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On December 08 2011 23:49 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 23:41 Palmar wrote:On December 08 2011 23:38 Toadesstern wrote:On December 08 2011 23:28 Palmar wrote:On December 08 2011 23:19 Mattchew wrote:On December 08 2011 23:12 Palmar wrote:On December 08 2011 22:59 Toadesstern wrote:On December 08 2011 22:50 Palmar wrote:On December 08 2011 22:42 Toadesstern wrote:
I still like my Erandorr case way more for the same reasons I already said yesterday. Those people on Annul right now are just not the most confirmed townies around to put it that way. That wagon formed so fast although it came to a halt that I just got a bad feeling of mafia influence here. I mean I got a case on erandorr and he's on Annul. That's not a good sign for me. Drazerk who's still a liar to me until he gets a confirmed save is not exactly the kind of guy I'd like on a bus as well.
Just look at erandorr for a second palmar. That guy did everything I expected, did a bigger post to protect himself and started one-liners right afterwards. I called him out for this behaviour, he made a bigger post in which he admits that his filter looks pretty damning but finishes along the lines "well but I'm a townie and I am really sorry I'm screwing town right now! I am willing to help you guys no matter what just shoot me a question". So people came along hugging him like a little baby that's told that it's not his fault and that everything's going to be okay.
Guess what? I asked him a simple question straight away after his post. He still hasn't answered, still somehow people think he's looking more town now with his most recent post because I guess people feel sorry for him. This is a cheap trick. The people on Annul's wagon have nothing to do with whether or not you should be supporting it. You should simply look at the strength of the case and determine for yourself if it's valid enough to earn him your vote. If you always consider who else shares your opinion you'll never get anywhere because nothing stops mafia from bussing teammates. I have looked at Errandor. There is nothing about his play that conclusively puts him down as scum. Sure, there are questionable things in there, but that's not a reason to lynch him today. I'm offering you a good opportunity to gauge his alignment by lynching annul. Lynching Errandor will not solve anything that's going on in town now. It's basically an excuse for lynching a scummy lurker. That was for day 1, today we're going after mafia. And I just gave you mafia. EBWOP: You're even contradicting yourself wtf. So you're saying when it's not okay to not lynch annul because of what other people think about him but it's okay to do so with erandorr after a lynch? Woah, are you intentionally being thick? There is no way to tell anything about the alignment of a person being bandwagoned or followed by looking at the people following them. This is because you cannot scumhunt against player a based on the actions of player b. Thus you cannot deduce annul's alignment by looking at who's voting for him. However, you can deduce a player's alignment by looking at whom he's voting for. Because in that scenario you're evaluating player a's alignment based on the actions of player a. To make it simple: Annul is not responsible for the people voting him, and I'm not responsible for the people sheeping my case (which everyone should be doing). Thus: The people on Annul's wagon have nothing to do with whether or not you should be supporting it.Errandor is however responsible for his own vote, and his own decision for following me, thus: I'm offering you a good opportunity to gauge his [Errandor's] alignment by lynching annul.If you fail to see the difference of people being responsible for their own actions, and people being responsible for other's actions, I'm not sure I can help you. Woah, are you intentionally being thick? He's saying that you cant say "don't look at who votes annul" followed by "watch how erandorr votes" Why not? If toad thinks Erandorr is mafia, and Erandorr votes for annul, that should have no impact on whether or not the case against annul is valid, because Erandorr isn't annul, they're seperate people. Toad could be wrong about Erandorr, I could be wrong about annul, and Erandorr could be bussing annul. You cannot read anything about whether or not the annul wagon is valid based on who is on it. However, while the fact Erandorr votes for annul says nothing about annul, it does say a lot about Erandorr, because... Erandorr is Erandorr. I don't get what's complicated about this. First of all, you just said it. Even if you're right and annul is mafia there's no new read on erandorr. The guy voted for annul after something like 4 votes were on him after an incredible fast time? If you're right this could be a bus and this gives me 0 information about erandorr. How am I supposed to to gauge erandorrs alignment based on the flip? This is incredible wifom to the max. Erandorr could be a townie sheeping you if annul is red. (or he came to the same conclusion without telling us) Erandorr could be a townie sheeping you if annul is green. (or he came to the same conclusion without telling us) Erandorr could be a mafia bussing annul if annul is red. Erandorr could be a mafia getting a green-lynch if annul is green. That's when you apply the "it's not what people do, but how they do it, that should be looked at" rule. If you're town, please come back and re-read this entire thing because you're being so wrong and bad at the moment that if you somehow justify your arguments to yourself, you will never improve. okay give it a try, enlighten me and explain me where I'm wrong here becaue I can't see it. I'd say all 4 make sense because "how" erandorr was doing it was " ! Vote" and that's it. That's why I put sheeping in the top 2 ones instead of what I have in brackets. However the same thing could happen when bussing or trying to get a green-lynch because this is, again, wifom. I'm standing by my point that there's no informationgain on erandorr, at all.
Well, assuming annul died exactly now and flipped scum, I would say there is very much a bigger chance that Errandor is town. First of all, he voted to kill scum. Now I cannot rule out the chance of mafia bussing, but generally the obvious solution is the correct one. People who like to kill mafia are generally not mafia.
Then you apply the how. Notice that all through Erandorr's play this game he has decided to buddy pretty hard up to me and sheep my reasonings for things. He's not a recent convert to the cult of Palmar, he helped get my head off the chopping block on day 1 too. He without question joined my case on day 2, very early on before it was apparent annul was going to be a serious contender. I think the timing of his vote, and how he presented it is very unlikely for mafia to do.
So there, while you cannot conclude anything 100%, I just gave you an explanation of how Errandor voting annul, and annul flipping scum, should affect how we read Erandorr's gameplay.
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On December 08 2011 23:49 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 23:41 Palmar wrote:On December 08 2011 23:38 Toadesstern wrote:On December 08 2011 23:28 Palmar wrote:On December 08 2011 23:19 Mattchew wrote:On December 08 2011 23:12 Palmar wrote:On December 08 2011 22:59 Toadesstern wrote:On December 08 2011 22:50 Palmar wrote:On December 08 2011 22:42 Toadesstern wrote:
I still like my Erandorr case way more for the same reasons I already said yesterday. Those people on Annul right now are just not the most confirmed townies around to put it that way. That wagon formed so fast although it came to a halt that I just got a bad feeling of mafia influence here. I mean I got a case on erandorr and he's on Annul. That's not a good sign for me. Drazerk who's still a liar to me until he gets a confirmed save is not exactly the kind of guy I'd like on a bus as well.
Just look at erandorr for a second palmar. That guy did everything I expected, did a bigger post to protect himself and started one-liners right afterwards. I called him out for this behaviour, he made a bigger post in which he admits that his filter looks pretty damning but finishes along the lines "well but I'm a townie and I am really sorry I'm screwing town right now! I am willing to help you guys no matter what just shoot me a question". So people came along hugging him like a little baby that's told that it's not his fault and that everything's going to be okay.
Guess what? I asked him a simple question straight away after his post. He still hasn't answered, still somehow people think he's looking more town now with his most recent post because I guess people feel sorry for him. This is a cheap trick. The people on Annul's wagon have nothing to do with whether or not you should be supporting it. You should simply look at the strength of the case and determine for yourself if it's valid enough to earn him your vote. If you always consider who else shares your opinion you'll never get anywhere because nothing stops mafia from bussing teammates. I have looked at Errandor. There is nothing about his play that conclusively puts him down as scum. Sure, there are questionable things in there, but that's not a reason to lynch him today. I'm offering you a good opportunity to gauge his alignment by lynching annul. Lynching Errandor will not solve anything that's going on in town now. It's basically an excuse for lynching a scummy lurker. That was for day 1, today we're going after mafia. And I just gave you mafia. EBWOP: You're even contradicting yourself wtf. So you're saying when it's not okay to not lynch annul because of what other people think about him but it's okay to do so with erandorr after a lynch? Woah, are you intentionally being thick? There is no way to tell anything about the alignment of a person being bandwagoned or followed by looking at the people following them. This is because you cannot scumhunt against player a based on the actions of player b. Thus you cannot deduce annul's alignment by looking at who's voting for him. However, you can deduce a player's alignment by looking at whom he's voting for. Because in that scenario you're evaluating player a's alignment based on the actions of player a. To make it simple: Annul is not responsible for the people voting him, and I'm not responsible for the people sheeping my case (which everyone should be doing). Thus: The people on Annul's wagon have nothing to do with whether or not you should be supporting it.Errandor is however responsible for his own vote, and his own decision for following me, thus: I'm offering you a good opportunity to gauge his [Errandor's] alignment by lynching annul.If you fail to see the difference of people being responsible for their own actions, and people being responsible for other's actions, I'm not sure I can help you. Woah, are you intentionally being thick? He's saying that you cant say "don't look at who votes annul" followed by "watch how erandorr votes" Why not? If toad thinks Erandorr is mafia, and Erandorr votes for annul, that should have no impact on whether or not the case against annul is valid, because Erandorr isn't annul, they're seperate people. Toad could be wrong about Erandorr, I could be wrong about annul, and Erandorr could be bussing annul. You cannot read anything about whether or not the annul wagon is valid based on who is on it. However, while the fact Erandorr votes for annul says nothing about annul, it does say a lot about Erandorr, because... Erandorr is Erandorr. I don't get what's complicated about this. First of all, you just said it. Even if you're right and annul is mafia there's no new read on erandorr. The guy voted for annul after something like 4 votes were on him after an incredible fast time? If you're right this could be a bus and this gives me 0 information about erandorr. How am I supposed to to gauge erandorrs alignment based on the flip? This is incredible wifom to the max. Erandorr could be a townie sheeping you if annul is red. (or he came to the same conclusion without telling us) Erandorr could be a townie sheeping you if annul is green. (or he came to the same conclusion without telling us) Erandorr could be a mafia bussing annul if annul is red. Erandorr could be a mafia getting a green-lynch if annul is green. That's when you apply the "it's not what people do, but how they do it, that should be looked at" rule. If you're town, please come back and re-read this entire thing because you're being so wrong and bad at the moment that if you somehow justify your arguments to yourself, you will never improve. okay give it a try, enlighten me and explain me where I'm wrong here becaue I can't see it. I'd say all 4 make sense because "how" erandorr was doing it was " ! Vote" and that's it. That's why I put sheeping in the top 2 ones instead of what I have in brackets. However the same thing could happen when bussing or trying to get a green-lynch because this is, again, wifom. I'm standing by my point that there's no informationgain on erandorr, at all.
I didn't try to claim town credit for that, you are obviously correct that it says nothing about my alignment. I'm not trying to defend my alignment here, I'm defending my case. If I did somewhere directly claim that somehow Soap flipping green made me less likely to be scum, please point that out to me.
But annul's actions around that speak out about his alignment.
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On December 08 2011 23:55 Mattchew wrote:
Palmar, would you go Lynch for Lynch with Annul. If he flips town you get lynched next?
Yes.
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On December 08 2011 23:59 Mattchew wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 23:55 Palmar wrote:On December 08 2011 23:55 Mattchew wrote:
Palmar, would you go Lynch for Lynch with Annul. If he flips town you get lynched next? Yes. you realize last time you did this... ace flipped town and you backed out
Of course, I'm not allowed to play against my win condition per the rules.
It's up to the town to uphold the deal, not me.
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Jackal58: Can you please help me beat sense into this town.
I'll gladly help you lynch Radfield later.
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Mattchew is actually arguing that this would be a terrible idea, so i think he simply wanted to gauge my reactions.
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On December 09 2011 00:16 Mattchew wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 00:16 Palmar wrote:
Mattchew is actually arguing that this would be a terrible idea, so i think he simply wanted to gauge my reactions. I actually wanted annul's reaction. I knew you would say yes lol
haha
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On December 09 2011 00:14 Jackal58 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 00:03 Palmar wrote:
Jackal58: Can you please help me beat sense into this town.
I'll gladly help you lynch Radfield later. I can't really. I don't fully agree with your case on Annul nor do I fully believe you are town. I will say I think both of you are horrible lynch targets for today. If you're really town let's not wait til later on Rad.
If you present a strong enough case and can convince people to kill radfield, I don't think I would oppose killing him today. My preferable target remains annul though.
We need 4 more people voting for Annul to get him killed, I think. Although I'm not sure exactly how my extra vote works in that regard.
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On December 09 2011 00:26 redFF wrote:
##Unvote
##Vote Palmar
the slowness of this wagon and the amount of protest from people like prplhz and his awful case against annul is enough.
Explain where the case is awful.
And would you be more comfortable voting annul if the wagon was faster? I'm asking because normally I hear people throw around ideas that fast-building wagons are scummy, but now you say slow building wagons are scummy?
Say, what rate would you prefer the wagon to get going at?
Or did you just throw that in there to justify your vote on me?
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On December 09 2011 00:41 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 00:35 Palmar wrote:On December 09 2011 00:26 redFF wrote:
##Unvote
##Vote Palmar
the slowness of this wagon and the amount of protest from people like prplhz and his awful case against annul is enough. Explain where the case is awful. And would you be more comfortable voting annul if the wagon was faster? I'm asking because normally I hear people throw around ideas that fast-building wagons are scummy, but now you say slow building wagons are scummy? Say, what rate would you prefer the wagon to get going at? Or did you just throw that in there to justify your vote on me? The problem is that it went incredible fast early on (the first 6 votes) and stopped there for 24 hours. Do you really think 4 people are sheeping you that hard to just vote like this without an explanation? Don't you think mafia would have hoped on that wagon sometimes yesterday no matter annuls alignment? If you're really right with your case I would not want to touch annul with a pole from here to whereever he lives. If you're wrong mafia would love to get on that wagon to see a townie dead without doing a thing (that is if you're town) and would have hoped on there not right from the beginning but surely sometime. Because I can't see one of that happening I'm saying that there's already 1 or 2 mafias who hopped on that wagon from the very beginning along with some sheeping townies.
As I explained earlier, looking at things like this has no value towards the case. Mafia could bandwagon a fellow mafia to get exactly this reaction from you. I say it once again, you cannot deduce anything about anyone by looking at the reactions of someone else, you should read the person, and only that person.
Read the case, agree or disagree with it. Ignore everything but exactly the content of the case. I'm more than fine with you pushing your own case, but at the end of the day, if you fail to secure enough support for your case, you should take a firm stance towards the leading two cases. If for some reason the annul lynch fails, I will myself be forced to look at alternative cases. However, at this rate I don't expect it to.
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On December 09 2011 00:46 hyshes wrote:
lol @sandroba.. so palmar's way isn't working to force this lynch through our throat.. so you come in out of the blue just to tell that palmars case is great? I for sure am not falling for that one.
No one is trying to get you to fall for anything. All I ask is you read the case presented. Actually, here's a trick for you: read the case twice, once assuming I'm right, and once assuming I'm wrong.
And tell me which feels better.
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On December 09 2011 00:55 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 00:49 Palmar wrote:On December 09 2011 00:41 Toadesstern wrote:On December 09 2011 00:35 Palmar wrote:On December 09 2011 00:26 redFF wrote:
##Unvote
##Vote Palmar
the slowness of this wagon and the amount of protest from people like prplhz and his awful case against annul is enough. Explain where the case is awful. And would you be more comfortable voting annul if the wagon was faster? I'm asking because normally I hear people throw around ideas that fast-building wagons are scummy, but now you say slow building wagons are scummy? Say, what rate would you prefer the wagon to get going at? Or did you just throw that in there to justify your vote on me? The problem is that it went incredible fast early on (the first 6 votes) and stopped there for 24 hours. Do you really think 4 people are sheeping you that hard to just vote like this without an explanation? Don't you think mafia would have hoped on that wagon sometimes yesterday no matter annuls alignment? If you're really right with your case I would not want to touch annul with a pole from here to whereever he lives. If you're wrong mafia would love to get on that wagon to see a townie dead without doing a thing (that is if you're town) and would have hoped on there not right from the beginning but surely sometime. Because I can't see one of that happening I'm saying that there's already 1 or 2 mafias who hopped on that wagon from the very beginning along with some sheeping townies. As I explained earlier, looking at things like this has no value towards the case. Mafia could bandwagon a fellow mafia to get exactly this reaction from you. I say it once again, you cannot deduce anything about anyone by looking at the reactions of someone else, you should read the person, and only that person. Read the case, agree or disagree with it. Ignore everything but exactly the content of the case. I'm more than fine with you pushing your own case, but at the end of the day, if you fail to secure enough support for your case, you should take a firm stance towards the leading two cases. If for some reason the annul lynch fails, I will myself be forced to look at alternative cases. However, at this rate I don't expect it to. First of all I kind of agree with what you said about looking into people rather that what other people think about people. I still think my wifom example is right and actually it kind of shows it. However I still think you're overconfident right now and you're makeing a bigger deal of it than it is in reality. But yeah at the end of the day I will look at what we got and decide where my vote is most useful. I hope you're doing the same. Secondly I do not think mafia would bus a mafia buddy just to make them me think what I said, but that's another box to open that's not going to help here :p
That's a fair opinion, because now you're using the correct mindset to disagree with me. If you genuinely think the case doesn't prove annul is scum, I don't have a problem with it. What I have a problem with is throwaway reasons like "this wagon is bad", because that doesn't address the situation at hand.
And yes, as I said, if this falls apart I am forced to look at other options.
However, remember that I am awesome and almost always right.
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1. I am the most townie player in the thread. Aside from myself I think mattchew, Refallen and a few others look pretty damn good. In addition, I think Jackal is town.
2. I am leaning town on him at the moment, the way he argues with an open mind seems pretty towny to me, but I wouldn't bet my life on it.
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I'm not impressed, if annul had any intention of making his announcement useful for anything other than saving his own neck, he'd have done it while the europeans were still wide awake.
Only reason I'm still up is I wanna see what he comes up with. I'm not going to be around to argue against it and he knows that.
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Do you not think that with a vigilante already flipped, and another jack proven, it is kinda weird we have another jack in town? That's a potential of 4 town kp (if you're town, which you aren't) on one day (with the lynch).
In addition, did you never suspect v7 after he claimed jack? I know I'd be at least skeptical of town having two such powerful roles. By the way, you have been pretty sure I'm mafia since day 1, why haven't you just shot me?
I call bullshit. You are not a jack of all trades. Explain all your powers and tell us which one you used tonight.
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On December 09 2011 10:08 kingjames01 wrote:Consider what I have to say first. Actually, I'll just post this tidbit. Show nested quote +On December 07 2011 18:33 Refallen wrote:
If that's the case, and annul is scum, what do you make of his saying mafia has 3kp? Where did the last kp go? Did someone get saved or did Mafia doublestack? I'm assuming that if you got saved as town you should declare it as I feel like that would be helpful for town. WAIT A MINUTE! DIDN'T YOU SAY THAT YOU'VE NEVER PLAYED BEFORE? Show nested quote +On December 04 2011 17:06 Refallen wrote:
Hello! First time at this, let's have a fun game! How do you know what a "Mafia doublestack" is? Did you discuss doublestacking with your teammates overnight??? MAFIA
Oh hi there mr. irrelevant.
Get out, we're discussing other shit. Maybe he read a guide, your point is completely invalid and useless.
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On December 09 2011 10:11 annul wrote:
i am not explaining anything to you beyond what i explained to the entire game just now.
day vig or mason are my two powers i can use right now, and whichever toad pics i will use on whoever he wants.
What is the benefit of holding information back?
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oh seriously guys.
No matter what happens, lynch annul.
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EPT
