EPTAltec to Gravity Gaming - Page 2
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Fusilero
United Kingdom50293 Posts
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DarkCore
Germany4194 Posts
On May 19 2015 23:10 Fusilero wrote: This is realistically altec's moment. Will he be a reignover free from prison or another exposed fraud like shiphtur. Stronger and more stable team across the board, if he can't pull results now then ripperonis altec. Yeah that's true, although honestly WFX was a mess. I thought Altec was pretty good, he is talented, but it might turn into another Rekkles fiasco where the results just never come. His support is Bunny though, I consider that an upgrade over whatever was going on with WFX, Shiphtur really disappointed. When I see him on streams I think 'gosh, he's not looking to bad this game'. Then someone tabs and I see he has 50 cs at 10 minute mark and is 0/4 on Azir. He has a quality about him that suggests he's good, but he also plays horribly. | ||
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oo_Wonderful_oo
The land of freedom23126 Posts
On May 20 2015 02:31 DarkCore wrote: Yeah that's true, although honestly WFX was a mess. I thought Altec was pretty good, he is talented, but it might turn into another Rekkles fiasco where the results just never come. His support is Bunny though, I consider that an upgrade over whatever was going on with WFX, Shiphtur really disappointed. When I see him on streams I think 'gosh, he's not looking to bad this game'. Then someone tabs and I see he has 50 cs at 10 minute mark and is 0/4 on Azir. He has a quality about him that suggests he's good, but he also plays horribly. Saying that Rekkles never had results is just impressive, considering that he has gold and silver of LCS, silver of IPL 5 and bunch of Dreamhacks won. | ||
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DarkCore
Germany4194 Posts
On May 20 2015 02:38 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote: Saying that Rekkles never had results is just impressive, considering that he has gold and silver of LCS, silver of IPL 5 and bunch of Dreamhacks won. I should've phrased that better: what I meant was results with Alliance. He went in with a lot of hype, showed solid play, but also never really carried, and the team was a disappointment. | ||
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Sonnington
United States1107 Posts
Thanks for posting that link. So what were you guys saying about Apollo being better than Cop? You remember he was once called Wizfujiin right? | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
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oo_Wonderful_oo
The land of freedom23126 Posts
On May 20 2015 05:09 Numy wrote: Wizfujin was always known as a beast in CS but just completely failed to play well when he hit the LCS. After the name change and joining TIP he's been performing really well, up to the level he was meant to when he first came in. People can't realise that Apollo plays as secondary damage dealer in team with beastly topside and supports his more retarded-than-not jungler in every endeavour, while Cop is main damage source of his team, especially when Keane goes full retard. But no, we better throw everyone under same statsline. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35174 Posts
On May 19 2015 12:47 Amarok wrote: Cop is one of those players who are simultaneously underrated & overrated. He's historically been made out to be hot garbage when he's just average, which leads to people calling him underrated, which leads to people having him as their hipster "good" ADC. Someone in the rumor thread even had him at 4th best NA ADC! Even in what was probably his best split he'd be behind Sneaky, Altec, Doubleift, Turtle, CoreJJ and probably Piglet/Apollo. Sure he doesn't die a lot but he doesn't have much impact either. I'd love to see a stat which showed Cop's damage dealt to champions per minute across his career. I'm pretty confident it'd be amongst the lowest of ADCs in NA LCS history. http://www.goldper10.com/stat/1393-na-lcs-spring-2015-ad-carry-statistics.html Despite having a thoroughly average @10 gold differential, he still had the 3rd highest DPM losing out to Sneaky for second by 1.1/min and only falling behind the leader(Turtle) by 26.8.* "Sure he doesn't die a lot but he doesn't have much impact either." doesn't really apply when you're within the top 1/3rd statistically at what your position is supposed to do. It was the same situation with Sneaky back before he was forced into a carry role, except Hauntzer and Saint didn't have the carry potential last split that Balls and Meteos had before Sneaky got his props. *Not counting Keith due to lack of games | ||
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Caiada
United States3052 Posts
On May 20 2015 05:06 Sonnington wrote: Thanks for posting that link. So what were you guys saying about Apollo being better than Cop? You remember he was once called Wizfujiin right? Wiz, Altec, Rekkles and Cop are great examples of how teams can make players look bad or good depending on environment and supporting cast. | ||
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Saradin
456 Posts
Apollo takes up 23.8% of TiP's gold and in return deals 26.4% of TiP's damage. +2.6% in absolute difference, while 26.4/23.8=1.109, so about 110.9% conversion rate from gold share to damage share. Cop ate 28.4% of Gravity's gold to deal 30.9% of his team's damage. +2.5% in absolute difference, about 108.8% conversion rate from gold share to damage share. The real difference here is that as a team strategy, Cop's relied on more to get gold and deal damage. Both players here deal a bit larger percentage of their teams' damage than the percentage of farm they consume. (conversely, since shares have to add up to 100%, someone on both teams has to have lower damage share vs gold share. Ideally, it should be the support?) Oh Coast, Mash is the one ADC who outputs a lower percentage of damage relative to the farm he takes. | ||
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Sonnington
United States1107 Posts
Apollo is ridiculously overrated. Cop to TiP please! | ||
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TitusVI
Germany8319 Posts
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Saradin
456 Posts
It's *not* 'how well is this guy farming by 10 minutes into the game, compared to his counterpart within the same game' (CS differential @10). Like for last summer, IIRC, Vasilii's CS@10 wasn't particularly high, but he was good at keeping his counterpart's CS down such that he was still ahead. Conversely, Shiphtur's CS@10 wasn't bad at all, but then it's pointed out that his counterparts farmed very well against him (Shiphtur's opponents effectively CS'd like XWX against him). It's *not* 'how much gold does this guy have by 10 minutes in, compared to his counterpart within the same game' (Earned gold differential @10 which the linked article includes). After all, towers and kills/assists contribute to earned gold as well. By that measure, Apollo's fourth and Cop's 7th. In turn, that in itself is reflective of not just laning, but also ganks/early scraps, and objective play (see DoubleLift's relative massive earned gold advantage thanks to CLG's early game). Stats are fun, but there are nuances to them. When using them, one should be clear on what a stat is, what a stat says, and how to interpret it relative to the greater picture going on. | ||
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North2
134 Posts
There's 2 schools of good ADCs at any level in league of legends: the types that carry, and the types that makes sure the team carries through. Great ADCs can do both. Cop is fantastic at the latter, but there's just not enough games to tell if he can carry or not because the teams he's been in doesn't give him a good chance to show it. There's just so many moments where he's shown some huge plays but the team ended up losing anyways. If his team was just a little bit better so that they could pull in the victory, all of those games would have pretty much been due to cop's big plays turning the game around. Instead, they lost anyways so it didn't matter and most people forgot about those moments. At the very least, I'm absolutely certain he's one of the best at scrapping in a losing situation, and playing safe/solid when the team is winning. Edit: On that same token, I would probably never run a "Protect the ADC" comp with Cop. It's not because he can't carry, it's because I'm 100% certain he plays fantastic when nobody is peeling for him. If the team goes ham while leaving Cop to fend for himself and they can't get the job done, then it's always been the team's fault. I've always seen Cop get the most out of a really shitty situation for an ADC to be in. This may be why most teams decide not to give him a chance to show off his carry pants. | ||
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Sonnington
United States1107 Posts
On May 20 2015 09:21 Saradin wrote: CS@10 isn't particularly illuminating on its own. It's just 'how well is the guy farming by 10 minutes into the game'. It's *not* 'how well is this guy farming by 10 minutes into the game, compared to his counterpart within the same game' (CS differential @10). Like for last summer, IIRC, Vasilii's CS@10 wasn't particularly high, but he was good at keeping his counterpart's CS down such that he was still ahead. Conversely, Shiphtur's CS@10 wasn't bad at all, but then it's pointed out that his counterparts farmed very well against him (Shiphtur's opponents effectively CS'd like XWX against him). It's *not* 'how much gold does this guy have by 10 minutes in, compared to his counterpart within the same game' (Earned gold differential @10 which the linked article includes). After all, towers and kills/assists contribute to earned gold as well. By that measure, Apollo's fourth and Cop's 7th. In turn, that in itself is reflective of not just laning, but also ganks/early scraps, and objective play (see DoubleLift's relative massive earned gold advantage thanks to CLG's early game). Stats are fun, but there are nuances to them. When using them, one should be clear on what a stat is, what a stat says, and how to interpret it relative to the greater picture going on. I just have to point out Shiphtur's CS at 10 is also shit. http://www.gamesoflegends.com/players/liste.php?id=NA LCS Spring 2015&season=ALL&position=MID You have a good point about CS differentials at 10, but gold differential at 10 is also not so cut and dry when you take into consideration things like first blood and early towers. I intentionally used cs at 10 rather than gold at ten because it caters to fewer outside factors. There's also a point to be made that Rush wasn't particularly bot lane focused. Check out the CS at 10 between Cop and Apollo. Cop has 92 CS while Apollo has 80 CS on average. That's, what? 10%-15% more CS? | ||
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DNeon
Australia203 Posts
On May 20 2015 05:42 Caiada wrote: Wiz, Altec, Rekkles and Cop are great examples of how teams can make players look bad or good depending on environment and supporting cast. This is exactly the point I want to make. ADC is IMO the role for which results will change the most based on their surroundings. It's a role where despite playing similar champions players can still play drastically different and still win or lose with their different strategies. An aggressive playmaking ADC needs the right environment to do so or they just feed and get caught, a positioning teamfight ADC needs a team that will let them get to that point without losing and play around them. Then there's heavy farming/laning ADCs, the supportive secondary carry ADCs. I hate comparing ADCs of different styles in different environments and giving a binary good or bad/better or worse. Altec has never been in the right environment to carry so it is extremely hard to say whether or not he'll do better or worse, my problem with him is the things that Krepo said when he left EG. Altec was a part of the environmental problems in that team at the time and Gravity has a very large chance to become very volatile with both of it's veterans out of the mix. If the team is going to have a new shot caller and need to build a different environment for a carry in a position they've historically relied on then the team is going to be adjusting to some sweeping changes and I don't think they'll perform well because of this. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35174 Posts
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Amarok
Australia2003 Posts
On May 20 2015 05:30 Gahlo wrote: http://www.goldper10.com/stat/1393-na-lcs-spring-2015-ad-carry-statistics.html Despite having a thoroughly average @10 gold differential, he still had the 3rd highest DPM losing out to Sneaky for second by 1.1/min and only falling behind the leader(Turtle) by 26.8.* "Sure he doesn't die a lot but he doesn't have much impact either." doesn't really apply when you're within the top 1/3rd statistically at what your position is supposed to do. It was the same situation with Sneaky back before he was forced into a carry role, except Hauntzer and Saint didn't have the carry potential last split that Balls and Meteos had before Sneaky got his props. *Not counting Keith due to lack of games Yeah those stats were surprising. I'm willing to admit Cop had a better split than I perhaps gave him credit for. I think there were a few poorly played teamfights which have stuck in my memory. He did have that beast game on Sivir (I think against Team 8?) where he legit killed all the things in a way I've not seen him do previously. I still think lack of impact has been Cop's problem throughout his career and ultimately he's paid the price for performing that way over a longer period of time. | ||
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Saradin
456 Posts
Are there CS differential numbers for this past split yet? | ||
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Sonnington
United States1107 Posts
On May 20 2015 10:57 Saradin wrote: Hmm, I was thinking of Shiphtur in last summer, but looking at this again, my memory was off in that his raw CS@10 was bad then too. His CS differential still sucked, at any rate. Are there CS differential numbers for this past split yet? Yeah mate! The link is in my previous post. He tied Link for 3rd worst CS at 10 behind Hai and Jesiz. | ||
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