EPTQ2: how severe a threat do you guys think the virus poses ranked against all the other health problems we’re seeing: obesity, sleep irregularities, hormonal disruptions, etc and ranked against the threat to liberty?
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Amumoman
153 Posts
Q2: how severe a threat do you guys think the virus poses ranked against all the other health problems we’re seeing: obesity, sleep irregularities, hormonal disruptions, etc and ranked against the threat to liberty? Have a great day | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26225 Posts
You seem to concede that when left to pursue profit, that pharmaceutical companies may not have people’s health first and foremost in their thoughts, or media may chase number of eyes on their content rather than being too concerned that those eyes help to properly inform people. But yet you’re massively against the state as well, so what’s the check on such things? 2. Unsure, I don’t have access to alternative universes were various other courses were tried. Given how an unprecedented global effort to restrict the spread of a virus and we’ve still seen rather a lot of death and illness, I think a laissez faire approach would have seen absolute horrific suffering as a consequence. For my 50 cents, how society is structured in various domains intersects rather directly with people’s health. Obesity well, obviously, but stress-related health problems are hugely underestimated, not just as a mental health issue but it can have serious physical complications too. And well god forbid you actually have an underlying mental health problem, services are frequently impossible to access useful help, and employers aren’t always accommodating. These were all problems before Covid, the suppression measures merely expanded the number of people experiencing these problems. Anyone who works night shifts, an increasingly required thing in this age of 24/7 availability will have issues with sleep, mood irregularities etc. This isn’t to downplay these problems, or the effects of lockdown, but if God appeared to Deus Ex Machina Covid away and we returned to normal, lots of people have to deal with these health problems as a result of how they’re expected to live and survive. | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
Covid-19: France suspends 3,000 unvaccinated health workers https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-58581682 | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22046 Posts
On September 17 2021 16:48 Amumoman wrote: Most other health problems don't risk the people around you in the same way. That is imo the single biggest difference between a pandemic and the rest like heart diseases, obesity, cancer, ect.Q: do you guys think the virus situation is being exploited by politicians to further their own agendas (enriching themselves, scoring points w other politicians whose appproval they crave, undermining liberty to expand the reach of states, etc) and by pharma company shareholders who historically speaking have demonstrated little to no concern for people’s health so long as they make as much money as possible and by media companies who historically speaking have been happy to resort to fear-mongering and scare tactics to do propaganda or simply to make money? Q2: how severe a threat do you guys think the virus poses ranked against all the other health problems we’re seeing: obesity, sleep irregularities, hormonal disruptions, etc and ranked against the threat to liberty? Have a great day And obviously its being exploited. Bad/corrupt politician will keep being bad politicians with or without a pandemic. Same with businesses. Human nature doesn't suddenly change. Does that mean we should do things differently? Not more then normal. | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
Long Covid less common than feared - ONS study https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-58584558 | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States45211 Posts
On September 17 2021 16:48 Amumoman wrote: Q: do you guys think the virus situation is being exploited by politicians to further their own agendas (enriching themselves, scoring points w other politicians whose appproval they crave, undermining liberty to expand the reach of states, etc) and by pharma company shareholders who historically speaking have demonstrated little to no concern for people’s health so long as they make as much money as possible and by media companies who historically speaking have been happy to resort to fear-mongering and scare tactics to do propaganda or simply to make money? Q2: how severe a threat do you guys think the virus poses ranked against all the other health problems we’re seeing: obesity, sleep irregularities, hormonal disruptions, etc and ranked against the threat to liberty? Have a great day Q1: I don't know about pharma exploitation, but as far as politicians go, I wouldn't be surprised if some of the more intelligent, privately pro-vax Republicans just publicly tow the party line about how vaccines are anywhere from useless to a Dem conspiracy, to win/keep favor with their anti-vax supporters. Even Trump is having trouble navigating his recent statements recommending his followers to get vaccinated, because he's been against taking covid seriously for so long now and his followers don't like the change of message. Q2: I think infectious diseases can be more devastating, especially when one's neighbor is apathetic towards others, or anti-science. Of course, there are plenty of non-infectious health issues that need to be addressed, too. Infectious diseases are more of a threat to liberty, as I have a right to not have my life endangered by morons who can't be bothered to take basic safety precautions. | ||
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Amumoman
153 Posts
On September 17 2021 17:19 WombaT wrote: You seem to concede that when left to pursue profit, that pharmaceutical companies may not have people’s health first and foremost in their thoughts, or media may chase number of eyes on their content rather than being too concerned that those eyes help to properly inform people. But yet you’re massively against the state as well, so what’s the check on such things? Without a doubt — pharmaceutical companies tend to opt for products that suppress symptoms over ones that treat the root cause in a manner that does not create new problems; that pharmaceutical companies have proven time and time again that they refrain from disclosing information that would put their products in a bad light seems like a matter of fact. Now, obviously, Im not stating that all pharmaceutical companies always with every product are more harmful than helpful. There are without a doubt people who work there who earnestly are trying to come up with solutions for heqlth issues we humans face — and there are without a doubt many products that on balance do more good than harm. Same story with media. As far as keeping these unfortunate tendencies and perverse incentive structures in check, I dont dispute that there are good things being done in the name of states: regulations, oversight, and what have you. However, there’s plenty of nefarious collussion between states and companies/media taking place with all sorts of bad outcomes as a result — media acting as propaganda organs is probably the most illuminating example of this during Covid: pushing agendas without an unwavering commitment to earnest investigation and disclosure/communication of all relevant information. On balance, I’d be less concerned with pharma/media if states didnt collude with them. But ultimatively, I dont think anything beats individuals having moral integrity/taking responsibility for their own sovereignty and keeping from interacting instrumentally with other ppl (to borrow a term from Habermas). How to go about ppl clearly doing things that is harmful in that aspect, I dont have all the answers but I do believe decentralization and encouragement of people to take responsibility for their own sense-making (which includes deciding who or which institutions to trust and how fully to trust) is a good direction to go — as opposed to encouraging all the peons and peasants to have the blind trust in and deference to ‘authorities’, experts, Scientism. | ||
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Amumoman
153 Posts
Think it was perfectly appropriate to not talk much (if at all) about these things? That talking more or less exclusively about social distancing, vaccines and such was the way to go? For the record, Im not even necessarily opposed to distancing and vaccines (i just think mandates are a extremely bad precedent which i think on balance pose a far greater threat than the virus itself). I recommended my grandmother and father to get vaccinated but I am not convinced it’s the sound call for people not at risk to get vaccinated. Another edit: All that said, I do hope I am overestimating the threat to liberty and adverse effects of vaccines etc. That’d be great | ||
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Amumoman
153 Posts
On September 17 2021 18:19 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Q2: I think infectious diseases can be more devastating, especially when one's neighbor is apathetic towards others, or anti-science. Of course, there are plenty of non-infectious health issues that need to be addressed, too. Infectious diseases are more of a threat to liberty, as I have a right to not have my life endangered by morons who can't be bothered to take basic safety precautions. And who gets to be the ultimate authority on what constitutes sound basic safety precautions? | ||
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Amumoman
153 Posts
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Amumoman
153 Posts
On September 17 2021 22:29 JimmiC wrote: They are been talking about doing at that for decades, for the most part people just ignore. Governments have treid and put in some rules about it as well, the same people fighting vaxx and masks were fighting those. You are at risk. The big societal issue is you are at risk to others. The personal risk for you exists as well and is far greater than the risks of the vaccine. This is just fact know there is enough data out. Your liberty is at no more threat then if the Government decides to not let people smoke inside anymore, or lower speed limits. Our assessment of reality differs; as do our sense of what values best lead to health and flourishment of Life. How can you so categorically and hubristically postulate things like I am at risk without even knowing the circumstances of my health situation? You proclaim me to be in denial of the data while - in my estimation - denying that your postulates are merely that and not undisputable facts? It’s curious how allergic the Mind is capable of being to uncertainty. | ||
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Simberto
Germany11713 Posts
On September 17 2021 23:17 Amumoman wrote: Our assessment of reality differs; as do our sense of what values best lead to health and flourishment of Life. How can you so categorically and hubristically postulate things like I am at risk without even knowing the circumstances of my health situation? You proclaim me to be in denial of the data while - in my estimation - denying that your postulates are merely that and not undisputable facts? It’s curious how allergic the Mind is capable of being to uncertainty. I think that assessment is fair, because very single person on the planet is at risk. (Except maybe if you are living in a longterm research station in antarctica?) The level of risk you are at may vary, but there is no person who is completely without risk. There is no health situation you could possibly have that is without risk from the disease. | ||
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Amumoman
153 Posts
On September 17 2021 23:22 Simberto wrote: I think that assessment is fair, because very single person on the planet is at risk. (Except maybe if you are living in a longterm research station in antarctica?) The level of risk you are at may vary, but there is no person who is completely without risk. There is no health situation you could possibly have that is without risk from the disease. I am also at risk of getting hit by an asteroid. I meant not at risk in the every day sense of the word. Obviously, just because the data and evidence suggest that I am not at any noteworthy risk does not necessarily mean there’s a guarantee I wont get seriously sick. I thought that went without saying | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22046 Posts
On September 17 2021 21:24 Amumoman wrote: Because Covid doesn't care about you 'being healthy' outside of not being in a higher risk group cause of obesity.Q3: what do you think about how little ‘authorities’/media has focused on what can be done to improve the immune system: exercise, eating good stuff, getting good sleep, being out in sunlight/nature, being w friends/family, not worrying, etc? Think it was perfectly appropriate to not talk much (if at all) about these things? That talking more or less exclusively about social distancing, vaccines and such was the way to go? For the record, Im not even necessarily opposed to distancing and vaccines (i just think mandates are a extremely bad precedent which i think on balance pose a far greater threat than the virus itself). I recommended my grandmother and father to get vaccinated but I am not convinced it’s the sound call for people not at risk to get vaccinated. Another edit: All that said, I do hope I am overestimating the threat to liberty and adverse effects of vaccines etc. That’d be great All these things are things we should be doing anyway regardless of a global epidemic but they don't noticeably help in fighting Covid. Especially not in a short timeframe. And saying your not at risk and therefor don't get vaccinated is where you seem to lack information. The risk from the vaccine is negligible to non-existent. Most likely your going to have a sore arm or feel a little sickly for day. Those numbers you hear in your countries news everyday about how many people have been admitted to hospital or died with Covid that day? That's people like you. The elderly have gotten their vaccines, they're fine. Its the people in their 20's and 30's who are landing in hospitals now because like you they think "meh, I'll be fine". And then they're not fine, and its to late to get a vaccine and they end up fighting for their life. You fear these measures infringe on your liberty to much, I find a virus running rampant through the planets population putting myself and everyone I care about at risk a lot more threatening to my liberty then the measures that only exist because to many people are afraid of a needle. You want your freedom back? Get vaccinated so we can all go back to normal. That is how you get your freedom back. When you see countries with high vaccination % open up back remember, the only reason your country isn't doing the same is because to many people like you are refusing to accept there is a global pandemic going on that has killed millions and millions of people. | ||
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Amumoman
153 Posts
On September 17 2021 23:36 JimmiC wrote: Because every age group is at at greater risk from Covid than from the vaccine. I'm not a soothsayer, I just read the research and don't ignore the parts I don't like. Your risk comment is so lame, of course we are always at risk. Hell you're more at risk driving to your vaxx appointment then you are getting vaxxed but which one are you scared of? Life is about balancing risk and considering reward. There is more risk in being unvaccinated then there is getting vaccinated. It is also much better for society. You have a phobia and trying to make it sound like a reasonable decision, you cannot because it is not logical. This tends to people having to believe all sorts of nonsense instead of just confronting their fears. If all there were to health were not dropping death, I’d agree with your assessment. I will gladly without hesitation get vaccinated the moment I am convinced that decision is in my best interest. For now, I remain unconvinced. | ||
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Amumoman
153 Posts
On September 17 2021 23:59 Gorsameth wrote: Because Covid doesn't care about you 'being healthy' outside of not being in a higher risk group cause of obesity. All these things are things we should be doing anyway regardless of a global epidemic but they don't noticeably help in fighting Covid. Especially not in a short timeframe. And saying your not at risk and therefor don't get vaccinated is where you seem to lack information. The risk from the vaccine is negligible to non-existent. Most likely your going to have a sore arm or feel a little sickly for day. Those numbers you hear in your countries news everyday about how many people have been admitted to hospital or died with Covid that day? That's people like you. The elderly have gotten their vaccines, they're fine. Its the people in their 20's and 30's who are landing in hospitals now because like you they think "meh, I'll be fine". And then they're not fine, and its to late to get a vaccine and they end up fighting for their life. You fear these measures infringe on your liberty to much, I find a virus running rampant through the planets population putting myself and everyone I care about at risk a lot more threatening to my liberty then the measures that only exist because to many people are afraid of a needle. You want your freedom back? Get vaccinated so we can all go back to normal. That is how you get your freedom back. When you see countries with high vaccination % open up back remember, the only reason your country isn't doing the same is because to many people like you are refusing to accept there is a global pandemic going on that has killed millions and millions of people. I dont know what kind of fantasy delusion you are living in but where I live people arent paralysed by fear and hysteria and things are mostly back to normal. | ||
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Simberto
Germany11713 Posts
On September 18 2021 00:01 Amumoman wrote: If all there were to health were not dropping death, I’d agree with your assessment. I will gladly without hesitation get vaccinated the moment I am convinced that decision is in my best interest. For now, I remain unconvinced. What would it take to convince you? | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18182 Posts
On September 18 2021 00:01 Amumoman wrote: If all there were to health were not dropping death, I’d agree with your assessment. I will gladly without hesitation get vaccinated the moment I am convinced that decision is in my best interest. For now, I remain unconvinced. What about the vaccine scares you more than getting Covid? | ||
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