh, I am screwed. He defends himself by accusing me of suspicious posting times (I already made mincemeat of his arguments, now I don't have to repeat them). AND he also defends his best buddy Release (the whole “chastens Release“ stuff), and I make him very angry because I remind him of his post in the beginning (where he said agressiveness could make someone look scummy). He says my analysis is bad. If you think so, Release- but I got what I wanted. Sciberbia asks Mordanis what he thinks about my posts on shiaopi. I assume Mordanis didn’t read them (only the two about himself and his scumbuddy). So he states “I was actually ignoring them on purpose”. Releases’s entrance: A post, direct accusation, nothing else! At that time, I smelled scum. I pointed it out: “Wow, release and mordanis coming back at the same time!“ They didn’t care to answer (after all 40mins between their posts, could have made me look bad here). After seeing how I made them angry, no comment on this?? For your own protection I suppose. Release called me a liar, (he bolded it to make sure everybody sees it!) and said he had no other option than to “##Vote: Hegeo” And then this wonderful gem: He thinks 3 mafia are in this game? (See how he bolded these numbers? Give it a quick glance how much text he has bolded overall. He stated way more important stuff without ever bolding it.) NP, his buddy helps him out, with a smiley, citing the first page of the thread. 3mins (!) after Releases post, this answer is posted. He must have read all of Releases post, searched for the first page etc. I think, if you try to read Releases post directly after he posted it (so basically 15 secs after the post), can you read everything critically to this point AND see his mistake AND care about it more than about his points against me AND go to the frontpage AND quote AND add a little smiley face AND post it? Nice try. Also, NO interaction between those two in thread! No “hello”, I think hegeo is stupid what do you think? They are just silently working together as the tag team they are, trying to keep the pressure up. (Release also says he will post an analysis of my post on ShiaoPi, maybe Mordanis reminded him to do so to make it less obvious…btw Release doesn’t deliver at all in this context) 4. Here comes the heat + Show Spoiler + Sciberbia is active during this period (while I was preparing my answers) to ask the terrible twins about their opinions. He also claims that he didn’t “find [Mordanis points on me] very inciminating”. Time for R&M to act! Sciberia is dangerous, we need to isolate hegeo and make Sciberia stop! (At the same time, ShiaoPi answers to my post. So much to read and write for me!) Lot’s of cross-talk between people now, everybody asking everybody else (starting at May 23 2012 06:11) about opinions etc. I’m still writing. So Mordanis calls “Sciberia” [sic!] out, telling him “this is not a very high level game” and that he should “Compare [his-Mordanis] post to Hegeo's accusation of ShiaoPi.” Do you really want people to do so, Mordanis? Sciberbia refuses to take a hit for being called “passive-aggressive”, manning up. Asking others on opinions about me. And why shouldn’t he? Mordanis is fluffing around, no quality posts whatsoever. When Sciberbia doesn’t stop, Mordanis cites one of his older games as reason (quoting ShiaoPis post on me only being weird but most likely not scum): “Perhaps I am biased, but in my last game I read one player as an illogical townie, and he turned out to be mafia. This was embarrasing, but I read part of the scum QT, and all of the scum laughed at me for that read.” Funny. Your point? – We come back to that later. But wait - didn’t Release mention earlier that he didn’t like people talk about older games and critizised Mordanis for it,.. but wait, didn’t he himself talk about them as a basis of how to play? Still no cross-talk (reread the timeframe I mention! Compare what others do!) between R&M. I answer to Mordanis (I worked hard to show his lack of content etc and structured it the best I could, reread it), later also to ShiaoPi. Note that Shiao has a fairly logical stand towards me, he is not angry although I really may have sounded mean to him. Mordanis comment on my post: “Wow, so much anger. …I am actually a bit angry about Hegeo's response and the game in general, so I'm gonna take a bit of time off before coming back. “ So he goes away for a… no wait! He posts 5 minutes later that “On second thought, that was not as angry as I thought. Still, its time to take a breather.” Then he goes. Had to talk to Release I suppose, sadly not in our thread. Let me remind you again, they are freaking angry at me (well, I don’t really think they are, but not to shabby acting there). Wait… did you say “they are angry”? We only see Mordanis’s post…Well: Release joins the table (departure angry Mordanis, entrance angry Release again-May 23 2012 07:59) and gets insta-mad at Sciberbia and does his “##FOS: Sciberia”-Stuff. Oh, quite funny, “Sciberia” again. Why can’t the both of you (and ONLY the both of you) write his name correctly? Like in “NEVER EVER” (Well, release writes “Sciberbia” once in the beginning. Mordanis even before game start omits the “b”. Quite the influence Mordanis has on you Release, no?) He calls Sciberbias post “WIFOM”. Where have we read this term the last time… let me see…ahh yes, Mordanis said it to me. And Release earlier to Sciberbia in the beginning. (Later on, Sciberbia will cite this term only to defend himself when called on WIFOMing, no one else uses it) And the best part of his post: “Still, hegeo seemed much worse about his response to my post than you are to mordanis.”?? - Well did I mention they kind of care for each other? While Mordanis states earlier that “Also, I think that we should stop defending for other people.”( May 23 2012 07:01) Mordanis never calls Release out on that, nor does he thank him for his help. No comment. Ever. No exchange of reads. Nothing. 6. So, I mean you should get my point by now, but I will procede... + Show Spoiler + To remind you where we stand: Two “angry” scumbuddies try to suffocate everybody else, taking turns on targeting the more active/aggressive players towards them (well, one is only lurking right now, but the other one fights for two). Release gets mad at me not posting (while I said I would need time, and I answered to Mordanis and ShiaoPi in the meantime with pretty long posts. Remember, this is not my mother tongue, I need time to write stuff) He repeats “The longer you wait to respond to my post the more scummy you appear. Respond soon if not now!” which reminds me of his earlier “be warned”. Uh oh. Why don’t you ask Mordanis about his reads on people in the meantime, or at least commiserate in this thread with your angry buddy? I mean, my passive-aggressiveness made him so angry, why don’t you say a word when he gets out because he needs to calm down? Oh wait, you do. Kind of. You attack me again for what you state “misquoting” Mordanis words on you in the beginning (May I post out, that you at that point seem to have read my post from 80mins ago): ”But again you take Mordanis's quote (like you did with mine) way out of context. Mordanis said that at the start after my double FOS very early in the game. I changed, he acknowledged, but you are trying to create an illusion that this hasn't happened. (May 23 2012 08:31)” You changed? Right before that, in that very post, you ask me “Wtf is this shit?” I can find scumminess in virtually every post that you've made so far. Oh wait, this is what you said about me. So I have to quote it: “I can find scumminess in virtually every post that you've made so far.” Sorry. And he repeats himself again on that I have to post now or I am scum. Release, you seemed pretty convinced I was scum (fellow townies, you see how I flip(ed)- don’t know when you read it), you didn’t give me ANY benefit of the doubt. I granted it to you, ShiaoPi and Mordanis (again, reread my posts). You saw me as an easy target. And I was. Then I post my answer to Release (while he attacks sciberbia again, mentioning “WIFOM”). I wont elaborate on that. Read what I said. In his “answer", this sentence here is nice btw: Quoting my post (“It seems as though you either just want to stir up anything you can…” [read original for full context) he answers “That bolded part is the most ridiculous crap I've ever heard.” Here I just rephrased your buddy btw: He said (May 22 2012 15:08) “I’ll trust that you are just trying to get things stirred up.” And at last, your standard ceterum censeo: “this is WIFOM territory”. Townies, reread his posts. That brings us to the “end” of this action packed night. 7. The aftermath + Show Spoiler + Two angry scummies. And just to remind everybody that I am a threat to town, I will quote Release: “Since we are closing in on the Night post, we have a few things to decide: Which case is more important: The Solstice/ShiaoPi/Milton or the Hegeo case?” And one sentence later: “After Hegeo's lynch, you two are going to come under increasing pressure…” Or to paraphrase your intentions: Hey all, we need to kill him. He is a threat to…well, at least me and Mordanis. You know how I flipped. You know who never EVER questioned wether he was right in my case (not before I was No.1 lynch target). I started my day voting for Mufaa (Milton did it earlier without comments by our scummies, I did it just to see wether my scummy friends are still awake). And look who’s coming at me again! Release: “i think we can all agree that Hegeo is begging to get lynched.” “place a vote on Hegeo.” (he also notes: Funny: You wake up when i go to sleep.” – I posted at 7:50AM of my time after rereading parts of the thread. I went to bed 2AMish. A classical 0 content post) See how safe he felt! He calls me scummy for voting Mufaa (I mean, come on, at least I didn’t do this “FOS her FOS there, FOS everywhere stuff”. Even marv is laughing about it.) And… Entrance Mordanis again, being apologetic for getting angry… whatever (Mordanis, if you’re serious and /outofgame here, I appreciate it). But then, you have to mention your best buddy again: “And finally, I think that Release has pretty much posted a refutation of your rebuttal.” Before your closing remarks on my emotions (how poetic, “on emotion”), I will quote them in full length: “Hegeo's play seems to be ruled by emotion. This is exactly why I waited until I could be rational and logical before posting. I may have overestimated the amount of anger in this post, but I still believe there is a fair amount. Whether this leads to him being scummy or not is hard to say, but the atmosphere of emotion may have contributed to the lack of posting in the previous hours.” To quote you on that topic when answering ShiaoPi (May 23 2012 07:01) “...,my pride is seeking revenge for the scum disguised as illogical townie.” Your pride and revenge? As in emotionally motivated? And finally, “I'm nervous about not lynching because people are afraid to jump on a bandwagon so early, so I'll vote now. I will however vote for whomever we can muster a majority for. ##Vote: hegeo” What I would like you to do + Show Spoiler + Fellow townies. I worked on my case instead of being in thread the last hours (sorry for that, but if I die today defending myself against scum and you, the evidence I have gets lost). Sorry for not contributing today. As you may see from this, my reads on other people are not anti-town at least, mostly green. (Well Mufaa…) You see/saw how I flipped. I admit I could have played better. But after understanding, that I didn’t only hit one but the two scumbuddies at the same time (that also chose a very aggressive stance in this game), the game was basically already over for me, when I don’t get lynched I’ll die quickly afterwards though. I tried to make my points as you can see, there are also numerous smaller things that could be a coincidence once, but 30 coincidences? Really? I tried to find them for anybody else, drew a network diagram who interacted etc. Do it and you see what I see (if you are not convinced). I hope you consider lynching at least one of them on D2. They will try to tell you that there was “so much evidence” and what not, that I was aggressive, that they realized that there were other cases also later on and were to focussed on me because I called them out, how could they have known that, they will try to prove to you that they are town yadayada. They started putting votes on me. They only interacted in thread when universalities were discussed in the beginning and pressured each other in the beginning with a slight tickle. Contradictions en masse. Tag-teaming. Wording. Feelings. Pressuring. Pushing cases no matter what, agressively. See how they pushed their case. Their ONLY case (until it was sure I would be killed) Look at what I wrote. Reread it. It cost me many hours. If one of them flips scum, kill the other. Question their intentions towards each other, ask them to point out what the other did wrong. Force errors. Make them sweat. Look at how they behave in the near future.Don't let them pick on single points. Dear Mordanis and Release Hopefully, I can read your QT in a while. If you are just two townies, I nominated you for best tag-team ever, you get on like a house on fire. It’s so obvious I doubted my read in the beginning. Disclaimer: I never was really angry or whatever towards anybody, I merely wanted to state that. It’s a game. I hope my read is correct, and that you understand why I had to work on that case rather than having futile discussions (imo) in thread | ||
hegeo
Germany194 Posts
I just realized 15 minutes ago that it is nearly deadline. Copy-pasted it like crazy. And you all agreed on me, I wasn't sure I could defend me in thread, too much pressure. Good night all. | ||
hegeo
Germany194 Posts
"Also, no interaction between these two in the thread" ... Dude, thank you for that post. Townies, you see him? | ||
hegeo
Germany194 Posts
| ||
hegeo
Germany194 Posts
Was such a pleasure to play with you all, even though you killed me D1 (well, I feel I'm pretty much guilty of that myself). I'll post more later, just wanted to say that I really felt the Mordanis/Release interactions were soo weird. I now realize that for this to happen, not both (sorry Release ) but only one of them needs to play weird. Nicely played by you, Mordanis and Milton (Mordanis, don't feel bad plz, you two deserved it. One additional very active townie would have helped us perhaps, but even then it would have been hard for us). Also, rest of town, was a pleasure to see so much effort especially also on D2. Edit to clarify: with "weird" play (as in "scummy") I meant Mordanis, not Release | ||
hegeo
Germany194 Posts
On May 30 2012 15:14 Mordanis wrote: + Show Spoiler + On May 30 2012 14:54 hegeo wrote: GG Mafia! Was such a pleasure to play with you all, even though you killed me D1 (well, I feel I'm pretty much guilty of that myself). I'll post more later, just wanted to say that I really felt the Mordanis/Release interactions were soo weird. I now realize that for this to happen, not both (sorry Release ) but only one of them needs to play weird. Nicely played by you, Mordanis and Milton (Mordanis, don't feel bad plz, you two deserved it. One additional very active townie would have helped us perhaps, but even then it would have been hard for us). Also, rest of town, was a pleasure to see so much effort especially also on D2. If it makes you feel any better, I still don't understand what he was trying to do :/ And I feel bad because the game ended with a fizzle. If I had dug a yard under everyone else's plan and made the hoist to their own petard (Hamlet FTW), I would have felt great. The way things went though, it was just sort of a foregone conclusion, that was decided when the bandwagon started on Golden. I feel like I could have shown. That being said, Release apparently being convinced that I was scum without anything but a "this post doesn't make you shine as town", while being convinced that Milton was town after concluding that every action of his was scummy, and apparently still backing that up is still messing with my head. I have no idea why he didn't at least make a case on me. Perhaps he was fairly certain (as was I) that skware wouldn't return, and didn't want to put in several hours of work to make a solid case only to lose the game by the two scum refusing to vote (or vote for someone else). Quoting Hamlet, nice This one here always makes me think that Shakespeare already played some Mafia: All the world's a stage, And all the men and women merely players: They have their exits and their entrances; And one man in his time plays many parts So just for me to understand it: Did you really see this "passive-aggressive" stuff or an overly emotional tone in my posts? I'm just curious and since it's not my mother tongue I really don't know if you just misinterpreted me on purpose or not. FYI: I would have tried to lynch you D2 so hard (well, I already voted for you D1) and seeing your knee-jerk after my crazy post... To be honest, I hoped for something like that to happen. I also had the gut feeling that Shiao was town, that's why I said "it's not ShiaoPi" when you were trying to get a lynch between me, Milton and Shiao. And again: don't be disappointed, both of you! You weren't lynched at any point in time, so you must have done fairly well at least. | ||
hegeo
Germany194 Posts
All I can say for myself is that I was pretty confident about my read on you being town. One could see the effort and you also did a lot of structuring in your posts. I just wish I had made it more clear that I really thought Mordanis was scum because of his whole play on D1 (again, he was riding a dead horse attacking me because of one post timing, emotional fluff etc.), and not only because I felt that the Mordanis-Release thing looked scummy to me. This was my biggest mistake I suppose. | ||
hegeo
Germany194 Posts
My reading of your big post just prior to death was very much affected because I was trying to consider the argument as a package deal. It became difficult to separate Mordanis from Release... Well, that was also why I started the shit in the beginning (although I don't really think I poked too aggressively). When I decided to call people out, I didn't really feel that we as town were trying to force errors or to point out things we wondered about (Sciberbia pretty much said in his later posts about Mordanis that he wondered about some of the things too). After getting voted by Release/Mordanis, my train of thought was: + Show Spoiler + 1. You surely hit scum (either Mordanis or Mordanis/Release). You will die early (<=N1) since they were very aggressive towards you, but nobody else really questioned them in thread (I especially asked people for their read on me and/or Mordanis, for me it seemed like they believed him more). 2. When you die without making your case, your dead is surely in vain. 3. I was like 70%/30% sure my dead would come D1, with me trying to argue against Mordanis and Release (even though Release was town, he made VERY clear that he wanted to see me dead no matter what, others considered voting for me too) I might have shifted that to 50/50, still Mufaa wasn't there, so I wasn't sure (I also wasn't sure wether other blue roles were there, like a jailkeeper or whatever, so I didn't want to lynch ShiaoPi. Me dying in N1 for sure had also not allowed me to protect anybody). 4. While defending myself I couldn't have worked through the posts/filters, so 50% me dead and no information. Without trying to defend: 70% dead, but the best read I could give at that point in time. So I decided for the latter. | ||
hegeo
Germany194 Posts
Thanks for the input. Is claiming just a means to help town after I flip in case scum counter-claims? Or do you think that I could have saved myself by doing so? | ||
hegeo
Germany194 Posts
Lynching Milton would have pretty surely won us the game, but it was mostly my non-reactiveness in the hours before the lynch that made lynching me the more attractive option. BTW I think you did a good job on D1, I would have protected you N1 since my town-read on you was my strongest I sincerely also didn't know what else to do the hours before lynch to defend myself but to refer to my posts, since I felt I had addressed (more or less) every point Mordanis made up against me, and pretty much answered Releases' heated posts. ShiaoPi seemed to be OK with it, and you even were kind of defending me before. BTW I didn't do it before so: Thanks to VE and Marv for hosting this game! | ||
hegeo
Germany194 Posts
On May 31 2012 02:13 VisceraEyes wrote: It's best to look at the claim and see if it makes sense. If it doesn't make sense, then you lynch it. If it does, then you lynch the next target. You shouldn't blindly believe claims as they happen, but you shouldn't assume they're all a lie either. Like everything else in this game, you have to analyze it and see if it makes sense. VE, would you have believed me if I claimed in that situation? I just felt I had two of the most active and "established" players 100% against me, and no reaction to my questions about Mordanis' behaviour against me from the other players. And even if I didn't get lynched, mafia would have surely killed me N1. But you're right of course, we could have lynched mafia D1. Still, some players were against ShiaoPi so with Mordanis and Milton switching to him, we would perhaps have lynched him not me. But this is maybe too much of hypothetical thinking by me here. | ||
hegeo
Germany194 Posts
I pretty much agree with all you write, and I've learned a lot. Even though I have to do real life stuff at the moment, I'm thrilled to get back in game during summer. | ||
| ||