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On March 24 2016 23:26 GrandInquisitor wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2016 18:28 wei2coolman wrote:
I haven't been watching too many high elo streamers recently, but what exactly have been the problems of dynamic queue at the highest level?
I know imaqtpie's highlights have been amazing so far (mostly because of his editor), but even watching his stream, most of his games look pretty normal; haven't heard any real complaints about the dynamic queue system. If anything it's made some of his game even more hilarious when he's trio queuing himself. Last time I pointed out the stupidity of an anti-Riot circlejerk, I got banned for two weeks, which tells you a lot about this community. So this time I will simply note that op.gg has been tracking 20% more ranked players than last year at this point in the season, with significantly more players in Master Tier. This is true across every server I checked - NA, KR, EUW.
those people played normals/team builder before hows that fucking different they just swapped queue names, removed soloQ screwing over high elo players and everybody who felt competitive about this game
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On March 24 2016 23:42 kongoline wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2016 23:26 GrandInquisitor wrote:On March 24 2016 18:28 wei2coolman wrote:
I haven't been watching too many high elo streamers recently, but what exactly have been the problems of dynamic queue at the highest level?
I know imaqtpie's highlights have been amazing so far (mostly because of his editor), but even watching his stream, most of his games look pretty normal; haven't heard any real complaints about the dynamic queue system. If anything it's made some of his game even more hilarious when he's trio queuing himself. Last time I pointed out the stupidity of an anti-Riot circlejerk, I got banned for two weeks, which tells you a lot about this community. So this time I will simply note that op.gg has been tracking 20% more ranked players than last year at this point in the season, with significantly more players in Master Tier. This is true across every server I checked - NA, KR, EUW. those people played normals/team builder before hows that fucking different they just swapped queue names, removed soloQ screwing over high elo players and everybody who felt competitive about this game
How is that, exactly?
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On March 24 2016 23:26 GrandInquisitor wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2016 18:28 wei2coolman wrote:
I haven't been watching too many high elo streamers recently, but what exactly have been the problems of dynamic queue at the highest level?
I know imaqtpie's highlights have been amazing so far (mostly because of his editor), but even watching his stream, most of his games look pretty normal; haven't heard any real complaints about the dynamic queue system. If anything it's made some of his game even more hilarious when he's trio queuing himself. Last time I pointed out the stupidity of an anti-Riot circlejerk, I got banned for two weeks, which tells you a lot about this community. So this time I will simply note that op.gg has been tracking 20% more ranked players than last year at this point in the season, with significantly more players in Master Tier. This is true across every server I checked - NA, KR, EUW.
breaking news, when you delete 2 queues and give heavy incentives towards playing a certain queue the players go up!
More people isn't a separate or good point btw, if the population increases naturally everything else does too. Its also an affect of dynamic q inflating rankings as you now have a steady 5 players climbing together instead of having to go through the ups and downs of playing by yourself.
You got banned because you bring up garbage arguments and defend riot just to play devil's advocate, not because of the "community is out to get you"
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On March 24 2016 23:20 VayneAuthority wrote:
yea i havent played normals since pre-ranked and I am actually playing normals and even ARAMs this season, ranked doesnt feel competitive at all anymore.
What about ranked makes it feel non-competitive to you now? I felt like the the late pre-S6 changes made SoloQ kind of a crapshoot since teams were punished more for bad individual plays than they were rewarded for good individual plays, but with more groups playing in dynamic queue, plus more players in general, I've had a much more positive experience. Teams tend to be more balanced, and when I'm 1 in 1+4s or part of 2 in 2+3s, the other people on my team feel much more willing to play as a team, which is the whole point of a 5v5 game.
These experiences are obviously anecdotal and subjective, but on a technical basis, having more players in ranked only makes it more competitive due to the feasibility of stricter thresholds for matchmaking.
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On March 24 2016 23:58 Zess wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2016 23:20 VayneAuthority wrote:
yea i havent played normals since pre-ranked and I am actually playing normals and even ARAMs this season, ranked doesnt feel competitive at all anymore.
What about ranked makes it feel non-competitive to you now? I felt like the the late pre-S6 changes made SoloQ kind of a crapshoot since teams were punished more for bad individual plays than they were rewarded for good individual plays, but with more groups playing in dynamic queue, plus more players in general, I've had a much more positive experience. Teams tend to be more balanced, and when I'm 1 in 1+4s or part of 2 in 2+3s, the other people on my team feel much more willing to play as a team, which is the whole point of a 5v5 game. These experiences are obviously anecdotal and subjective, but on a technical basis, having more players in ranked only makes it more competitive due to the feasibility of stricter thresholds for matchmaking.
Dynamic Q has little to do with it, although yes ranked feels meaningless when I queue up with a lulu top/mid main in D2 that has like 2-5-7 for average KDA and obviously got there just being a lulu bot in a premade. Thats just one example. Makes my already garbage ranking feel even worse and pointless.
Mostly has to do with the game itself now. 4 ZZrots, catch/escape champs dominating the meta (because if you die mid/late game you get a massive death timer and can lose your entire lead in one death)
Example: level 13 vs their level 10 jungler after dismantling him all game. Die once in a teamfight, he doesnt. He is now level 12 while I was dead and my lead is irrelevant for playing in a teamfight.
The itemization right now is really bad. Mages have one AP/armor option and its super expensive. You can build pretty much anyone bruiser style and do well since bruiser items are quite good atm. Sated/guinsoo's is a joke combo, even devourer vi is really good with it.
I could go on and on at how noncompetitive the game is atm.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On March 24 2016 23:54 VayneAuthority wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2016 23:26 GrandInquisitor wrote:On March 24 2016 18:28 wei2coolman wrote:
I haven't been watching too many high elo streamers recently, but what exactly have been the problems of dynamic queue at the highest level?
I know imaqtpie's highlights have been amazing so far (mostly because of his editor), but even watching his stream, most of his games look pretty normal; haven't heard any real complaints about the dynamic queue system. If anything it's made some of his game even more hilarious when he's trio queuing himself. Last time I pointed out the stupidity of an anti-Riot circlejerk, I got banned for two weeks, which tells you a lot about this community. So this time I will simply note that op.gg has been tracking 20% more ranked players than last year at this point in the season, with significantly more players in Master Tier. This is true across every server I checked - NA, KR, EUW. breaking news, when you delete 2 queues and give heavy incentives towards playing a certain queue the players go up! More people isn't a separate or good point btw, if the population increases naturally everything else does too. Its also an affect of dynamic q inflating rankings as you now have a steady 5 players climbing together instead of having to go through the ups and downs of playing by yourself. You got banned because you bring up garbage arguments and defend riot just to play devil's advocate, not because of the "community is out to get you"
To be clear - you claim I'm making garbage arguments, and at the same time claim that deleting Team Builder / Dominion added over 5,000 Diamond players to EUW this early in the season? Who knew that there was so much European talent wasting away playing Dominion with bots.
Whether or not you're premade doesn't inflate MMR. For every 5-man premade that gains LP, there's another 5-man premade losing LP.
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On March 25 2016 00:14 GrandInquisitor wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2016 23:54 VayneAuthority wrote:On March 24 2016 23:26 GrandInquisitor wrote:On March 24 2016 18:28 wei2coolman wrote:
I haven't been watching too many high elo streamers recently, but what exactly have been the problems of dynamic queue at the highest level?
I know imaqtpie's highlights have been amazing so far (mostly because of his editor), but even watching his stream, most of his games look pretty normal; haven't heard any real complaints about the dynamic queue system. If anything it's made some of his game even more hilarious when he's trio queuing himself. Last time I pointed out the stupidity of an anti-Riot circlejerk, I got banned for two weeks, which tells you a lot about this community. So this time I will simply note that op.gg has been tracking 20% more ranked players than last year at this point in the season, with significantly more players in Master Tier. This is true across every server I checked - NA, KR, EUW. breaking news, when you delete 2 queues and give heavy incentives towards playing a certain queue the players go up! More people isn't a separate or good point btw, if the population increases naturally everything else does too. Its also an affect of dynamic q inflating rankings as you now have a steady 5 players climbing together instead of having to go through the ups and downs of playing by yourself. You got banned because you bring up garbage arguments and defend riot just to play devil's advocate, not because of the "community is out to get you" To be clear - you claim I'm making garbage arguments, and at the same time claim that deleting Team Builder / Dominion added over 5,000 Diamond players to EUW this early in the season? Who knew that there was so much European talent wasting away playing Dominion with bots. Whether or not you're premade doesn't inflate MMR. For every 5-man premade that gains LP, there's another 5-man premade losing LP.
I was referring to team ranked, I obviously dont consider dominion a SR queue.
Sure it does, players that main stuff like lulu/janna/insert FOTM team player champ here would never get to masters on their own. But when you drop them into a system its easy to inflate your rank. The 5 man premades losing LP weren't meant to be masters anyway so there isn't a tradeoff.
hard to take anything you say seriously because in the post you got banned on you don't think death timers are a problem which is ignorant to say the least.
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What's the issue with playing champs that help boost your team and getting boosted in a team when you're playing a 5v5 game?
It's not like we're playing Starcraft and suddenly 4v4 becomes the only ladder.
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On March 24 2016 23:39 Gahlo wrote:
I've got diddly from the crafting stuff since I don't play with other and ahve been stuck with A+s.
For me i dont get keys. Only got 7 keys total so far but got my 4 chests first day it came out.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
I mean, your argument remains the same: that this 20% increase in ranked play, with a 50% increase in Master Tier, is somehow STILL evidence that "ranked is dying" and "high elo ranked got killed by dynamic queue", because it's attributable to players who ONLY played Team Ranked and ONLY played Team Builder, never played ranked, but started playing ranked and made it to Diamond by March. It's completely illogical and you would never accept this reasoning if it didn't come out to a conclusion that you had already settled on.
Put it this way - if I had posted evidence showing the exact opposite - that ranked had lost 20% of its players , you wouldn't scrutinize it all. You'd immediately accept it as evidence that Riot fucked up ranked. But because the evidence doesn't come out the way you like, you're coming up with nitpicks and justifications that don't really make much sense. In reality, every bit of objective evidence suggests that ranked, especially high-elo ranked, is substantially more active and competitive than it ever has been.
I'm not being pro-Riot. I'm being anti-stupid-arguments. For example:
On March 25 2016 00:21 VayneAuthority wrote:
Sure it does, players that main stuff like lulu/janna/insert FOTM team player champ here would never get to masters on their own. But when you drop them into a system its easy to inflate your rank. The 5 man premades losing LP weren't meant to be masters anyway so there isn't a tradeoff.
This doesn't make any sense. You're suggesting that: in solo queue, Platinum-level Lulu mains hit a 50% winrate and stay in Platinum, but as part of a premade, Platinum-level Lulu mains now win > 50% of their games and hit Diamond. Except that if a Lulu is consistently winning > 50% games at Platinum through teamcomps, teamplay, and being a team player, shit, maybe she doesn't deserve to be Platinum.
Moreover, even if this were true, what you're basically saying is that picking team-oriented champs gives you an advantage in premade v. premade games. Except that that directly implies that the other premade, who picked a bunch of solo queue heroes, is seeing their MMR drop for exactly the same reason. So while you might justifiably argue that people who main team-oriented champs disproportionately benefit from dynamic queue, you can't then go on to claim that the MMR of a server globally rises, because those team-oriented champs are beating solo queue champs, who are seeing their MMR go down.
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I know dynamic queue makes me want to play more.
How would I go about moving my account to garena? Does it cost zenybucks? Does garena have dynamic queue? I guess I don't have friends to play with anyway.
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On March 25 2016 00:49 Ketara wrote:
I know dynamic queue makes me want to play more.
How would I go about moving my account to garena? Does it cost zenybucks? Does garena have dynamic queue? I guess I don't have friends to play with anyway.
i really don't think you want to play on garena.
i'd try japan or china first
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If I play in China I have to go ham all game every game though.
I'm from the ancient martial arts school of scipaeus. Our philosophy is its hard to lose the game if you never die.
PS: I always die anyway.
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On March 25 2016 00:49 Ketara wrote:
I know dynamic queue makes me want to play more.
How would I go about moving my account to garena? Does it cost zenybucks? Does garena have dynamic queue? I guess I don't have friends to play with anyway.
You don't want to play on Garena. Friend of mine in 'Nam quit playing League over there because the server is a shitfest.
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On March 24 2016 15:21 AlterKot wrote:
Just want to say I agree with nafta that this move might be good in short-term, but I wonder if it is long-term. Might be coincidence but most people I played League with now play significantly less or not at all.
it'lll retain players much better this way. i don't think league has any population issues on the big servers to begin with but when people are encouraged to play with friends more, they are less likely to stop playing because all of their friends moved to different games.
On March 24 2016 17:58 Alaric wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2016 15:21 AlterKot wrote:
Just want to say I agree with nafta that this move might be good in short-term, but I wonder if it is long-term. Might be coincidence but most people I played League with now play significantly less or not at all. From what I've seen, apart from the OTPs who buy every single skin for their champion, old timers don't spend that much, especially now, since they've ground most of the content they need and thus make do with IP. By comparison, the most casual people who don't even play every week still find skins shiny and stuff and plan to buy a couple whenever they come out. Or, more popularly, they gift each other skins they want, which is the same in Riot's eye. As long as they keep buying new skins, and bring more people in the fold (hence the focus on social media, clubs, etc. so you can make your whole facebook friendlist start playing through your wall), it's more profitable for Riot than people who buy skins sparingly and are less satisfied with the state of the game because they've been witness to Riot's bullshit for quite long at this point. Heck, the people who buy skins probably don't overlap much with those who read the patchnotes, they don't notice when most nerfs happen unless the champ's Olafed or it's very noticeable (such as "hey I have X gold why can't I buy item Y? - Nerfed cost. - Oh? Why?").
i'll still buy the championship skins each year, but outside of that i think the most recently made skin that i purchased was officer vi last summer. i feel like i have the best looking skins already for all of the champions i play and have no interest in the new ones i've seen. there are a small handful of skin concepts that have appeared over the years that would interest me like rococo orianna but i don't think it will happen.
i think that the majority of the people currently complaining about the state of the game started either during or after season 2. so they never really had the chance to see it in much worse states.
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I never said that the playerbase is lowering I said that it isn't competitive. If more people play wouldnt that mean that the people who actually try just keep shitting on those baddies and move up? The fact that a lot of people with 2k+ games last season couldn't get d2 for months are now in master is a great example. I didn't talk much about this before because this is what happens at the start of every season. But now it is still a reality and it isn't just the start of the season with plebs like gross gore in challenger.
I do think dynamic q is good for streaming but not for pushing people to actually try to become strong players.
Old players getting bored is natural even in a game like this that changes 24/7.
Something that you completely ignore is that since q times are longer more people make smurfs and they get to chall/master again.
Also GI you aren't the only person who got banned while the other side that was just as aggressive was ignored 
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On March 24 2016 23:26 GrandInquisitor wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2016 18:28 wei2coolman wrote:
I haven't been watching too many high elo streamers recently, but what exactly have been the problems of dynamic queue at the highest level?
I know imaqtpie's highlights have been amazing so far (mostly because of his editor), but even watching his stream, most of his games look pretty normal; haven't heard any real complaints about the dynamic queue system. If anything it's made some of his game even more hilarious when he's trio queuing himself. Last time I pointed out the stupidity of an anti-Riot circlejerk, I got banned for two weeks, which tells you a lot about this community. So this time I will simply note that op.gg has been tracking 20% more ranked players than last year at this point in the season, with significantly more players in Master Tier. This is true across every server I checked - NA, KR, EUW.
I mean, I feel like the complaints about dynamic queue usually fall closer to "zomg i can't win cuz elo hell", than it does "oh, there's serious balance issues here".
Also haven't really heard a good argument as to why it hurts high elo players (much less what constitutes "high" elo)
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I've seen a lot of DynamicQ complaints from varying angles.
1) High queue times. I think this is now only a problem at Masters+ and maybe Bronze-. Probably slightly higher than previous average still, if I were making assumptions. And high Elo matchmaking time was always awful. I think a lot of this is now because there is an easy scapegoat that segues into the next most common argument:
2) People think this now means Elo is not representative of actual skill. I don't personally think it really ever was at the most granular level and that it almost certainly averages out over the long run like it always did, but that's just me. I think there's a widespread 'carry complex', especially among mid-tier players and elitists, believing that somehow some people much shittier at the game than one's self will ruin future games because of bad matchmaking at the team level and that DynamicQ encourages this by allowing three- and four- stacks. I won't get into how unlikely this is given matchmaking restrictions/people not actually playing with the same group all the time, or even the wide disparity in somebody's personal Elo rating at a role level. It's just an inherent MOBA complex to think we're individually great and that others ought to be as well.
Everything else is tangential. High-elo players make smurfs for reasons unrelated to DynamicQ and it's not a problem solved by removing it, that's for sure.
For longer-term effects, I've got no reason to think it'll be bad for the game and haven't seen a convincing argument why it would be. I think this is espoused by the same people who think displaying Elo was good for long-term engagement.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On March 25 2016 02:47 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2016 23:26 GrandInquisitor wrote:On March 24 2016 18:28 wei2coolman wrote:
I haven't been watching too many high elo streamers recently, but what exactly have been the problems of dynamic queue at the highest level?
I know imaqtpie's highlights have been amazing so far (mostly because of his editor), but even watching his stream, most of his games look pretty normal; haven't heard any real complaints about the dynamic queue system. If anything it's made some of his game even more hilarious when he's trio queuing himself. Last time I pointed out the stupidity of an anti-Riot circlejerk, I got banned for two weeks, which tells you a lot about this community. So this time I will simply note that op.gg has been tracking 20% more ranked players than last year at this point in the season, with significantly more players in Master Tier. This is true across every server I checked - NA, KR, EUW. I mean, I feel like the complaints about dynamic queue usually fall closer to "zomg i can't win cuz elo hell", than it does "oh, there's serious balance issues here". Also haven't really heard a good argument as to why it hurts high elo players (much less what constitutes "high" elo)
I have in fact found that ranked games are very different this season. To some extent this is based on changes in the game since last year, but I think the overall quality of play has risen considerably.
I attribute this to the fact that there are far less players playing a role that they aren't good at. For example, top lane might have been 50% top lane mains and 50% people forced into the role, but is now like 70% top lane mains and 30% people forced into it. And the top lane mains themselves are better at top lane because they can play it over and over again, whereas before they spent a lot of ranked games playing non-top roles.
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EPT
