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United States37500 Posts
Welcome to this patch's General Discussion thread for the League of Legends subforum. This thread is for discussion around League of Legends. Free feel to talk about anything LoL related here that does not already have its own thread.
Non-League of Legends discussion should go in the LiquidLegends Lounge.
Certain topics are blacklisted from LoL General Discussion and they include:- "Elo hell"
- The Tribunal
- Bans, either from TL.net or LoL
Additionally, the TL LoL Ten Commandments are available for you to reference if you have any questions about this subforum.
Use the LoL Strategy subforum if you have game or champion specific questions. Lastly, confine QQing and bragging to their respective threads.
There are no new champions this patch.
Patch 7.12: Live on June 14th, 2017
+ Show Spoiler [Previous GD Threads & Patch Notes] +
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Stoneplate + Locket + Cho'Gath = 2187642 damage shield?
Really like what they are doing with support items. Redemption, Censer and Athene's look like a pretty legit combo.
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i'm not so sure how i feel about rek'sai's changes right now.
Her new ult is kinda cool as an execute and all, I've found myself dodging some stuff with it in flashy ways already so that's cool i guess.
I hope these buffs don't push her over the edge, but i do think she's been really weak for a while
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I just hope we're back to buying Aegis -> Upgrade (locket/Bulwark) on the jungler so we go full circle.
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9 hours ? Neo, I am disappoint.
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New Zeke's is worse than old zeke's i think. It's so expensive for so little impact. by the time you get it, even going for it before redemption , you either are stomping or it's effect is just worse than spending less money for locket. I'd maybe pay 1500 for the current effect. but 2400 is real expensive. I know they are trying to force it into a support item by making you tag an ally, but if it worked with all allies it'd be buyable.
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On June 14 2017 22:46 PrinceXizor wrote: New Zeke's is worse than old zeke's i think. It's so expensive for so little impact. by the time you get it, even going for it before redemption , you either are stomping or it's effect is just worse than spending less money for locket. I'd maybe pay 1500 for the current effect. but 2400 is real expensive. I know they are trying to force it into a support item by making you tag an ally, but if it worked with all allies it'd be buyable.
depends on the adc I think if im reading it correctly.
If you have twitch for example this item is absolutely worth it
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Isn't the 50% bonus damage to allies like absolutely bonkers or am I reading it wrong?
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Well this patch definitely seems more geared towards supports having more fun.
Also rumble change seems more like a buff to me...
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On June 15 2017 00:10 Jek wrote: Isn't the 50% bonus damage to allies like absolutely bonkers or am I reading it wrong? 50% bonus damage on auto's over 2 seconds (so dealing more than 1 auto per 2 seconds reduces the effect since it doesnt stack) for one ally. if you stand exactly next to someone, It's about 225 radius, and costs 2400, more than locket, redemption etc. It only applies on ultimate, which reduces the number of champs its even useful on. it provides no HP.
it's just not worth getting. you could have redemption + cloth or locket + 2 control wards instead. both are more valuable item groupings than the effect, because the stats are just not very good for the support role, and the active is too restrictive for top. maaaybe a jungle tank?? but zac doesnt want the mana, sej uses her ult from too far away typically...
it's maybe best on alistar? but he's not exactly too strong right now.
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On June 15 2017 00:35 dsyxelic wrote: Well this patch definitely seems more geared towards supports having more fun.
Also rumble change seems more like a buff to me... it's not. supports havent had control over the game since redemption came out totally busted, and season 3 before that. it's just herding cats below diamond, and all laning at dia+.
In pro play, maybe. but we'll have to see. its probably more of the same.
No clue about rumble though. it seemed like they buffed his heat mechanic but made his spitter weaker early especially lvl 1.
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On June 15 2017 00:41 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2017 00:10 Jek wrote: Isn't the 50% bonus damage to allies like absolutely bonkers or am I reading it wrong? 50% bonus damage on auto's over 2 seconds (so dealing more than 1 auto per 2 seconds reduces the effect since it doesnt stack) for one ally. if you stand exactly next to someone, It's about 225 radius, and costs 2400, more than locket, redemption etc. It only applies on ultimate, which reduces the number of champs its even useful on. it provides no HP. it's just not worth getting. you could have redemption + cloth or locket + 2 control wards instead. both are more valuable item groupings than the effect, because the stats are just not very good for the support role, and the active is too restrictive for top. maaaybe a jungle tank?? but zac doesnt want the mana, sej uses her ult from too far away typically... it's maybe best on alistar? but he's not exactly too strong right now. Ah, thought it stacked.
Can champions like Elise constantly proc it?
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On June 15 2017 01:33 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2017 00:35 dsyxelic wrote: Well this patch definitely seems more geared towards supports having more fun.
Also rumble change seems more like a buff to me... it's not. supports havent had control over the game since redemption came out totally busted, and season 3 before that. it's just herding cats below diamond, and all laning at dia+. In pro play, maybe. but we'll have to see. its probably more of the same. No clue about rumble though. it seemed like they buffed his heat mechanic but made his spitter weaker early especially lvl 1.
Dunno, im not going to argue whether support is fun in general, but i just see supports getting more item choices and things that make them do crazier things for their team. For what its worth i found s3 support as vision slave meta fun. Its when i played sup the most and could singlehandedly win vision. I understand why other players didnt enjoy that though. Meanwhile locket duty back to some tank in top jg.
His spitters stronger, they just nerfed it vs minions which seems fine cause one of rumbles weaknesses is that he overpushes at times. Id much rather just have more dmg in general. Stronger shield and harpoon too. If anything I think the heat stuff was a nerf because he cant spam spells as much. its something good players can work around tho imo
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On June 15 2017 03:05 Jek wrote: Can champions like Elise constantly proc it? it has a 45 second CD on the item proc. But she can proc it whenever, though I imagine it'd be really inconvenient to proc it when you swap rather than when you are in range, since its so tiny, If it was twice as big i could see it maybe, since you could impact a fight more. but it might be too good on alistar then? I just dont see anyone wanting the item outside of novelty but alistar.
if it was at least one of cheaper, activatable on its own, bigger aoe, gave HP, Larger slow. It'd be worth getting. Even on alistar it feels just so lackluster.
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udyr can proc it on his pheonix stance so every 45 seconds (for 10 seconds lol)
seems really broken honestly good on any bruiser who likes to stick to targets but doesn't go in solo doesn't make sense on a elise who is a pansy squishy decent on tank supports but there are lots of great support items to compete
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all i know is that it'll look pretty cool with the rakan xayah duo and all their different attacks and effects
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On June 15 2017 05:47 Slayer91 wrote: udyr can proc it on his pheonix stance so every 45 seconds (for 10 seconds lol)
seems really broken honestly good on any bruiser who likes to stick to targets but doesn't go in solo doesn't make sense on a elise who is a pansy squishy decent on tank supports but there are lots of great support items to compete So basically Udyr can bind himself to a laner whenever he gank and get a free AoE slow and significant damage bonus? :O
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yep, untested as of yet he can't clear fast enough to skip the jungle item to get it though, so unless you're fed won't be too easy to use it in gank situations before that phase of the game has ended.
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I have basically no jungle experience but do phoenix Udyr really need anything but the mana regen from a partial jungle item to clear fast? This is considering when Hecarim was strong he would usually delay completed jungle item for the much more expensive Triforce, on the other hand I suppose you played Hecarim more greedy for blue buff due to his carry potential?
Considering how well Udyr scales from resists due to Turtle stance would delaying Cinderhulk really be that big of a deal? The CDR seems really good on him too, more mana looks sorta nice for stance spam?
edit: just tested in practice tool and can confirm Udyr is able to proc it with phoenix stance.
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I almost always go devourer instead of cinderhulk, udyr can still clear but having a champion with slow clear AND shit ganks isn't worth it for a faster zekes.
Udyr doesn't get W maxed that early either, and it's only realistically a few hundred extra hp, max HP is the best stat on him until probably 1.75->2k hp.
Cinderhulk gives udyr more AoE damage he doesn't really need so devourer helps him clear the big creeps and dragon faster and is in general more cost effective. The best thing about cinderhulk is just max HP being broken early game allowing you to tower dive and gank with much less risk. The bad thing about cinderhulk is having no damage to kill anyone on a champ who already has limited utility and mobility. This becomes less of a problem late game when ADCs take over and short stuns are actually really useful as nobody can survive for too long anyway. However devourer udyr has really insane damage at level 9 so it's not like it's bad early game either. Once you get devourer+some hp it's usually better than cinderhulk although going full tank with support items is a build that makes sense when your damage is not needed at all in the teamcomp, and stuff like RG/Knight's vow/locket is preferable.
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soloQ right now
User was warned for this post (image meme)
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pretty much the only reason I win as support, no idea what im doing but I can guarantee that our bot lane won't lose if im there
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Isnt there a winning bot lane every game?
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I just play Vayne support for the lategame
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I play ap """"supports"""" to pretend me being first on the damage chart means I'm not responsible for the loss
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I've been trying some sighstone on midlaner after my first item + boots because I just love to ward. Realistically how much do I gimp myself by delaying my build 800g? Would it be significantly better to do it after I get my 2nd item?
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would only be viable if mid laners started relying on actives again. Then you could get the upgraded sightstone.
As it is now its a waste of money, all they use is hourglass. made me realize why mid lane is so boring/consistent these days, all of their core items are just powerhouses that specialize in something but also do everything stat wise
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Where do you go to watch the NA challenger game. And what time do they air?
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I really thought honor was this patch
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On June 16 2017 05:04 Gahlo wrote: OTP wars started. We need a Team Meteor icon.
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what we need is a Taliyah icon ¬¬
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On June 16 2017 18:39 PrinceXizor wrote: We need a Team Meteor icon. That's when you pick Sepheroth(Yasuo).
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On June 16 2017 21:14 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2017 18:39 PrinceXizor wrote:On June 16 2017 05:04 Gahlo wrote: OTP wars started. We need a Team Meteor icon. That's when you pick Sepheroth(Yasuo). They'd probably just make team meteor a pairing of teemo and lee sin, so you have all the worst to play with one tricks in one event.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
Ardent Censer is getting ridiculous at this point. I have no idea why people hate building it so much but it's starting to get completely absurd. It's a great example of Riot balancing based on an item's perceived strength instead of its actual strength.
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you dont like getting 2v5'd by twitch with pix/ardent? you just dont understand the complexity and Riot Approved Gameplay that adc meta before worlds provides
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On June 17 2017 02:12 GrandInquisitor wrote: Ardent Censer is getting ridiculous at this point. I have no idea why people hate building it so much but it's starting to get completely absurd. It's a great example of Riot balancing based on an item's perceived strength instead of its actual strength. I was playing Janna on ARAM with a Twitch. Her shield was absolutely disgusting.
On the PBE, inc Riot Approved jungle meta shakeup.
Bami's Cinder Total cost lowered from 1100 to 900g. Combine Cost lowered from 700 to 500 Total health lowered from 280 to 200 Unique Passive - Immolate bonus damage to minions and monsters increased from 50% to 100%
Enchantment Runic Echos Mana restore lowered from 18% to 12%
Enchantment Cinderhulk Total cost lowered from 2625g to 2425g (due to Bami's price change) Health Lowered from 400 to 325 Bonus health increased from 15% to 20%
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might make nasus jungle ok in solo q again, changes to cinderhulk benefit him quite a bit. Sejuani probably back to meta, zac even more disgusting.
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I for one welcome our tanky jungle overlords.
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with tank jungle comes locket jungle so im hyped for the return of mandatory aegis on jungle.
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On June 17 2017 02:12 GrandInquisitor wrote: Ardent Censer is getting ridiculous at this point. I have no idea why people hate building it so much but it's starting to get completely absurd. It's a great example of Riot balancing based on an item's perceived strength instead of its actual strength. It has been broken beyond anything after they buffed it for no god damn reason. Apdo was ranting about it months ago and about how stupid korean (appearently they do in china) supports are for not getting it early. For some reason people have forgotten items beside Sightstone, Redemption and Locket exist.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
The fact that no one buys it in the pro scene is basically why you should never trust what pros build as evidence of whether an item is good or not.
On June 17 2017 02:15 VayneAuthority wrote: you dont like getting 2v5'd by twitch with pix/ardent? you just dont understand the complexity and Riot Approved Gameplay that adc meta before worlds provides I blame it on Reddit and Twitch meming about "ADC IN 2017 LUL" and posting videos where an ADC can't outduel a tank as proof that Riot needed to buff ADCs.
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They do build it, saw it a decent number of times on a karma or lulu.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
Do they? I went to Stage.GG and clicked on the most recent games. In the last eight matches this week (KT v SSG, VIT v MM, FNC v ROC, AFS v ROX, BBQ v EEW, SKT v MVP, LZ v ROX, JAG v KT) across 20 games it was built exactly once. Obviously you aren't going to build it on Blitzcrank, but there were quite a few Lulu/Karma/Rakan/etc. games that could have had it built.
I would not be surprised on the next patch if one of the dominant comps has a Nunu building Vow/Locket + a Lulu building Ardent/Redemption.
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The thing you have to remember with ardent censer is that
1: Need to pick a support who can use it 2: Most comps only benefit from it on the ADC anyway 3: You give up another strong midgame item (locket/redemption/mikaels vs ashe) to get it.
most supports can only proc it once meaning just on the adc. ADCs typically aren't that effective until they get 3 items + anyway. (Obviously twitch with ult and kog maw can do stuff earlier) Koreans love to snowball off early and midgame and redemption healing your top/jungle/mid laner who do most of the work in teamfights in early/midgame is really strong.
If you're looking to abuse ardent censer, sona can proc it on a whole team with 100% uptime so if you have people who can use it well in your team comp it's pretty broken.
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Also, most meta ADCs aren't there to hard carry at the moment. It's Cait (who likes it) + utility (meh).
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they didn't get buffed - the reason why they are meta is purely because ADCs aren't able to hard carry (except cait lel) kog is tried but teams seem to be able to handle him fairly well.
I wonder why though. Maybe just because utility ADCs allow you to snowball bot lane and first brick and catch people as well in midgame.
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I'd say Twitch can hard carry just fine.
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Twitch and kog people still use for that role, but the more high mobility champs that everyone used to play like lucian and ez seem to have disappeared completely
I suppose there's no point having extra mobility against big tanks.
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On June 17 2017 06:34 Slayer91 wrote: Twitch and kog people still use for that role, but the more high mobility champs that everyone used to play like lucian and ez seem to have disappeared completely
I suppose there's no point having extra mobility against big tanks. I dont know about that, when we were in tank meta, ez and lucian were doing pretty fine with their mobility. Are tanks even a thing now? Like Zac, Galio? who else? shen? I rarely see more than 1 tank per game lately and outside of Zac and Galio they dont even make so much impact like before, they are not bad by any means, but chams like champs, I dont shit my pants when I see tanks now
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Dunno, was just basing off worlds, thinking back I guess there wasn't necessarily 2 tanks per team in every game
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Anybody else thing Shockwave needs a CD or damage nerf?
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On June 17 2017 08:33 Gahlo wrote: Anybody else thing Shockwave needs a CD or damage nerf? Nope, when Ori is meta, the midlane is healthy.
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Actually I've always thought that Ori has too much damage for the utility she provides and the balancing part comes from the difficulty to hit her combos, which is not a proper source for balancing imo
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On June 17 2017 08:33 Gahlo wrote: Anybody else thing Shockwave needs a CD or damage nerf?
I'm waiting for Orianna nerfs for years now. She's a strong and boring champ with no real downsides. Also I can't stand Syndra vs Orianna anymore.
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On June 17 2017 08:46 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2017 08:33 Gahlo wrote: Anybody else thing Shockwave needs a CD or damage nerf? Nope, when Ori is meta, the midlane is healthy. I mean, ori is kind of always meta though. she's been played forever. She's the Lee sin of Mid lane. constantly meta since creation.
if she gets a nerf though it'd be something like a 50-100 speed nerf to her command attack ball movement. Make her have to predict better to hit her combos.
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On June 17 2017 03:00 Jek wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2017 02:12 GrandInquisitor wrote: Ardent Censer is getting ridiculous at this point. I have no idea why people hate building it so much but it's starting to get completely absurd. It's a great example of Riot balancing based on an item's perceived strength instead of its actual strength. It has been broken beyond anything after they buffed it for no god damn reason. Apdo was ranting about it months ago and about how stupid korean (appearently they do in china) supports are for not getting it early. For some reason people have forgotten items beside Sightstone, Redemption and Locket exist. What if people just understand that the aoe heal/shield and not getting oneshot by literally anything has it's perks too?
Also if you go censer on rakan you are retarded.
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only thing ori needs is a reduction on her AA damage, shes way too oppressive against melee laners early. Besides that she's pretty balanced, its hard to be consistent with her for an entire game but you can also single handedly win a teamfight. She's exactly the kind of exciting unreliable champion Rito wants for comp play
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nerfing orianna ball speed would make her suck insanely hard against anything with mobility and the oppressiveness comes from just putting a ball far up in midlane and QWing anyone close. (so the ball barely moves and it's basically impossible to react)
nerfing her autos would affect only her lane phase against melees and wouldn't change too much
nerfing her R damage would be an OK change I suppose.
A good nerf IMO would be nerfing the range the ball can be far away from her before it comes back. At the moment it's slightly too safe landing combos and R combos from distance.
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On June 17 2017 20:49 Prog wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2017 08:33 Gahlo wrote: Anybody else thing Shockwave needs a CD or damage nerf? I'm waiting for Orianna nerfs for years now. She's a strong and boring champ with no real downsides. Also I can't stand Syndra vs Orianna anymore. Isn't that more of a Syndra issue though?
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On June 17 2017 21:27 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2017 08:46 cLutZ wrote:On June 17 2017 08:33 Gahlo wrote: Anybody else thing Shockwave needs a CD or damage nerf? Nope, when Ori is meta, the midlane is healthy. I mean, ori is kind of always meta though. she's been played forever. She's the Lee sin of Mid lane. constantly meta since creation. if she gets a nerf though it'd be something like a 50-100 speed nerf to her command attack ball movement. Make her have to predict better to hit her combos. That would be the worst possible Nerf. She is already weak to movement speed and dashes. The real reason people are sick of Ori is because Riot foolishly killed Lulu mid and Karma, honestly, is a very poorly designed champion. This has left one real utility mid.
Also, I think they reduced her AA before because people said she was bullying melee too hard. I don't support that if its on the first auto (her AA last hitting shouldn't be affected), if you make Windup have more ticks to ramp up to max, that would work, IMO.
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On June 18 2017 03:28 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2017 21:27 PrinceXizor wrote:On June 17 2017 08:46 cLutZ wrote:On June 17 2017 08:33 Gahlo wrote: Anybody else thing Shockwave needs a CD or damage nerf? Nope, when Ori is meta, the midlane is healthy. I mean, ori is kind of always meta though. she's been played forever. She's the Lee sin of Mid lane. constantly meta since creation. if she gets a nerf though it'd be something like a 50-100 speed nerf to her command attack ball movement. Make her have to predict better to hit her combos. That would be the worst possible Nerf. She is already weak to movement speed and dashes. The real reason people are sick of Ori is because Riot foolishly killed Lulu mid and Karma, honestly, is a very poorly designed champion. This has left one real utility mid. Also, I think they reduced her AA before because people said she was bullying melee too hard. I don't support that if its on the first auto (her AA last hitting shouldn't be affected), if you make Windup have more ticks to ramp up to max, that would work, IMO. No, I'm sick of Orianna because she can 2 shot squishies in AOE after 3 items while having good utility. Buff Karma and Lulu and they'll have good utility, but nowhere near the damage of Orianna.
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On June 18 2017 03:28 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2017 21:27 PrinceXizor wrote:On June 17 2017 08:46 cLutZ wrote:On June 17 2017 08:33 Gahlo wrote: Anybody else thing Shockwave needs a CD or damage nerf? Nope, when Ori is meta, the midlane is healthy. I mean, ori is kind of always meta though. she's been played forever. She's the Lee sin of Mid lane. constantly meta since creation. if she gets a nerf though it'd be something like a 50-100 speed nerf to her command attack ball movement. Make her have to predict better to hit her combos. That would be the worst possible Nerf. She is already weak to movement speed and dashes. The real reason people are sick of Ori is because Riot foolishly killed Lulu mid and Karma, honestly, is a very poorly designed champion. This has left one real utility mid. Also, I think they reduced her AA before because people said she was bullying melee too hard. I don't support that if its on the first auto (her AA last hitting shouldn't be affected), if you make Windup have more ticks to ramp up to max, that would work, IMO. I mean.. i'm not exactly hiding my desire for a return to Season 3 gameplay. But i see nothing wrong with exaggerating strengths and weaknesses. it makes more interesting characters than just flattening everything out.
As an example of exaggerating strengths and weakness I'd prefer if all shields got the locket treatment, where they decayed over their duration, even if they get a nudge up in values by 10-20%, rather than have them just be king with little downside.
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On June 18 2017 04:41 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2017 03:28 cLutZ wrote:On June 17 2017 21:27 PrinceXizor wrote:On June 17 2017 08:46 cLutZ wrote:On June 17 2017 08:33 Gahlo wrote: Anybody else thing Shockwave needs a CD or damage nerf? Nope, when Ori is meta, the midlane is healthy. I mean, ori is kind of always meta though. she's been played forever. She's the Lee sin of Mid lane. constantly meta since creation. if she gets a nerf though it'd be something like a 50-100 speed nerf to her command attack ball movement. Make her have to predict better to hit her combos. That would be the worst possible Nerf. She is already weak to movement speed and dashes. The real reason people are sick of Ori is because Riot foolishly killed Lulu mid and Karma, honestly, is a very poorly designed champion. This has left one real utility mid. Also, I think they reduced her AA before because people said she was bullying melee too hard. I don't support that if its on the first auto (her AA last hitting shouldn't be affected), if you make Windup have more ticks to ramp up to max, that would work, IMO. No, I'm sick of Orianna because she can 2 shot squishies in AOE after 3 items while having good utility. Buff Karma and Lulu and they'll have good utility, but nowhere near the damage of Orianna.
But nobody wants to watch Karma or Lulu mid. Whenever they're meta people complain about boring gameplay not only because these champions aren't very flashy but also because they happen to be popular when superboring 'protect the adc' comps become dominant.
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On June 18 2017 05:48 Sent. wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2017 04:41 Gahlo wrote:On June 18 2017 03:28 cLutZ wrote:On June 17 2017 21:27 PrinceXizor wrote:On June 17 2017 08:46 cLutZ wrote:On June 17 2017 08:33 Gahlo wrote: Anybody else thing Shockwave needs a CD or damage nerf? Nope, when Ori is meta, the midlane is healthy. I mean, ori is kind of always meta though. she's been played forever. She's the Lee sin of Mid lane. constantly meta since creation. if she gets a nerf though it'd be something like a 50-100 speed nerf to her command attack ball movement. Make her have to predict better to hit her combos. That would be the worst possible Nerf. She is already weak to movement speed and dashes. The real reason people are sick of Ori is because Riot foolishly killed Lulu mid and Karma, honestly, is a very poorly designed champion. This has left one real utility mid. Also, I think they reduced her AA before because people said she was bullying melee too hard. I don't support that if its on the first auto (her AA last hitting shouldn't be affected), if you make Windup have more ticks to ramp up to max, that would work, IMO. No, I'm sick of Orianna because she can 2 shot squishies in AOE after 3 items while having good utility. Buff Karma and Lulu and they'll have good utility, but nowhere near the damage of Orianna. But nobody wants to watch Karma or Lulu mid. Whenever they're meta people complain about boring gameplay not only because these champions aren't very flashy but also because they happen to be popular when superboring 'protect the adc' comps become dominant. It's more my response to Ori only being good because they are nerfed.
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I like Ori as a champion in League of Legends. Maybe they could nerf her E a little bit, but I still think she's fine.
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On June 18 2017 05:59 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2017 05:48 Sent. wrote:On June 18 2017 04:41 Gahlo wrote:On June 18 2017 03:28 cLutZ wrote:On June 17 2017 21:27 PrinceXizor wrote:On June 17 2017 08:46 cLutZ wrote:On June 17 2017 08:33 Gahlo wrote: Anybody else thing Shockwave needs a CD or damage nerf? Nope, when Ori is meta, the midlane is healthy. I mean, ori is kind of always meta though. she's been played forever. She's the Lee sin of Mid lane. constantly meta since creation. if she gets a nerf though it'd be something like a 50-100 speed nerf to her command attack ball movement. Make her have to predict better to hit her combos. That would be the worst possible Nerf. She is already weak to movement speed and dashes. The real reason people are sick of Ori is because Riot foolishly killed Lulu mid and Karma, honestly, is a very poorly designed champion. This has left one real utility mid. Also, I think they reduced her AA before because people said she was bullying melee too hard. I don't support that if its on the first auto (her AA last hitting shouldn't be affected), if you make Windup have more ticks to ramp up to max, that would work, IMO. No, I'm sick of Orianna because she can 2 shot squishies in AOE after 3 items while having good utility. Buff Karma and Lulu and they'll have good utility, but nowhere near the damage of Orianna. But nobody wants to watch Karma or Lulu mid. Whenever they're meta people complain about boring gameplay not only because these champions aren't very flashy but also because they happen to be popular when superboring 'protect the adc' comps become dominant. It's more my response to Ori only being good because they are nerfed.
Ori has nowhere the utility of Lulu, she is as much like Anivia as she is like Lulu, she's a hybrid. That she is the "go to" supportive mage that gets farm means that category is in somewhat a rough spot. On top of that, her killing squishies with a RWQ combo at 3 items should bring no one tears. Her mana costs are high compared to other mages so she has low lane pressure early compared to a Syndra, Cassio, or Taliah so you should be ahead. Plus, actually hitting that combo at the 3 item point should involve 2 champions and an offensive flash (that the backline should still be able to flash out of). Complaining about Ori killing backlines is like complaining about Taliah isolating your ADC from the rest of the team with her wall. Yes its possible, but its on you, no amount of Ori skill can put you in that situation, its just a punish.
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On June 18 2017 08:58 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2017 05:59 Gahlo wrote:On June 18 2017 05:48 Sent. wrote:On June 18 2017 04:41 Gahlo wrote:On June 18 2017 03:28 cLutZ wrote:On June 17 2017 21:27 PrinceXizor wrote:On June 17 2017 08:46 cLutZ wrote:On June 17 2017 08:33 Gahlo wrote: Anybody else thing Shockwave needs a CD or damage nerf? Nope, when Ori is meta, the midlane is healthy. I mean, ori is kind of always meta though. she's been played forever. She's the Lee sin of Mid lane. constantly meta since creation. if she gets a nerf though it'd be something like a 50-100 speed nerf to her command attack ball movement. Make her have to predict better to hit her combos. That would be the worst possible Nerf. She is already weak to movement speed and dashes. The real reason people are sick of Ori is because Riot foolishly killed Lulu mid and Karma, honestly, is a very poorly designed champion. This has left one real utility mid. Also, I think they reduced her AA before because people said she was bullying melee too hard. I don't support that if its on the first auto (her AA last hitting shouldn't be affected), if you make Windup have more ticks to ramp up to max, that would work, IMO. No, I'm sick of Orianna because she can 2 shot squishies in AOE after 3 items while having good utility. Buff Karma and Lulu and they'll have good utility, but nowhere near the damage of Orianna. But nobody wants to watch Karma or Lulu mid. Whenever they're meta people complain about boring gameplay not only because these champions aren't very flashy but also because they happen to be popular when superboring 'protect the adc' comps become dominant. It's more my response to Ori only being good because they are nerfed. Ori has nowhere the utility of Lulu, she is as much like Anivia as she is like Lulu, she's a hybrid. That she is the "go to" supportive mage that gets farm means that category is in somewhat a rough spot. On top of that, her killing squishies with a RWQ combo at 3 items should bring no one tears. Her mana costs are high compared to other mages so she has low lane pressure early compared to a Syndra, Cassio, or Taliah so you should be ahead. Plus, actually hitting that combo at the 3 item point should involve 2 champions and an offensive flash (that the backline should still be able to flash out of). Complaining about Ori killing backlines is like complaining about Taliah isolating your ADC from the rest of the team with her wall. Yes its possible, but its on you, no amount of Ori skill can put you in that situation, its just a punish. Taliyah doesn't have the ability to speed up her teammates or give them shields that also provides resistances. The fact that she does a bunch of damage isn't a problem. The fact that she has great utility isn't a problem. It's that she has both.
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Yea, again you are avoiding the reliability and avoidability of her damage. If hitting Ori QW's was as easy as Syndra QW, then that might be a concern. Hitting a RWQ on Ori at 3 items on a backliner means that backliner was extremely out of position, as out of position as him getting separated from his tanks by a Taliah Wall (and both are equally flashable).
Also, you massively overstate how much utility Ori has. There is a reason Lulu was preferred as a carry in protect comps for over a year (and still is almost required for most of them from the support position) and it is because Ori's E is decent (but she needs it herself because of her short range and she needs to put it on frontliners to hope to damage the enemy backline), and W speed is nothing to write home about. If Lulu could 1 shot the backline with Q at standard item timings (or Janna Q, a quicker Morg W, etc) she would jump Ori immediately.
Ori's is much more like Lux & Anivia than champs with real utility. In terms of utility she is closer to Syndra than Lulu, to be honest.
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Oriannas main strength lies in her ability to put out consistent damage with QW and also be an AoE CC+Burst threat with ERWQ or QRWQE combos. Her main weakness is having short range has trouble dealing with people diving on her as she tries to position herself/the ball for combos.
I wouldn't say orianna has too much utility, I never really felt it having that huge an impact. I feel like removing or nerfing it would be the wrong move, as champions who are versatile are more fun and interesting to play, doing something like nerfing the radius of her R or range of Q or her damage makes more sense.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On June 18 2017 19:51 Slayer91 wrote: I wouldn't say orianna has too much utility, I never really felt it having that huge an impact. I feel like removing or nerfing it would be the wrong move, as champions who are versatile are more fun and interesting to play, doing something like nerfing the radius of her R or range of Q or her damage makes more sense. I think this is exactly why she's more likely to have her utility nerfed. Nerfing what a champion is good at makes for boring champions. Nerfing what a champion doesn't need to be good at is better. Like how Fizz should never, ever have his E nerfed.
At the end of the day, though, whenever mid lane is balanced is when Orianna comes out. I don't think she's ever been problematically strong - has there ever been a meta where Orianna shoved out all other picks mid lane?
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United States37500 Posts
Ori hasnt shoved out other Mid picks like Syndra or Azir of past but she's been omnipresent in the meta since like S3. I'm trying to think of a time in Korea when Ori wasn't considered good and I'm drawing a blank. Personally I think she's fine.
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On June 19 2017 04:20 GrandInquisitor wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2017 19:51 Slayer91 wrote: I wouldn't say orianna has too much utility, I never really felt it having that huge an impact. I feel like removing or nerfing it would be the wrong move, as champions who are versatile are more fun and interesting to play, doing something like nerfing the radius of her R or range of Q or her damage makes more sense. I think this is exactly why she's more likely to have her utility nerfed. Nerfing what a champion is good at makes for boring champions. Nerfing what a champion doesn't need to be good at is better. Like how Fizz should never, ever have his E nerfed. At the end of the day, though, whenever mid lane is balanced is when Orianna comes out. I don't think she's ever been problematically strong - has there ever been a meta where Orianna shoved out all other picks mid lane?
No it's the opposite. Having champions whose strengths are too binary is boring, that's why riot is avoiding it like the plague and remaking champions to have more options and more counterplay, and generally are more versatile.
e.g getting rid of point and click CC because those champions are always just good for their point and click CC and they can't have anything else too strong.
Typically champions need to be versatile to see the light of day in pro play because otherwise your pick can just be countered.
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[QUOTE]On June 19 2017 04:20 GrandInquisitor wrote: [QUOTE]On June 18 2017 19:51 Slayer91 wrote: has there ever been a meta where Orianna shoved out all other picks mid lane? [/QUOTE]
Right before her AA got nerfed in Season... 6(???) she was becoming pretty oppressive on ladder, but LCS never got too crazy I don't think.
That's all I can think of.
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Is it just me, or is flex queue match making just completely random? I've been playing on my smurf, where I recently placed plat 4, and am getting around 28 LP per win. One game I'll be against all silvers, while my team has a couple of diamonds. Then I'll be against a team that has a challenger and D1, but also two silvers. Then I'll be against a whole team of plats. Like, there's zero consistency.
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On June 19 2017 05:55 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2017 04:20 GrandInquisitor wrote:On June 18 2017 19:51 Slayer91 wrote: I wouldn't say orianna has too much utility, I never really felt it having that huge an impact. I feel like removing or nerfing it would be the wrong move, as champions who are versatile are more fun and interesting to play, doing something like nerfing the radius of her R or range of Q or her damage makes more sense. I think this is exactly why she's more likely to have her utility nerfed. Nerfing what a champion is good at makes for boring champions. Nerfing what a champion doesn't need to be good at is better. Like how Fizz should never, ever have his E nerfed. At the end of the day, though, whenever mid lane is balanced is when Orianna comes out. I don't think she's ever been problematically strong - has there ever been a meta where Orianna shoved out all other picks mid lane? No it's the opposite. Having champions whose strengths are too binary is boring, that's why riot is avoiding it like the plague and remaking champions to have more options and more counterplay, and generally are more versatile. e.g getting rid of point and click CC because those champions are always just good for their point and click CC and they can't have anything else too strong. Typically champions need to be versatile to see the light of day in pro play because otherwise your pick can just be countered. I agree. One thing a lot of the assassin reworks did was make them unplayable unless they were totally OP because they lack the kit diversity of a Syndra (who also has the stun, lane control, and blue control) or Leblanc who has waveclear and poke and assassination. Its a lot of "I'm rock, and I'm trusting you not to pick paper". Which, also, IMO is part of this Orianna hate in this thread. A lot of popular picks are skill matchups vs. Ori, but a lot of that "skill" is your jungler's skill, because taking a 1/1/1 Zed/Ahri/Yasuo out of the laning phase against a 1/1/1 Ori is a loss, but Ori can definitely wall those champions 1v1. Its just like why people hate facing Maokai or Malphite or Nasus toplane, because you have to make plays against the Malphite, but you can't (usually) make them on your own, and everyone hates teamwork.
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No one hates teamwork
They just all have their own versions of it and want it only there way.
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anyone who can build a catalyst item is really difficult to lane against as an assassin
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dunno what kind of people those are since I love facing maokai malphite nasus
such easy lanes to counterpick / play against
as long as you don't fuck up the team can usually handle them in teamfights
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On June 19 2017 14:29 dsyxelic wrote: dunno what kind of people those are since I love facing maokai malphite nasus
such easy lanes to counterpick / play against
as long as you don't fuck up the team can usually handle them in teamfights
Thats not the premise. The premise is people like playing (the midlane equivalent) of champions that cant dominate 1v1s vs. Malphite, but pick them anyways, then complain about him dominating teamfights when he hits 4 man ults.
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On June 19 2017 11:44 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2017 05:55 Slayer91 wrote:On June 19 2017 04:20 GrandInquisitor wrote:On June 18 2017 19:51 Slayer91 wrote: I wouldn't say orianna has too much utility, I never really felt it having that huge an impact. I feel like removing or nerfing it would be the wrong move, as champions who are versatile are more fun and interesting to play, doing something like nerfing the radius of her R or range of Q or her damage makes more sense. I think this is exactly why she's more likely to have her utility nerfed. Nerfing what a champion is good at makes for boring champions. Nerfing what a champion doesn't need to be good at is better. Like how Fizz should never, ever have his E nerfed. At the end of the day, though, whenever mid lane is balanced is when Orianna comes out. I don't think she's ever been problematically strong - has there ever been a meta where Orianna shoved out all other picks mid lane? No it's the opposite. Having champions whose strengths are too binary is boring, that's why riot is avoiding it like the plague and remaking champions to have more options and more counterplay, and generally are more versatile. e.g getting rid of point and click CC because those champions are always just good for their point and click CC and they can't have anything else too strong. Typically champions need to be versatile to see the light of day in pro play because otherwise your pick can just be countered. I agree. One thing a lot of the assassin reworks did was make them unplayable unless they were totally OP because they lack the kit diversity of a Syndra (who also has the stun, lane control, and blue control) or Leblanc who has waveclear and poke and assassination. Its a lot of "I'm rock, and I'm trusting you not to pick paper". Which, also, IMO is part of this Orianna hate in this thread. A lot of popular picks are skill matchups vs. Ori, but a lot of that "skill" is your jungler's skill, because taking a 1/1/1 Zed/Ahri/Yasuo out of the laning phase against a 1/1/1 Ori is a loss, but Ori can definitely wall those champions 1v1. Its just like why people hate facing Maokai or Malphite or Nasus toplane, because you have to make plays against the Malphite, but you can't (usually) make them on your own, and everyone hates teamwork. agreed nothing is worse when some picks a champ where there goal is to just keep the match up close and be more useful in tea fights. The amount of times I have played Ekko into ori and bullied her and just needed the jungler for the tower dive but they refuse to come cuz solo q
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On June 19 2017 08:50 GolemMadness wrote: Is it just me, or is flex queue match making just completely random? I've been playing on my smurf, where I recently placed plat 4, and am getting around 28 LP per win. One game I'll be against all silvers, while my team has a couple of diamonds. Then I'll be against a team that has a challenger and D1, but also two silvers. Then I'll be against a whole team of plats. Like, there's zero consistency. I would assume that this is their soloQ rank and since both ladders are completely separated there are plenty of cases (if not most of the players) with gap or huge gap between soloQ and flexQ rank. For example I am D4 soloQ and S1 flex and I have a friend gold 5 flex and bronze 3 soloQ, however, when the flex matchmaking starts looking for people, it looks only in its own ladder pool, so this system will match me with/against my bronze friend without breaking a sweat, thinking what a good job I did :-)
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Shouldn't Rift be in a way that really only few junglers can take it solo and only when they are fairly fed? I understand that some junglers can solo drakes, but rift is an unique objective that can be taken just once, so it should be a team effort goal imo.
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On June 19 2017 17:00 M2 wrote: Shouldn't Rift be in a way that really only few junglers can take it solo and only when they are fairly fed? I understand that some junglers can solo drakes, but rift is an unique objective that can be taken just once, so it should be a team effort goal imo. It can be solod, but it takes a while and hurts by the time you finish it.
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On June 19 2017 05:55 Slayer91 wrote:
No it's the opposite. Having champions whose strengths are too binary is boring, that's why riot is avoiding it like the plague and remaking champions to have more options and more counterplay, and generally are more versatile.
e.g getting rid of point and click CC because those champions are always just good for their point and click CC and they can't have anything else too strong.
Typically champions need to be versatile to see the light of day in pro play because otherwise your pick can just be countered. This isn't really as big of a thing in other games of the genre.
The issue arises when riot's design goals, and unique kits aren't super aligned. the new professional 5 ban phase will help toward getting the counterable picks out onto the field, But Itemization and some of the ways that league works do crowd out a lot of picks that dont do the things that are valued for that role at the time. They could fix this. but league benefits outside of the pro level quite a bit from familiarity, and from standardization.
This is most apparent in cheap items, there are no pure laning or pure lane forfeiting (like old GP10) items that aren't mandated to grow into bigger things, outside of the dorans stuff, but riot has been clipping those wings for years. 650 gold item that increases your attack range when attacking minions, or the old cho gath mid strat of take every wraith camp on cooldown. or stuff like Dota's Bracers/wraith band/Null talisman or even the Iron Talon. The Adaptive Helm is an item that would see play in mid lane if it was a 750 gold empty purchase that gave 10% CDR, 30 MR, and the unique Passive to reduce incoming repetitive damage.
It's just not in riots design, even if they say it's in their design intent for there to be variety or adaptation or unique niche picks.
Thats fine, but it's not like the way stuff is in league is a constant for the genre, it's just a result of the relative lack of complexity in other areas. As complexity can breed depth, it also can create a barrier to entry that riot doesnt want for their game, as the money making aspect isn't really the competitive scene as much as the casual skin market.
We've had stuff like that in the past though, Chalice midlane, Philo Stone, currently Ninja Tabi bot lane is an example of that, Though with boots its a bit different as you are going to buy them anyway. Though if thats the direction for "Laning one off purchases" that riot wants to go i'm down. Expand boots options and have it be the thing people buy to get through the laning phase. Boots that decrease damage taken from minions by a bunch for freezing lane, or boots that have the adaptive helm effect, or boots that give % missing mana regen, Boots that act like tahm grey HP, but if regen is interrupted the regen goes away entirely. Boots that have an activatable 1.5 second speed boost or something. I'm down for the boots slot being that specialty item buy.
On June 19 2017 18:42 Gahlo wrote: It can be solod, but it takes a while and hurts by the time you finish it.
Can Shyv still solo rift on spawn with boots + tracker's knife? I know she used to be able to solo dragon at lvl 2 on spawn, but i think they nerfed that.
EDIT:
Also have ya'll noticed there are only 6 items with % Mana regen anymore? and two of them are the upgrades to the tribute item? So they introduced the new AP bonus to Athene's but so many items no longer give % mana regen, and instead they just threw it onto the base regen of the support champs. So it's like an item for a past iteration of the game, but it's new.
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On June 19 2017 14:29 dsyxelic wrote: dunno what kind of people those are since I love facing maokai malphite nasus
such easy lanes to counterpick / play against
as long as you don't fuck up the team can usually handle them in teamfights Mfw this is literally my entire champ pool. I guess I listened to LS for too long.
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Just add zwain and all pool issues are solved.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
On June 19 2017 17:00 M2 wrote: Shouldn't Rift be in a way that really only few junglers can take it solo and only when they are fairly fed? I understand that some junglers can solo drakes, but rift is an unique objective that can be taken just once, so it should be a team effort goal imo. Sorry not sorry if this comes across as a bit rude, I've been mostly absent from the patch notes thread, but does anyone here actually care how you think the rift herald should be designed?
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A SHADOW ON THE HORIZONWe have a bunch of new champions in various stages of development. I’m not going to go over all of the champions in production (spoilers), just the one that has been infesting my mind lately — a new carry champion that we think will perform well in the jungle. After Ivern, we wanted to try our hand at a more aggressive, damage-focused champion that should feel at home in the jungle. They will also be our first transformation champion since Gnar, but this take on transformation will be unlike any champion we have ever made. I don’t want to say much more than that for now, but keep an eye out for more info soon.
I have a bad feeling about this.
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Why have a bad feeling? Half the time people are complaining about everything becoming to similar. They announce they doing something innovative (will it be who knows at this point) and that also gives you a bad feeling. I have a feeling you are glass half empty kinda guy!
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more champion reworks for outdated guys are good. but i feel like the meta might stagnate w/o class updates unless they do larger scale itemization reworks and the usual jungle overhaul
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On June 21 2017 13:05 JimmiC wrote: Why have a bad feeling? Half the time people are complaining about everything becoming to similar. They announce they doing something innovative (will it be who knows at this point) and that also gives you a bad feeling. I have a feeling you are glass half empty kinda guy!
• It's a transformation champion, probably more like Gnar than Elise/Jayce/Nidalee to which I got used to. I don't like Gnar, he's really awkward in solo q and was too strong in competitive. • It's a carry jungler and Riot isn't good at making those. They always crowd out everything that's not Elise or Lee, and often end nerfed into oblivion like Kindred.
I would be fine with it being just a transformation champ, but a transformation-carry-jungler looks like a glass full of piss. Though it can be lemonade, I shouldn't be so negative from the start.
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On June 19 2017 16:52 M2 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2017 08:50 GolemMadness wrote: Is it just me, or is flex queue match making just completely random? I've been playing on my smurf, where I recently placed plat 4, and am getting around 28 LP per win. One game I'll be against all silvers, while my team has a couple of diamonds. Then I'll be against a team that has a challenger and D1, but also two silvers. Then I'll be against a whole team of plats. Like, there's zero consistency. I would assume that this is their soloQ rank and since both ladders are completely separated there are plenty of cases (if not most of the players) with gap or huge gap between soloQ and flexQ rank. For example I am D4 soloQ and S1 flex and I have a friend gold 5 flex and bronze 3 soloQ, however, when the flex matchmaking starts looking for people, it looks only in its own ladder pool, so this system will match me with/against my bronze friend without breaking a sweat, thinking what a good job I did :-)
Nope, those are all their flex ranks.
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How can you possibly know that when the person posting the ranks doesn't say where he got that info from.
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On June 21 2017 18:28 Fildun wrote: How can you possibly know that when the person posting the ranks doesn't say where he got that info from. He is the person posting, right? Or am I missing something here? :')
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LOL Thought the person I replied to was Scip. I guess I'm just retarded, unlucky.
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Recognizing people by their icon, lol
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On June 21 2017 13:19 Sent. wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2017 13:05 JimmiC wrote: Why have a bad feeling? Half the time people are complaining about everything becoming to similar. They announce they doing something innovative (will it be who knows at this point) and that also gives you a bad feeling. I have a feeling you are glass half empty kinda guy! • It's a transformation champion, probably more like Gnar than Elise/Jayce/Nidalee to which I got used to. I don't like Gnar, he's really awkward in solo q and was too strong in competitive. • It's a carry jungler and Riot isn't good at making those. They always crowd out everything that's not Elise or Lee, and often end nerfed into oblivion like Kindred. I would be fine with it being just a transformation champ, but a transformation-carry-jungler looks like a glass full of piss. Though it can be lemonade, I shouldn't be so negative from the start. Since it's a carry jungler my guess would be the transformation is somewhat under your control. Really hope it's not a "in this form I'll murder ya'll" kinda transformation, that'd be nearly impossible for competitive vs casual.
Would looooove to see a champion where how you spec skills define how the champion is played. Spend points while in form A will increase something or spend them while in form B will increase something else for instance.
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warwick is a prime example of how a champ rework is good for the game but not necessarily the player base.
He's a better and more interesting champ now that actually draws bans, but I don't know literally any warwick mains that still play the new one, and the champ kept a very similar theme.
It just shows that reworks can keep the champ very close themewise but its not going to keep its playerbase
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On June 21 2017 13:19 Sent. wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2017 13:05 JimmiC wrote: Why have a bad feeling? Half the time people are complaining about everything becoming to similar. They announce they doing something innovative (will it be who knows at this point) and that also gives you a bad feeling. I have a feeling you are glass half empty kinda guy! • It's a transformation champion, probably more like Gnar than Elise/Jayce/Nidalee to which I got used to. I don't like Gnar, he's really awkward in solo q and was too strong in competitive. • It's a carry jungler and Riot isn't good at making those. They always crowd out everything that's not Elise or Lee, and often end nerfed into oblivion like Kindred. I would be fine with it being just a transformation champ, but a transformation-carry-jungler looks like a glass full of piss. Though it can be lemonade, I shouldn't be so negative from the start. My wild guess would be something much more like Ragnaros from HotS than Gnar. Rag is a melee damage dealer with lifesteal built into his kit, and can posess a fort (i guess like a tower in league) and gain range and abunch of big aoe abilities.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On June 21 2017 22:07 VayneAuthority wrote: warwick is a prime example of how a champ rework is good for the game but not necessarily the player base.
He's a better and more interesting champ now that actually draws bans, but I don't know literally any warwick mains that still play the new one, and the champ kept a very similar theme.
It just shows that reworks can keep the champ very close themewise but its not going to keep its playerbase So?
I stopped playing Fizz and Brand after their reworks. They were excellent reworks that didn't change much but made them way more interesting. (RIP Fizz QW one-shotting everyone after two items.) But they just didn't feel the same to me, so I went to other champions. I'm sure there were many new Fizz/Brand mains to take my place.
It seems so limiting to try to keep the old playerbase, and I don't see why you would care.
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United States37500 Posts
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On June 21 2017 23:28 GrandInquisitor wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2017 22:07 VayneAuthority wrote: warwick is a prime example of how a champ rework is good for the game but not necessarily the player base.
He's a better and more interesting champ now that actually draws bans, but I don't know literally any warwick mains that still play the new one, and the champ kept a very similar theme.
It just shows that reworks can keep the champ very close themewise but its not going to keep its playerbase So? I stopped playing Fizz and Brand after their reworks. They were excellent reworks that didn't change much but made them way more interesting. (RIP Fizz QW one-shotting everyone after two items.) But they just didn't feel the same to me, so I went to other champions. I'm sure there were many new Fizz/Brand mains to take my place. It seems so limiting to try to keep the old playerbase, and I don't see why you would care.
Every post you make I am more convinced that you own an executive fidget spinner. Your posts are always hostile for zero reason, you lack social skills.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
I meant I don't see why "one would care" as in the generic you (or I guess Riot), not you specifically.
So I guess I could have worded it better, but you know, inferring hostile intent by misinterpreting innocuous posts, while ignoring the fact that we literally just had a civil conversation earlier this thread, so that you can lash out at me for lacking social skills using fidget spinner analogies, seems a bit ... ironic.
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On June 22 2017 01:30 GrandInquisitor wrote: I meant I don't see why "one would care" as in the generic you (or I guess Riot), not you specifically.
So I guess I could have worded it better, but you know, inferring hostile intent by misinterpreting innocuous posts, while ignoring the fact that we literally just had a civil conversation earlier this thread, so that you can lash out at me for lacking social skills using fidget spinner analogies, seems a bit ... ironic. He's low key calling you autistic, I believe.
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On June 22 2017 01:57 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2017 01:30 GrandInquisitor wrote: I meant I don't see why "one would care" as in the generic you (or I guess Riot), not you specifically.
So I guess I could have worded it better, but you know, inferring hostile intent by misinterpreting innocuous posts, while ignoring the fact that we literally just had a civil conversation earlier this thread, so that you can lash out at me for lacking social skills using fidget spinner analogies, seems a bit ... ironic. He's low key calling you autistic, I believe.
Dunno about lowkey lmao
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
If we are to discuss things, it's important to reach some common ground first. Everyone who posted in the last 3 pages is autistic, can we agree on that?
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On June 21 2017 22:07 VayneAuthority wrote: warwick is a prime example of how a champ rework is good for the game but not necessarily the player base.
He's a better and more interesting champ now that actually draws bans, but I don't know literally any warwick mains that still play the new one, and the champ kept a very similar theme.
It just shows that reworks can keep the champ very close themewise but its not going to keep its playerbase I don't really see how new Warwick is any better for the game than the old one was, and on a similar note earlier versions of Ryze compared to the numerous attempts at reworking him we've gone through.
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replace point and click with skillshots is riots bread and butter makes counterplay possible and also makes it easier for tanks to block engages on other targets
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Ryze reworks have to be the most annoying thing Riot has attempted with reworks. We have a mage, he costs 450 IP (aka possibly your first ever champion buy), he is one of League of Legends' iconic, and unique characters compared to the "mothership" of DOTA. And now, there is 1 person in the world who can play him.
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United States37500 Posts
Warwick rework was an improvement imo. Not as loaded as Poppy rework but it definitely gave the champion more depth. "Better for the game" is subjective but it's not hard to argue considering old WW was two point and clicks abilities, a steroid, and a passive.
idk what pre-rework WW mains Brees is talking about but looking at na.op.gg right now, there are still two high diamond Jungle WW mains and Hashinshin who plays WW Top.
Edit: Crown, Faker, Maple are who come to mind when I think Ryze.
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my least favorite rework was karma's. using your mantra shield to damage things was a really different playstyle that i don't feel like any other champion does
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On June 22 2017 03:12 Slayer91 wrote: replace point and click with skillshots is riots bread and butter makes counterplay possible and also makes it easier for tanks to block engages on other targets Right, I get the idea but there is counterplay beyond dodging and blocking skillshots and I don't think every champion needs to follow similar patterns.
My least favourite rework by far is Leblanc.
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Give me back my point and click already :< The main problem with everything becoming a skillshot is that champions start to feel very similar, which is something I think they'd like to avoid.
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On June 22 2017 03:16 NeoIllusions wrote: Warwick rework was an improvement imo. Not as loaded as Poppy rework but it definitely gave the champion more depth. "Better for the game" is subjective but it's not hard to argue considering old WW was two point and clicks abilities, a steroid, and a passive.
idk what pre-rework WW mains Brees is talking about but looking at na.op.gg right now, there are still two high diamond Jungle WW mains and Hashinshin who plays WW Top.
Edit: Crown, Faker, Maple are who come to mind when I think Ryze.
I don't watch LMS, so maybe Maple can play Ryze, but Crown's Ryze with the new ult was never my fave. Of course since he has such smooth mechanics it works on that level, but it doesn't seem like a full integration with the champion. His game vs. KT during the playoffs comes to mind.
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I think Shen's rework made him less player (or at least newbie) friendly. He was never a playmaker but his old Q and W made his laning very comfortable without being broken. Riot added some complexity to his kit but he's still boring af and has roughly the same issues he did before. Didn't check his play rates but I think nobody picks the new Shen and thinks "I'm going to have fun in this game".
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On June 22 2017 03:16 NeoIllusions wrote: Warwick rework was an improvement imo. Not as loaded as Poppy rework but it definitely gave the champion more depth. "Better for the game" is subjective but it's not hard to argue considering old WW was two point and clicks abilities, a steroid, and a passive.
idk what pre-rework WW mains Brees is talking about but looking at na.op.gg right now, there are still two high diamond Jungle WW mains and Hashinshin who plays WW Top.
Edit: Crown, Faker, Maple are who come to mind when I think Ryze. Bjergerking.
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On June 22 2017 03:49 Sent. wrote: I think Shen's rework made him less player (or at least newbie) friendly. He was never a playmaker but his old Q and W made his laning very comfortable without being broken. Riot added some complexity to his kit but he's still boring af and has roughly the same issues he did before. Didn't check his play rates but I think nobody picks the new Shen and thinks "I'm going to have fun in this game". New Shen is very boring yes, but I don't remember Old Shen being fun. My main problem with New Shen is his sword thing is very clunky to use.
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I meant that he used to be boring but simple and they made him boring, clunky and slightly more complex.
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On June 22 2017 03:18 Frolossus wrote: my least favorite rework was karma's. using your mantra shield to damage things was a really different playstyle that i don't feel like any other champion does
They did keep that in the rework. They just removed it around two years afterward.
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On June 22 2017 08:59 GolemMadness wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2017 03:18 Frolossus wrote: my least favorite rework was karma's. using your mantra shield to damage things was a really different playstyle that i don't feel like any other champion does They did keep that in the rework. They just removed it around two years afterward. IN a totally different way though. it dealt much less damage, could only be cast on champs and not minions, it was just different,
I'm kind of cursed though when it comes to playing champions. i pick a champ to get good at and it gets reworked shortly after.
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New Shen can't just go just raidboss mode so it has to be worse. On that note, fuck Maokai's reworks.
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Can we all just agree that the Maokai rework was shit? They took away probably the best tank ultimate in the game, and moved his power into weird situational shit that usually doesn't work, especially in solo queue. Now we have these retarded saplings that can be stacked and do 16% of someone's max health, and an ultimate that usually doesn't do anything because a tank can just take one of the roots and everyone else can stand behind them and not get hit by anything.
The only time he's been remotely popular was at support, just because of how stupid his saplings are, and that's still the position where his win rate is highest, even after they made changes to try to stop people from playing him at that position. I get that the sapling changes is kind of cool thematically, but in the actual game, it's pretty dumb. They should have made so in a bush they have an increased slow instead of doing insane damage.
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Saplings are worse anyway 'cause you can't snipe people with them anymore either. They aren't even cool like that now!
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I loved mao rrwork most fun i had playing support ever. Then they made him unplayable anywhere
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I really dislike the idea of making saplings a huge gimmick that works in laning phase and as a troll to camp bushes.. not a true manly tank playstyle at all
old and new mao ults are kinda cool. You can use R to peel from the front, or else try some hammer and anvil play with a tp behind or flank with RG to get a sick engage in so they have to run into your team or get cc'd.
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I understand why people didnt like it. But man was it fun to make death bushes by your self or bait people to chase you into multiple bushes that had saps. Prob one of thode fun to play awful to play vs.
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On June 22 2017 10:17 JimmiC wrote: I understand why people didnt like it. But man was it fun to make death bushes by your self or bait people to chase you into multiple bushes that had saps. Prob one of thode fun to play awful to play vs. The AP maokai death bushes on ARAM give me nightmares.
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MY best memory with him, possibly in league history was I was playing support and the other team had a super cocky and fed darius who said he was a masters smurf (plat game) he may have been or just having a good game but he was like 1v3 ing us and being cocky as hell. So I set 5 bombs up in the brush at dragon pit and said 1v1 me. he runs over and starts doing his taunt over and over then I just w to him q him to the push and ult and he runs right to bush and blows up. His whole team even started LOLing. Good times.
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My feeling about new maokai is slightly similar to the poppy rework.
I'd have been happier if it was just a new champion based on that new maokai ult, compared to what they did. Like how i wish poppy was still poppy, and new poppy was some brand new champ.
The new mao ult is really cool, and the slow zone control is something that would have been really cool on a champ based on it, maybe a champ that creates terrain and stuff, not the champ that was all about absorbing damage and locking someone down.
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i had hoped they would let maokai get 'stealth' when he is near a tree on the map
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I actually think the old jungle Maokai was the best version. Or, at least, I think jungle Maokai had the most interesting playstyle of all the Maokai iterations.
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On June 22 2017 13:40 cLutZ wrote: I actually think the old jungle Maokai was the best version. Or, at least, I think jungle Maokai had the most interesting playstyle of all the Maokai iterations. i mean thats what they were trying to do with the new one. but they kinda whiffed.
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On June 23 2017 03:02 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2017 13:40 cLutZ wrote: I actually think the old jungle Maokai was the best version. Or, at least, I think jungle Maokai had the most interesting playstyle of all the Maokai iterations. i mean thats what they were trying to do with the new one. but they kinda whiffed. How is it like the new one at all?
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On June 23 2017 03:08 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2017 03:02 PrinceXizor wrote:On June 22 2017 13:40 cLutZ wrote: I actually think the old jungle Maokai was the best version. Or, at least, I think jungle Maokai had the most interesting playstyle of all the Maokai iterations. i mean thats what they were trying to do with the new one. but they kinda whiffed. How is it like the new one at all? they were trying to make the % max hp saplings to force you back into the jungle to use it but it just made people go support instead.
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I'm just sad s5 maokai is gone. At the time, when I just started watching/playing, the maokai flanks by marin were imo really cool, with the greaves/homeguard/righteous glory.
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On June 23 2017 03:19 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2017 03:08 cLutZ wrote:On June 23 2017 03:02 PrinceXizor wrote:On June 22 2017 13:40 cLutZ wrote: I actually think the old jungle Maokai was the best version. Or, at least, I think jungle Maokai had the most interesting playstyle of all the Maokai iterations. i mean thats what they were trying to do with the new one. but they kinda whiffed. How is it like the new one at all? they were trying to make the % max hp saplings to force you back into the jungle to use it but it just made people go support instead. Well, he still couldn't clear the jungle so that isn't close. His ganks now are trash compared to then because his W range got nuked, and his ult is so weird it doesn't fit for a jungler either.
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He is designed well as a support now. It is just that riot and old MAO fans want him has a big tank top or jungle. What they should have done is just released a new champ with these abilities as a catapult ap support.
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Yes, he is a peeling support now. It should be obvious why old Mao players are not fans.
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His ult is also pretty easy to hit in a duo lane when your flash is up, you can usually ult -> flash W -> Q knock back to guarantee it for a pretty nasty CC chain. obv any jungle like j4 or lee can guarantee it as well.
but yeah he's in no way the same. and for peel champs i'd rather tahm or thresh. I am sad i never got to screw around with old maokai ult + old bond of stone + knights vow.
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United States37500 Posts
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