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On October 09 2026 23:42 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2026 23:37 oBlade wrote:On October 09 2026 23:21 Nebuchad wrote:
So hopefully now that you wrote "by not being involved in any further wars started by people attacking it", you can now admit that you have a clear notion of why it's important whether the rest of the world adopts Israel's narrative or not. I don't. I don't see why it's important, and I still don't see why you hope it doesn't happen despite thinking it's important. I think you underestimate how much there is an objective truth that is not subject to narrative BS, which is borne out by your Ukraine example. Again, people in Ireland, Sri Lanka, Indonesia, they can think whatever they want. They thankfully have no power and no skin in the game regardless. Well it's important because the next time Israel kills a bunch of Palestinians and there's some sort of violent response, and they use that response to say "Oh no our hand is forced my god we were ATTACKED we have to go and kill one hundred thousand people now", if we're in a world where their narrative isn't centered, it's not going to play. The thing about hope is just you misunderstanding basic english that's why I didn't mention it.
You have no answer to the fact that if Hamas is bad it shouldn't matter what Israel's narrative is, countries should want to solve the Hamas issue independently. They should in fact want to solve it MORE if they really want Israel out. They should be MORE motivated by opposition to Israel to do something a new way.
You have also used the words "next time." This has implications we learned at basic English language school. Namely, that there was a previous time.
Are you really saying the slaughter of a thousand civilians on October 7th was "some sort of violent response" to Israel killing a bunch of Palestinians?
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On October 10 2026 00:02 oBlade wrote:
Are you really saying the slaughter of a thousand civilians on October 7th was "some sort of violent response" to Israel killing a bunch of Palestinians?
Obviously yeah.
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On October 10 2026 00:02 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2026 23:42 Nebuchad wrote:On October 09 2026 23:37 oBlade wrote:On October 09 2026 23:21 Nebuchad wrote:
So hopefully now that you wrote "by not being involved in any further wars started by people attacking it", you can now admit that you have a clear notion of why it's important whether the rest of the world adopts Israel's narrative or not. I don't. I don't see why it's important, and I still don't see why you hope it doesn't happen despite thinking it's important. I think you underestimate how much there is an objective truth that is not subject to narrative BS, which is borne out by your Ukraine example. Again, people in Ireland, Sri Lanka, Indonesia, they can think whatever they want. They thankfully have no power and no skin in the game regardless. Well it's important because the next time Israel kills a bunch of Palestinians and there's some sort of violent response, and they use that response to say "Oh no our hand is forced my god we were ATTACKED we have to go and kill one hundred thousand people now", if we're in a world where their narrative isn't centered, it's not going to play. The thing about hope is just you misunderstanding basic english that's why I didn't mention it. Are you really saying the slaughter of a thousand civilians on October 7th was "some sort of violent response" to Israel killing a bunch of Palestinians? Is it really a coincidence that the biggest “Israel lost all the good will they desperately needed by warring against Hamas” are also asserting that October 7th was merely a predictable “sort of violent response?”
Inasmuch as there exist parts of the world where the former is true, it also reveals the fickleness therein and the impossibility of both defending their sovereign state and pleasing that ilk. (They should still be much more transparent, even so). The world loves dead Jews and hates living ones.
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It's so stupid, I mean Hamas stated their reasons for doing October 7th.
They also stated that what they want is for Israel to disproportionately respond and lose the support from the wider world.
Anyone who supports long term good and existence of Israel in general understands that what Israel under it's leadership is doing is incredibly harmful to Israel long term, except, of course, disseminators and consumers of propaganda coming form the regime, who, in my estimation, motivated by their deeply ingrained racism can't help but cheer on incredible cruelty and destruction brought upon mostly innocent people.
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On October 10 2026 00:02 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2026 23:42 Nebuchad wrote:On October 09 2026 23:37 oBlade wrote:On October 09 2026 23:21 Nebuchad wrote:
So hopefully now that you wrote "by not being involved in any further wars started by people attacking it", you can now admit that you have a clear notion of why it's important whether the rest of the world adopts Israel's narrative or not. I don't. I don't see why it's important, and I still don't see why you hope it doesn't happen despite thinking it's important. I think you underestimate how much there is an objective truth that is not subject to narrative BS, which is borne out by your Ukraine example. Again, people in Ireland, Sri Lanka, Indonesia, they can think whatever they want. They thankfully have no power and no skin in the game regardless. Well it's important because the next time Israel kills a bunch of Palestinians and there's some sort of violent response, and they use that response to say "Oh no our hand is forced my god we were ATTACKED we have to go and kill one hundred thousand people now", if we're in a world where their narrative isn't centered, it's not going to play. The thing about hope is just you misunderstanding basic english that's why I didn't mention it. You have no answer to the fact that if Hamas is bad it shouldn't matter what Israel's narrative is, countries should want to solve the Hamas issue independently. They should in fact want to solve it MORE if they really want Israel out. They should be MORE motivated by opposition to Israel to do something a new way. You have also used the words "next time." This has implications we learned at basic English language school. Namely, that there was a previous time. Are you really saying the slaughter of a thousand civilians on October 7th was "some sort of violent response" to Israel killing a bunch of Palestinians?
You have to understand that, for a lot of the pro-Palestine movement, the Palestinians have no agency. Nothing that they do or ever did matters in the moral equation here. Not in the history of the conflict or the current iteration of it in Gaza.
Like, the fact that they rejected peace deals on the table in the 2000s and instead decided to start suicide bombing and firing rockets at innocent Israeli civilians for 20 years really doesn't matter. Hence why you get to the "Well October 7th was bad but it was understandable" line of thinking.
These people think that if we can just libel the term zionism enough, if we could just put enough international pressure on Israel through the apartheid and genocide libels, if we can somehow make Israel out to be the bloodthirsty aggressor here, then somehow Israel will back down and make concessions and everyone can live in peace.
It's a very perverse, ahistorical line of thinking that will actually make things considerably worse
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On October 10 2026 01:54 RJGooner wrote:
These people think that if we can just libel the term zionism enough, if we could just put enough international pressure on Israel through the apartheid and genocide libels, if we can somehow make Israel out to be the bloodthirsty aggressor here, then somehow Israel will back down and make concessions and everyone can live in peace.
Pretty much yeah
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On October 10 2026 01:54 RJGooner wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2026 00:02 oBlade wrote:On October 09 2026 23:42 Nebuchad wrote:On October 09 2026 23:37 oBlade wrote:On October 09 2026 23:21 Nebuchad wrote:
So hopefully now that you wrote "by not being involved in any further wars started by people attacking it", you can now admit that you have a clear notion of why it's important whether the rest of the world adopts Israel's narrative or not. I don't. I don't see why it's important, and I still don't see why you hope it doesn't happen despite thinking it's important. I think you underestimate how much there is an objective truth that is not subject to narrative BS, which is borne out by your Ukraine example. Again, people in Ireland, Sri Lanka, Indonesia, they can think whatever they want. They thankfully have no power and no skin in the game regardless. Well it's important because the next time Israel kills a bunch of Palestinians and there's some sort of violent response, and they use that response to say "Oh no our hand is forced my god we were ATTACKED we have to go and kill one hundred thousand people now", if we're in a world where their narrative isn't centered, it's not going to play. The thing about hope is just you misunderstanding basic english that's why I didn't mention it. You have no answer to the fact that if Hamas is bad it shouldn't matter what Israel's narrative is, countries should want to solve the Hamas issue independently. They should in fact want to solve it MORE if they really want Israel out. They should be MORE motivated by opposition to Israel to do something a new way. You have also used the words "next time." This has implications we learned at basic English language school. Namely, that there was a previous time. Are you really saying the slaughter of a thousand civilians on October 7th was "some sort of violent response" to Israel killing a bunch of Palestinians? You have to understand that, for a lot of the pro-Palestine movement, the Palestinians have no agency. Nothing that they do or ever did matters in the moral equation here. Not in the history of the conflict or the current iteration of it in Gaza. Like, the fact that they rejected peace deals on the table in the 2000s and instead decided to start suicide bombing and firing rockets at innocent Israeli civilians for 20 years really doesn't matter. Hence why you get to the "Well October 7th was bad but it was understandable" line of thinking. These people think that if we can just libel the term zionism enough, if we could just put enough international pressure on Israel through the apartheid and genocide libels, if we can somehow make Israel out to be the bloodthirsty aggressor here, then somehow Israel will back down and make concessions and everyone can live in peace. It's a very perverse, ahistorical line of thinking that will actually make things considerably worse
The median age in the Gaza Strip is approximately 18 to 19.5 years old, meaning that the vast majority of people who are getting killed weren't alive or weren't old enough to have any agency in anything that happened back then.
Genocide has been discussed to death so I'll skip that, but if you weren't who you are, and actually paid attention to what Apartheid is:
"committed in the context of an institutionalized regime of systematic oppression and domination by one racial group over any other racial group or groups and committed with the intention of maintaining that regime".
This is not really disputable, and you can try to throw words like "ahistorical" until you are blue in your face but that won't change the fact that Israel is doing:
1. Dual Legal Systems in the Same Territory
Israeli settlers living in the West Bank are governed under Israeli civil and criminal law, granting them full constitutional protections, due process, and democratic rights. In contrast, neighboring Palestinians living in the same geographic area are subject to Israeli military law.
2. Severe Restrictions on Movement and the Permit System
Thoroughly documented, well known, many documentaries, reports and news articles were written by folks who went there and experienced this on their own.
3. Systematic Land Confiscation and Forced Displacement
Again, no one really disputes this except people completely subsumed by propaganda.
There is much, much more, but there is no point since nothing anyone can say or write will change any of you ideologues minds.
Also, saying that Israel is the aggressor is a fact, the fact that they killed 75k + qualifies them as bloodthirsty, especially given all the information coming from IDF leaks and defectors, you can, again, throw words libel around as much as you'd like, but these are facts and no one needs to "somehow make Israel" be these things, they are those things.
Hamas, by IDF's own estimates had around 40k military members before October 7th, they killed double that amount of people and they aren't stopping.
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The median age in the Gaza Strip is approximately 18 to 19.5 years old, meaning that the vast majority of people who are getting killed weren't alive or weren't old enough to have any agency in anything that happened back then.
Thank you to both you and Nebu for being honest, seriously. I think we actually understand each other better now. I mean, I don't know how you can analyze a conflict seriously if one side has no agency, nothing they did historically matters, and if there's no responsibility for the decisions of their leadership, but it is what it is.
And before you go there, yes, I also believe that Israelis have agency and blame in the conflict and I can point to several historical examples (assassination of Rabin, advancing the settlements, effectively trying to ignore the issue of Palestinian statehood since 2008).
"committed in the context of an institutionalized regime of systematic oppression and domination by one racial group over any other racial group or groups and committed with the intention of maintaining that regime".
"By one racial group over any other racial group" is where this argument falls pretty flat on its face. If Israel were an apartheid regime, then the 2 million Arabs living in Israel would not enjoy the same rights and benefits as Israeli citizens. That isn't the case, so the apartheid libel obviously doesn't apply. Like the genocide libel it's another rhetorical trick.
The restrictions you cite in the West Bank are based on the distinction between sovereign territory and nationality, not race. If you really wanted to evaluate these restrictions in context, then you have to go back to the whole question of Palestinian agency that we've been discussing in the first place. I do think there's a serious, fair debate about Israeli policy in the West Bank and whether it is in fact counterproductive to their ultimate national interest. And I've said before on here that the terrorism conducted by Jewish settler extremists is indefensible and any sanctions related to that question that are put on Israel are well-earned.
Also, saying that Israel is the aggressor is a fact
That's not what the word aggressor means. The aggressor is the party that started the conflict. Hamas invaded on 10/7, Hezbollah started firing rockets on 10/8. We now know from captured Hamas documents that the goal of the invasion was to start a multi-front war with the goal of annihilating Israel.
the fact that they killed 75k + qualifies them as bloodthirsty,
Based on what standard?
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On October 10 2026 02:51 RJGooner wrote:
If Israel were an apartheid regime, then the 2 million Arabs living in Israel would not enjoy the same rights and benefits as Israeli citizens.
They don't.
On October 10 2026 02:51 RJGooner wrote:
The restrictions you cite in the West Bank are based on the distinction between sovereign territory and nationality, not race.
That's bad in the exact same way that racism is bad. You understand this, right?
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On October 10 2026 02:51 RJGooner wrote:Show nested quote +The median age in the Gaza Strip is approximately 18 to 19.5 years old, meaning that the vast majority of people who are getting killed weren't alive or weren't old enough to have any agency in anything that happened back then. Thank you to both you and Nebu for being honest, seriously. I think we actually understand each other better now. I mean, I don't know how you can analyze a conflict seriously if one side has no agency, nothing they did historically matters, and if there's no responsibility for the decisions of their leadership, but it is what it is. And before you go there, yes, I also believe that Israelis have agency and blame in the conflict Look on the bright side. He just said Israel has no agency in the conflict if they just bring birthrates up to shift the median age down. Send some Jewish grandmothers to South Florida at the same time and he’ll become a Zionist.
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On October 10 2026 03:10 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2026 02:51 RJGooner wrote:
If Israel were an apartheid regime, then the 2 million Arabs living in Israel would not enjoy the same rights and benefits as Israeli citizens.
They don't. Show nested quote +On October 10 2026 02:51 RJGooner wrote:
The restrictions you cite in the West Bank are based on the distinction between sovereign territory and nationality, not race.
That's bad in the exact same way that racism is bad. You understand this, right?
They do. Israeli Arabs are citizens with full equal rights who participate in the government and broader civil society. The main difference is they are not required to serve in the IDF. It is nothing like apartheid South Africa.
Yes, I understand that the situation in the West Bank is bad. You understand that there's a difference between a security regime in place because of a long history of terrorist attacks vs. one that is done based on a racist enterprise, right?
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On October 10 2026 06:36 RJGooner wrote:
Yes, I understand that the situation in the West Bank is bad. You understand that there's a difference between a security regime in place because of a long history of terrorist attacks vs. one that is done based on a racist enterprise, right?
Why do you believe that racism is bad?
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On October 10 2026 06:36 RJGooner wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2026 03:10 Nebuchad wrote:On October 10 2026 02:51 RJGooner wrote:
If Israel were an apartheid regime, then the 2 million Arabs living in Israel would not enjoy the same rights and benefits as Israeli citizens.
They don't. On October 10 2026 02:51 RJGooner wrote:
The restrictions you cite in the West Bank are based on the distinction between sovereign territory and nationality, not race.
That's bad in the exact same way that racism is bad. You understand this, right? Yes, I understand that the situation in the West Bank is bad. You understand that there's a difference between a security regime in place because of a long history of terrorist attacks vs. one that is done based on a racist enterprise, right?
Would South African apartheid or Jim Crow laws in the United States have been justified if there was frequent crimes committed to end the racial segregation?
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Are arabs treated differently in Israel? Apartheid always seems tough for me because of the boarder.
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On October 10 2026 09:09 Billyboy wrote:
Are arabs treated differently in Israel? Apartheid always seems tough for me because of the boarder.
They are, but it's nowhere near as bad as Palestinians who aren't israeli citizen. There's some systemic inequality that can be compared to the treatment of other minorities in the West, with wealth inequality and discrimination; added on top of this are the incapacity to own land in a very large percentage of the country, a few specific discriminatory laws (the OG one being the law of return from 1950. Recent examples include the citizenship revocation law for terrorism conviction or the death penalty specifically for Palestinians). I also get the sense that it is much harder to escape poor economic circumstances as an Arab Israeli than it is as an African-American (which is already quite hard), the social hierarchy is very rigid as Israel explicitly acts as a country for Jewish people first.
You can read about it here if you're interested: https://www.adalah.org/uploads/oldfiles/upfiles/2011/Adalah_The_Inequality_Report_March_2011.pdf
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I will read about it, thanks.
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EPT
