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On August 02 2013 19:27 GolemMadness wrote:
Why do people still go RoA instead of Seraph's on Singed? Is there really a time in the game when RoA is better?
Was this in a pro game or soloq?
I've played 50 odd games on singed this season and by far the best build for me was tear > rylais > AA. Tear is so ridiculously cost effective on him, and rylais is basically THE singed item. My build generally differs depending on game after that, but tear > rylais is a must for me.
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On August 03 2013 00:25 schmutttt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 19:27 GolemMadness wrote:
Why do people still go RoA instead of Seraph's on Singed? Is there really a time in the game when RoA is better? Was this in a pro game or soloq? I've played 50 odd games on singed this season and by far the best build for me was tear > rylais > AA. Tear is so ridiculously cost effective on him, and rylais is basically THE singed item. My build generally differs depending on game after that, but tear > rylais is a must for me.
Have you noticed a difference after the tear stacking nerf? I like tear first (usually open ward, pots, faerie charm) because it lets you basically keep q on for as much as you want in lane, but now i'm not sure if i should be rushing RoA instead since it takes that much longer to fill tear now. If my math is correct it takes ~25 minutes of continuous poison trail to stack tear fully and i'm scared of delaying the spike in power by so much.
i agree with rylais being core, after that liandry's is good but seems "win more," and defensive itemization is usually more necessary.
edit: maybe my math is wrong and it's 12.5 minutes of continuous trail to fill tear. that's easy then. why is math so hard?
edit2: yes, it's 12.5.
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yes. If you can win games as singed buying seraph rilay liandry (roa) then you either could have bought anything and win or you have a very strange teamcomp.
this reminds me of some general misunderstandinsg according to builds:
1. "I won with this build" =/= "this build is efficient"
2. "getting more offensive items" =/= "dealing more damage"
3. "getting item X item when ahead" =/= "item X is/is not costefficient"
to 1. this one is obv.
to 2. you can't deal damage if you are either dead or too afraid to deal it.
to 3. this has mostly to do with either build paths (huge/shitty parts), high total item cost, delaying core stats (you need at least X armor and Y hp to survive and deal some damage) but rewards you mostly with something like slot efficiency or snowballing your lane.
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I build tear in about 90 percent of my games but vs very heavy ranged auto attackers (think teemo, ect) I open dorans shield and then go for catalyst to be able to sustain better and take more damge in order to get farm
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vs teemo i advice getting ap around the time you get lvl 6. you can let him push and farm 2+ waves with ult on if you manage to engage on him. depends on the level teemo is playing. if he is good he will use flash to dodge your fling so you lose the trade.
ap is generally good early game to ult clear waves faster against poke champs because defense is only delaying your health getting into the danger zone, while ap makes you a threat in lane for gank assists and shortens the time you need to stay to clear.
tear openings on singed are only the best choice vs tanks. shen, malph, trundle and what have you can't kill you anyways, so stack a tear. roa is good when you have to be strong late, rilays is only good if you have a big mana source like tear or roa. after boots mb tear and your first big item you need to start armor stacking if you dont want to commit to splitpush solo farming for another 3k.
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Tear does take longer to stack now, but it's not such a big deal on Singed. I'll sometimes get thornmail before seraph's depending on the situation, then generally liandry's after those two.
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I don't really think thornmail is that great on singed unless there 2 adc or ad top/mid/Jung comp and even still ombeings ings alot more to the table by cutting down on the abilty to kite singed.
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Been having great success with singed. Been trying to play him vs tanky chars with out much wave clear. Start with flash pot ward and go into tear ryalis and go situational from there.
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On August 03 2013 16:04 jaybrundage wrote:
Been having great success with singed. Been trying to play him vs tanky chars with out much wave clear. Start with flash pot ward and go into tear ryalis and go situational from there.
Singed shits on most tanky champs top. The only thing he struggles against is generally ranged mages (Vlad swain ryze elise). Elise he can beat if he survives long enough but vlad and ryze scale so well that it doesn't matter that you are singed. Swains kit destroys singed so badly if I ever play that matchup I'd just proxy the whole laning phase as swain can't push at all.
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On August 03 2013 08:34 GolemMadness wrote:
Tear does take longer to stack now, but it's not such a big deal on Singed. I'll sometimes get thornmail before seraph's depending on the situation, then generally liandry's after those two.
Never get thornmail as a first armor item. Ever. If you need armor, randuin's->thornmail, or randuins->sunfire>thornmail.
Thornmail is a trap for lower level players who don't understand how EHP and thornmail's passive works.
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On August 03 2013 19:33 Amui wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 08:34 GolemMadness wrote:
Tear does take longer to stack now, but it's not such a big deal on Singed. I'll sometimes get thornmail before seraph's depending on the situation, then generally liandry's after those two. Never get thornmail as a first armor item. Ever. If you need armor, randuin's->thornmail, or randuins->sunfire>thornmail. Thornmail is a trap for lower level players who don't understand how EHP and thornmail's passive works.
How so? I already have lots of health from seraph's/liandry's and a slow from liandry's and w and thornmail is more effective against ADC's. I'd only really imagine getting randuins instead against someone like Vayne.
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On August 03 2013 21:13 GolemMadness wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 19:33 Amui wrote:On August 03 2013 08:34 GolemMadness wrote:
Tear does take longer to stack now, but it's not such a big deal on Singed. I'll sometimes get thornmail before seraph's depending on the situation, then generally liandry's after those two. Never get thornmail as a first armor item. Ever. If you need armor, randuin's->thornmail, or randuins->sunfire>thornmail. Thornmail is a trap for lower level players who don't understand how EHP and thornmail's passive works. How so? I already have lots of health from seraph's/liandry's and a slow from liandry's and w and thornmail is more effective against ADC's. I'd only really imagine getting randuins instead against someone like Vayne.
If u didn't think u need omens frozen heart prolly would be a better bet cuz of passive cdr and the mana for your passive. Thornmail is really just meant to counter ppl who trying playing champs like the new yi super squishy
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On August 03 2013 21:13 GolemMadness wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 19:33 Amui wrote:On August 03 2013 08:34 GolemMadness wrote:
Tear does take longer to stack now, but it's not such a big deal on Singed. I'll sometimes get thornmail before seraph's depending on the situation, then generally liandry's after those two. Never get thornmail as a first armor item. Ever. If you need armor, randuin's->thornmail, or randuins->sunfire>thornmail. Thornmail is a trap for lower level players who don't understand how EHP and thornmail's passive works. How so? I already have lots of health from seraph's/liandry's and a slow from liandry's and w and thornmail is more effective against ADC's. I'd only really imagine getting randuins instead against someone like Vayne.
ADC's don't do enough damage at that timing to warrant a thornmail, and randuin's is better than thornmail against adc, not to mention the health&passive vs other damage
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On August 04 2013 07:59 Amui wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 21:13 GolemMadness wrote:On August 03 2013 19:33 Amui wrote:On August 03 2013 08:34 GolemMadness wrote:
Tear does take longer to stack now, but it's not such a big deal on Singed. I'll sometimes get thornmail before seraph's depending on the situation, then generally liandry's after those two. Never get thornmail as a first armor item. Ever. If you need armor, randuin's->thornmail, or randuins->sunfire>thornmail. Thornmail is a trap for lower level players who don't understand how EHP and thornmail's passive works. How so? I already have lots of health from seraph's/liandry's and a slow from liandry's and w and thornmail is more effective against ADC's. I'd only really imagine getting randuins instead against someone like Vayne. ADC's don't do enough damage at that timing to warrant a thornmail, and randuin's is better than thornmail against adc, not to mention the health&passive vs other damage
They'll at least have one of bloodthirster or infinity edge, and how can they not do enough damage to warrant a thornmail but they do enough damage to warrant a randuin's? How is randuin's better against ADC's? 15% slower attack speed or 30% damage returned before taking armour into account? Thornmail is clearly better, unless it's a Vayne who does a bunch of her damage from w passive/BotRK.
As I said, you already have plenty of health from rylai's/seraph's, so paying for extra health isn't efficient, and you get 30 less armour. The passive of randuin's doesn't help against anything other than autos, so no idea what you mean there.
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On August 04 2013 06:55 IamPryda wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 21:13 GolemMadness wrote:On August 03 2013 19:33 Amui wrote:On August 03 2013 08:34 GolemMadness wrote:
Tear does take longer to stack now, but it's not such a big deal on Singed. I'll sometimes get thornmail before seraph's depending on the situation, then generally liandry's after those two. Never get thornmail as a first armor item. Ever. If you need armor, randuin's->thornmail, or randuins->sunfire>thornmail. Thornmail is a trap for lower level players who don't understand how EHP and thornmail's passive works. How so? I already have lots of health from seraph's/liandry's and a slow from liandry's and w and thornmail is more effective against ADC's. I'd only really imagine getting randuins instead against someone like Vayne. If u didn't think u need omens frozen heart prolly would be a better bet cuz of passive cdr and the mana for your passive. Thornmail is really just meant to counter ppl who trying playing champs like the new yi super squishy
CDR isn't an efficient stat on Singed since the majority of your damage comes from your Q and extra mana isn't helpful. 100 extra health and 12 extra ability power? 20% slower attack speed or returning nearly half the damage you receive after taking armour into account?
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On August 04 2013 13:00 GolemMadness wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2013 06:55 IamPryda wrote:On August 03 2013 21:13 GolemMadness wrote:On August 03 2013 19:33 Amui wrote:On August 03 2013 08:34 GolemMadness wrote:
Tear does take longer to stack now, but it's not such a big deal on Singed. I'll sometimes get thornmail before seraph's depending on the situation, then generally liandry's after those two. Never get thornmail as a first armor item. Ever. If you need armor, randuin's->thornmail, or randuins->sunfire>thornmail. Thornmail is a trap for lower level players who don't understand how EHP and thornmail's passive works. How so? I already have lots of health from seraph's/liandry's and a slow from liandry's and w and thornmail is more effective against ADC's. I'd only really imagine getting randuins instead against someone like Vayne. If u didn't think u need omens frozen heart prolly would be a better bet cuz of passive cdr and the mana for your passive. Thornmail is really just meant to counter ppl who trying playing champs like the new yi super squishy CDR isn't an efficient stat on Singed since the majority of your damage comes from your Q and extra mana isn't helpful. 100 extra health and 12 extra ability power? 20% slower attack speed or returning nearly half the damage you receive after taking armour into account?
Its situation as all things in lol are. Your forgetting the fact that the mana gives you HP the CDR gives you more dmg and more cc in fast up times for fling and as well for glue. Its 30% Dmg returned dont make it seem like its more then it is it. I think that both can be good they did buff Frozen heart as well so it costs less. For instance if I'm vs Vayne I would get rylias and then Randiuns and Frozen Heart. I would be fine with thorn tho against other adcs and if they have another AA based attacker like trynd. Its allllllll situational find what works best for you but I wouldn't underestimate Frozen Heart
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We are not serious about the cdr on singed thing right? Cdr gives you tons of late game utility with more goo and more flips.
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On August 04 2013 13:29 cLutZ wrote:
We are not serious about the cdr on singed thing right? Cdr gives you tons of late game utility with more goo and more flips.
Preach!
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On August 04 2013 13:15 jaybrundage wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2013 13:00 GolemMadness wrote:On August 04 2013 06:55 IamPryda wrote:On August 03 2013 21:13 GolemMadness wrote:On August 03 2013 19:33 Amui wrote:On August 03 2013 08:34 GolemMadness wrote:
Tear does take longer to stack now, but it's not such a big deal on Singed. I'll sometimes get thornmail before seraph's depending on the situation, then generally liandry's after those two. Never get thornmail as a first armor item. Ever. If you need armor, randuin's->thornmail, or randuins->sunfire>thornmail. Thornmail is a trap for lower level players who don't understand how EHP and thornmail's passive works. How so? I already have lots of health from seraph's/liandry's and a slow from liandry's and w and thornmail is more effective against ADC's. I'd only really imagine getting randuins instead against someone like Vayne. If u didn't think u need omens frozen heart prolly would be a better bet cuz of passive cdr and the mana for your passive. Thornmail is really just meant to counter ppl who trying playing champs like the new yi super squishy CDR isn't an efficient stat on Singed since the majority of your damage comes from your Q and extra mana isn't helpful. 100 extra health and 12 extra ability power? 20% slower attack speed or returning nearly half the damage you receive after taking armour into account? Its situation as all things in lol are. Your forgetting the fact that the mana gives you HP the CDR gives you more dmg and more cc in fast up times for fling and as well for glue. Its 30% Dmg returned dont make it seem like its more then it is it. I think that both can be good they did buff Frozen heart as well so it costs less. For instance if I'm vs Vayne I would get rylias and then Randiuns and Frozen Heart. I would be fine with thorn tho against other adcs and if they have another AA based attacker like trynd. Its allllllll situational find what works best for you but I wouldn't underestimate Frozen Heart
I'm forgetting the fact that mana gives you more HP? I literally just said that it only gives you extra health. I guess to be fair it can also potentially give you some extra shield strength for your seraph's active. In a 25 second fight (and when you're focusing their ADC, it won't last nearly that long), 20% CDR will give you one extra fling and one extra W. Thornmail will give you around the same amount of extra damage JUST against their ADC in under 5 seconds late game. Not to mention that thornmail is 700 gold cheaper, which allows you to get liandry's first.
I'm not saying that other items suck or anything, I'm just saying that thornmail is an extremely effective item on Singed and that saying that you should always get randuin's before thornmail is wrong.
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On August 04 2013 14:05 GolemMadness wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2013 13:15 jaybrundage wrote:On August 04 2013 13:00 GolemMadness wrote:On August 04 2013 06:55 IamPryda wrote:On August 03 2013 21:13 GolemMadness wrote:On August 03 2013 19:33 Amui wrote:On August 03 2013 08:34 GolemMadness wrote:
Tear does take longer to stack now, but it's not such a big deal on Singed. I'll sometimes get thornmail before seraph's depending on the situation, then generally liandry's after those two. Never get thornmail as a first armor item. Ever. If you need armor, randuin's->thornmail, or randuins->sunfire>thornmail. Thornmail is a trap for lower level players who don't understand how EHP and thornmail's passive works. How so? I already have lots of health from seraph's/liandry's and a slow from liandry's and w and thornmail is more effective against ADC's. I'd only really imagine getting randuins instead against someone like Vayne. If u didn't think u need omens frozen heart prolly would be a better bet cuz of passive cdr and the mana for your passive. Thornmail is really just meant to counter ppl who trying playing champs like the new yi super squishy CDR isn't an efficient stat on Singed since the majority of your damage comes from your Q and extra mana isn't helpful. 100 extra health and 12 extra ability power? 20% slower attack speed or returning nearly half the damage you receive after taking armour into account? Its situation as all things in lol are. Your forgetting the fact that the mana gives you HP the CDR gives you more dmg and more cc in fast up times for fling and as well for glue. Its 30% Dmg returned dont make it seem like its more then it is it. I think that both can be good they did buff Frozen heart as well so it costs less. For instance if I'm vs Vayne I would get rylias and then Randiuns and Frozen Heart. I would be fine with thorn tho against other adcs and if they have another AA based attacker like trynd. Its allllllll situational find what works best for you but I wouldn't underestimate Frozen Heart I'm forgetting the fact that mana gives you more HP? I literally just said that it only gives you extra health. I guess to be fair it can also potentially give you some extra shield strength for your seraph's active. In a 25 second fight (and when you're focusing their ADC, it won't last nearly that long), 20% CDR will give you one extra fling and one extra W. Thornmail will give you around the same amount of extra damage JUST against their ADC in under 5 seconds late game. Not to mention that thornmail is 700 gold cheaper, which allows you to get liandry's first. I'm not saying that other items suck or anything, I'm just saying that thornmail is an extremely effective item on Singed and that saying that you should always get randuin's before thornmail is wrong.
I don't always get liandrys tho. I only get it if i feel I can get away with being more dmg orientated and they have more tanky chars. I agree thats its effective on singed. I think alot of the confusion that erupted between you guys was the assumption that you were getting thornmail with out getting hp first but if you have rylias and liandrys I think thornmail is a fine item to transition into :o
Also if you can get full cdr on singed your flip goes from 10 cd to 6 thats a hell of a difference. Yes I know you said only 20 cdr but the more cdr you get the harder it scales.]
And I did miss that you mentioned his passive for mana opps 
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EPT
