EPTI'm gonna be really mad if anyone leaves before they die... It'll be fun though with Marv cohosting :D:D:D:D:D
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hahahahahahahaha I'm editing for the sake of editing - In a mafia thread. hahahahahahahahahahahaha
Newbie Mini XIV
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Mordanis
United States893 Posts
I'm gonna be really mad if anyone leaves before they die... It'll be fun though with Marv cohosting :D:D:D:D:D + Show Spoiler + | ||
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Is this day cycle going to be an extra couple of hours? I only ask because it was in my first game and I'd like to make sure what the situation is. Thanks | ||
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Mordanis
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On May 22 2012 09:08 Release wrote: You say that you are for a vote, but you state that your other vote was luck based. Considering you said "very luck based", doesn't that mean to say that we are not going to experience the same luck? If we don't experience the same luck, we will very much end up lynching a townie, which makes your "for a vote" seem like you want to lynch a townie. Also, why are you talking about the last game? You should be more concerned with this game and find out ways for pointing out scum rather than ways not to. This seems more like filler. The useful part of your post can be summarized by: We should have a lynch today. A no-lynch would be detrimental. ##FOS: Mordanis First off, let me say that I'm glad for your early FOS. I was trying to think of a way to get the ball rolling and I just couldn't figure out how to do it. Let me try to clear up any confusion now though ^^ The reason I mentioned the last game I played is because it was the only game I've ever played before. To me it seems that referencing my only experience is quite logical. If it doesn't seem logical, I apologize! My reference was only a way for me to explain what I thought and why. The reason that I said that I'm for a lynch today is this: I think that in 99% of cases, a D1 no-lynch only ends badly for the town. There's no real information that is gained, All we really find out is that the player who dies during the night was town. If a vigi shoots during the same night, it really doesn't give us much info either (all we know is who died, and probably only a slightly over 1/4 chance of hitting mafia). However, if we do lynch, then we pressure the mafia to either defend their scumbuddy or let one of their own die. It puts pressure on the mafia, and we have a chance to get out to an early lead. Also, I look at it in a risk/reward way. If we lynch D1, our risks are (1: mislynch). That's basically it. That would put us in a 5vs2 against the mafia. Our reward however, would be (1: information, 2: potential scumlynch). We would have solid input from everyone, from which we could at least begin to unravel who the mafia is, who the town are, and who the lurkers are. On the other hand, if we start without a lynch, we have to stat virtually from the beginning, only we know concretely one person who is (read was) town. As to your concern, I do think that we got lucky in my last game. We lynched one of the lurkers who seemed only somewhat scummy, and he flipped scum. This time, hopefully, we will have begun the hunt for scum early enough that we will have a much better target than last time. My hope is that we will have a good candidate to lynch. If however, we get sidetracked and have no solid reads, I prefer a lynch of the strongest scumread who is also a lurker. That way, if we are wrong, we won't lose a critical part of the team. If only a couple of people are active today and we lynch one, that's sending a clear message that we'll lynch the people who are participating actively. I think its pretty obvious to see where that path leads. That being said, there is not nearly enough activity yet for me to decide whom I would support lynching. As to the questions Sciberia asked: I'd really support a lynch for anyone that could get a majority of the votes. In some weird situation where everyone decided to lynch the best, most logical player, I'd try to get a no-vote. In reality though, I trust my fellow townies to be rational enough to lynch someone who is fairly likely to be scum. + Show Spoiler [written after Release's second FOS] + Also, Release: You're being very aggresive. Very agressive. I understand the need to get the scumhunt going as quickly as possible, but you've placed the only two players who have posted content under suspicion. I think this discourages people from posting content. Artanis, a player whom I trust, wrote that mafia are rarely aggresive. Based on that, I'll trust that you are just trying to get things stirred up. I just think that you're going overboard. We need to get the ball rolling, but we also need people to talk. So please stop with the extreme distrust for a while, and wait for a little while while everyone analyzes what we've just written. Also, I'd be very happy if you would be so kind as to explain to the rest of us why you're being so aggressive. If you really are town, then tell us, and trust us to be rational. If you're not, well you're certainly attracting a lot of attention. And please, everyone, get active. We need a healthy discussion if we are going to lynch scum today. If we have 4 lurkers though, I don't think we'll do very well. | ||
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On May 22 2012 15:45 Release wrote: EBWOP: I understand your post so for now: ##unFOS: Mordanis What is your opinion on Sciberia's post as a "post"? (i'm not asking you to answer the question, but rather to view it from a townie/scum perspective.) I don't see any major reason for suspicion. All he really does is say that he's for lynch and against roleclaiming. This seems like a fairly obvious stance. Then he asks us what our stances areon these issues. If anything, this is suspicious because there are a lot of words to convey a few simple ideas. That being said, I think it is a good thing to convey thoughts completely. I'd rather read a wall of text every 15 minutes than have no idea what people are thinking when they vote. Obviously we can't give any weight to the fact that he explicitly said he's town. If we did, everyone would, and we'd be back at square one, minus however many hours it took us to get there. Frankly, this is a newbie game, and he seems relatively logical. Even though I'll never be able to say with 100% confidence that he is town, this post reads like an inexperienced town. That being said, I've dismissed a scum from my suspicion because I thought he was just being illogical, so I'd say we should keep our collective eye on him. I don't see nearly enough evidence though to push for a lynch. On that train of thought, when do you think we need to start panicking? I mean this question for everyone. If we panic too early, we'll vote early and have little information for that vote and also little information for the next vote. If we go to late, we risk a no-lynch, which as (I think) everyone agrees, would not be a good decision. I'm thinking that with about 12 hours left, we should start consolodating for a lynch. Can everybody be fairly active for at least a few posts in the 12 hours leading up to the vote? One last thing: That is pretty scary timing Hegeo. You don't post at all for the 5 hours after the D1 post (which is in itself understandable, with sleep and such), but then you post (to defend yourself) 3 minutes past the first time someone calls you out (sort of?). The coincidence seems just a bit much. As someone who has watched (too much) House, I don't really believe in coincidences. | ||
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Mordanis
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EBWOP: Just so everyone knows, I'm going to sleep and then I have a 30 mile bicycle ride in the morning. I may be gone as much as 10-12 hours. I'll try to get something in about 6 hours when I wake up, but I may not be able to if there has been a lot of activity. That being said, I really need the sleep now. 'Night All (except for mafia  )+ Show Spoiler + I love the Smilies & BBCode section :D | ||
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Hegeo has been very suspicious. To restate what I've already said, he did not post in the first 5 hours (in and of itself harmless), but then posted 5 minutes after someone called him out for not posting. He offered an excuse, but the most obvious explanation is that he was watching the thread, and had a knee-jerk reaction to being called out. To believe he began writing before he was called out, and posted after a few minutes is, frankly, well, let's just say its not a very high order of probability. The next question is why he would watch the thread without posting. I can think of no reason a Townie would do this. Then he posts this + Show Spoiler + On May 22 2012 19:54 hegeo wrote: Do you know more than the rest of us? Why couldn't Golden be mafia (and you)? I kind of agree on the fact that activity creates information, but walls of text (I take it you exaggerated to make your point) don't help automatically. But this was already said earlier, so I wont elaborate on that. Admittedly, it is. But if I really wanted to defend myself at that time (against what I might add?), I would have mentioned the post. Truth is I read Miltonkram's post after I posted mine, from now on I will always refresh the thread before I post then. Then he posts this gem: + Show Spoiler + On May 23 2012 01:29 hegeo wrote: Sciberbia bringing the heat via analysis, I like it. Hey Release, some thoughts about your posts, and why I think you're not always helping town with them: a) Even though I understand where you're coming from, this is kind of pseudo-pressuring people, which is futile in the beginning of the game. This makes for an anti-town-atmosphere, since posting should be encouraged. b) It's not the best case to lynch lurkers, but if they don't contribute to town then it is at least good riddance. c) You are posting at least a considerable amount of non-productive posts right now, e.g. to this post... ... your answer was this: You consistently do this "#FOS"-stuff and then, you FOS Sciberibia... ..before even un##FOSing Mordanis: To answer in your own words: Even though there are many players that have a way shorter filter than you, what you do is generating "noise" (not always, you have your points that I can agree with and you definitely contribute). It seems as though you either just want to stir up anything you can (because both of these #FOSes came to nothing, which would make you a little scummy) or I read it as an overly motivated try to get information. On May 23 2012 01:35 hegeo wrote: EBWOP: I forgot to say that I added the a),b) etc in italics and Mordanis already said that this kind of aggressiveness is not helping + Show Spoiler + (I was merely rephrasing this and putting it into my context). I'm very willing to change my mind, as we aren't even halfway through the first day. That being said, we need to have more and better analysis if we're going to find scum. I think it is wrong to assume that everyone is innocent just as it is wrong to assume everyone is innocent. We need to cultivate a healthy distrust of everyone, but at the same time we need to be able to work together to hunt scum. We need balance. We began too distrustful, we are now too trusting. We must find a middle ground to be successful. | ||
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On May 15 2012 06:28 VisceraEyes wrote: Player List 1.) Release 2.) Miltonkram 3.) Mordanis 4.) Mufaa 5.) s0Lstice 6.) sciberbia 7.) O.Golden_ne 8.) hegeo 9.) ShiaoPi Replacements
2.) Inigmaticalism 3.) austinmcc 4.) 2/2 Mafia Remaining Mafia KP currently equals 1 7/7 Town PM me for the observer QT, or if you wish to be listed as an official coach only two mafia :D | ||
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Mordanis
United States893 Posts
IDK how many games you've played, but this is not a very high level game. It is not even remotely inconceivable that an inexperienced mafia could panic, and then make an excuse for why he acted that way. I also included a fair amount of analysis of his posts, which seemed scummy to me. Compare my post to Hegeo's accusation of ShiaoPi. I have one solid fact and a lot of solid analysis. Hegeo just points out that ShiaoPi has a lot of filler content. Usefull information, but not very deep analysis. Also, I was posting that as much to generate discussion as much as to gather support for a lynch. It's early on in the game, but if we don't start throwing some accusations around then we'll be mired in inactivity, while the mafia picks us off one by one. And I don't see anyone you are considering lynching in your post. About Golden, I played with him in our last game. It's nice to see a familiar face. That's the only reason why. Basic human needs and such. The last four lines are jumbled between what I said and what other people said. I didn't understand them. If you'd clarify I'd love to comment on them as well. One final thing: I think the whole passive-aggressive thing needs to end. I understand that you don't want to be lynched (neither do I), but just being angry at one person for the sake of being angry doesn't help anything. | ||
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On May 23 2012 06:39 ShiaoPi wrote: I am unsure what to make of hegeo. The one thing which seems suspicious to me is his timing after being called out, the other stuff could easily be bad townie or careful day 1 play. Seeing that I am getting flak for my style it is easy to see why he gets thoroughly investigated now. What stands out from his posts is the analytical part. It seems to be lacking solidity to make the longer posts which he does not really support (see: + Show Spoiler + I kind of agree on the fact that activity creates information, but walls of text (I take it you exaggerated to make your point) don't help automatically. But this was already said earlier, so I wont elaborate on that. Basing from this statement he must himself believe to have solid cases going with his "wall of texts", but in my opinion they are not solid at all. Perhaps I am biased, but in my last game I read one player as an illogical townie, and he turned out to be mafia. This was embarrasing, but I read part of the scum QT, and all of the scum laughed at me for that read. Admittedly, he isn't the perfect case for scum, but my pride is seeking revenge for the scum disguised as illogical townie. Also, the case against Milton is pretty weak (even though he can't match what malt can do to justify God's ways to man). Solstice seems inactive, but I don't think there's been a very solid case on him. I can't even think of anyone else who has a group of people actively being suspicious of. Honestly, they're all sort of decent candidates for a D1 lynch, but I don't see nearly as much of an argument for the others as for Hegeo. Also, I think that we should stop defending for other people. This may go back to my being burned by protecting mafia, but I think it will be best for everyone to post their own thoughts on matters rather than explicitly rebuting an accusation. | ||
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Anyways, I am actually a bit angry about Hegeo's response and the game in general, so I'm gonna take a bit of time off before coming back. Hopefully that'll make the quality go up a few notches. | ||
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Also, a perfectly formatted wall of text may be easier to pay attention to, but the actual content is the most important thing. Reading comprehension is important in Mafia. That being said, it is possible to disguise a lack of content with novels of empty language. I haven't seen anything like that so far though. And finally, I think that Release has pretty much posted a refutation of your rebuttal. I think you should try to explain your innocence. Right now, you're looking like the most scummy player by far. You still might have time to derail the coming train of lynch votes, but you'll need to do a damn good job at this point to convince me or (I think) anyone. Personally I have a particularly difficult time viewing your emotional play as pro-town. That being said, I also have a problem with letting someone who posts once in the first day off the hook. At what point do we take action? If we always say that lynching the better read is the best option, mafia could post once a day and win ezpz. IDK if we need to send the message today or not, but I'm worried. + Show Spoiler [On emotion] + Hegeo's play seems to be ruled by emotion. This is exactly why I waited until I could be rational and logical before posting. I may have overestimated the amount of anger in this post, but I still believe there is a fair amount. Whether this leads to him being scummy or not is hard to say, but the atmosphere of emotion may have contributed to the lack of posting in the previous hours. | ||
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##Vote: hegeo | ||
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On May 24 2012 03:24 sciberbia wrote: I think we ought to have another look at this marvellosity character... + Show Spoiler + On May 23 2012 22:30 marvellosity wrote: Current Vote Count: hegeo (2): Release, Mordanis Mufaa (2): Miltonkram, hegeo With 9 alive, it's 5 to lynch. Voting ends in 10 hours. Yet to vote: Mufaa, Solstice, sciberbia, O.golden_ne, ShiaoPi. Current FoS Count: Many. I don't really count these obviously. He lurks all day, and then here is his first big post. I don't see what he's contributing, apart from arithmetic skills. I couldn't make a less controversial post if I tired; he makes no effort to help us scumhunt. And then he tries to impress us by making this big list, but what is he actually contributing? Seems scummy. He even ADMITS to not counting FoS's. I may not be the best townie in the world, but at least I keep diligent track of who is FOS'ing whom. Well marvellosity, here is a FoS you better take note of: ##FoS: marvellosity Anyway, in response to milton's post on shiaopi, I agree that his first couple of posts seem scummy. He was initially my top scumread based on those posts. However, I liked his defense to hegeo: he didn't sound scared and wasn't super defensive, but rather stood by what he posted and said he didn't think there was anything wrong with it. I still find his overall play a bit suspicious, as I stated before. I don't think we should lynch someone for being a "dangerous" mafia if they were hypothetically mafia. I think we should just lynch whomever is most likely to be mafia. Every mafia is dangerous. Sorry if I'm wrong milton, but my gut feeling has been for a while now that you are mafia and you've done nothing to really dissuade me. Release asked for votes so here goes: ##Vote: Miltonkram I'd like some more concrete reasons for your vote other than a gut feeling that never got changed. IDK this vote didn't really contribute to the discussion. What you think is important, but why you think it is at least as important. | ||
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Mordanis
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+ Show Spoiler [Hegeo] + Since I left the other night, he's had some activity. First off, let me say something that I find fishy. His primary mode of defence seems to be to let others take care of the accusations toward him. This doesn't seem scummy necessarily, it just seems weird. Overall, he basically has only posted in order to make himself less suspicious. When Release switched to pressuring Milton and I relented for the night, he stopped posting entirely. This is selfish play. Town should not play like this, but it doesn't make him scum. What does concern me is the selfish play after his statements telling us to play more considerately (formatting, the thing where he said that Release was being too aggressive in a gigantic wall of text). I don't understand his play. He says that walls of text are bad unless they are 100% necessary, but he posts a wall of text whose only purpose is to point out that one player had been too aggressive 12 hours before. Since he stopped posting when there was no pressure on him, I'm very suspicious. For one thing, a townie should care about who is lynched beyond that the person who is lynched is not himself. Hegeo doesn't seem to care, going inactive right now. Scum on the other hand, probably don't care who's lynched except that it isn't a scum. Overall, I'd say that Hegeo has become more sketchy in the last few hours. + Show Spoiler [Milton] + Again, we run into some very illogical posting. His main suspicion against ShiaoPi is that Shiao is playing very similarly as him but a bit later. This is suspicious, but so is his play. Anyways, since the last flurry of activity, Milton's main activity has been one large post in which he both defends himself and attacks ShiaoPi. I think his case was weak, but he at least tried to do something helpful. Also, he seems to be a diluted Release, and as I've said earlier, a player who is much better than me said that newbie scum are rarely aggressive, and Milton's posting has been fairly aggressive. Overall, I'd say that Milton is slightly less suspicious than he was earlier, and his posting has improved. He still seems like a decent candidate, but my gut feeling is that he isn't scum. As I've pointed out before though, my gut isn't very reliable, so I would vote for him. + Show Spoiler [ShiaoPi] + Like Milton, Shiao's posting has improved a fair bit. Actually, as Milton himself pointed out, these players are actually very similar to each other so far. For that reason, I highly doubt that both are scum, as that would assume that both scum are incredibly incompetent. Anyways, since yesterday, Shiao did basically the same thing as Milton. For some reason these two just seem to be mirrors of each other. But the only thing is that Shiao is always just a few posts behind Milton. In a newbie game, I wouldn't be entirely surprised if mirroring another player was ScumShiao (shiao if he were scum)'s method of blending in. That however, is complete WIFOM. I'm just thinking aloud with that. My only thought is that if we lynch one of either Milton or Shiao, we should lynch the other next unless we actually get mafia this cycle (which would be pretty much gg, 7town vs. 1scum). | ||
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On May 22 2012 16:25 Miltonkram wrote: Release- I like the way you're starting out this game. If we are going to catch scum we need to be aggressive about it. Don't worry too much about the tone of your posts. sciberbia's post does seem a bit suspicious. He repeats his ideas several times in different ways to make it look like he's putting out more info than he actually is. It seems quite scummy to me. Mordanis- Don't get too offended by aggressive behavior. If mafia doesn't actually think that a little pressure will lead to a lynch, then why should they answer any questions at all? We need to make sure that people are held accountable to what they say. sciberbia- What do you have to say about the accusations pointed at you? There's quite a bit of fluffy information in your post. Let's try to keep the conversation more focused on who might be scum, everything else is secondary. On May 22 2012 18:47 ShiaoPi wrote: Just came back from university. First of all we should definetly go for a lynch, no-lynch is (at least in my opinion) utter nonsense. Regarding Lurkers, I believe that they should be put under suspicion especially in a 9 player setup. I was in the same game as mufaa and lurking screwed us over pretty badly in a 13 player game. I must say I really like release's approach until now, we won't get anything worthwhile from just being nice to each other. Pressuring is a great way to get some more information and should be utilizied. The only slightly suspicious thing until now was sciberbia's long post and his absence since then, but until he responds there is nothing to make of it. + Show Spoiler + On May 23 2012 06:53 Miltonkram wrote: Alright, I've got a case that I think has some merit. s0Lstice Note that I'm not complaining about his suspicions of me. I think his suspicions are actually a good townie move. His statement about accusations and defense is really good too. This first post is consistent with good townie play. However, an hour later, without even waiting for my defense he posts: My point is he should have kept pressuring me. I realize that he misread my post somewhat, but he uses that last line of text to look like he's still pressuring me in some way. I think a townie would leave the FOS on me until I've actually done something to defend myself. Right now it seems like he's trying to apply just enough pressure to appear town, without actually committing to it. That's consistent with scum play in my eyes. ##FOS: s0Lstice On May 23 2012 05:25 ShiaoPi wrote: @hegeo: So you see me as scummy/suspicious? Let's take a look at your reasoning: I'll follow the chronological order of your post. So first off you scrutinize my first post and come to the conclusion that I am just repeating stuff, which has been said by others already. I actually see nothing wrong in joining a discussion that has already started. To me it seemed as they were asking for everyone's opinion, so I gave my opinion. If stating somebody's stance on something is scummy, well cannot help you then. In your 2nd snippet you take a closer look on my suspicions of Mufaa. I really do not think an issue of semantics is scummy. I also do not phrase it as "What others said" I posted "since we all agree..." If you really want to go into semantics please take note that I am using the plural with myself included, so it is just another way of saying since I and others agree on...." Going on to the 3rd excerpt: You state the following: + Show Spoiler + This post is practically without any new content but a defense. You could have said "I had no time/Wanted to see how things go", whatever... But you chose to say "You're not better than me". This seems like only searching for an excuse once other people target you. I was being put under suspicion so I defended myself, sounds pretty reasonable? You can interpret text in many ways, if we assume that I said "had no time/wanted to see how things go", you can also claim that it looks scummy, it really is a matter of interpretation. I see nothing wrong with my defense, firstly I clarified my stance on sciberbia, then I point out a flaw in his 2nd argument. Next snippet is me repsonding to sciberbia regarding my stance on him and as you take it out of context it looks useless. I believe it to have served it's purpose of further clarifying my opinion. Your suspicions regarding the time I came online and the time I posted "something original" are not understandable to me. I am simply not playing as aggressive as Release is and therefore I naturally lack "original" content, as you already pointed out my playstyle might seem as you phrased it: Seems to me like a not too shabby way to play on Day 1. Not much yet you can base reads off and still quite some time to the deadline, whose approach always brings out the more mattering posts (at least in my opinion). I do not see it contradicting with the usage of pressure to gain information, which you seem to see. I pressured sciberbia very lightly, before now focusing on Mufaa, as he strikes me as most scummiest right now. You both post fairly weak semi-accusations (him by posting a weak case, you by posting on an old case) + Show Spoiler + On May 23 2012 08:39 ShiaoPi wrote: @solstice: If you are not buying my explaination I cannot help you. To me your main argument seemed to be me dropping my suspicions on scriberbia, I answered it and went on to attack you, simply because taking filter size as an argument in beforementioned circumstances seems like a feeble attempt to give a random accusation/suspicion more weight. Therefore you are suspicious in my opinion. On another note you have not answered my other question, regarding you tunneling me all the time when your argumentation which you base it on (contribution, filter size) also fits others. Let's take a look at your post: + Show Spoiler + On May 23 2012 00:15 s0Lstice wrote: We lynch day 1, period. Debating about whether or not to lynch only happens if we have no reads to go off of, which to me makes the debate a non-factor.. We've heard from everyone now I believe, solid reads will come with a little time. Can we stop discussion about policy now please? It creates an environment where scum can comfortably post and be 'CREDIT TO TEAM.' Scumhunting must begin now. I'm looking first to sciberbia. I'm not sure if Release reads you as green, but I currently do. More fluff and I'll change my mind though. Your stated purpose was to generate discussion...mission accomplished. I'll be looking for you to make something out of it. ShiaoPi has a small filter as well. You just like that back off your suspicions on sciberbia? Scum post fluffy quasi-useful posts all the time. They want to appear to be contributing without actually saying anything incriminating. Miltonkram confuses me. You say you don't want people to share town reads because it's giving information to the mafia. What? Scum know who is town and who is not. Scumhunting is ALL ABOUT posting your reads on people. They are accused, and must defend. You smell fishy to me Milton. ##FOS: Miltonkram I am one of the several people you call out. As you share them in the thread I would believe it safe to assume that these were (or maybe still are) your main suspects. The one thing that you combined with calling me out was filter size and my opinion on sciberbia. After I explained my stance on sciberbia all you had to work with was filtersize and my reaction. My reaction was explaining my opinion on sciberbia and an attack on you. You continue to ignore my explaination and just go on about my attack on you. Conclusively, you seem to base your pressure on me by randomness of grabbing the name of the first person who did not post much until then and could be an easy way to seemingly contribute. I quote you now: + Show Spoiler + Scum post fluffy quasi-useful posts all the time. They want to appear to be contributing without actually saying anything incriminating. Keep that in mind as I quote your latest post: + Show Spoiler + On May 23 2012 07:59 s0Lstice wrote: ShiaoPi Notice that all I've done is apply pressure. I've never claimed that a small filter is a scum guarantee. Being relatively quiet is plenty of reason to pressure you, just as it is plenty of reason to pressure me. You've responded with gusto, and that's good for everybody, as we have more to go on. I still don't buy your explanation for why you didn't address my accusation. The fact remains that you attacked instead of explained. You wanting to throw the ball my way is fine, but doing so in lieu of a defense to pretty weak pressure (based on filter size, which I agree with you is weak) is scummy. As such I still suspect you. You wonder why I don't focus on him (Mufaa). Everybody is suspicious of him, me saying so serves no purpose. We know already his name will probably come up for lynch tomorrow because lurkers are at best useless and at worst dangerous. This raises the following question: Why do you call out somebody, if you are not convinced by your own argumentation? To me it seems like you are trying to appear town as you try to build a case on somebody. ##FOS: s0lstice You both go after Solstice And after that you both remain each other's biggest opponent. Especially if you look at the general gameplan, you guys do seem quite similar. | ||
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On May 24 2012 07:20 Mordanis wrote: Also, can other people say what they think about Hegeo's lack of activity? Just over 12 hours ago, he said he just woke up, but he only posted once in that time... Am I the only one who sees this as incredibly suspicious when he just became a secondary target? | ||
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Mordanis
United States893 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + On May 22 2012 15:08 Mordanis wrote: First off, let me say that I'm glad for your early FOS. I was trying to think of a way to get the ball rolling and I just couldn't figure out how to do it. Let me try to clear up any confusion now though ^^ The reason I mentioned the last game I played is because it was the only game I've ever played before. To me it seems that referencing my only experience is quite logical. If it doesn't seem logical, I apologize! My reference was only a way for me to explain what I thought and why. The reason that I said that I'm for a lynch today is this: I think that in 99% of cases, a D1 no-lynch only ends badly for the town. There's no real information that is gained, All we really find out is that the player who dies during the night was town. If a vigi shoots during the same night, it really doesn't give us much info either (all we know is who died, and probably only a slightly over 1/4 chance of hitting mafia). However, if we do lynch, then we pressure the mafia to either defend their scumbuddy or let one of their own die. It puts pressure on the mafia, and we have a chance to get out to an early lead. Also, I look at it in a risk/reward way. If we lynch D1, our risks are (1: mislynch). That's basically it. That would put us in a 5vs2 against the mafia. Our reward however, would be (1: information, 2: potential scumlynch). We would have solid input from everyone, from which we could at least begin to unravel who the mafia is, who the town are, and who the lurkers are. On the other hand, if we start without a lynch, we have to stat virtually from the beginning, only we know concretely one person who is (read was) town. As to your concern, I do think that we got lucky in my last game. We lynched one of the lurkers who seemed only somewhat scummy, and he flipped scum. This time, hopefully, we will have begun the hunt for scum early enough that we will have a much better target than last time. My hope is that we will have a good candidate to lynch. If however, we get sidetracked and have no solid reads, I prefer a lynch of the strongest scumread who is also a lurker. That way, if we are wrong, we won't lose a critical part of the team. If only a couple of people are active today and we lynch one, that's sending a clear message that we'll lynch the people who are participating actively. I think its pretty obvious to see where that path leads. That being said, there is not nearly enough activity yet for me to decide whom I would support lynching. As to the questions Sciberia asked: I'd really support a lynch for anyone that could get a majority of the votes. In some weird situation where everyone decided to lynch the best, most logical player, I'd try to get a no-vote. In reality though, I trust my fellow townies to be rational enough to lynch someone who is fairly likely to be scum. + Show Spoiler [written after Release's second FOS] + Also, Release: You're being very aggresive. Very agressive. I understand the need to get the scumhunt going as quickly as possible, but you've placed the only two players who have posted content under suspicion. I think this discourages people from posting content. Artanis, a player whom I trust, wrote that mafia are rarely aggresive. Based on that, I'll trust that you are just trying to get things stirred up. I just think that you're going overboard. We need to get the ball rolling, but we also need people to talk. So please stop with the extreme distrust for a while, and wait for a little while while everyone analyzes what we've just written. Also, I'd be very happy if you would be so kind as to explain to the rest of us why you're being so aggressive. If you really are town, then tell us, and trust us to be rational. If you're not, well you're certainly attracting a lot of attention. And please, everyone, get active. We need a healthy discussion if we are going to lynch scum today. If we have 4 lurkers though, I don't think we'll do very well. Note the spoiler.... Normally I wouldn't post much content between day cycles, but this seemed a little too not-factual. | ||
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Mordanis
United States893 Posts
On May 24 2012 08:29 s0Lstice wrote: He says right in the header that he's been working on this the entire time, and presumably wanted to get it in earlier. I wish he would have dropped a quick note to that effect, but it seems like he was pretty engrossed. But don't you have to copy the code from the thread for this type of thing? This is such a weird situation......... | ||
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Mordanis
United States893 Posts
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Mordanis
United States893 Posts
On May 24 2012 08:37 ShiaoPi wrote: Just finished reading it. Sadly it is too late to get some discussion on that post before lynch. Mordanis your timing is incredibly scary. Especially just that single remark in the entire post stuck you as most important to respond to? Either you are a really fast reader or we just had a knee-jerk from you. Anyway, really waiting for the flip now... I only read a little bit..... And I just explained why. Anyways I'm off to work. Here's hoping for some red!! | ||
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Mordanis
United States893 Posts
+ Show Spoiler [Prologue] + First off, we lynched Hegeo because he was terrible as a townie. Some of the mistakes he made were novice mistakes (such as not refreshing the thread before posting, and not paying attention while everyone slowly formed up to lynch him), but one main point still stands: none of his analysis was breathtaking or deep. His only analysis before this was a few accusatory points towards several players, and since he cannot have been right on all counts I think we can only treat this as analysis done by a confirmed townie. Nothing more. Nothing less. + Show Spoiler [Confusion] + WTF? Probably my main reason for pushing his lynch was that he didn't make sense. And all the while while I try to come up for an explanation of why he has been silent, he's been working up a gigantic case against me and Release. But to do that he must have been looking in the thread to copy and paste. You'd think he would have looked at the new stuff at any point. Or at least not ignore the last 24 hours of the first day cycle. I'm still trying to figure out what the heck he was thinking at any point. I'm certainly not entirely sure how people can react to this without accounting for the fact that the last 14 hours of his play made absolutely no sense. I'm especially sad to see a medic out, but I just can't really understand what he was doing. + Show Spoiler [Emotion] + My first responses to his accusation were influenced by emotion. I cannot tell why, but for some reason Hegeo just seemed to strike a chord in me. It happened earlier, and I posted badly for a while until I cooled down back then. Perhaps this goes with the confusion about his play, I cannot really say. All I can say is that I should be more emotionally stable from now on. That being said, I still stand by the content of my earlier posts (really only that his comment about Release and I staying seperated was a complete falsehood). + Show Spoiler [Point by Point Refutation] + This is as much an exercise in controlling my emotions as anything else. Also, I will only argue with verifiable/falsifiable facts, so it is more of a fact check than a point-by-point refutation. Anyways, here is his post + Show Spoiler + On May 24 2012 08:21 hegeo wrote: What I post now is in contrast to what I stated before, namely that I said I had no strong scumread. Truth is, I have. You will see/saw how I flipped. I apologize for playing bad or not optimal, but all I want is to win. And I win with town, wether I’m dead or alive. Since I’m about to get lynched (or shot at night for that matter if I'm correct), I present to you evidence for a scum team, that seemingly decided to play this game not as lurkers, but the direct opposite. I’m not trying to defend myself here, I accuse. I urge you to reread my posts and all the others I quoted if you really want to go into detail here. It will take more time than you have until deadline. I understand. I worked as quick as I can. The bold/italics for orientation only. There are also important points I couldn't highlight anymore. The beautiful scum duo Release and Mordanis 1. The Start + Show Spoiler + They started the day with a wonderful pas de deux before the thread really started of. Release was the attacking part quickly ##FOSing Mordanis for his first post, also critizising Sciberbia for a question "myself and Mordanis" already answered and calls it “WIFOM” (remember that word please!). Nice. Mordanis then said he was "glad for your early FOS", but told him to be "slightly more trusting" and that he was "very, very" aggressive (also citing a very nice opinion form Artanis: "Artanis, a player whom I trust, wrote that mafia are rarely aggresive. […] So please stop with the extreme distrust for a while, and wait for a little while while everyone analyzes what we've just written." We've written? He also answered very shortly to the question “Sciberia” asked. Sciberia [sic]? But more on that later. Release then answered “I understand your post so for now: unFOS: Mordanis”. Nice and easy. Release asks Mordanis about his opinion on Sciberia’s [sic!] post then, Mordanis replies “he asks us what our stances are on these issues”. Interim findings: So what was established by them for now is that a) agressive/active players aren't scum (I mean, why would they be, they could lurk around which is easier!) so both of them can't be scum, right? b) They were attacking each other (kind of). So they can’t be scumbuddies, right? Why would they do so. c) Everytime it’s “us” or “we”. Aren’t they nice buddies? d) They talk about Sciberia. Not Sciberbia. 2. The Interlude + Show Spoiler + I join the table (and you will all now know my flip) and I find it kind of interesting what I read from them, but couldn’t see through it at that point. I ask Mordanis out about some of his points (just to start my day basically) about “him and Golden” etc. Golden answers me very politely, Sciberbia also joins and we are all (the others more than me I have to admit) talking about each others opinions etc., Solstice focusses Miltonkram etc. ShiaoPI weighs in, good vibes. When Golden calls him out, Release answers with an example from an earlier game (please remember the “earlier game” stuff), while he earlier stated (right in the beginning): “Also, why are you talking about the last game? You should be more concerned with this … This seems more like filler.” I agree with you. Filler here. Release also answers to Mordanis post from earlier, where Mordanis asked “When do you think we need to start panicking?” (Mordanis quickly adds that he means “this question for everyone”. Glad you added this) Release points out that “we need more information”. And answering to solistices post : “people need to post more”. Activity!! Sciberbia calls milton out, I mention releases posts (look at my original post!), also saying that “you have your points that I can agree with and you definitely contribute”. I also added that Mordanis also stated that he (Release) was aggressive earlier (this was merely to be careful not to be called someone who copies stuff from others). At that point, I wanted to clarify why the both of them seemed so close. That was aggressive, yes, but before that I still believed in a strong but maybe accidental coincidence. I hoped to get at least one of them talking. Since I wasn’t sure (and a little excited, my first mafia yeah!), I also critizised ShiaoPi for his posting, others added to this. In the end, I was satisfied with what he said in defense, I had (and have) a strong town read on him and told him that, when suddently… 3. … the enfants terrible entered the room again! + Show Spoiler + Mordanis starts with a red “hegeo”. Uh, uh, I am screwed. He defends himself by accusing me of suspicious posting times (I already made mincemeat of his arguments, now I don't have to repeat them). AND he also defends his best buddy Release (the whole “chastens Release“ stuff), and I make him very angry because I remind him of his post in the beginning (where he said agressiveness could make someone look scummy). He says my analysis is bad. If you think so, Release- but I got what I wanted. Sciberbia asks Mordanis what he thinks about my posts on shiaopi. I assume Mordanis didn’t read them (only the two about himself and his scumbuddy). So he states “I was actually ignoring them on purpose”. Releases’s entrance: A post, direct accusation, nothing else! At that time, I smelled scum. I pointed it out: “Wow, release and mordanis coming back at the same time!“ They didn’t care to answer (after all 40mins between their posts, could have made me look bad here). After seeing how I made them angry, no comment on this?? For your own protection I suppose. Release called me a liar, (he bolded it to make sure everybody sees it!) and said he had no other option than to “##Vote: Hegeo” And then this wonderful gem: He thinks 3 mafia are in this game? (See how he bolded these numbers? Give it a quick glance how much text he has bolded overall. He stated way more important stuff without ever bolding it.) NP, his buddy helps him out, with a smiley, citing the first page of the thread. 3mins (!) after Releases post, this answer is posted. He must have read all of Releases post, searched for the first page etc. I think, if you try to read Releases post directly after he posted it (so basically 15 secs after the post), can you read everything critically to this point AND see his mistake AND care about it more than about his points against me AND go to the frontpage AND quote AND add a little smiley face AND post it? Nice try. Also, NO interaction between those two in thread! No “hello”, I think hegeo is stupid what do you think? They are just silently working together as the tag team they are, trying to keep the pressure up. (Release also says he will post an analysis of my post on ShiaoPi, maybe Mordanis reminded him to do so to make it less obvious…btw Release doesn’t deliver at all in this context) 4. Here comes the heat + Show Spoiler + Sciberbia is active during this period (while I was preparing my answers) to ask the terrible twins about their opinions. He also claims that he didn’t “find [Mordanis points on me] very inciminating”. Time for R&M to act! Sciberia is dangerous, we need to isolate hegeo and make Sciberia stop! (At the same time, ShiaoPi answers to my post. So much to read and write for me!) Lot’s of cross-talk between people now, everybody asking everybody else (starting at May 23 2012 06:11) about opinions etc. I’m still writing. So Mordanis calls “Sciberia” [sic!] out, telling him “this is not a very high level game” and that he should “Compare [his-Mordanis] post to Hegeo's accusation of ShiaoPi.” Do you really want people to do so, Mordanis? Sciberbia refuses to take a hit for being called “passive-aggressive”, manning up. Asking others on opinions about me. And why shouldn’t he? Mordanis is fluffing around, no quality posts whatsoever. When Sciberbia doesn’t stop, Mordanis cites one of his older games as reason (quoting ShiaoPis post on me only being weird but most likely not scum): “Perhaps I am biased, but in my last game I read one player as an illogical townie, and he turned out to be mafia. This was embarrasing, but I read part of the scum QT, and all of the scum laughed at me for that read.” Funny. Your point? – We come back to that later. But wait - didn’t Release mention earlier that he didn’t like people talk about older games and critizised Mordanis for it,.. but wait, didn’t he himself talk about them as a basis of how to play? Still no cross-talk (reread the timeframe I mention! Compare what others do!) between R&M. I answer to Mordanis (I worked hard to show his lack of content etc and structured it the best I could, reread it), later also to ShiaoPi. Note that Shiao has a fairly logical stand towards me, he is not angry although I really may have sounded mean to him. Mordanis comment on my post: “Wow, so much anger. …I am actually a bit angry about Hegeo's response and the game in general, so I'm gonna take a bit of time off before coming back. “ So he goes away for a… no wait! He posts 5 minutes later that “On second thought, that was not as angry as I thought. Still, its time to take a breather.” Then he goes. Had to talk to Release I suppose, sadly not in our thread. Let me remind you again, they are freaking angry at me (well, I don’t really think they are, but not to shabby acting there). Wait… did you say “they are angry”? We only see Mordanis’s post…Well: Release joins the table (departure angry Mordanis, entrance angry Release again-May 23 2012 07:59) and gets insta-mad at Sciberbia and does his “##FOS: Sciberia”-Stuff. Oh, quite funny, “Sciberia” again. Why can’t the both of you (and ONLY the both of you) write his name correctly? Like in “NEVER EVER” (Well, release writes “Sciberbia” once in the beginning. Mordanis even before game start omits the “b”. Quite the influence Mordanis has on you Release, no?) He calls Sciberbias post “WIFOM”. Where have we read this term the last time… let me see…ahh yes, Mordanis said it to me. And Release earlier to Sciberbia in the beginning. (Later on, Sciberbia will cite this term only to defend himself when called on WIFOMing, no one else uses it) And the best part of his post: “Still, hegeo seemed much worse about his response to my post than you are to mordanis.”?? - Well did I mention they kind of care for each other? While Mordanis states earlier that “Also, I think that we should stop defending for other people.”( May 23 2012 07:01) Mordanis never calls Release out on that, nor does he thank him for his help. No comment. Ever. No exchange of reads. Nothing. 6. So, I mean you should get my point by now, but I will procede... + Show Spoiler + To remind you where we stand: Two “angry” scumbuddies try to suffocate everybody else, taking turns on targeting the more active/aggressive players towards them (well, one is only lurking right now, but the other one fights for two). Release gets mad at me not posting (while I said I would need time, and I answered to Mordanis and ShiaoPi in the meantime with pretty long posts. Remember, this is not my mother tongue, I need time to write stuff) He repeats “The longer you wait to respond to my post the more scummy you appear. Respond soon if not now!” which reminds me of his earlier “be warned”. Uh oh. Why don’t you ask Mordanis about his reads on people in the meantime, or at least commiserate in this thread with your angry buddy? I mean, my passive-aggressiveness made him so angry, why don’t you say a word when he gets out because he needs to calm down? Oh wait, you do. Kind of. You attack me again for what you state “misquoting” Mordanis words on you in the beginning (May I post out, that you at that point seem to have read my post from 80mins ago): ”But again you take Mordanis's quote (like you did with mine) way out of context. Mordanis said that at the start after my double FOS very early in the game. I changed, he acknowledged, but you are trying to create an illusion that this hasn't happened. (May 23 2012 08:31)” You changed? Right before that, in that very post, you ask me “Wtf is this shit?” I can find scumminess in virtually every post that you've made so far. Oh wait, this is what you said about me. So I have to quote it: “I can find scumminess in virtually every post that you've made so far.” Sorry. And he repeats himself again on that I have to post now or I am scum. Release, you seemed pretty convinced I was scum (fellow townies, you see how I flip(ed)- don’t know when you read it), you didn’t give me ANY benefit of the doubt. I granted it to you, ShiaoPi and Mordanis (again, reread my posts). You saw me as an easy target. And I was. Then I post my answer to Release (while he attacks sciberbia again, mentioning “WIFOM”). I wont elaborate on that. Read what I said. In his “answer", this sentence here is nice btw: Quoting my post (“It seems as though you either just want to stir up anything you can…” [read original for full context) he answers “That bolded part is the most ridiculous crap I've ever heard.” Here I just rephrased your buddy btw: He said (May 22 2012 15:08) “I’ll trust that you are just trying to get things stirred up.” And at last, your standard ceterum censeo: “this is WIFOM territory”. Townies, reread his posts. That brings us to the “end” of this action packed night. 7. The aftermath + Show Spoiler + Two angry scummies. And just to remind everybody that I am a threat to town, I will quote Release: “Since we are closing in on the Night post, we have a few things to decide: Which case is more important: The Solstice/ShiaoPi/Milton or the Hegeo case?” And one sentence later: “After Hegeo's lynch, you two are going to come under increasing pressure…” Or to paraphrase your intentions: Hey all, we need to kill him. He is a threat to…well, at least me and Mordanis. You know how I flipped. You know who never EVER questioned wether he was right in my case (not before I was No.1 lynch target). I started my day voting for Mufaa (Milton did it earlier without comments by our scummies, I did it just to see wether my scummy friends are still awake). And look who’s coming at me again! Release: “i think we can all agree that Hegeo is begging to get lynched.” “place a vote on Hegeo.” (he also notes: Funny: You wake up when i go to sleep.” – I posted at 7:50AM of my time after rereading parts of the thread. I went to bed 2AMish. A classical 0 content post) See how safe he felt! He calls me scummy for voting Mufaa (I mean, come on, at least I didn’t do this “FOS her FOS there, FOS everywhere stuff”. Even marv is laughing about it.) And… Entrance Mordanis again, being apologetic for getting angry… whatever (Mordanis, if you’re serious and /outofgame here, I appreciate it). But then, you have to mention your best buddy again: “And finally, I think that Release has pretty much posted a refutation of your rebuttal.” Before your closing remarks on my emotions (how poetic, “on emotion”), I will quote them in full length: “Hegeo's play seems to be ruled by emotion. This is exactly why I waited until I could be rational and logical before posting. I may have overestimated the amount of anger in this post, but I still believe there is a fair amount. Whether this leads to him being scummy or not is hard to say, but the atmosphere of emotion may have contributed to the lack of posting in the previous hours.” To quote you on that topic when answering ShiaoPi (May 23 2012 07:01) “...,my pride is seeking revenge for the scum disguised as illogical townie.” Your pride and revenge? As in emotionally motivated? And finally, “I'm nervous about not lynching because people are afraid to jump on a bandwagon so early, so I'll vote now. I will however vote for whomever we can muster a majority for. ##Vote: hegeo” What I would like you to do + Show Spoiler + Fellow townies. I worked on my case instead of being in thread the last hours (sorry for that, but if I die today defending myself against scum and you, the evidence I have gets lost). Sorry for not contributing today. As you may see from this, my reads on other people are not anti-town at least, mostly green. (Well Mufaa…) You see/saw how I flipped. I admit I could have played better. But after understanding, that I didn’t only hit one but the two scumbuddies at the same time (that also chose a very aggressive stance in this game), the game was basically already over for me, when I don’t get lynched I’ll die quickly afterwards though. I tried to make my points as you can see, there are also numerous smaller things that could be a coincidence once, but 30 coincidences? Really? I tried to find them for anybody else, drew a network diagram who interacted etc. Do it and you see what I see (if you are not convinced). I hope you consider lynching at least one of them on D2. They will try to tell you that there was “so much evidence” and what not, that I was aggressive, that they realized that there were other cases also later on and were to focussed on me because I called them out, how could they have known that, they will try to prove to you that they are town yadayada. They started putting votes on me. They only interacted in thread when universalities were discussed in the beginning and pressured each other in the beginning with a slight tickle. Contradictions en masse. Tag-teaming. Wording. Feelings. Pressuring. Pushing cases no matter what, agressively. See how they pushed their case. Their ONLY case (until it was sure I would be killed) Look at what I wrote. Reread it. It cost me many hours. If one of them flips scum, kill the other. Question their intentions towards each other, ask them to point out what the other did wrong. Force errors. Make them sweat. Look at how they behave in the near future.Don't let them pick on single points. Dear Mordanis and Release Hopefully, I can read your QT in a while. If you are just two townies, I nominated you for best tag-team ever, you get on like a house on fire. It’s so obvious I doubted my read in the beginning. Disclaimer: I never was really angry or whatever towards anybody, I merely wanted to state that. It’s a game. I hope my read is correct, and that you understand why I had to work on that case rather than having futile discussions (imo) in thread In his first section, he says that we were a dance for two in the beginning. Did he completely ignore the fact that Sciberbia was just as involved as Release and I (I actually greatly prefer the sound of "sciberia" in my head to "sciberbia", so if its ok with you I'll just go with that from now on)? Also, his only real suspicion derived from the opening sequence is that Release and I were the first active participants. In the second section, he doesn't really post any suspicious behavior. He only implies that our play is similar. Again, there is no evidence. There really isn't anything to talk about. In the third section (I laughed when I saw him mock my use of the red to accuse him when he accused me), comes the real meat of his argument. He believes that Release and I are scum because ...... we both accused him of scummy behavior. And then he states that thing about us not interacting. I also didn't interact with Mufaa, or Sciberia, or Milton when I posted my case on him. I see no reason to, its an appeal to emotion that doesn't help anything. As another example, try to find an instance of the people who were working on a case against Milton (or to a lesser extent ShiaoPi) directly talking to each other. I don't get what that is supposed to mean x.x The fourth section is quite possibly the strangest logic I've ever read. Again, he tries to draw attention to how we act similarly by misspelling Sciberia's name and referencing old games. The step from similar play to scum-buddies is what I just can't get though. It seems to go back to the main- that Release and I were the first to vote for him. Also this made me literally laugh out loud (Well, release writes “Sciberbia” once in the beginning. Mordanis even before game start omits the “b”. Quite the influence Mordanis has on you Release, no?) Also we did exchange reads, namely our biggest (and in looking through the thread again, I am even more sure of this) the most logical scum-read.The "fifth" section sees little improvement in logic. The only things that could be construed as facts in this section are his claim that Hegeo had correctly understood one of my earlier posts and did not take it out of context. He says that I flip-flopped in regards to my view of aggressiveness. It just ain't so! The first line of the post Hegeo talks about is this : First off, let me say that I'm glad for your early FOS. I was trying to think of a way to get the ball rolling and I just couldn't figure out how to do it. Let me try to clear up any confusion now though ^^ . I think its quite obvious that I approved of his early game aggression to begin with, but that I think he went overboard when (in the same post) I later wrote Also, Release: You're being very aggresive. Very agressive. I understand the need to get the scumhunt going as quickly as possible, but you've placed the only two players who have posted content under suspicion. I think this discourages people from posting content. Artanis, a player whom I trust, wrote that mafia are rarely aggresive. Based on that, I'll trust that you are just trying to get things stirred up. I just think that you're going overboard. We need to get the ball rolling, but we also need people to talk. So please stop with the extreme distrust for a while, and wait for a little while while everyone analyzes what we've just written. Also, I'd be very happy if you would be so kind as to explain to the rest of us why you're being so aggressive. If you really are town, then tell us, and trust us to be rational. If you're not, well you're certainly attracting a lot of attention. .In the "seventh" section, he catches my weakness. I did allow emotion to rule my play. He correctly spots that I let my pride and need for the feeling of righteous vengeance to cloud my judgement on him. This was a mistake. I will do my best to learn from it and grow. And the "8th" section (If you read this, hegeo, I'm only doing quotations in remembrance of your insistance that Release and I are scum-buddies because we both spelled Sciberia's name wrong), is just him trying to manipulate the town after his death. + Show Spoiler [Subjective Reaction To Hegeo's P…] + Hegeo's conclusion is obviously that Release and I are both scum. Here I try to find out how he came to that conclusion. He seemed to put a great store of importance in the fact that Release and I were fairly similar (in spellings, references to previous games, and aggression/activity). Again, I'm really trying to find out any link between the two, but I just can't. Milton and ShiaoPi have been playing similarly as well, but he didn't see them as scum. So what was the difference between them and Release and me? The only thing that I can think of is that we accused him. I agree that it is suspicious to be the first to accuse someone who flips town, but this is a risk that must be taken for town. If I were one of only two mafia, there's no way in hell I'd risk one, let alone both mafia get caught on D1. Overall, I see no reason to see the similarities between Release and me as damning proof that we are the entire contingency of scum for the entire game. Frankly, I am a bit worried that after just a cursory read people were beginning to believe what Hegeo was saying. We really need to improve our analysis as a town if this is seen as solid. + Show Spoiler [Final Thoughts] + Ok, so I know that with my previous knee-jerk reactions to this post I do seem pretty suspicious. All I ask is that you reread his post and his actions with a fresh mind. Ask yourself if my actions prior to his lynch were suspect or not. Ask yourself if you believe that Hegeo found both scum singlehandedly while letting himself die. Ask if you think my reaction was really that suspicious, in light of a history of Hegeo getting on my nerves. This was a really weird situation, but I don't think it really changes much about what we know, except knowing that one of the townies was really not a very good townie. | ||
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Mordanis
United States893 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + On May 23 2012 04:05 Mordanis wrote: First off, let me clarify my earlier statement to Release. He was being too frightening, and discouraging posting, so I told him to be slightly more trusting. Since his two FOSs, we've regressed to a community of trust. The way people have been talking, there just seems to be no urgency. I feel slightly responsible for this, so I'll do my best to mend the situation. Hegeo has been very suspicious. To restate what I've already said, he did not post in the first 5 hours (in and of itself harmless), but then posted 5 minutes after someone called him out for not posting. He offered an excuse, but the most obvious explanation is that he was watching the thread, and had a knee-jerk reaction to being called out. To believe he began writing before he was called out, and posted after a few minutes is, frankly, well, let's just say its not a very high order of probability. The next question is why he would watch the thread without posting. I can think of no reason a Townie would do this. Then he posts this + Show Spoiler + On May 22 2012 19:54 hegeo wrote: Do you know more than the rest of us? Why couldn't Golden be mafia (and you)? I kind of agree on the fact that activity creates information, but walls of text (I take it you exaggerated to make your point) don't help automatically. But this was already said earlier, so I wont elaborate on that. Admittedly, it is. But if I really wanted to defend myself at that time (against what I might add?), I would have mentioned the post. Truth is I read Miltonkram's post after I posted mine, from now on I will always refresh the thread before I post then. Then he posts this gem: + Show Spoiler + On May 23 2012 01:29 hegeo wrote: Sciberbia bringing the heat via analysis, I like it. Hey Release, some thoughts about your posts, and why I think you're not always helping town with them: a) Even though I understand where you're coming from, this is kind of pseudo-pressuring people, which is futile in the beginning of the game. This makes for an anti-town-atmosphere, since posting should be encouraged. b) It's not the best case to lynch lurkers, but if they don't contribute to town then it is at least good riddance. c) You are posting at least a considerable amount of non-productive posts right now, e.g. to this post... ... your answer was this: You consistently do this "#FOS"-stuff and then, you FOS Sciberibia... ..before even un##FOSing Mordanis: To answer in your own words: Even though there are many players that have a way shorter filter than you, what you do is generating "noise" (not always, you have your points that I can agree with and you definitely contribute). It seems as though you either just want to stir up anything you can (because both of these #FOSes came to nothing, which would make you a little scummy) or I read it as an overly motivated try to get information. On May 23 2012 01:35 hegeo wrote: EBWOP: I forgot to say that I added the a),b) etc in italics and Mordanis already said that this kind of aggressiveness is not helping + Show Spoiler + (I was merely rephrasing this and putting it into my context). I'm very willing to change my mind, as we aren't even halfway through the first day. That being said, we need to have more and better analysis if we're going to find scum. I think it is wrong to assume that everyone is innocent just as it is wrong to assume everyone is innocent. We need to cultivate a healthy distrust of everyone, but at the same time we need to be able to work together to hunt scum. We need balance. We began too distrustful, we are now too trusting. We must find a middle ground to be successful. + Show Spoiler + On May 23 2012 04:45 Release wrote: Response to a) my point was that contributing useless information is worse than having no contribution at all. My example was Sciberia's asking the same question twice, which has since, been given some clarification. b) Lynching a lurker is not "good riddance". I don't see why a townie should feel that way. Lynching a lurker (if there are more than one) is random to a townie, but clear to the mafia. The mafia will obviously choose the lurker whom is a townie, therefore causing us to mislynch. Advocating a lurker lynch instead of focusing on those who are suspicious is a Mafia's way of thinking. In fact, you don't even list some alternative, despite it not being a best case scenario. c)my answer was this: "My point is that Townies can make mistakes, but townies don't make slips. Mafia make can make mistakes; usually their mistake is to make a slip. I want to make that very clear. We shouldn't end up lynching for a mistake. We should lynch someone who makes a slip." From Newbie II game + Show Spoiler + Probulous got a AKCT lynched. That was a mistake. He was clearly contributing so even though he made a mistake, he shouldn't get lynched. (he didn't) Sheth however, does slip in trying to save his scumbuddy and got lynched for that. this was in support of the above point i made. Your c) and reasoning behind are Blatant Lies; you intentionally leave out my actual point to make it seem like i am posting filler. If i didn't know better, you know that i am town, and see that i am dangerous to your scum motives. You are targeting me with a weak case based on incomplete evidence. In regard to the FOS before unFOS, i did it to show that i was putting both of them under suspicion. There are 3 mafia. I only had 2. Are you seriously trying to convince to to avoid the larger picture and completely ignore anyone (other than the person who i am targeting at the moment) who might be Mafia? The FOS's got people talking. Talking is good for the town. Again, this is an example of where you completely ignore the larger picture. "overly motivated try to get information." All townies want information. After all, we don't know much. You however, seem perfectly content to let this day slip by without extracting a lot of information from it (presumably because you already have the information because you are scum). I see no other option as of yet (or until you reply) but to: ##Vote: Hegeo You'll not that I posted my case on him before Release. How do you reconcile this with your statement that I was "perfectly content to follow you"? | ||
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Mordanis
United States893 Posts
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Mordanis
United States893 Posts
+ Show Spoiler [Full thread 1st read] + As has already been talked about for ages, the thread begins with Release going batshit crazy. He puts FOSs on the only people who say anything of substance (Solstice begins with the typical "Liquidia! down w/ mafia", which Release ignores). It is during this time that Mufaa makes his first and only post. + Show Spoiler + On May 22 2012 09:25 Mufaa wrote: I was Mafia in XIII and the amount of lurkers in a 12 person game ruined it. We won after a misread by the vig n3 because 2 of the mafia lurked all 3 days and so did 2 townies and he guessed wrong. If we want to find the scum we need as much content out of everyone as possible. More content means more room for mafia mistakes while townies can't make a mistake if they're being honest. In the next section, we get some activity from Milton and Hegeo to kick things off. I respond to the topics from the last section, and then Golden and ShiaoPi come in. Milton, Golden and ShiaoPi take pretty safe stances:+ Show Spoiler + On May 22 2012 16:02 Miltonkram wrote: Hey all, just got in from work. I'll wait on pressuring people to see who is a lurker or inactive, but I'm hoping that won't be a big issue. People who still haven't posted since the Day 1 post: -Golden -hegeo -ShiaoPi I'd really like these three players to check in at the very least, if not start to put some information out there. On May 22 2012 16:25 Miltonkram wrote: Release- I like the way you're starting out this game. If we are going to catch scum we need to be aggressive about it. Don't worry too much about the tone of your posts. sciberbia's post does seem a bit suspicious. He repeats his ideas several times in different ways to make it look like he's putting out more info than he actually is. It seems quite scummy to me. Mordanis- Don't get too offended by aggressive behavior. If mafia doesn't actually think that a little pressure will lead to a lynch, then why should they answer any questions at all? We need to make sure that people are held accountable to what they say. sciberbia- What do you have to say about the accusations pointed at you? There's quite a bit of fluffy information in your post. Let's try to keep the conversation more focused on who might be scum, everything else is secondary. First post: ezpz way to come off as pro town without any effort or risk. He just lists the players who haven't done anything yet. Could be scummy, could be lazy, could be paranoid. Second post: Same type of play as the first post. He repeats what others have said, but nothing that would be immediately risky. My evaluation of these posts is that he starts off as either incompetent/lazy town or mafia. Definitely worth more looking into. + Show Spoiler + On May 22 2012 18:06 O.Golden_ne wrote: Good evening all, Well i've been following everything today via iPhone at work, but i'll be most active in the evenings. Such as now! Okay to start things off, Release has taken a very aggressive stance. This seems standard, someone always needs to shake things up. That being said, it was fairly amusing watching him post #FOS at anyone posting. I had a LOL at my desk. While it is good to shake things up, which he is doing. I do feel like he sort of shut down several good points that both Mordanis and Sciberbia have made, and is picking on some very minor problems with their posts that would be expected so early in the game. Please dont focus on the semantics so much Release. + Show Spoiler + A better word for "mistake" in this context is "slip", and i advise people to use slip in the future because it more accurately denotes what a bad mafia would do. I think take a bit to absorb what everyone is saying. Please remember that there are 7 of us Town and while discouraging fluff is essential in dissecting the mafia from the pack you need to keep in mind that the majority of us are town and we WANT to promote discussion. Pointing the finger at everyone that talks, for semantics OR their opinions is perhaps not the best way to encourage people to engage in a profitable discussion. To add my 2 cents on the DayOneLynch (D1L) I agree with hegeo, Release and Mordanis. It is my opinion that on day one we need to lynch someone, it provides a lot of information and in the optimum situation we can get lucky and hit a mafia. I'd rather mislynch one of our own, then wait a day and one of us get sniped. Ending up in a similar circumstance to the start of D1 just minus a player. Ugh. Also, i consider lurkers to be quite scummy. So unless a lurker posts some seriously good content every day, they will be under some scrutiny from myself. @Miltonkram, what is your on opinion on hegeo's statement: On May 22 2012 20:45 O.Golden_ne wrote: @Miltonkram. good point. this early in the game it IS unlikely anyone will have a solid town or mafia read. I think it's crucial everyone establishes a list of who they suspect to be town and mafia. However, it might be wise to only publicly question, accuse and point suspicions once you've got several points of reasoning. As i don't want people to have to be defending themselves against 'scummy' accusations due to poor semantics and one-off poor wording. I think people's overall playstyle is a much greater indicator of their allegiance then a one-off slip (or mistake). Obviously other's may have a much more reactive play style where they will prefer to isolate single remarks. Though i want to take a look at a larger picture before casting my votes. Note that if other peoples reads on single-posts match with my overall read of a player i'll pay it attention. (and if someone makes some high level analysis of a post) TL;DR 1. Unlikely to have solid town/mafia reads this early. 2. Keep a personal list of reads. 3. Only post accusations when you've got some good reasoning rather than pointing the finger willy-nilly. 4. IMO. A players overall style should have a more considerable weighting than a one off post. I will vote accordingly unless there is a good analysis of why a players post may be a scum-slip. My intention for this post is to try add a little structure, so that when deadlines start looming we're not left flailing in the deep. Also, just reading Hegeo's recent posts. I didn't even notice Mordanis's comment about me. He was in my first (and last) game and i enjoyed his play style as he was fairly active. I however was not, and had to pull out of that game due to personal reasons. I plan on being quite active and want to keep my posting fairly succinct, my posts in the previous game became large walls of texts and i want to avoid this. So i have and will be including TL:DR's wherever applicable. Let me exactly communicate what Golden's first post was in 3 short sentences. Release should stop posting FOSs on every post with content. We should lynch D1. Lurkers are suspicious. Why would you post such a massive post to communicate this little information? It would have been confusing and weird to have posted it in as few words as I did, but maybe a short paragraph each would have sufficed. And he broaches no new ground. His second post features a handy dandy summarization. Of his four topics, one was already mentioned by Milton, the second was a derivative of the first, the third was basically "Release needs to cool down", which had already been mentioned several times, and the fourth was actually a decent argument. The fourth point is, however, of questionable value to town. If individual posts are not important, what is? Subjective feelings? To me this seems fairly suspicious. Golden did almost exactly what Milton did, he just wrote more words. And the whole town didn't see it. Hell, the mafia didn't even see it. I think that Golden deserves a fair amount of suspicion based on these posts. + Show Spoiler + On May 22 2012 18:47 ShiaoPi wrote: Just came back from university. First of all we should definetly go for a lynch, no-lynch is (at least in my opinion) utter nonsense. Regarding Lurkers, I believe that they should be put under suspicion especially in a 9 player setup. I was in the same game as mufaa and lurking screwed us over pretty badly in a 13 player game. I must say I really like release's approach until now, we won't get anything worthwhile from just being nice to each other. Pressuring is a great way to get some more information and should be utilizied. The only slightly suspicious thing until now was sciberbia's long post and his absence since then, but until he responds there is nothing to make of it. On May 22 2012 23:22 ShiaoPi wrote: Maybe I should have rephrased my post on the suspicions towards you Sciberbia: I was not that much concerned about your absence but just on the amount of seemingly "useless" things within the post. Don't see anything wrong with your elaborations on it now. On May 23 2012 00:21 ShiaoPi wrote: If you reread my first post on sciberbia I would have assumed that it was easily visible that I had a bit of concern regarding him but not really a suspicion. Regarding my small filter, yes I did not post much until now, but how come that you with the exact same amount of posts (since the daypost) can claim that my filter is small. This strikes me as odd. Why complain about my filter if yours is not that much as well? Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. More of the same. As already pointed out, he just follows the same "safe" opening as Milton and Golden. Not much else to say. It seems suspicious that one player would try to do this shit, but 3 players did it at the exact same time. I'm sorry, but this is just embarrasing for us as a town. Release did a good job to get the thread moving, and 4 hours later these 3 have mired the conversation in repetitions of repetitions of repetitions. Come on guys. (Note: after this point I took a sleeping break) + Show Spoiler + At this point Solstice makes his return. he posts this + Show Spoiler + On May 23 2012 00:15 s0Lstice wrote: We lynch day 1, period. Debating about whether or not to lynch only happens if we have no reads to go off of, which to me makes the debate a non-factor.. We've heard from everyone now I believe, solid reads will come with a little time. Can we stop discussion about policy now please? It creates an environment where scum can comfortably post and be 'CREDIT TO TEAM.' Scumhunting must begin now. I'm looking first to sciberbia. I'm not sure if Release reads you as green, but I currently do. More fluff and I'll change my mind though. Your stated purpose was to generate discussion...mission accomplished. I'll be looking for you to make something out of it. ShiaoPi has a small filter as well. You just like that back off your suspicions on sciberbia? Scum post fluffy quasi-useful posts all the time. They want to appear to be contributing without actually saying anything incriminating. Miltonkram confuses me. You say you don't want people to share town reads because it's giving information to the mafia. What? Scum know who is town and who is not. Scumhunting is ALL ABOUT posting your reads on people. They are accused, and must defend. You smell fishy to me Milton. ##FOS: Miltonkram On May 22 2012 08:41 s0Lstice wrote: WE MUST PROTECT THIS HOUSE Be on notice mafia members, I will defend our town's honor to the last. Anyway, just wanted to say hi before bed. I'll be back in the wee hours of the morning, checking this thread when I should be working. + Show Spoiler + People agree with each other, and at this point there is no real pressure on anyone. Release has calmed down, and the hunt has regressed into a sort of lackadaisical mockery of effort. Everyone plays the game of "(I need to 'hunt scum' so people won't be suspicious of me) Uhh, I think people need to be more active and I'm especially concerned about X. Would X please defend himself" At which point everyone agrees that X isn't very suspicious. Finally someone puts out a weak case + Show Spoiler + On May 23 2012 01:01 sciberbia wrote: However, MILTON is currently one of my top two scumreads based on his posts: Here is his first post. In his first post, all he basically does is pressure other people to post and also say nothing. He also expresses disdain for lurkers/inactives, which is about the least controversial thing he could do. Seems a bit scummy. In his second post, he first tries to compliment the most active player at the time. He also tries to support the accusation against me, basically just repeating what Release said. In this post, he continues to try to build suspicion against me, but he just says my post was "a bit suspect". Aside from the fact that before he said he seemed "quite scummy to him", he tries to not take too harsh a stance. Also, his statement to golden is bascially just a rehash of what hegeo said earlier and isn't too controversial. IN SUMMARY: I think milton is scummy: - he hasn't posted a ton but enough not to be lurky - he tried to pile supsicion on me but was wishy/washy about it - he isn't sticking his neck out on anything + Show Spoiler + The 6th page starts out with Hegeo noticing that ShiaoPi is posting repetitions, missing (IMO) Milton and Golden (at this point Mufaa has disappeared, so he is more of a lurker than a repeater). One thing that he misses, however, is the fact that ShiaoPi has actively tried to stop the scumhunt. With only a weak amount of suspicion on Milton making up the entire fruits of the hunt to this point, ShiaoPi posts this + Show Spoiler + On May 23 2012 03:00 ShiaoPi wrote: @Sciberbia: The main thing about your suspicions on Milton is that nothing of the tidbits you gathered really struck me as: "well that's scummy" Since it is Day1 pretty much everyone's postcount is relatively low (although Mufaa really stands out here), your second argument on piling suspicion on you, while being wishy washy about it seems like a typical day 1 accusation/FOS to me. There simply is not enough material for solid cases against others. I believe solid ones will only appear well into the 2nd half of day 1 when there is more information. Not sticking someone's neck out is in my opinion understandable. Although it may be a scum trait it could also be a blue role. In terms of getting people's attention, nobody besides you, has really done something to get everyone on it. So in regards to that everyone would be suspicious. All in all I think that your case is just not "solid" enough without further information. Let's just wait for Milton's response, as that is something that will give us more info. + Show Spoiler + The next post with content is mine. This is where I first accuse Hegeo. I feel it would be unfair to everyone to post my own thoughts at the time, so I will analyze it as objectively as possible. If you want my personal thoughts, just ask me and I'll be more than happy to share. I write + Show Spoiler + On May 23 2012 04:05 Mordanis wrote: First off, let me clarify my earlier statement to Release. He was being too frightening, and discouraging posting, so I told him to be slightly more trusting. Since his two FOSs, we've regressed to a community of trust. The way people have been talking, there just seems to be no urgency. I feel slightly responsible for this, so I'll do my best to mend the situation. Hegeo has been very suspicious. To restate what I've already said, he did not post in the first 5 hours (in and of itself harmless), but then posted 5 minutes after someone called him out for not posting. He offered an excuse, but the most obvious explanation is that he was watching the thread, and had a knee-jerk reaction to being called out. To believe he began writing before he was called out, and posted after a few minutes is, frankly, well, let's just say its not a very high order of probability. The next question is why he would watch the thread without posting. I can think of no reason a Townie would do this. Then he posts this + Show Spoiler + On May 22 2012 19:54 hegeo wrote: Do you know more than the rest of us? Why couldn't Golden be mafia (and you)? I kind of agree on the fact that activity creates information, but walls of text (I take it you exaggerated to make your point) don't help automatically. But this was already said earlier, so I wont elaborate on that. Admittedly, it is. But if I really wanted to defend myself at that time (against what I might add?), I would have mentioned the post. Truth is I read Miltonkram's post after I posted mine, from now on I will always refresh the thread before I post then. Then he posts this gem: + Show Spoiler + On May 23 2012 01:29 hegeo wrote: Sciberbia bringing the heat via analysis, I like it. Hey Release, some thoughts about your posts, and why I think you're not always helping town with them: a) Even though I understand where you're coming from, this is kind of pseudo-pressuring people, which is futile in the beginning of the game. This makes for an anti-town-atmosphere, since posting should be encouraged. b) It's not the best case to lynch lurkers, but if they don't contribute to town then it is at least good riddance. c) You are posting at least a considerable amount of non-productive posts right now, e.g. to this post... ... your answer was this: You consistently do this "#FOS"-stuff and then, you FOS Sciberibia... ..before even un##FOSing Mordanis: To answer in your own words: Even though there are many players that have a way shorter filter than you, what you do is generating "noise" (not always, you have your points that I can agree with and you definitely contribute). It seems as though you either just want to stir up anything you can (because both of these #FOSes came to nothing, which would make you a little scummy) or I read it as an overly motivated try to get information. On May 23 2012 01:35 hegeo wrote: EBWOP: I forgot to say that I added the a),b) etc in italics and Mordanis already said that this kind of aggressiveness is not helping + Show Spoiler + (I was merely rephrasing this and putting it into my context). I'm very willing to change my mind, as we aren't even halfway through the first day. That being said, we need to have more and better analysis if we're going to find scum. I think it is wrong to assume that everyone is innocent just as it is wrong to assume everyone is innocent. We need to cultivate a healthy distrust of everyone, but at the same time we need to be able to work together to hunt scum. We need balance. We began too distrustful, we are now too trusting. We must find a middle ground to be successful. + Show Spoiler + The next post is Release's first accusation of Hegeo. He writes + Show Spoiler + On May 23 2012 04:45 Release wrote: Response to a) my point was that contributing useless information is worse than having no contribution at all. My example was Sciberia's asking the same question twice, which has since, been given some clarification. b) Lynching a lurker is not "good riddance". I don't see why a townie should feel that way. Lynching a lurker (if there are more than one) is random to a townie, but clear to the mafia. The mafia will obviously choose the lurker whom is a townie, therefore causing us to mislynch. Advocating a lurker lynch instead of focusing on those who are suspicious is a Mafia's way of thinking. In fact, you don't even list some alternative, despite it not being a best case scenario. c)my answer was this: "My point is that Townies can make mistakes, but townies don't make slips. Mafia make can make mistakes; usually their mistake is to make a slip. I want to make that very clear. We shouldn't end up lynching for a mistake. We should lynch someone who makes a slip." From Newbie II game + Show Spoiler + Probulous got a AKCT lynched. That was a mistake. He was clearly contributing so even though he made a mistake, he shouldn't get lynched. (he didn't) Sheth however, does slip in trying to save his scumbuddy and got lynched for that. this was in support of the above point i made. Your c) and reasoning behind are Blatant Lies; you intentionally leave out my actual point to make it seem like i am posting filler. If i didn't know better, you know that i am town, and see that i am dangerous to your scum motives. You are targeting me with a weak case based on incomplete evidence. In regard to the FOS before unFOS, i did it to show that i was putting both of them under suspicion. There are 3 mafia. I only had 2. Are you seriously trying to convince to to avoid the larger picture and completely ignore anyone (other than the person who i am targeting at the moment) who might be Mafia? The FOS's got people talking. Talking is good for the town. Again, this is an example of where you completely ignore the larger picture. "overly motivated try to get information." All townies want information. After all, we don't know much. You however, seem perfectly content to let this day slip by without extracting a lot of information from it (presumably because you already have the information because you are scum). I see no other option as of yet (or until you reply) but to: ##Vote: Hegeo . My main problem with this post is when Release talks about blatant lies and that paragraph in general. This is the very essence of WIFOM. Unless I missed something, Hegeo never really accused Release of scumminess, just of bad town play. Release responds by saying that Hegeo is scum and afraid of the agressiveness? I don't understand where that came from. It is as if Release is afraid of any suspicion cast against him. Why would he respond with this paragraph? Because of that small paragraph, I'd rate this post as just slightly suspicious. + Show Spoiler + After this we all bicker a bit about the various active cases (Milton, Shiao, Hegeo). The next post that really caught my attention is this one + Show Spoiler + On May 23 2012 06:14 O.Golden_ne wrote: @Sciberbia: RE: Miltonkram. I was getting exactly the same read. I have found all his posts to date fairly inline with what i have experienced as mafia in the past. I have wanted to hear more from him since his first post, that's why i directed my question to him. His answer has a good point about us not having much information currently to make any solid stances, however he DOES side with all the safest views and DOESNT put anything ground breaking or new into the public arena before sidelining and going to bed. Definitely need to hear more from him before the day is out if he plans on having a leg to stand on, as i can see at the very least a case forming on him for being fluffy lurker. @Mordanis: RE: Hegeo. You raise some good points, but like i said earlier i can't base a vote on just a single incriminating post. Sometime people only have a short amount of time to zip into the thread and post. and in my experience ALL rushed posts come off with a scum vibe. So i for one am going to let the "coincidence" debate slide on this one, and try read a little further into other statements today before casting my vote. This is very important to establish early on also, for everyone. If you're town, you've got nothing to worry about other than posting as much info as you can before you die. We all don't want to be lynched because playing is fun, however its more important to play WELL than to play for a LONG TIME. Play for the team, not for yourself as thats how scum play. @Hegeo. I'd love to see your response to Releases accusation. As his is the most tangible accusation to date. Because he's acctually got a vote behind it! Please rebut. I'll be posting more in my lunch break in 5 hours. c u soon Alright, so this is taking a lot longer than I thought it would. I'm going to have to go to work in a little bit, but hopefully this (small) segment of the whole will be enough to spark some activity for the rest of the night, until I get back. | ||
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Mordanis
United States893 Posts
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Mordanis
United States893 Posts
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Mordanis
United States893 Posts
@ShiaoPi: Your main points against me are that I was one of the leaders of the lynch against Hegeo, that I had a knee-jerk response to Hegeo's accusations, and that one of me and release is scum. First, I was active in my case against Hegeo because I thought he was the strongest case we had. When I read through again, with hindsight, I could see some things that may have lessened my case against him, but I still feel that his play was the scummiest. And I also created a lot of information by following through on my case. Admittedly it is always a mistake to lynch a townie, but if you automatically lynch one of the leaders of the case that brings about the mislynch, you end up with no town activity. I made a mistake, but it was a necessary one for the town. About my knee-jerk: I read through like 2 spoilers before going to work, and I could already see that the case was very weak. As my much longer review shows, there is virtually no factual foundation for his claim. The logic he then uses doesn't make sense either (If playing similarly to another player is scummy, then Shiao must be scum because he keeps following Milton). I could already see that the case wasn't heading anywhere that should be harmful, so I off-handedly showed that one of his facts was not a fact. Look through my post where I look at his accusations, and tell me if you really think that was still a solid logical argument. If not, then I don't see any reason for suspicion. Finally, the whole thing about either me or Release being scum needs to end. This is the definition of a false dichotomy. The only basis for this argument is Milton's post + Show Spoiler + On May 25 2012 06:12 Miltonkram wrote: I think we all need to take a step back and look at the events of D1 a little more logically and less reactively. Why would a scum team both tunnel the same player? The only thing we're sure of is that hegeo flipped town, that doesn't make his analysis correct, anymore than it makes it incorrect. That being said, since Release and Mordanis were the two to put the most pressure on hegeo, I'd like to analyze their play under all possible circumstances. Mafia + Mafia Why would a scum team link their names D1 of the game? I think we all agree that Mordanis and Release were the most vocal against hegeo, and that could mean they tunneled him because they saw him as a weak target that they wouldn't get much flak for going against. If they are both scum, this is the most likely explanation of their actions. However, I just don't see a good enough reason for scum to band together on D1. That's a short-sighted play that would come back to bite them in the ass later. Possibility: least likely. Townie + Townie If both players were indeed town, an explanation of their actions could be that they just weren't ever satisfied with hegeo's defense. Let's face it, hegeo did not do a good job of defending himself. If he had, I would be the one lynched and he'd still be alive. So far, besides their knee-jerk reactions to hegeo's post, I'd say that they both have had decent, but not great town play. The bad news is, they've both played really scummy ever since hegeo's big reveal. Possibility: still unlikely, but more likely than M + M. Townie + Mafia Here's how I think it happened. The townie player felt he had a good case against his percieved scum target, and was encouraged that others felt the same way. The scum player knew he wouldn't be the only one targeted when hegeo flipped town and thus pulled the trigger and kept pressure on him. Worst case scenario for the scum player is a 50/50 situation where both he and the townie player are under pressure. Possibility: most likely situation. That is my read on last night's events. The good news is I think we have the scum player in the worst possible situation. A 50/50 lynch is still better than a 2/7 lynch. I'm going to go over both Mordanis' and Release's filters to see what kind of a case can be made against them. I've been thinking a lot about these events and I think my analysis is pretty good. Thoughts on this anyone? @ whoever said my analysis of the first 6 pages was simply a summarization: it wasn't. I looked at every major post in those pages and analyzed it to see how scummy it appeared. For the most part, all I got was that, at least initially, the case against Milton was mostly unfounded, and that Golden was being very suspicious. Perhaps I should have posted a short blurb telling what change happened in my estimation of each player. It was still fairly good analysis, and, as opposed to most of the talk in this thread, was based entirely on facts. @ ShiaoPi: My analysis was that only one post, not you as a player, was slightly scummy. I did the same for several other players. If you only seem slightly scummy, then you're in a pretty good place. Right now, I see no reason to build a case against you. | ||
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Why don't you pay more attention to Sciberia's accusation of Solstice then? Sciberia was certainly killed by mafia, was certainly town, and was logical. I just don't get why you pay more attention to Hegeo who was killed by the town because he was a bad townie (illogical). Care to explain why? OK, the time has come. ##Vote: O.Golden_ne. I may have jinxed this before, but gentlemen *raises his glass of RC cola in a toast* Here's to hope! | ||
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On May 27 2012 06:30 ShiaoPi wrote: Maybe I should have posted my opinion on sciberbia's thoughts kind of got lost when I spent time catching up to the thread. After the post of hegeo I was pretty sure that he would be flipping town. Maybe it is sheeping solstice's reasons, but I see no reason for scum to act as hegeo did. Hegeo basically thought, okay I am dead better leave my best scumread behind even if it costs me the chance to defend myself. On another note it was in sciberbia's own quote: It was not a "100%-convinced-of-it"-case as hegeo made his. I mean as I stated above, hegeo gave away his chance to make a reasonable defense for his case. Therefore I scrutinized it a lot more. Furthermore the mafia goals to shooting sciberbia have already outlined by me in this here: + Show Spoiler + On May 26 2012 00:35 ShiaoPi wrote: Sorry for the lack of activity before but as it is life happens. We just lost sciberbia so we probably should take a closer look on his filter: It mainly consists of pressure against Milton and some rebuttals with Mordanis and to a lesser extent release. Just before getting shot he also has a slight suspicion of solstice. What does mafia stand to gain from eliminating him? -Silencing a good and contributing townie, who was pretty much a high townread (at least in my opinion) -Removing Pressure off his targets -Making people suspicious of his targets Looking at it only the first point is a given the rest is probably close to WIFOM, but something to keep in mind following the discussion. Regarding our choice of lynch for day we now have as reasonable candidates Release/Mordanis/Milton and myself (I guess). I'll share my thoughts on the whole Release/Mordanis issue later, just wanted to say that we should not forget sciberbias contributions even though he got shot (maybe it should be even closer scrutinized because he was shot) As I pointed out you can only gain limited information from a nightkill as only 1) Silencing good/contributing town is a given. A lynch on the other hand gives you the entire dayplay to consider when rereading the thread to get to know how we ended up with that situation. So in conclusion, I did consider sciberbia's last post but I did not consider it to be as "strong" as hegeo's last post. Furthermore s0lstice's play after the post in which he explained his accusations against me seem to me very townie. As it is my personal read, I simply chose not to make that much out of sciberbia's "last words". I hope this makes sense to you, otherwise ask away! I just think you're over-romanticizing Hegeo's death. His construction of that accusation while ignoring everything else was a mistake IMO. Had he defended himself well, he could have made his accusation that night. His lynch was by no means written in stone, and some activity could easily have moved the lynch over to Milton. And I'm still so confused about the whole thing. I think he must have had the thread open to quote people and such, but he didn't look at what was happening? If for no other reason than to make a better case, I would imagine he would have to look at the latest posts. I think he may have even been able to avoid being lynched simply by saying something like "Hey, I'm working on a really solid case, brb!", or even posting the first few items. One of the things that contributed to him being lynched over Milton was the fact that he had no activity in the 14ish hours before the deadline. IDK, its just such a weird thing that happened. But I certainly don't see any reason to treat his post as holy writ. Summary: I don't see any reason to treat Hegeo's accusation as anything more than a case made by a confirmed townie. | ||
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United States893 Posts
On May 27 2012 07:30 ShiaoPi wrote: EBWOP: so as in your terms: hegeo was case of a confirmed townie and sciberbia was suspicion of a confirmed townie. I believe that a case has a higher value than a suspicion And I believe that following logic is more important than either. Logically, I don't quite get Sciberia's suspicion of Solstice, and I also really don't get the logic from Hegeo's accusation. But this is enough, I don't feel this discussion is very helpful. | ||
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skware votes on release golden votes on milton milton votes on golden solstice votes on golden Shiaopi votes on golden I vote on golden Release votes on golden So the totals are Release (1): Skware Milton (1) O.Golden_ne O.Golden_ne (5): everyone else | ||
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United States893 Posts
@Release: baiting a mafia kp is probably the dumbest thing you can do. It makes your accusation seem like something that you wrote up just to pressure one player, and if it gains no information. Whether Milton is actually scum or not is not shown by baiting a kp. If he is, letting you live might make him seem more like town. If he isn't though, killing him might make the obvious case be against milton. On the other hand, If he's scum killing you would silence pressure against him. And if he's not scum, letting you live could also add to the conspiracy. It all leads to massive WIFOM, bringing confusion to the town. | ||
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That is literally the most frustrating thing. It makes the game come down to whether we blindly trust him or blindly lynch him, and what his actual role is. It's hard to make one's self care about the game when, after all of this, it comes down to dumb luck. If skware is replaced, then his replacement is accountable for nothing. Nothing at all. He has two players before him whom he can easily say ignored the game, and WIFOM up any accusation made against him. What are your thoughts about this release? | ||
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On May 22 2012 09:25 Mufaa wrote: I was Mafia in XIII and the amount of lurkers in a 12 person game ruined it. We won after a misread by the vig n3 because 2 of the mafia lurked all 3 days and so did 2 townies and he guessed wrong. If we want to find the scum we need as much content out of everyone as possible. More content means more room for mafia mistakes while townies can't make a mistake if they're being honest. On May 23 2012 00:30 Release wrote: We need to start panicking if no one votes and it is a short time before the deadline. This is textbook no lynch territory. In this case, we need to start piling our votes on one candidate who has appeared the most scummy. Worst case scenario, we look at lurkers and choose to lynch one of them. Still, we need more information, especially because this is Day1 and we only have some 8 hours left and no concrete scum yet. On May 23 2012 04:45 Release wrote: + Show Spoiler + On May 23 2012 01:29 hegeo wrote: Sciberbia bringing the heat via analysis, I like it. Hey Release, some thoughts about your posts, and why I think you're not always helping town with them: a) Even though I understand where you're coming from, this is kind of pseudo-pressuring people, which is futile in the beginning of the game. This makes for an anti-town-atmosphere, since posting should be encouraged. b) It's not the best case to lynch lurkers, but if they don't contribute to town then it is at least good riddance. c) You are posting at least a considerable amount of non-productive posts right now, e.g. to this post... ... your answer was this: You consistently do this "#FOS"-stuff and then, you FOS Sciberibia... ..before even un##FOSing Mordanis: To answer in your own words: Even though there are many players that have a way shorter filter than you, what you do is generating "noise" (not always, you have your points that I can agree with and you definitely contribute). It seems as though you either just want to stir up anything you can (because both of these #FOSes came to nothing, which would make you a little scummy) or I read it as an overly motivated try to get information. Response to a) my point was that contributing useless information is worse than having no contribution at all. My example was Sciberia's asking the same question twice, which has since, been given some clarification. b) Lynching a lurker is not "good riddance". I don't see why a townie should feel that way. Lynching a lurker (if there are more than one) is random to a townie, but clear to the mafia. The mafia will obviously choose the lurker whom is a townie, therefore causing us to mislynch. Advocating a lurker lynch instead of focusing on those who are suspicious is a Mafia's way of thinking. In fact, you don't even list some alternative, despite it not being a best case scenario. + Show Spoiler + c)my answer was this: "My point is that Townies can make mistakes, but townies don't make slips. Mafia make can make mistakes; usually their mistake is to make a slip. I want to make that very clear. We shouldn't end up lynching for a mistake. We should lynch someone who makes a slip." From Newbie II game + Show Spoiler + Probulous got a AKCT lynched. That was a mistake. He was clearly contributing so even though he made a mistake, he shouldn't get lynched. (he didn't) Sheth however, does slip in trying to save his scumbuddy and got lynched for that. this was in support of the above point i made. Your c) and reasoning behind are Blatant Lies; you intentionally leave out my actual point to make it seem like i am posting filler. If i didn't know better, you know that i am town, and see that i am dangerous to your scum motives. You are targeting me with a weak case based on incomplete evidence. In regard to the FOS before unFOS, i did it to show that i was putting both of them under suspicion. There are 3 mafia. I only had 2. Are you seriously trying to convince to to avoid the larger picture and completely ignore anyone (other than the person who i am targeting at the moment) who might be Mafia? The FOS's got people talking. Talking is good for the town. Again, this is an example of where you completely ignore the larger picture. "overly motivated try to get information." All townies want information. After all, we don't know much. You however, seem perfectly content to let this day slip by without extracting a lot of information from it (presumably because you already have the information because you are scum). I see no other option as of yet (or until you reply) but to: ##Vote: Hegeo And some other times we've said that lynching a lurker is really only an option if we don't have another case. As long as we don't all fall off the face of the earth, everyone but skware/Mufaa will be much more likely to be lynched than the person who hasn't posted basically at all. And even more importantly, we've already agreed to do just that. I'm thinking that we need to at least seriously consider skware as a candidate for being lynched. It is annoyingly luck-based, but so is not lynching him at this point. | ||
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Here's even more evidence. Skware started out fairly actively, and posted pretty good analysis for someone who had just looked at the thread for the first time. He posts 3 semi-analytical posts in about 8 hours, and then claims that he will be inactive for a while due to sleep and work. Then he posts nothing more save a seemingly random vote for Release. The way I see it, he was fairly active in pointing out the things he saw until he read through the first few pages and found out that we would only "pressure" lurkers by maybe occasionally voting for one for a few hours, or putting a FOS on them, or even "being more suspicious" of them. That last part is sort of WIFOM, but I think we can agree that the facts seem suspicious. He is active, and when he gets time to analyze the thread, he disappears. And we said that we wouldn't lynch a lurker unless there isn't a better case. What are everyone else's thoughts? | ||
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United States893 Posts
suddenly you seem to have remembered your case on ShiaoPi after the lynch. Why not keep pushing his case until the very end if you actually believed that he was scum? . This seems an awful lot like your play (with your case against Milton being "forgotten" by your cases on Hegeo and Golden), and yet you seem to think it is very scummy. | ||
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On May 29 2012 04:06 Release wrote: All that stuff i posted before this moment: Pure Bullshit. Milton, plz, if you are able to read this in time, don't go wasting your time defending yourself. I made that case by concluding that every single action = scum. Don't respond to that. Go build a case on someone else. Do you see how this is ambiguous? It could mean through the entire game, through N2, or just what you've written D3, or anything in between. Don't blame me for misinterpreting when you aren't clear. Actually, why are you being so defensive? So far this cycle you've voted for two people and and said that you're trying to manipulate the game. And everything you've said against me is basically "OMGUS, you disagreed with me. OMGUS, you misinterpreted me.". Post real analysis. One more thing: On May 29 2012 05:56 Release wrote: Come on. Read. I just said that the post was bullshit. Now you're trying to quote my bullshit and turn it into evidence against me. I said it was bullshit, it is bullshit. It was purely for the "bait." This last post really doesn't make you shine townie in my eyes. Which was it? In the first post I quoted, you say that every one of Milton's actions was scummy. In the second post you say your accusation was bullshit. Which is it? | ||
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On May 28 2012 05:16 Release wrote: i think your defense is shit. Do it again, properly, or My vote is going to be on you and is not going to change unless some claims to be sum with a case on themselves. + Show Spoiler + On May 24 2012 02:54 Miltonkram wrote: Regarding people's suspicions of me. I've already explained my line of reasoning. My pressure on s0Lstice was a mistake on my part, simple as that. I'm willing to switch my vote on Mufaa, since I think he will be replaced/modkilled. All people had been saying up to that point in time amounted to, "Mufaa, we'd really like to hear from you." I wanted to see if he would make a response to some real pressure. I think we can agree that voting for someone is the most pressure you can put on them. At the time I was trying to do two things at once, pressure ShiaoPi and pressure Mufaa. I guess I didn't make it clear what I was doing. Also, I hadn't considered this: He's guaranteed to be lynched D2 if he does pop in to vote, so I won't concern myself with him anymore. My top scumread is still ShiaoPi. Essentially, he plays scum exactly how I would. His entire D1 posts have been pretty wishy-washy and noncommittal, allowing him freedom later in the game because he hasn't actually tied himself strongly to the information or accusations in any of his posts. With that in mind let's look at his first post. + Show Spoiler + Just came back from university. First of all we should definetly go for a lynch, no-lynch is (at least in my opinion) utter nonsense. Regarding Lurkers, I believe that they should be put under suspicion especially in a 9 player setup. I was in the same game as mufaa and lurking screwed us over pretty badly in a 13 player game. I must say I really like release's approach until now, we won't get anything worthwhile from just being nice to each other. Pressuring is a great way to get some more information and should be utilizied. The only slightly suspicious thing until now was sciberbia's long post and his absence since then, but until he responds there is nothing to make of it. Here's what he does, he compliments the most active player early on (Release) and talks about playstyle. Then he adds some weak suspicions toward sciberbia. Suspicion that he can easily back down from, and that certainly isn't breaking any new ground. Wait, doesn't this sound a lot like another early post? + Show Spoiler + Release- I like the way you're starting out this game. If we are going to catch scum we need to be aggressive about it. Don't worry too much about the tone of your posts. sciberbia's post does seem a bit suspicious. He repeats his ideas several times in different ways to make it look like he's putting out more info than he actually is. It seems quite scummy to me. Mordanis- Don't get too offended by aggressive behavior. If mafia doesn't actually think that a little pressure will lead to a lynch, then why should they answer any questions at all? We need to make sure that people are held accountable to what they say. sciberbia- What do you have to say about the accusations pointed at you? There's quite a bit of fluffy information in your post. Let's try to keep the conversation more focused on who might be scum, everything else is secondary. That's right, his entire first post is a rehash of one of my first posts. A post I made before him. If my first post wasn't breaking any new ground, his certainly wasn't. It seems a good way to blend in with the crowd without sticking his neck out there. He goes on to immediately back down from his pressure with this post. + Show Spoiler + Maybe I should have rephrased my post on the suspicions towards you Sciberbia: I was not that much concerned about your absence but just on the amount of seemingly "useless" things within the post. Don't see anything wrong with your elaborations on it now. Here we get the first taste of ShiaoPi's tactic. He pressures someone and then states, "Oh, I wasn't actually pressuring you." It seems like a good way to blend in while also "contributing" as scum. This is just the first instance of his noncommittal aggression. Let's look at his suspicions of hegeo. + Show Spoiler + I am unsure what to make of hegeo. The one thing which seems suspicious to me is his timing after being called out, the other stuff could easily be bad townie or careful day 1 play. Seeing that I am getting flak for my style it is easy to see why he gets thoroughly investigated now. What stands out from his posts is the analytical part. It seems to be lacking solidity to make the longer posts which he does not really support (see: + Show Spoiler +) Basing from this statement he must himself believe to have solid cases going with his "wall of texts", but in my opinion they are not solid at all. Once again this is "suspicion" that he doesn't actually have to commit to, and he hopes he won't be held accountable for. I would ask you all this, who would be more damaging as scum? The actions I've taken in the game have all been actions that I've committed to. (barring the mistake I made with s0Lstice, but that was just me being dumb.) You can actually tie me to what I've written and hold me accountable later in the game, whereas ShiaoPi seems to have some sort of "escape clause" in almost every single one of his posts. The only thing he's been adamant about has been his FOS of s0Lstice, and that pressure has a built in escape to it, seeing as he can excuse himself by saying that s0Lstice had pressured him first. Anyway, what are people's thoughts on this? Seeing as I'll be away for an hour or two I'm going to go ahead and vote. ##unVote: Mufaa ##Vote: ShiaoPi you switch away and point out the obvious about Mufaa. Not useful at all, except that it stops people from accusing you of being obvious scum. ShiaoPi was being fair to sciberia, if anything. It was pretty much the first content post and clearly, sciberia was inexperienced and had questions to ask us. Ok, so you point out that SHiaoPi repeated your arguement. That's fair, but if you criticize him, go criticize yourself too. Sciberia was new to the game. he flipped town which confirms that his questions were a valid attempt to understand the game and ShiaoPi clearly just trying to see how Sciberia responds. I'll admit here that ShiaoPi is very noncommital, but i think your are being quite overcommital with your vote based on this case that you could almost apply to yourself. + Show Spoiler + On May 24 2012 07:39 Miltonkram wrote: ShiaoPi, I did not deliberately disregard your later posts. However, real life has gotten in the way of me posting more content and my follow up analysis of your later posts was left undone. Suffice to say, I think what you call play style is actually your built in excuse for your scummy behavior. I think the healthy town atmosphere has forced you to be more active than you originally planned, and only after you were pressured by s0Lstice and myself did you begin to post decent, but not good, content. If I may sum up your play style for the sake of time: -Lurk until there is pressure on you -Respond to pressure with mostly defensive statements -When that doesn't work, begin to put counter-pressure on your attacker -Bandwagon on me once you see that I'm a prime lynch I'd post more direct analysis, but once again, time is running short. Everyone, I hope you can figure out why this is scummy activity in my eyes. If I get lynched today, I hope you keep this in mind. The pressure seems to be off ShiaoPi right now, so unless I can miraculously convince you all to vote for him I guess I'll have to switch my targets. Here you try to apply some stereotypical Scum characteristics on him without too much elaboration. No time? I might have given you that if you posted an analysis after that post but i can't find any. You suddenly seem to have dropped his case. That is scummy + Show Spoiler + On May 24 2012 07:54 Miltonkram wrote: Very well, I don't like making this move, but if we lynch hegeo, there is at least a small chance of him being mafia. ##unVote: ShiaoPi ##Vote: hegeo For the record, if you lynch me and see me flip town, that doesn't mean hegeo is mafia. Too much of his case has been circumstantial, and too much of it has been just a few vocal players tunneling him. If you don't believe hegeo was scum, don't vote him. But you seem keen on joining the bandwagon for him. Also, no analysis here: so you don't have to defend yourself against false analysis and to claim that you just want a majority vote. + Show Spoiler + On May 25 2012 06:12 Miltonkram wrote: I think we all need to take a step back and look at the events of D1 a little more logically and less reactively. Why would a scum team both tunnel the same player? The only thing we're sure of is that hegeo flipped town, that doesn't make his analysis correct, anymore than it makes it incorrect. That being said, since Release and Mordanis were the two to put the most pressure on hegeo, I'd like to analyze their play under all possible circumstances. Mafia + Mafia Why would a scum team link their names D1 of the game? I think we all agree that Mordanis and Release were the most vocal against hegeo, and that could mean they tunneled him because they saw him as a weak target that they wouldn't get much flak for going against. If they are both scum, this is the most likely explanation of their actions. However, I just don't see a good enough reason for scum to band together on D1. That's a short-sighted play that would come back to bite them in the ass later. Possibility: least likely. Townie + Townie If both players were indeed town, an explanation of their actions could be that they just weren't ever satisfied with hegeo's defense. Let's face it, hegeo did not do a good job of defending himself. If he had, I would be the one lynched and he'd still be alive. So far, besides their knee-jerk reactions to hegeo's post, I'd say that they both have had decent, but not great town play. The bad news is, they've both played really scummy ever since hegeo's big reveal. Possibility: still unlikely, but more likely than M + M. Townie + Mafia Here's how I think it happened. The townie player felt he had a good case against his percieved scum target, and was encouraged that others felt the same way. The scum player knew he wouldn't be the only one targeted when hegeo flipped town and thus pulled the trigger and kept pressure on him. Worst case scenario for the scum player is a 50/50 situation where both he and the townie player are under pressure. Possibility: most likely situation. That is my read on last night's events. The good news is I think we have the scum player in the worst possible situation. A 50/50 lynch is still better than a 2/7 lynch. I'm going to go over both Mordanis' and Release's filters to see what kind of a case can be made against them. I've been thinking a lot about these events and I think my analysis is pretty good. Thoughts on this anyone? we've been over this: too many assumptions, an attempt to fool the town. + Show Spoiler + On May 25 2012 10:20 Miltonkram wrote: @ Release- Misinformation? Where? All I'm trying to do is explain the assumption that I'll be working from as I analyze you and Mordanis's posts. In my post I was stating all the possibilities so that I could begin eliminating those possibilities that are less likely. From this point on, I am assuming that between the two of you (Release, Mordanis), I'm pretty sure one of you is scum and one of you is town. Let me restate this plainly: I don't think both of you are mafia. I don't think both of you are town. I think one of you is mafia and one of you is town. I believe this for the reasons I stated in my last long post. an assumption based defense; scummy Accusing me of labeling analysis as WIFOM. Your assumptions absolutely were WIFOM because there is nothing concrete to go by. + Show Spoiler + On May 25 2012 11:34 Miltonkram wrote: I'm going to be reading the filters for a while, so no posts from me for a bit. Right now my top scumreads are: -ShiaoPi: I think he excuses his scummy play by calling it play style. He came into the game with lurker/defensive play in mind, and only after he realized such play wouldn't cut it did he really get active. -Release/Mordanis: I'm not sure which one of these is scum, but I'm convinced that one of them used the other to cover their scumminess. Lastly, I've defended my play here: + Show Spoiler + On May 23 2012 19:02 @ Golden- You raise several good points, and I will do my best to explain my line of thinking. First you stated about me: If you still have a problem with my defense that's fine. Quite honestly, I'm kind of expecting to get lynched tonight anyway. Maybe when/if I get lynched it will be for the best and people will actually take my accusations seriously, but I'm going to continue to play the best I can no matter what. I'll be back in a little while. suddenly you seem to have remembered your case on ShiaoPi after the lynch. Why not keep pushing his case until the very end if you actually believed that he was scum? and from here, you make some statements on Mordanis and I that have since been addressed so i won't go over again. + Show Spoiler + On May 27 2012 03:59 Miltonkram wrote: We need to come to a consensus on skware quickly. We have less than 5 hours until deadline. skware is a pure policy lynch at this point, we simply don't have enough information to make a case for him or against him. Since he stated that he likely won't be back until after the deadline we need to plan for the worst case scenario, that he won't make it back in time. We don't gain much info from him if he flips either way, under that line of reasoning he could very well be scum. Thoughts? Golden's defense does not satisfy me, and that leads me to believe he's having difficulty figuring out a way to defend his actions. With that in mind ##Vote: O.Golden_ne If we decide that skware is the policy lynch I will switch my vote to him. Mordanis, I want to hear a defense from you, otherwise I will consider switching my vote to you. A vote on Golden as well as some random talk about lynching Skware. Like with mufaa, we don't need to worry about Skware until he disappears and probably gets modkilled. Then, you make a sentence which essentially gives you an opportunity to jump on a Mordanis bandwagon, should it start. So, if i die tonight, i beg that you lynch Milton. Lynch him to hell. From the bolded: You suddenly seem to have dropped his case. That is scummy . This is exactly what Release has been doing all game. He reads someone as scum, then returns to Milton. Reads someone else as scum, then returns to Milton. There is a contradiction in his play, and I thought that was why I misinterpreted what he said. Now I realize that it is just that, inconsistent. I find that very suspicious.And suddenly you seem to have remembered your case on ShiaoPi after the lynch. Why not keep pushing his case until the very end if you actually believed that he was scum? | ||
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On May 30 2012 05:55 ShiaoPi wrote: 2,5 hours to lynch, I really hope this better be working. Really do not want to gamble on that shit. Hey skware you here? ##vote: skware If he isn't here to vote, we need at least one of the scum to vote for another scum to not lose. That is, if he doesn't vote for anyone, the two scum can keep from voting and force a no-lynch, at which point it'll be 2 scum - 2 town, at which point they win. That's assuming he isn't scum himself. If he is, we lynch him and go to another LYLO. Point is, if he isn't here to vote, town loses no matter what unless he's scum in which case we should vote for him. ##vote: skware | ||
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On May 30 2012 07:40 ShiaoPi wrote: What annoys me to no end is that there is nothing town can do now besides going for the 2/5 chance that he is scum. If he is town we will not get enough votes to get a lynch and scum can easily mask themselves beneath the vote on the "only logical" choice that is left for town. It is just a fucking frustrating situation for LYLO and I am actually really pissed about this... Yeah, its sort of a shitty way for a game into which I think we've all poured a lot of time and effort into to end just because someone forgot his TL.net login or something. There really is no other option though. And I think if we made it more clear that lurking would lead to being killed (maybe D2), we may have scared him into posting more. | ||
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On May 30 2012 09:07 Release wrote: Everytime i read through your filter, I kept think bandwagon, bandwagon, bandwagon. The red hegeo w/o a vote and then you vote after my case and vote just stinked of scum all over. This is just such a weird thing to me because I actually was the first to post any accusation of Hegeo and also the first to post suspicion on Golden. | ||
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Shiao and Release: you guys were much stronger than I expected. I don't know if you were intentionally holding back all game or what, but at several points I felt like we had the game won ezpz, and then for some reason (I still have no idea why Shiao was defending Release at the end), you guys walled up the whole that I was expecting to exploit. GG guys, I'm sorry it had to end this way. | ||
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 ), and hopefully after that I'll move on to the big leagues Also, right now I feel no drive to sign up for another game. It just ended in a kind of depressing way, but I'll probably feel the need to sign up again in about the time it take for summer school to run its course. And to all the non-newbies who obsed this: Thanks for the encouragement and help, I'll try to make to repay you with good games in the future! And VE, is there a QT for observers or hosts? I'd love to see what people who weren't in the game thought of my play. HAH! I can edit! I forgot to say that I'm very grateful to VisceraEyes and Marv for hosting this game. You guys are teh bomb! | ||
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On another note, I feel much better about my play after reading the obs QT ^^ | ||
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On May 30 2012 14:54 hegeo wrote: GG Mafia! Was such a pleasure to play with you all, even though you killed me D1 (well, I feel I'm pretty much guilty of that myself). I'll post more later, just wanted to say that I really felt the Mordanis/Release interactions were soo weird. I now realize that for this to happen, not both (sorry Release  ) but only one of them needs to play weird. Nicely played by you, Mordanis and Milton (Mordanis, don't feel bad plz, you two deserved it. One additional very active townie would have helped us perhaps, but even then it would have been hard for us). Also, rest of town, was a pleasure to see so much effort especially also on D2. If it makes you feel any better, I still don't understand what he was trying to do :/ And I feel bad because the game ended with a fizzle. If I had dug a yard under everyone else's plan and made the hoist to their own petard (Hamlet FTW), I would have felt great. The way things went though, it was just sort of a foregone conclusion, that was decided when the bandwagon started on Golden. I feel like I could have shown. That being said, Release apparently being convinced that I was scum without anything but a "this post doesn't make you shine as town", while being convinced that Milton was town after concluding that every action of his was scummy, and apparently still backing that up is still messing with my head. I have no idea why he didn't at least make a case on me. Perhaps he was fairly certain (as was I) that skware wouldn't return, and didn't want to put in several hours of work to make a solid case only to lose the game by the two scum refusing to vote (or vote for someone else). | ||
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On May 30 2012 23:01 marvellosity wrote: You're right, the margins are small. I felt a Milton lynch was a definite possibility at some points, it just drifted away from it. If you managed to lynch him, a couple of posts like these could raise suspicions: Wishy washy post, soft defends Milton, before saying people should not defend other people and speak for themselves Especially this post rang alarm bells for me. Saying he's happy to lynch Milton, but trying to find any bad reason not to do so. I admit that these would have been very scummy if Milton had been lynched, but I didn't think I could have won anyways in a 6 vs. 1. I was very close to PMing VE that I would concede if Milton was lynched. They were a last ditch effort to take some attention away from the case on Milton. | ||
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 If anyone ever asks me who the best teacher is for mafia, I'll have a clear answer. Well, actually I'd probably say Al Pacino, but after him, Echelon is the man! | ||
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