EPTWheel of Fortune Mini Mafia - Page 34
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VisceraEyes
United States21171 Posts
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strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
I further postulate that this makes his town play less helpful to the town than it makes his scum play helpful to the scum team. The clear solution is to lynch Ace every game until he shapes up. That probably won't happen this game, but it's definitely something to think about. Now, here's my thoughts on what appears to be the main issue of the hour: Regarding the VE case, I note that he's finally given us an explanation for behavior that we all agree is outside of his usual meta. He claims that he's decided consciously to play a less active town, because the way he normally plays town gets him killed earlier than he likes in a lot of games. The questions are (a) whether this explains the weirdness that we've noticed about his behavior, and (b) whether we believe him. As far as (a) goes, I think it would definitely explain his abnormally low amount of posting, since obviously that's exactly what it's intended to explain. However, it doesn't answer away some of the other parts of Radfield's case against him, like the accusations that VE doesn't care about the lynch, has a mafia oriented mindset, etc. VE's answers to those arguments are found in other parts of his defense, not in this mindset claim. (b), however, is where I get a bit suspicious. Even though I can understand the motivation of wanting to stay alive, it seems like a mini like this one where something like half the players are known mafia veterans would be the worst one to start a conscious change in meta as a townie. First, it's bound to raise suspicion unnecessarily from players who are known good readers of meta. Second, even if a domineering and very active town style tends to attract mafia guns in normal games, in a game like this one where there's plenty of veteran targets, it seems odd to be so worried about getting killed quickly - especially when VE himself has posted about how stacked this town is and how he couldn't be a leader in it. Third, and related to the first two, VE should have known that he would be making himself an easy vote park for scum by changing up his playstyle on purpose. On the other hand, the point about this game being an odd choice to consciously change meta also applies to if VE is scum; he still would have known that it would attract attention. My interpretation is that VE's play this game is not like either his normal town play or his normal scum play. I just am not convinced that his explanation for that holds up, so it makes me lean towards a scum read on him. | ||
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Snarfs
Canada1006 Posts
On April 28 2012 04:38 strongandbig wrote: I postulate that Ace intentionally plays scummy as town so that when he's scum he can play scummy and get away with it. I further postulate that this makes his town play less helpful to the town than it makes his scum play helpful to the scum team. The clear solution is to lynch Ace every game until he shapes up. That probably won't happen this game, but it's definitely something to think about. I thought about this, but the problem I have with this theory is that you'd have to accept the following to reach your conclusion: Premiss: Ace is willing to admit to himself that he is not a good enough player to play well both as town and mafia. I do not accept this premiss; therefore, I think Ace is scum. | ||
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On April 28 2012 04:38 strongandbig wrote: (b), however, is where I get a bit suspicious. Even though I can understand the motivation of wanting to stay alive, it seems like a mini like this one where something like half the players are known mafia veterans would be the worst one to start a conscious change in meta as a townie. First, it's bound to raise suspicion unnecessarily from players who are known good readers of meta. Second, even if a domineering and very active town style tends to attract mafia guns in normal games, in a game like this one where there's plenty of veteran targets, it seems odd to be so worried about getting killed quickly - especially when VE himself has posted about how stacked this town is and how he couldn't be a leader in it. Third, and related to the first two, VE should have known that he would be making himself an easy vote park for scum by changing up his playstyle on purpose. I think this is an excellent point. I'm at work right now, and may not last the night, but I'm fairly convinced VE is scum. I'm pretty sure that other than defending himself, he has done absolutely nothing for a long time. I'm also not married to my DT check on Ace. His play this game reeks of scum. | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
On April 28 2012 00:35 Sbrubbles wrote: I could, but my reads aren't that strong at this point. I'd rather not make a half-baked case and wait until daypost. The only this I found strange in Ace's play was not wanting to talk about other lynch candidades, specifically this post: + Show Spoiler + On April 25 2012 23:06 Ace wrote: Irrelevant. I'm not answering this because it does nothing to further the game as its just throwing more names out there. Right now what is important is Mr.Zentor and your defense against him. Putting out more scum reads does nothing. But it makes sense if he suspects you, since he is pressuring you to talk. Otherwise, I've agreed with his play and most his reads so far. I almost always keep my reads of other players to myself unless I feel we really are getting no where. When the Zentor lynch was going on I didn't want to bring up other players because that can easily derail the wagon and cause a NL. On April 28 2012 04:38 strongandbig wrote: I postulate that Ace intentionally plays scummy as town so that when he's scum he can play scummy and get away with it. I further postulate that this makes his town play less helpful to the town than it makes his scum play helpful to the scum team. The clear solution is to lynch Ace every game until he shapes up. What about my play is intentionally Scummy? Since you've obviously read the 30 or so games here I've played I'd love to hear it. On April 28 2012 00:13 Sbrubbles wrote: @Ace + Show Spoiler + On April 27 2012 10:55 Ace wrote: Ok let me try this again. BL shows up "defending" Mr.Zentor's lynch long before it happens. However, he never talks about why Zentor must be Town. I don't see it in any of his posts so if they are there show me. It's literally "I dont think a Townie would do this" which isn't a real defense. If he REALLY thinks Zentor is innocent why would he not destroy any of the posts against him? He didn't. This is why I said he comes off as Scum knowing Zentor is innocent ahead of time. He looks like he's defending Zentor but he really isn't. The second bolded doesn't make him Town. "Looking for Scum" is subjective as even Scum can look for Scum. I don't think you are looking at the big picture here. Once again, look at the chain of events the way they went down. Once you showed up with a post on VE, BL shows up with a 19 minutes later with a post calling out a Scum team of VE, Forumite and phagga. His next post after that is calling out Sbrubbles as Scum. He even tries to throw me in there and says me and Sbrubbles must be talking in QT. That's 5 players in not even a quarter of a day that he calls out before Zentor is even flipped and you want to believe he was actually Scum hunting. Seriously this is very simple: If he truly believed Zentor was Town and he is also Town then why would he focus his efforts on calling out 5 other players instead of saving Zentor? He had ample time. He also should know that calling 5 players out isn't going to lead to all of them voting for whoever he thinks is Scum. This was a feigned attempt to look like he was defending a player and attempting to find Scum when he did neither. I feel like his town Zentor read was a gut read, and, frankly, Zentor himself wasn't resisting the lynch, so it was hard to defend him. I would argue that Bluelightz's intentions were simply to not let the discussion die out. Just because there's a good candidade is in place, it doesn't mean we should cease talking. I don't agree with his reads nor how he pushes them, but I don't think he's scum. He's being erratic, but, unlike Zentor, he's being much more accusative. Even if you don't want the discussion to die out how does accusing so many people in a short amount of time get us anywhere? I've done the same behavior as Scum many times just to get the finger pointing started amongst the Town. On April 28 2012 00:21 Bluelightz wrote: Like I said in my previous post's about this topic: I tried to stop the Zentor train but everyone never bothered to read his meta or believe me. Could you answer my question about Ace? Also, who would list as your top 3 scum candidates? Zentor's meta is irrelevant. If he does scummy things we don't go "thats just his meta" and ignore it. That isn't even a real defense of the guy. Like seriously is anyone fucking reading around here? On one hand we have people saying he tried to keep the discussion going by naming a bunch of other suspects, on the other he says he tried to stop the Zentor train by informing us about his meta. It can't be both. | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
On April 28 2012 05:28 Radfield wrote: I think this is an excellent point. I'm at work right now, and may not last the night, but I'm fairly convinced VE is scum. I'm pretty sure that other than defending himself, he has done absolutely nothing for a long time. I'm also not married to my DT check on Ace. His play this game reeks of scum. Give me some deodorant if you're so confident. | ||
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Snarfs
Canada1006 Posts
On April 27 2012 08:36 VisceraEyes wrote: I don't agree that BL is even a proper candidate - and I find it odd that Rad and Ace both seem to think he's the "easy lynch". This game is...very odd. I'll post my final thoughts before dawn. Can you post them now? You are near the top of a few scum lists that I've seen floating around so I wouldn't worry about mafia targetting you. | ||
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Snarfs
Canada1006 Posts
On April 28 2012 05:30 Ace wrote: Like I said in my previous post's about this topic: I tried to stop the Zentor train but everyone never bothered to read his meta or believe me. Could you answer my question about Ace? Also, who would list as your top 3 scum candidates? Zentor's meta is irrelevant. If he does scummy things we don't go "thats just his meta" and ignore it. That isn't even a real defense of the guy. Like seriously is anyone fucking reading around here? On one hand we have people saying he tried to keep the discussion going by naming a bunch of other suspects, on the other he says he tried to stop the Zentor train by informing us about his meta. It can't be both. [/QUOTE] Yes, it can. Why can't he both be trying to prevent the Zentor lynch AND keep discussion going? These do not scream mutually exclusive to me. | ||
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Snarfs
Canada1006 Posts
On April 28 2012 05:30 Ace wrote: Zentor's meta is irrelevant. If he does scummy things we don't go "thats just his meta" and ignore it. That isn't even a real defense of the guy. Like seriously is anyone fucking reading around here? On one hand we have people saying he tried to keep the discussion going by naming a bunch of other suspects, on the other he says he tried to stop the Zentor train by informing us about his meta. It can't be both. Yes, it can. Why can't he both be trying to prevent the Zentor lynch AND keep discussion going? These do not scream mutually exclusive to me. | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
I think when he says "read Zentor's meta, he is Town" you guys count that as a defense when I see it as him just feigning defense and then just pop out 5 names as suspects. Go back, read the case I made. Then go back and read that part of the thread again to see how things progressed. If I'm wrong then show me and we can talk about it. I get the feeling people are literally ignoring my posts and not even trying to see where I'm coming from here. | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
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phagga
Switzerland2194 Posts
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prplhz
Denmark8045 Posts
As I understand it (I did read it so reading is not the issue), you are saying that "Bluelightz' defense of MrZentor was not good enough to convince himself if he were town, so he must have had prior knowledge and consequently be scum" but this depends on two things: the evidence itself and the guy who has to be convinced by it. Do you think that the evidence the Bluelightz proposed was too bad to convince a town Bluelightz of MrZentor's innocence? I think it was a pretty bad defense too because I think it was plain wrong, MrZentor has no meta of playing anything like this as town. | ||
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VisceraEyes
United States21171 Posts
Here's what I've been looking for - wild swings in town sentiment. Why? Because I've got a scum-read on Ace and Ace is the master of directing/utilizing town sentiment. What I've noticed is that there have been NO wild swings in town sentiment, except for the most recent suspicion on me - but my playstyle this game has been very out of the ordinary, so I don't think anyone was responsible for that. This made me go look at the events that have occurred in the thread and how people reacted to them. D1 was pretty non-eventful. There was a little talk about mason claims and toward the end of the day there was a little talk about the lynch. This was when I posted my lynch list. On this lynch list was Radfield, Ace and Sbrubbles. I initially decided to vote for Ace, but reconsidered and voted for Sbrubbles in an earnest attempt to get a lynch to happen. Toad asked me why Sbrubbles and not (for instance) marv. My response was that I could lynch either marv or Sbrubbles based on the same reasoning. This was when Radfield came into the thread On April 24 2012 04:34 Radfield wrote: Through the power of delegation I've made it back early  VE: My intention of voting you was simply to see how you would react to moderate pressure. In past games I've played with you you've gotten pretty panicky as scum when people start pushing you. My intention was to see your reaction, but I really couldn't follow through with any real pressure, since I haven't had the time. I never really intended on getting you lynched, but when you disappeared it seemed out of character for you. Either way I don't think you are a good lynch candidate for today. Likewise, I don't think voting Ace makes a lot of sense either. I've said this before and will say it again: Lynching a potentially strong player on day 1(in the absence of a strong case) is very poor play. In this game that would be myself, Ace and Sandro, as I would say all three of us are consistently strong town-aligned players. Lynching any of the three of us only does mafia a favor. Shrubbles actually looks ok to me right now. He really only has two posts, as two of his posts are back to back. Though actually now that I look at it, they are timestamped on the exact same minute... + Show Spoiler + On April 23 2012 12:39 Sbrubbles wrote: I don't think VE is scummy and I don't trust cases based solely on meta. There's plenty of time for him to respond to accusations tomorrow, so we'll see what he says. MrZentor's early game was both agressive and annoying. His case on prplhz was pretty bad in my opinion and the self vote thing could mean absolutely anything (and, therefore, only causes confusion at this point). Still, the only game I've played with him he was scum, but his play was (at least initially) more calm and poised, so I am unsure what to make of this. I don't know whether I'd vote for him or not, gotta think more on it. Prplhz, you're being pretty quiet, which is a bit strange considering your early hustle with MrZentor. Forumite made a case on him and wants him lynched; can you comment on it? What do you think of MrZentor? Would you vote for him? On April 23 2012 12:39 Sbrubbles wrote: Radfield, you are the one looking the most suspicious to me right now. On the Zentor/prplhz exchange, you defend Zentor, but agree with Forumite on Zentor's case on prplhz being weak: + Show Spoiler + On April 22 2012 11:35 Radfield wrote: That is some weak sauce Zentor. Much of this I agree with, though not the last sentence. Zentor does not scream scum to me, at least not yet, and following this course through likely only nets us a dead townie. As you say yourself, only 1/3 of the players have even posted, so no need to be hasty. And now, you're indirectly accusing prplhz, even though there has been no case on him (besides Zentor's, which you implied was weak) and haven't made one of your own. What's up with that? + Show Spoiler + On April 23 2012 08:43 Radfield wrote: I was serious when I said I was willing to vote VE, however prplhz needs to show up or he might get the vote as well. More to come. ##vote Visceraeyes Also, you were the first to offer to vote VE (without an actual explanation as to why), and waited until someone else appeared voting for him in order to actually cast your vote. Is this merely a coincidence or were you waiting for someone else to accuse and vote him in order for yourself not to stand out? + Show Spoiler + On April 22 2012 22:26 Radfield wrote: I'm down with a VE vote at this point. On April 23 2012 08:43 Radfield wrote: I agree with Toad, enough about the masons. If in fact they exist, they have enough information and opinions to make their own decision. I was serious when I said I was willing to vote VE, however prplhz needs to show up or he might get the vote as well. More to come. ##vote Visceraeyes How did you manage to write up that second post in 1 minute? I suppose you could have written it up beforehand, but if so, then why did you make two seperate posts? That makes no sense, so please explain. Marvellosity seems like an ok lynch, though in the newbie game(Newbie VI) I hosted, marvellosity really only posted one liners during day 1, which is what he's doing here as well. I'd like to compare and contrast the two game before I make any serious judgement. ##unvote The odd part about this is that this is NOT what marv's been doing this game, and it took me going back and rereading it again to realize it. Go read the early part of D1. Marvelosity didn't have the same kinds of one-liners Radfield was describing, the ones from his newbie game. Those were entirely devoid of thought and did nothing to further the game. What marvelosity has been doing this game is attempting to blend in by discussing topics that town are discussing, but without giving a firm stance one way or the other. Marvelosity was very obviously town by this point in Radfield's game. That same obviousness is not apparent in this game...and the fact that Radfield hasn't commented on this fact, or observed it in any way as far as I can see is extremely suspicious to me. Now, fast-forward. Radfield is suddenly a cop and has a green-check on Ace. His top suspect? VisceraEyes, the lurky scumhunting prodigy, who just happens to be the only person suspicious of the target of his "green check". He posted a fairly considerable case on me, which I've responded to in full. He hasn't addressed my response a single time, but as waffled between whether he thinks I'm suspicious or not. At first it seemed as though he accepted my response - but then when people started putting my name forward as being suspect, suddenly Radfield agrees that I'm still suspicious. Marvelosity and Radfield are scum. Regardless of whether I live or die tonight, you guys should take a hard look at Radfield and Marvelosity. | ||
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Also, you were not the only person suspicious of Ace. There is a reason I checked him after all. Not to mention, what are you even insinuating here? That me and Ace are scum buddies? Also, please show me where I waffled on thinking you are scum. Me not responding to your defense has nothing to do with whether I agree with it or not. It has to do with time, and how much of it I have. The short version is that I still think you're scum. I think Marv is probably town. | ||
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
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VisceraEyes
United States21171 Posts
On April 28 2012 07:06 Radfield wrote: I actually still haven't gone back and looked at marvellosity's play in Newbie VI. I think the prospect of comparing one-liners is too tedious a task for me, because I've put it off like 5 times Also, you were not the only person suspicious of Ace. There is a reason I checked him after all. Not to mention, what are you even insinuating here? That me and Ace are scum buddies? Also, please show me where I waffled on thinking you are scum. Me not responding to your defense has nothing to do with whether I agree with it or not. It has to do with time, and how much of it I have. The short version is that I still think you're scum. I think Marv is probably town. I'm not surprised. Scum.  | ||
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
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VisceraEyes
United States21171 Posts
On April 28 2012 07:06 Radfield wrote: Also, you were not the only person suspicious of Ace. There is a reason I checked him after all. Not to mention, what are you even insinuating here? That me and Ace are scum buddies? I'm insinuating that you knew that Ace was innocent and used that to try and get him on your side by "clearing" him D2. What kind of cop claims just to "clear" someone anyway? Cops don't claim to "clear" someone, they claim to kill scum. Why in the piss would you render yourself useless to town by claiming JUST TO CLEAR ACE?! | ||
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VisceraEyes
United States21171 Posts
On April 28 2012 07:10 Radfield wrote: I bet I get shot before you this game VE I bet you don't scum - I think you'd be dead already if you weren't scum. | ||
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