EPT/in
Responsibility Mafia!
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Palmar
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Scum is Wiggles's meta. | ||
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No lazy posting, no bullshit. | ||
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L's opening post is so shitty. It's like the recipe for a bad opening post. step 1: Speculate about the setup step 2: Discuss posting policy step 3: Shoot down an easily shot down idea step 4: Tell people to behave. The best part, there's actually nothing in it that will in any way help move the game forward. I'm not familiar with L's play, and maybe he isn't aware that everyone in this game is kinda good-ish maybe. | ||
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On December 20 2011 18:33 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: PALM-AIR. It's day 1, what else would you like him to currently say? There's plenty of things that can be prodded already in the thread. | ||
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And yes, please sign your posts. I'm not sure I understand Chez's traitor claim (and to be fair he did include that picture linked in his smiley, although I have no idea what that's supposed to mean) but I don't think it says much about his alignment at the moment. @VisceraEyes, do you think policy lynching Chezinu is the way forward this game? If so, why? | ||
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How do you feel about that? | ||
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On December 21 2011 00:05 Jackal58 wrote: Or the Mafia are alerting the traitor to them. Could go either way. I don't think there is any reason for the mafia to risk outing themselves in the thread in an attempt to communicate with the traitor. The traitor doesn't need to know the mafia to be able to help out, however the traitor has plenty of reason to make himself known to the mafia because he wants to avoid being shot by the mafia. Which could be the only upside of Chezinu's play assuming he actually is the traitor, but I don't think he really was in any danger of being shot with just his normal play. | ||
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I'm not sure how to interpret WBG's case against LSB. It just feels a bit... forced. Especially the SK part. I mean, it cannot possibly be fishy that he's posting about SKs unless you're making the assumption that LSB must be a SK. Otherwise it bears no indication of his alignment. While I do agree on the repeated misunderstandings (I've not had a problem understanding anything I consider worth reading in this thread, and english is my 2nd language) and clarifications, I'm not sure it actually makes LSB scum. I'd be much more inclined to just fucking lynch bumatlarge for day 1 blueclaiming. | ||
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Best post in the thread yet. | ||
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On December 21 2011 10:26 VisceraEyes wrote: Why all the L hate? I read L's first post and it was like BAM, metal intro music, bitches going crazy, etc. His second post gave me the same feeling. What has got you guys all worked up about L? I mean, aside from the THREE in-game posts he's made? They all appear to be fairly good contributions...am I missing something? Now that you've proven you can scumhunt, you should be able to recognize textwalls that don't contribute jack, which is basically what L has produced so far. | ||
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Yes I do agree that GM would be a pretty good lynch today. I tried to get him to explain why all he had to offer was policy lynches but he hasn't posted since. I don't think we should be lynching prplhz though, he's marginally more useful than most people in this thread. Did you notice that BloodyC0bbler came into the thread and the one thing he focused on was the RNG idea, something that had been out of the discussion for a long while by then. I still believe it's a good idea if a town would roll with it from the start, but at the point his post is completely irrelevant to the discussion, to the point that this post is basically a huge pile of nothing. We know absolutely nothing about BC from that one post. In addition I've had a problem with L's posting since the very beginning, I don't know if this was how you posted back when he was playing but in today's environment that's almost enough to just lynch him by default. And finally, what do you think about WBG's case on LSB? Do you agree with me that it felt a bit forced, especially the part where he basically flat out accused LSB of being a SK? | ||
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What do you think about chaoser mentioning that he thinks he knows what GM is doing? Whatever GM is doing I'm pretty certain it's dumb as shit. I can't think of anything that looks like a plan based on how GM has been posting. | ||
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GMarshal is getting my vote. All he has given us is the idea of policy lynching the hydra, which includes sandroba who is one of the best players in this game. It's straight up beneficial to scum to get him killed off. In addition, GMarshal has stated outside games that he always suggests a Chezinu policy lynch regardless of his alignment. The fact that he brought it up here without actually pushing it looks very much like him bringing it up because he knows we expect him to. That's what I meant when I asked GM the question he hasn't responded to yet earlier. I don't even care if GM is right or wrong about the hydra because that's subjective (is he harder to read? are hydras better for town or scum?), the problem I have is that he doesn't offer us anything beyond that, and in a game of veterans only I'd expect us to do better than to policy lynch something on day one. All in all, I see no town reasons for playing the way GM is playing right now. Look to Cosmic Horror if you want to see how I'd expect a town GM to play on day 1. ##Vote GMarshal | ||
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On December 21 2011 19:44 VisceraEyes wrote: Palmar, what happened to your L suspicion? Gone with the wind? I can only vote one person per day. | ||
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On December 21 2011 19:44 VisceraEyes wrote: Can you guys clue me in to what you consider to be 'worth something'? Because you call everyone worthless, and I'm failing to see how that's any better than any of them giving a whole list of null reads. Most everyone you guys have mentioned has said who they find suspicious, and I'm just not seeing why you're calling these people worthless. I'll try to be nice but you're starting to annoy me VE. GM's posts are completely worthless, the reason is that nothing he has posted furthers our goals of finding mafia. Here's his best attempt at provoking/scumhunting in the thread: On December 20 2011 21:39 GMarshal wrote: A hydra is an account shared by two players, in this case SamuelLJackson shared by Curu and Sandroba. They are, of course the ideal target for a day one lynch! As they have the issue of being extremely difficult to read, because of the two heads. ##Vote: SamuelLJackson Also, as much as I love Chezinu, is anyone up for either policy lynching him or teaching me how the hell you get a grasp on his alignment? I enjoy his insanity, but its hardly conducive to figuring out his alignment. This is useless for a town point of view, the possible goal of this is to either get the hydra lynched (which he does a stunningly bad job at), or to provoke a reaction (which won't work because there is no actual case, just a policy, you can't argue with dumb policies). So, this post does nothing to further our goals. On December 21 2011 01:59 GMarshal wrote: Or we could just ignore roles and work on analysis, since in a half flip setup with completely unknown mechanics its going to be hard to sort out truth from lies. Funny, coming from the man with the least amount of effort put into the thread. Another worthless post. Sadly, GM isn't the only person posting like that. Read BC's only post in the game here: On December 21 2011 13:15 BloodyC0bbler wrote: OK, this game is seriously wtf balls at the moment. To state a few things after my quick read through the thread. Bum and chez regardless of alignment have actively helped people regardless of what people may or may not believe. Their posts illustrate what I am saying. If you cannot find it now it will become apparent later. As for the general play of this game. It is responsibility mafia. This should just mean Ver has made a game that is designed to stop blatant asshattery. Playing badly will get punished is the general take. Now one point of this game that has me instantly glued to is the whole idea of RNG day 1 lynch. L is saying its anti town to base an initial lynch off it while palmar believes it is pro town. Guess what? L is right, Palmar is wrong. RNG the person who is lynched gives no real onus to the player or players responsible for the name being brought up and then lynched. In a game with a no flip on role mechanic will also not let us glean information about the games setup. Since the advantage of discussing lynch choices day 1 is forcing people to take a stand via analysis not luck. If you analyze player x and they flip town you look slightly bad. If the logic used was poor then information was garnered on the accuser. If you RNG a day 1 lynch it is a crap shot and you learn near nothing from the lynch except the few peoples stance on RNG who started the process. Now as Palmar is pushing an obvious shitty play I will quote something of his. Step your game up, for your post you have a filter of terribly uninspired posts talking about very neutral topics. BC only brings up three points in this entire post. 1. He vaguely says Chez/Bum might be useful at some point in the game. I have no clue how he reached this conclusion and he doesn't offer any explanation. 2. He brings up RNG long after the discussion on that had died down. There is absolutely no reason to even talk about it, either town does it early in the day or ignores it. This is why I never push the idea beyond the first few hours of the game, because it hurts discussion if it gets shot down. 3. He tells me to stop making vague posts (how ironic). Do you think any of these points further our goals in finding mafia? Do you think that because of this post we are more likely to hit scum today? I don't think so. Thus this post is worthless. | ||
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On December 21 2011 22:44 VisceraEyes wrote: @Palmar Why don't you tell me? I wouldn't want to spoil the surprise for you. No, you seem to be assuming that my entire reason for wanting to lynch GMarshal is because he's a lurker, instead of the reasons I gave when I voted him. If that is the case, there is no difference between GM and for example Sheth, who has produced even less content. The problem is your theory doesn't actually account for this, because it ignores the possibility I might be trying to lynch people based on WHAT they post, not HOW MUCH they post. The only explanation I can give you is what's true, I want to lynch GM because he's pushing a policy lynch on a good player instead of actually trying to find mafia in the thread. To give you some perspective on this, here is GM's opening post as mafia in Closed Casket Mafia, where he suggests a Chezinu policy lynch: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=9966216 And here is his opening smurfing as ferryman in Cosmic Horror Mafia as town: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=11036081 No policy lynch, actual scumhunting based on events in the thread. But, according to your theory, all this is irrelevant because I am solely out to get him because I'm trying to get a lurker lynched, so you must now explain to me how me picking GM over someone like Sheth fits your theory. You cannot actually do that because I'm not scum. Since you cannot do that all that remains is to see if you're wrong because you're dumb, or if you're wrong because you're scum. I'm leaning dumb at the moment. | ||
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On December 21 2011 22:55 VisceraEyes wrote: Hell, I'd be thrilled if you gave a reason why you voted for GM vs your other scum reads BC and L. Anything really. Where did I say that BC was a scum read? Please stop putting words in my mouth. I think my exact words regarding BC were: On December 21 2011 18:53 Palmar wrote: Did you notice that BloodyC0bbler came into the thread and the one thing he focused on was the RNG idea, something that had been out of the discussion for a long while by then. I still believe it's a good idea if a town would roll with it from the start, but at the point his post is completely irrelevant to the discussion, to the point that this post is basically a huge pile of nothing. We know absolutely nothing about BC from that one post. This post is aimed at syllo, in an attempt to open a discussion with him, which should help town both scumhunt and get a read on both of us. As for L, I already explained I can only vote for one person today, and I think the case against GMarshal is stronger. In addition, I'm usually more comfortable lynching players I know because I know what to expect from them. | ||
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On December 21 2011 23:14 VisceraEyes wrote:There could be any number of reasons why scumPalmar would choose GM over Sheth. You provided one already - you have meta on GM and feel you could more easily lynch him over Sheth, a raw newbie in TL Mafia. Perhaps Sheth is your scumbuddy. I have no idea why you chose who you did, but my point is that you didn't say why. You gave 1 reason, that GM is pushing policy lynches for 4 posts almost at the beginning of the day, and later after I cased you claimed to have meta on GM that shows that he's scum. First off, I used Sheth as an example. GGQ has exactly one post in the thread, Foolishness has a few one-liners. It could be any of the lurkers. I picked GM because of what he posted, not because of how much he posted. Do you honestly think I picked GMarshal as an easy lynch target? On December 21 2011 23:14 VisceraEyes wrote: As for L, you have been slinging shit at L all day. You commented on GM, but felt the compulsion to agree with Foolishness that L needs to be lynched today before you decided to come play with us. And only now have made a case for GM, with your vote. Your point on lynching players you know is fair, but it begs the question: why haven't you pushed GM all day instead of L, a player you don't know? How do you propose we lynch mafia who doesn't post a lot? Do they just get an auto-pass in your book? I also want to point out that you're just wrong I've been slinging shit at L all day, I've made exactly 3 mentions of L this game, one here where I complained about the neutrality of his opening post: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=12838359 The second is the post where I agree with Foolishness that L would be a good kill, and then point out to you that all of L's posts are extremely careful and ambiguous, and the third is me asking syllo what he thinks about L's posting this game. I wouldn't exactly call that slinging shit. Not that I'd actually be fine with lynching L since his posting is still terrible, but I see less scum motivation for posting what he has posted, than I see in GM's posts, thus the case on GM is stronger and that's the one I'm focusing on now. I cannot actually do much about GM when he doesn't post in the thread. Immediately after he suggested this policy lynch, I posted this question towards him: On December 20 2011 22:18 Palmar wrote: Why is all you have to offer policy lynches GMarshal? Are you playing to your meta of suggesting a Chezinu policy lynch every game? Which he never answered, and hasn't actually posted anything since. Did you want me to ask it repeatedly? I'm not sure what you're expecting of me here. Just assume for a minute that GM is scum, how do you expect us to lynch him if we're disallowed to go after him because he lurks? You're defending a scum candidate based on the fact that he's not posting. Even you should see what's wrong with that. What do you think about GM now, ignore my alignment for a second, go read his posts and what they mean, and try to figure out for yourself what his alignment is. Think about what motivation he may have for posting what he's posted. Do you read those posts and conclude he must be town? null? I really, really doubt it. Of course the defense is good, I'm not scum, so it must be good by definition because it's true. | ||
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I even stated that GM has said he'd push for a chezinu policy lynch regardless of his alignment. However, that shouldn't mean he gets a free pass because of it. The case is what I wrote in the post where I voted him, actually, instead of reading my case, read his posts. | ||
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[QUOTE]On December 21 2011 22:56 Palmar wrote: [QUOTE]On December 21 2011 22:44 VisceraEyes wrote: he's pushing a policy lynch on a good player instead of actually trying to find mafia in the thread[/QUOTE] Dear diary, My eyes initially showed me the color of red when I at the palm... I though the pain that I was receiving came for the hand and the only way to stop the pain from spreading was to cut it off.. but then my heart started to tell me a different story and my eyes began to doubt what it had seen. Could it be that the palm really cares about me and that it is just in pain because of outside sources? I believe the palm is on my side... to remove it... I'm not sure if I can do anymore... as long as it is on my side and is not a cancer.. oh my heart... you know are now watering my eyes to clear my vision... My heart is so touched by the palm... I now understand how some can read palms... through the heart and not the eyes does one receive its signals.. Oh how I can't stop but continue to clear my vision with water... How much my heart wants to believe that it is true... my eyes my look again once the water has past... Take courage heart...[/QUOTE] The good player is Sandroba, not you. | ||
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@Jackal58: In theory this town is less dumb than the average TL town... although I'm starting to doubt that now. I'm trying to get GM lynched. How do you like that idea? | ||
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On December 22 2011 01:58 GMarshal wrote: So, I'm not even caught up with the thread at this point, (I'm on like page 16), I just wanted to say that I've been occupied with other things and haven't had a chance to really do anything yet. I'll be trying to give the town something to work with when I get out of work in about 4 hours. Until then I have spreadsheets to sort and other such lovely joys. Sorry people, I hate to lurk, I'll do my best to make it up to you guys when I get back, but yesterday I was incredibly busy. Can you at least stop long enough to tell us if you actually intend to continue pushing a policy lynch on sandroba/curu? | ||
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I've played 25 games I think now on this site, 10 of those had mafia lynched on day one. That's 60% chance of a town lynch on day one, not 98%. | ||
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SNMMII - Mafia Goon - Mafia Wins RTM - Vanilla Town - Town Wins WaW2 - Brazilian Conspirator - Mafia/Conspirator Wins Merc Mini 2 - Juliet - Town wins BC's AA - Joker - Batman/Town wins EHM - Citizen - Town Wins SHM - Vanilla Town - Town Wins Mini Mafia x - Vanilla Town - Mafia Wins XLV - Red Pyro - Mafia Wins PYP:I - Ace - Town Wins Town Lynches: XLIV - Vanilla Town - Mafia Wins LOTR - Gollum - Gollum/Town Wins XLVII - Vanilla Town - Draw Steamship - Records Cop - Mafia Wins SMG - Mafia Goon - Mafia Wins Student - Vanilla Town - Town Wins XLVIII - Floridian - Mafia Wins RM - Vanilla Town - Town Wins CHM - Doctor - Eldrict Abomination Wins Personality - Flamewheel - Mafia Wins SNMMV - Mafia Goon - Mafia Wins PTP2 - Mafia Traitor - Town Wins CCM - Virgin - Mafia Wins PTP - Bro of Destiny - Town Wins SNMMIII - Vanilla Town - Mafia Wins ##Unvote GMarshal ##Vote L You just fucked up bro. | ||
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It's irrelevant to the game. If you're talking about the list, it's simply all the games I've played from my profile, sorted depending on what got lynched on day one. The format is: Game name - My role - Win faction. | ||
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He just voted me because I "lied" about day 1 lynch ratios, which is irrelevant to the game. Him voting me for that is however not irrelevant to the game. I agree on VisceraEyes being town, that's why I actually spent all that energy defending me. I don't see what his alignment has anything to do with what L just did? | ||
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In your text L even concludes I'm probably not mafia. Again, what has his read on VE to do with anything? What the fuck? | ||
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On December 22 2011 05:02 Foolishness wrote: Just forget it, we're wasting each others' time. No, now you explain why you don't want to vote for L based on this. | ||
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On December 22 2011 04:09 L wrote: That's entirely not the case in my experience, nor is it the case on mafiascum. Mafiascum has roughly an 80% VT D1 lynch rate, a 10% Goon D1 lynch rate, and a 10%blue lynch rate. Oddly enough, the prevalence of D1 goon lynches is often a planned gambit to protect the roleblocker and end the game that way. Given the 13/3 setup, given a random distribution of hits you'd assume that mafia would be killed approximately 20% of the time on day 1. That isn't the case. Mafia have easy outs on D1 which means barring any catastrophic play, their deaths are planned if they occur on D1. I actually just looked at your post history ordered by threads and checked your last 7-8 games back until couples therapy. A single game had a mafia D1 lynched. Mafia used it as a gambit in a small format. Which means either you're lying, or the 17-18 games before that had a 60% mafia D1 lynch rate despite your games fitting perfectly into the standard MS pattern of play. As far as D1 lynches go, I'm pretty down with going after a confirmed liar. ##Vote: Palmar But seriously, I need to go do work. Later. Sure, I was the asshole who started the argument, but that doesn't matter. I just told L he was wrong about the success rates, at least from my experience. If I'm wrong or right doesn't however actually matter to the game at hand. If I said "Town always lynches mafia on day 1" I'm obviously lying, but that doesn't make me scum, and L knows this. Now, I happened to be telling the truth this time, as I proved, but really, that's irrelevant. What's important is that L is willing to lynch me based on a comment that doesn't affect the game we're playing, on some Lynch all Liars policy. There is no reason a townie would ever do what L did, and the simple explanation is that he must be scum. Like his only possible defense is that the idea is SO dumb that he wouldn't do it as scum, but I've been told L is good at this game. He saw a possible lynch and went for it. | ||
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Now I'm getting you hanged. | ||
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On December 22 2011 05:36 L wrote: RE: Irrelevance. It isn't irrelevant. Assume day 2 rolls around and you state "town always lynches mafia on day 1" in support of re-lynching after day 1 passed with a no-lynch verdict, when the reality is that town very RARELY lynches mafia on day 1. Does that statement seem just as innocuous now if the context implies that you're serious and have a motive behind the statement? No. This has been pretty much your only argument thusfar against me and it conceeds the point that there was a lie. So what's the motive and context behind this statement? I posted a large piece of analysis and you replied with a dismissive chaff post with a lie inside of it. The motive was to discredit my statement while not opening yourself to critique. The context is a slow thread and a near-bottom page position. If that's the case then Syllogism or Mr. Wiggles would be likely mafia buddies; post burying is a pretty standard way to avoid a piece of analysis which fucks your team without drawing attention to it. The alternative is that you're horrendous at this game and make anti-town posts, but are somehow lucky that this game's prevalence of pew pew pistols makes anti-town play somewhat less terrible on an individual level. (odd, that) I don't even understand what you're saying. Of course a statement like that is always irrelevant because it doesn't get anyone lynched. I guess if you allow no-lynches you can make the stretch that it's somewhat relevant, but it doesn't matter because I made no suggestion with the post. The fact you picked up on it as something of value to the game makes you mafia. | ||
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On December 22 2011 06:11 syllogism wrote: Palmar: L's vote is pretty ridiculous, but it seems strange from mafia point of view as well considering the thread was dead and there was no need to divert attention elsewhere. It seems more like a poorly thought of angry town reaction to your irrelevant quibble with his setup analysis. GM please no more setup analysis, who would you lynch? I'm more interested in who you want to lynch. | ||
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I'm going to read LSB's filter before I go to bed, I found WBG's initial case dumb/forced. That doesn't say anything about LSB's alignment though. | ||
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However, he claims to be overloaded with work, and I myself would never use an excuse like that if I was scum, because his lack of activity hurts his team if he's town, and doesn't really change much if he's scum, since lurking is a viable strategy. So I'm not thrilled with the idea of lynching him. It's kind of shitty to do that as scum. | ||
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Whenever people revert to using real life excuses for not contributing I tend to give them the benefit of the doubt to prove themselves another day, reason is that I'd like to be extended the same opportunity (which I was, for example in early experimental haunted mafia), if it ever comes up in games. I would have preferred he just straight up told us he didn't have time and sheeped his strongest townread instead of throwing out that case, but I'm not sure GM would ever do that. I won't directly oppose a lynch on him, if that's what you're asking, but I'd prefer lynching someone that is around to defend himself. Unless of course GM has the time to play now, in which case I'll stay up for an hour more to get a better read on him. | ||
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On December 22 2011 08:34 VisceraEyes wrote: Yeah, this is fucking damning. At no point does GM state that the reason he has been absent was "because he was overloaded at work"...yet this is the sole reason Palmar is uncomfortable lynching GM. Tell me I'm not imagining things guys, go read GM's filter and see if it says ANYTHING to the effect of "I didn't contribute yesterday because I was overloaded at work" Are you now complaining about me being nice? On December 22 2011 01:58 GMarshal wrote: So, I'm not even caught up with the thread at this point, (I'm on like page 16), I just wanted to say that I've been occupied with other things and haven't had a chance to really do anything yet. I'll be trying to give the town something to work with when I get out of work in about 4 hours. Until then I have spreadsheets to sort and other such lovely joys. Sorry people, I hate to lurk, I'll do my best to make it up to you guys when I get back, but yesterday I was incredibly busy. On December 22 2011 06:08 GMarshal wrote: Actually a more fair comparison would be my play in PTP where I simply was overwhelmed with work the first two days. It happens, but as town or scum, I'm generally active, so please, analyze my behavior if you will, but inactivity is always going to be do to matters beyond my control. I sign up to play mafia, not to sit on my ass and lurk, thats no fun for anyone. On December 22 2011 07:31 GMarshal wrote: I sped read to catch up, the only posts I skipped were Chezes. That said, it was not a careful read through, it was more of a "fuck, fuck, fuck, I should have done this yesterday" style read, I usually like to read the thread 3-4 times before saying anything. Plus you know (I think) that my reading comprehension goes out the window when I'm exhausted On December 22 2011 07:19 GMarshal wrote: I'm running on like 3 hours of sleep, cut me some slack. Reviewing, I apparently didn't read the case against LSB carefully enough the first time around. I'm not even gonna argue that, you're an asshole. | ||
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On December 22 2011 08:56 VisceraEyes wrote: But if he's busy, he's not being a dick, guy! If he's honestly just too busy to play, then he's not BEING a dick! Nope, because the benefits aren't equal for both factions. It is highly beneficial for scum to be away from the thread, and then just claim busy. It reduces discussion, reduces content that can be analysed on the scum, and it is a legit way of not getting lynched. It sucks for town to be away from the thread, and then claim busy. You might get lynched for non-contributions anyway, which is a free pass for scum on day one, and if you get by, you have still deprived town of your reads and contributions and you enter day 2 without having established your innocence. So yeah, I think it's a dick move to do it in general, but it's abusing an advantage if you're scum and preventing disaster if you're town. | ||
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You've been asking the same questions as VE. Except for when you asked me about your case, and in between these posts I'm re-reading LSB's filter as I said earlier. And yeah, I always give people the benefit of the doubt once. Worst case scenario we're hunting 3 scum tonight. I mean yeah, I once gave Mig the benefit of the doubt like this and got burned for it (XLIV). I'll bring this up postgame because technically it's irrelevant to the game. It's just my opinion. I already explained my initial feelings about your case here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=12848511 | ||
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I also very much disagree with sandroba/curu being any kind of scummy. I actually have a pretty strong town read on them, my second strongest town read after Syllo I guess. All he did was accuse them of bandwagoning a case. ##Unvote ##Vote LSB | ||
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On December 22 2011 09:42 Jackal58 wrote: Foolishness. Yes. | ||
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On December 22 2011 09:45 VisceraEyes wrote: Palmar if I may be so bold, what gives you a stronger town read from SLJ and Syllo than, say, me? They make sense in a townie way, and I agree with most or all of their reads. Especially Syllo's thoughts about the game. Just the few back and forth posts between me and him today especially reinforce my read, I doubt he would engage himself in those if he was scum. He'd probably dodge them or give more ambiguous answers. You don't make sense, but you don't make sense in a kind-of-a-townie way. I disagree with a fuckton of shit you do and say, so there is still a chance this is some new scum play. | ||
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Palmar
Iceland22632 Posts
GM is telling the truth about his role, that Ver is trying to punish the practice of comparing role PMs I think this is the case. That's the kinda thing I expected when Ver mentioned punishing bad play, I know he hates people trying to use roles or similar stuff that's irrelevant to the game as whole, and unlike most of the bullshit (triggers wtf?) that's been talked about in the thread so far, this is something that would punish bad play. GM's counterclaim makes no sense for scum, especially since LSB was probably about to be lynched anyway (don't fucking claim at 3 am european time...) | ||
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Palmar
Iceland22632 Posts
On December 22 2011 14:19 bumatlarge wrote: Well gee. LSB was telling the truth, so there is definitely some tricky host business with where GM got the iea to make that counter-claim. I don't think that alone shows his colors one way or another. What do you think this has got to do with the hosts? Why are you posting like an ass? | ||
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Palmar
Iceland22632 Posts
I agree with everything prplhzery said. | ||
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Palmar
Iceland22632 Posts
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Palmar
Iceland22632 Posts
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Palmar
Iceland22632 Posts
for example in chaoser's role, getting caught in a lie (as the role was in pyp:i) is terrible as both town and scum. However strawman arguing is only bad town play, it's actually good mafia play (I did figure out syllo and L on day 1), as we sidetracked the discussion quite seriously. I'm going to write a longer post, thanks ver for hosting. Most things this game I liked a lot. | ||
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Palmar
Iceland22632 Posts
I think playing the traitor in this setup is basically impossible. My plan was to argue about useless stuff and try to derail town, while making myself known to the mafia. Both L and Syllogism were very obvious scum on day 1, calling syllogism town repeatedly was actually my way of trying to communicate to the mafia team that I was the traitor. I later heard they still thought about shooting me night one, I guess for the strawman argument against L. But seriously, as traitor I HAVE to play scummy, because otherwise the mafia will kill me (they almost did), and yet I have to dodge the lynch, at least until day 2-3. I was going to claim cop this game (I was going to claim an innocent check on L), which would have given the mafia a perfect opportunity to get me into their team, as they knew there were no cops (I did not know this, just calling a scum town with a cop check should be good enough to tell them I'm traitor). However, with a ton of vigilantes in the game, one of them is bound to just shoot someone who is forced to play scummy, which is what happened. I seriously think the change to chaoser's role is really bad addition to the original Ace role. The thing about misrepresenting is just complete and utter bullshit, because it's punishing good scum play. I successfully created a shit side-track discussion and got punished for it. About the setup: Town has waaaayyyy too much KP. For those that don't get this, a vigilante shot is the best kill town has, assuming it's held by a competent player. In a normal 20 player game, that has maybe... one vigilante, town controls 2kp (lynch and shot), and mafia controls 2kp per cycle. In the end, the vigilante usually will have claimed (and gotten blocked) or died, and mafia probably ends up with more than half the kills in the game on their behalf In this game, Town killed like 10 players or something? That's simply way too high. I only managed to figure out two mafia on day one (I almost sent in a list with syllo, L, foolishness and prplhz), but it's still enough so a bunch of gung-ho vigilantes should've chosen their shots better. L was painfully obvious as scum. I mean, in a game that punishes bad play, it's weird town can get away with so many bad vigilante shots and still win the game. Vigilantes are stupidly powerful roles, and mafia can only counterclaim hits so long. I am a big fan of vigilantes because they put responsibility into the hands of town, but not to the point where they help town immensely. Don't get me wrong, I liked the game and I would certainly play again. however, I would just get rid of all the damn triggers, all they do is infuriate people, and most of them are very dependent on how people play. I would argue that normal setups punish bad play much more than this one, and certainly incognito's setup in XLVIII did much more to punish bad play than this setup. The only reason mafia came even close to winning was because town shots were really, really bad for the most part. Credit should go where it's due. Chaoser did a good job, prplhz, foolishness and meapak too. I don't like it when people forget there are two teams in mafia, one of those teams is mafia, and this game really fucked mafia over. With triggers that stopped mafia from playing well (sidetracking town, destroying discussion, spamming, and in general being dicks), and a bunch of vigilantes mafia would've had to start counterclaiming from day 2, it pushed mafia into a corner. I love the concept of creating a game specifically designed to counter bad play, I just don't think this was quite it. Some parts were cool (vigilantes, despite being op, are such a great role). Mafia fucked up, and if you read this and think "man Palmar thinks mafia didn't stand a chance", then you're misunderstanding me. I'm pointing out a slight flaw in an otherwise good game, mafia just had less chance to win than usual. | ||
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