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Ambition - Behind the Scenes

Forum Index > General Forum
Post a Reply
Normal
SonuvBob
Profile Blog Joined October 2006
Aiur21549 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-04-01 07:06:27
April 01 2008 06:21 GMT
#1
In the spirit of April Fools Day, here's an insight into the twisted minds of the Men in Red.

(All dates are US time)

March 10th-13th
The day after the third TL Attack, we started discussing the idea of a Starleague. By the 13th we had most of the details worked out (TL staff + proper motivation = holy crap).

In the comments of Plexa's Ambition FE. Chill described some of the discussion that went on in those first few days:

+ Show Spoiler +
On April 01 2008 01:31 Chill wrote:
The staff put a lot of thought into the format. I'll walk you through the thought process so hopefully you can agree with us that it will work out well.

Everyone agreed we want a lot of known names in the finals. They are consistent (that's why they are known) and will provide exciting games in the final rounds of the TSL. Our goal then became coming up with a format that rewarded consistency, while having a realistic time frame.

We also fought to make sure anyone can play. This is very important in the spirit of competition and legitimacy as a foreign league. Can you imagine the OSL being invite only? It cheapens competition by adding an arbitrary amount of invitations. In the end, we decided to search for a format that is open to everyone, but rewards consistent play. I think that's why the TSL is so exciting, it's not the same 16 players you see in every league. If some unknown players or underdogs scrape their way into the top 48, that's great! I'll be cheering for them.

In having a league that's open to everyone, there are only two formats to use: Tournament and ladder. Given that there's about 1000 people signed up in 24 hours for the ICC team, running a tournament would be a logistical nightmare. So we planned a ladder.

Here is why a ladder rewards the best players. Let's assume you are going to play infinite games with a 50% win percentage, which any number of unknown foreign players could do. Once you hit A-, you lose 130 points for every game you lose, while you gain 130 for playing on MotW. Weaker players with 50% win percentages will get stuck at this point. Even if they have a slightly higher win percentage, say 55%, they will be getting so few points that stronger players should be able to get passed them during the pivotal final week. This is also helped by the shorter time frame. If the ladder was 3 months, someone could grind to Olympic Rank 10 points at a time; however, with a 3 week time frame there just isn't enough time for weaker players to achieve a rank they don't deserve.

Next we needed to solve the problem of rewarding the #1 player, to prevent people getting to #32 and then stagnating. We played with the idea of seeding, but there wasn't enough reward to warrant grinding up the last 32 places. This is why the top 16 get a bye, it gives you a reason to continue climbing the ladder even once you've secured a qualifying position.

You'll notice everything is best of 3. LDT2 is double elimination. This stops one-build wonders and all-ins from being as effective. It rewards solid play. It allows strong players who have one weaker matchup to have a better chance of getting through.

And after all that, there will be 16 solid players in the TSL.


Hot_Bid wanted to start the timer immediately, more for motivating the staff than for generating hype. So the next day PoP set the timer for noon on the 30th, EDT. I think it was originally supposed to be some other time, but time zones are so darned confusing.

We had an actual deadline now; if the timer expired and we had nothing to show for it, we'd all be burned at the stake.


March 14th
Reading the first timer discussion thread, we realized the 31st was the 10 year anniversary of Starcraft's release. The first of several convenient coincidences (and the reason for the "EE HAN TIMING" calendar message). The Starleague music lyrics were probably the biggest clue of all.

On the 14th we were discussing maps, so FA suggested a poll. (In the end we decided to stick with current maps anyway, despite our affinities for old school favorites. <3 RoV)

March 14th, 10pm
The enigmatic ConJonner makes his first post.


March 16th, 2pm
The first hype image goes up. The hype images were all pretty subtle, just lots of star references.

[image loading]

"Destiny", by pachi (from the "Ambition" news post)

One bright star that stands out among the rest. Also, the stars form a constellation:

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

Good catch, LTT!

March 16th, 8pm
Mani (I think) is a jerk, and puts up this poll, as well as posting:

I happen to know for a FACT, that there is a certain organization in Korea which is looking to form a new proteam. Could it be the same organization which recently sponsored a huge invitational tournament and have English casters? Could it be the same organization which I just recently interviewed, and they said they wanted more English content?
you know.


March 16th, ~10pm:
[image loading]

"Ambition - Reach for the Stars", by alffla

Hot_Bid wanted to hide this somewhere where it would be found fairly quickly. I make a little page for it and linked it in the bottom image on the right sidebar, but HB was convinced it wouldn't be found. I think the MSN conversation says it all:

+ Show Spoiler +
[21:53] Sonuvbob: link is up
[21:53] Sonuvbob: i give itw like 24 hrs to find it
[boring stuff removed]
[21:55] Hot_Bid: i would point the top right white to it for now
[21:55] Hot_Bid: then change it to something else for later
[21:55] Hot_Bid: i dont think someone will find it
[21:55] Hot_Bid: the bar
[21:56] Sonuvbob: you underestimate tl's free time =P
[21:56] Sonuvbob: it's right above the timer too
[21:57] Hot_Bid: [21:56] <dronebabo> http://teamliquid.net/questionmark.html
[21:56] <IntoTheWow> OPMG
[21:56] <IntoTheWow> how did you do that
[21:56] <IntoTheWow> dronebabo
[21:56] <zulu_nation8> dual skadi qop + guinsoo
[21:56] <dronebabo> the secret button
[21:56] <dronebabo> the secret button does something!!!
[21:56] <IntoTheWow> where is it
[21:56] <dronebabo>
[21:57] Hot_Bid: like 2 minutes
[21:57] Sonuvbob: rofl
[21:57] Hot_Bid: LOL
[21:57] Hot_Bid: WTFFFF


March 17th:
Hot_Bid requests a new image to be hidden.

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]
"The Greatest Show on Earth" aka "Pink Monday", by pachi


Being part notpron fan, part asshole, I made the previous image an image map with 1 pixel (199,299) pointing to the correct page. I figured I'd increase the area every few hours to make sure it was seen within a couple days. As it turned out, I didn't need to. That night, LTT wrote a script to check every pixel on the image. Conveniently, he PM'd be on IRC with updates on his plan.

Hot_Bid and Mani added some vague hints ('100 makes all the difference' and the 498 user). 498 was the sum of the pixel coordinates (199+299), and obviously a reference to SC's release date in April 1998. Or a complete coincidence, either one.

Somewhere around this time HB tried adding some hints to old calendar entries. But apparently there's a bug with editing events, where the form defaults to the current year instead of the event's year. HB didn't notice, so some old events randomly showed up in the March 08 calendar and were quickly deleted. This confused pretty much everyone, including HB.

Around the same time, this poll went up. As Yubee and Kennigit aren't exactly popular around here, I had to rig the poll a little bit. I starting adding 5 votes at a time, then 20, then 50, and culminated in adding about 500 right before LTT's script found the showmatch pic.


March 18th
I was expecting to wake up to an angry mob, but apparently my math sucks, and LTT's script didn't find the right pixel until about 2pm (coincidentally about 3 minutes after Hot_Bid reminded me about it).

Surprisingly, even after he posted the link people were more confused than angry.

Later that day ConJonner made another 5 posts, as well as a B.net account. Several other TL members tried to get in on the action, but were quickly revealed as fakes.

Kennigit manages to accidentally delete the ONE correct guess on all of TL. Way to go, Kennigit.

It was getting a little too crazy, so we decided to take a break from the hype until TL Attack.


March 23th
Yubee's hype video was shown on the fourth episode of TL Attack, and HB posted another vague image.



[image loading]

310308, by pachi.

pheer reveals it to be the work of reptilians.
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


and LTT formulates some kind of crazy red carpet/camera conspiracy.
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


IntoTheWow reveals that he is 'JonConner', but no one seems to care.


March 24th-25th
A week before, that sicko Hot_Bid came up with a new fake idea: expanding our coverage to other games. After another red herring poll went up, Xeo provided us with this sexy image:

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

and we set to work creating wc3.teamliquid.net. By the next day we had a full wc3 layout: http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/SonuvBob/tlwc3/ (all images by Xeo)

But we had no idea how to leak it. Eventually I thought I had a foolproof plan: I put the image in the topic of our staff IRC channel, and had LastRomantic 'accidentally' leak the password. IntoTheWow quickly hopped in and said hi, and I kicked him a minute or two later. Annnnd he never looked at the topic.

So eventually Mani leaked it on gg.net, and since no one found wc3.teamliquid.net in the first hour, impatient HB had someone post that there too. Oddly enough, no one bought it.


March 27th
[image loading]

"Discipline", by pachi (from the "Determination" news post)

Three days left. We stop giving clues/red herrings, and start openly taunting people.


March 30th, 9:30am
T-2.5 hours. Mani is a jerk.


March 30th, 12pm
News post goes up. Several of us post "APRIL FOOLS" in IRC and on the forums.


tl;dr: We're all jerks. Enjoy your Starleague.

P.S. Our graphics team is AWESOME

[image loading]

"Marine", by alffla

[image loading]

"Zerg Base", by SigrUn

[image loading]

"Dance Dance Dragoon", by d.arkive

[image loading]

"Mutalisk", by alffla
Administrator
GrandInquisitor *
Profile Blog Joined May 2005
New York City13113 Posts
April 01 2008 06:24 GMT
#2
wc3.teamliquid.net FOR LYFE
What fun is it being cool if you can’t wear a sombrero?
LTT
Profile Blog Joined March 2003
Shakuras1095 Posts
April 01 2008 06:27 GMT
#3
Hooray. Thanks for all the work put into the hype as well as TSL. It was just as much fun trying to figure it out as it was when the revelation finally came.
tiffany
Profile Joined November 2003
3664 Posts
April 01 2008 06:30 GMT
#4
so epic
decafchicken
Profile Blog Joined January 2005
United States20010 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-04-01 06:35:03
April 01 2008 06:33 GMT
#5
you really got my hopes up with the wc3 coverage, then gave us some BS ladder. I DONT WANT 5K I WANT WC3

edit: jk i love you all <3
how reasonable is it to eat off wood instead of your tummy?
ConJonner
Profile Joined March 2008
8 Posts
April 01 2008 06:36 GMT
#6
Jusciax
Profile Joined August 2007
Lithuania588 Posts
April 01 2008 06:36 GMT
#7
Very well planned and fun hype, gj.
LTT
Profile Blog Joined March 2003
Shakuras1095 Posts
April 01 2008 06:43 GMT
#8
On April 01 2008 15:36 ConJonner wrote:


Oh, you shush!
IntoTheWow
Profile Blog Joined May 2004
is awesome32274 Posts
April 01 2008 06:44 GMT
#9
Hahah, I got into the "staff irc" but was helping someone via query. So i leave the tab open after entering and started chatting with this guy, then irc flashes and shows i was kicked. I tried to check topic via logs, but as this is not my pc, auto-log saving was turned off.

LR even asked me if i could check the topic, but i told him i couldn't get it. I didn't try to enter again since password was leaked and i though Bob would have changed it by then!

:p

Was fun to look for it.

I was not JonConner btw, I think it was dronebabo
Moderator<:3-/-<
IntoTheWow
Profile Blog Joined May 2004
is awesome32274 Posts
April 01 2008 06:45 GMT
#10
(13:22:31) (@IntoTheWow) dronebabo
(13:22:35) (@IntoTheWow) are you ConJonner
(13:22:40) (@IntoTheWow) this is treason
(13:23:17) —› join: (betrayal) (~betrayal@p54B571B6.dip.t-dialin.net)
(13:23:49) (@IntoTheWow) lol
(13:23:53) (@IntoTheWow) how apropiate
(13:24:07) (Harem) rofl
(13:24:12) (Harem) EE HAN TIMING
Moderator<:3-/-<
iNcontroL *
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
USA29055 Posts
April 01 2008 06:49 GMT
#11
nice
paper
Profile Blog Joined September 2004
13196 Posts
April 01 2008 06:51 GMT
#12
lol @ dronebabo's 2 minute catch

iirc the secret button used to just refer to teamliquid.net? so i would sometimes click it for fun
Hates Fun🤔
IntoTheWow
Profile Blog Joined May 2004
is awesome32274 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-04-01 06:53:12
April 01 2008 06:53 GMT
#13
I remember the button working for something else, I think it was Final Edits or Blogs

edit: before they were released.
Moderator<:3-/-<
OhThatDang
Profile Joined August 2004
United States4685 Posts
April 01 2008 06:55 GMT
#14
i like alffa's work!
troi oi thang map nai!!!
Manifesto7
Profile Blog Joined November 2002
Osaka27140 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-04-01 07:20:05
April 01 2008 07:00 GMT
#15
Great great writeup. I will always remember that hype time as one of the most exciting and reckless on TL.

However, I am definitely not a jerk. That proteam captain poll was so art, it threw off so many people. I laughed so hard.

I suggest that the secret button to the ambition pic be put back in place for all time, including the coordinates and the ken vs yubee pic as a memorial for this occasion. Then, all current members make a pact to never disclose what it is about to new members.
ModeratorGodfather
Last Romantic
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
United States20661 Posts
April 01 2008 07:11 GMT
#16
god this is really funny

I fail at leaking shit
ㅋㄲㅈㅁ
SK.Testie
Profile Blog Joined January 2007
Canada11084 Posts
April 01 2008 08:18 GMT
#17
I'm a big fan of SonuvBob
Social Justice is a fools errand. May all the adherents at its church be thwarted. Of all the religions I have come across, it is by far the most detestable.
NarutO
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
Germany18839 Posts
April 01 2008 08:24 GMT
#18
Not just your graphics team is great, you all are.
CommentatorPolt | MMA | Jjakji | BoxeR | NaDa | MVP | MKP ... truly inspiring.
Zelniq
Profile Blog Joined August 2005
United States7166 Posts
April 01 2008 08:36 GMT
#19
I enjoyed that sir thanks you
ModeratorBlame yourself or God
Empyrean
Profile Blog Joined September 2004
16977 Posts
April 01 2008 10:27 GMT
#20
This totally wins :D
Moderator
Elric
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
United Kingdom1327 Posts
April 01 2008 10:44 GMT
#21
Great read! Nice one TL staff.

Meanwhile.. let's all discuss the new countdown...
NarutO
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
Germany18839 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-04-01 10:53:35
April 01 2008 10:51 GMT
#22
On April 01 2008 19:44 Elric_ wrote:
Great read! Nice one TL staff.

Meanwhile.. let's all discuss the new countdown...


New countdown is fake

Sourcecode says:
<!-- I don't want to be anything -->


kk ;D?
Edit: Come to think of it, its 1st of April. ;p
CommentatorPolt | MMA | Jjakji | BoxeR | NaDa | MVP | MKP ... truly inspiring.
jr.
Profile Joined April 2007
Slovenia41 Posts
April 01 2008 11:20 GMT
#23

274 days, 02 hours, 40 mins, 02 secs

CAN'T WAIT!

Nice1 tho
Praise Him with the strings!
Pangolin
Profile Joined March 2008
United States1035 Posts
April 01 2008 11:49 GMT
#24
The hype was fun, the payoff is even better, and all those Starcraft pictures at the end are simply amazing. Great work guys.
It's easier not to.
Manifesto7
Profile Blog Joined November 2002
Osaka27140 Posts
April 01 2008 23:04 GMT
#25
On April 01 2008 19:44 Elric_ wrote:
Great read! Nice one TL staff.

Meanwhile.. let's all discuss the new countdown...


Its gonna be HUGE
ModeratorGodfather
pachi
Profile Joined October 2006
Melbourne5338 Posts
April 01 2008 23:16 GMT
#26
On April 02 2008 08:04 Manifesto7 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 01 2008 19:44 Elric_ wrote:
Great read! Nice one TL staff.

Meanwhile.. let's all discuss the new countdown...


Its gonna be HUGE


It already is :>
Moderatorpachi fanclub http://goto.tl/6DI9 。◕‿◕。
Divinek
Profile Blog Joined November 2006
Canada4045 Posts
April 01 2008 23:19 GMT
#27
Just so you know it's actually -140 for a same rank loss at A+- ranks etc, the points chart is off for almost all A points losses by a small margin.
Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
Oh goodness me, FOX tv where do you get your sight? Can't you keep track, the puck is black. That's why the ice is white.
Equinox_kr
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
United States7395 Posts
April 01 2008 23:19 GMT
#28
On April 01 2008 15:43 LTT wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 01 2008 15:36 ConJonner wrote:


Oh, you shush!

^-^
SK.Testie
Profile Blog Joined January 2007
Canada11084 Posts
April 01 2008 23:21 GMT
#29
O shi TL.net is having a new years party!
It's obviously at Mani's house, all aboard to Japan~
Social Justice is a fools errand. May all the adherents at its church be thwarted. Of all the religions I have come across, it is by far the most detestable.
Deleted User 3420
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
24492 Posts
April 01 2008 23:33 GMT
#30
those images are totally sweet
mikeymoo
Profile Blog Joined October 2006
Canada7170 Posts
April 01 2008 23:44 GMT
#31
dammit I tried all sorts of bullshit .teamliquid.net

didn't cross my mind to try wc3. Sorry to let you guys down.
o_x | Ow. | 1003 ESPORTS dollars | If you have any questions about bans please PM Kennigit
Manifesto7
Profile Blog Joined November 2002
Osaka27140 Posts
June 25 2008 12:04 GMT
#32
On April 01 2008 16:00 Manifesto7 wrote:
I suggest that the secret button to the ambition pic be put back in place for all time, including the coordinates and the ken vs yubee pic as a memorial for this occasion. Then, all current members make a pact to never disclose what it is about to new members.


Hi.
ModeratorGodfather
MoNKeYSpanKeR
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
United States2869 Posts
June 25 2008 12:26 GMT
#33
5/5 would read again.
<3's Mani and Seraphim, thx for the second chance. TSL Name: TSL-mSLeGenD
MoNKeYSpanKeR
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
United States2869 Posts
June 25 2008 12:26 GMT
#34
On June 25 2008 21:04 Manifesto7 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 01 2008 16:00 Manifesto7 wrote:
I suggest that the secret button to the ambition pic be put back in place for all time, including the coordinates and the ken vs yubee pic as a memorial for this occasion. Then, all current members make a pact to never disclose what it is about to new members.


Hi.

doit
<3's Mani and Seraphim, thx for the second chance. TSL Name: TSL-mSLeGenD
QuietIdiot
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
7004 Posts
June 25 2008 12:34 GMT
#35
Hahaha that would be awesome.
Maybe some random VOD links too.
Elric
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
United Kingdom1327 Posts
June 25 2008 12:51 GMT
#36
I don't know about you guys but now everytime I visit TL, my mouse instinctively hovers over the now-dead-button in the bottom right... hoping for that cursor to magically change into a hand that heralds TSL Season 2.
Manifesto7
Profile Blog Joined November 2002
Osaka27140 Posts
February 27 2009 04:03 GMT
#37
On June 25 2008 21:04 Manifesto7 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 01 2008 16:00 Manifesto7 wrote:
I suggest that the secret button to the ambition pic be put back in place for all time, including the coordinates and the ken vs yubee pic as a memorial for this occasion. Then, all current members make a pact to never disclose what it is about to new members.


Hi.


Hi.
ModeratorGodfather
CharlieMurphy
Profile Blog Joined March 2006
United States22895 Posts
February 27 2009 04:07 GMT
#38
hmmmmmmmmm
..and then I would, ya know, check em'. (Aka SpoR)
MeriaDoKk
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
Chile1726 Posts
February 27 2009 04:15 GMT
#39
lol!
GHOSTCLAW
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States17042 Posts
February 27 2009 04:23 GMT
#40
glad this got bumped. It's been a while xD
PhotographerLiquipedia. Drop me a pm if you've got questions/need help.
GHOSTCLAW
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States17042 Posts
February 27 2009 04:24 GMT
#41
On April 01 2008 19:44 Elric wrote:
Great read! Nice one TL staff.

Meanwhile.. let's all discuss the new countdown...


I agree with this one
PhotographerLiquipedia. Drop me a pm if you've got questions/need help.
SpiritoftheTunA
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States20903 Posts
February 27 2009 04:32 GMT
#42
the penis that pachi put in the kennigit vs yubee bo50 waas still the greatest thing ever
posting on liquid sites in current year
Falcynn
Profile Blog Joined June 2005
United States3597 Posts
February 27 2009 04:38 GMT
#43
Holy shit, almost a year later and I never noticed that.

how the fuck?
Ideas
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
United States8085 Posts
February 27 2009 06:24 GMT
#44
lol @ bump

style
Free Palestine
Nyovne
Profile Joined March 2006
Netherlands19133 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-27 06:40:03
February 27 2009 06:39 GMT
#45
On February 27 2009 13:03 Manifesto7 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 25 2008 21:04 Manifesto7 wrote:
On April 01 2008 16:00 Manifesto7 wrote:
I suggest that the secret button to the ambition pic be put back in place for all time, including the coordinates and the ken vs yubee pic as a memorial for this occasion. Then, all current members make a pact to never disclose what it is about to new members.


Hi.


Hi.

Mani being a jerk again keke~~
ModeratorFor remember, that in the end, some are born to live, others born to die. I belong to those last, born to burn, born to cry. For I shall remain alone... forsaken.
Manifesto7
Profile Blog Joined November 2002
Osaka27140 Posts
February 27 2009 06:53 GMT
#46
I should have been banned for that one. :p
ModeratorGodfather
FakeSteve[TPR]
Profile Blog Joined July 2003
Valhalla18444 Posts
February 27 2009 07:56 GMT
#47
hello manifesto, how are you
Moderatormy tatsu loops r fuckin nice
Splunge
Profile Joined July 2008
Germany925 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-27 10:39:04
February 27 2009 10:38 GMT
#48
haha sounds like a funny time! Didnt know that you guys put so mutch efford into the hype... just awesome! Hopefully again!
Manifesto7
Profile Blog Joined November 2002
Osaka27140 Posts
October 01 2010 22:45 GMT
#49
For those who were not here back in 2008 (holy shit it was 2.5 years ago already...) TL hosted it's first StarLeague. Not content to make a news post about it, we decided to milk that baby for all it was worth.

This thread is a summary of the hype that went into the event. It is really worth a read. You can follow it up by reading Plexa's Ambition Final Edit that came out at the end of the hype period, here:

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=68707
ModeratorGodfather
Lysithea
Profile Joined February 2008
Sweden204 Posts
October 01 2010 22:58 GMT
#50
waaaaaaait a minute...

This is Manifesto7 bumping this old epic summary of a mad hunt that happened back then, does this mean what I think it means?

Oh you tl mods, did you just let us loose on a new insane hunt for nonsensible half clues?!
"Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee." - Muhammad Ali
ATeddyBear
Profile Blog Joined December 2005
Canada2843 Posts
October 01 2010 23:02 GMT
#51
OMgosh as much as I love the old savior, maybe that quote should be changed lol.
Professional twice over - an analyst and a therapist. The world’s first analrapist.
aidnai
Profile Joined January 2010
United States1159 Posts
October 01 2010 23:19 GMT
#52
On October 02 2010 07:58 Lysithea wrote:
waaaaaaait a minute...

This is Manifesto7 bumping this old epic summary of a mad hunt that happened back then, does this mean what I think it means?

Oh you tl mods, did you just let us loose on a new insane hunt for nonsensible half clues?!


If not, it is kind of a weird bump, isn't it?

TSL3 incoming?
Archas
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States6531 Posts
October 01 2010 23:28 GMT
#53
This is quite suspicious, Mani...
The room is ripe with the stench of bitches!
Seide
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States831 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-01 23:33:07
October 01 2010 23:31 GMT
#54
so http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=157427
sup? Mani referencing this al ot
One fish, two fish, red fish, blue fish.
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