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On October 16 2026 06:24 dyhb wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2026 05:40 Billyboy wrote:On October 16 2026 05:38 dyhb wrote:On October 16 2026 05:31 Billyboy wrote:On October 16 2026 05:09 dyhb wrote:On October 16 2026 04:20 Billyboy wrote:On October 16 2026 04:06 dyhb wrote:On October 16 2026 03:42 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On October 16 2026 03:28 dyhb wrote:On October 16 2026 03:21 LightSpectra wrote:[quote] It depends on how you count it. + Show Spoiler +World War II was uncontroversially started in all theaters by the fascist states (Nazi invasions of Poland, France, and the USSR; Japanese invasion of China, bombing of Pearl Harbor, etc.). That's 60-75 million deaths including the Holocaust. Depending on what numbers you use for the Great Leap Forward, Cultural Revolution, Holodomor, gulags, etc., it could go higher or lower than that or be about the same. There were also non-manmade famines happening in the communist states during the 20th century which sometimes get counted as left-wing deaths even though there were famines during the Romanov/Qing periods too, so how responsible the communists should be held for those (e.g. the 1921 Russian famine) is controversial. There's also the question of if the Bengal famine of 1943 was primarily the fault of the British Empire or if that would've been avoidable if not for WWII.
or scholarship and aren't really looking for a good-faith answer anyway. We have a winner. You don’t hear a lot of left-wingers acknowledging that the soviets and communist Chinese killed several times more people than Naziism. Result: It depends how you count it. Not an easy question to answer. Any more questions, Geiko, bomsterjohn, DarkPlasmaBall? I don't know enough about the topic in general, but why don't you engage with LightSpectra's answer? LS attempted to justify an "it depends" response with some key events and relevant numbers; if you disagree so vehemently with LS, it would make sense to dispute LS's rebuttal. What is LS not considering in the evaluation of your original statement? Since the question was given that some right-wing people will argue with you on Naziism's right-wing ideology, I think including one that left-wing people will argue with you about is absolutely appropriate. If they could admit to some best-estimate or point to the clear winner and give a range, I think they would have by now, but I will accept late answers. I don't think the cognitive dissonance between "acknowledging that the soviets and communist Chinese killed several times more people than Naziism" is a super common thing" and "It depends how you count it. Not an easy question to answer" can stay forever. Sorry, but you never made the argument that left wing people pretend that communists are not left leaning. I was pointing out how a significant percentage of people on the right won’t even acknowledge that Nazi was a right wing ideology. You made some strawman that was slightly related that also wasn’t true. And for what purpose would a center left person strawman my argument? We may never know. I don't see how you can arrive at "significant percentage," but maybe there exist polls I haven't seen yet. I'd say just the right-wing-fringe of MAGA and some alt-right types would believe it. But, if we're using a very expansive definition of significant in "significant percentage won't even acknowledge" then I'll use the same on the left-wing dissembling instead of recognizing that Communist Russia and China killed more people than Naziism even did, and the number isn't even close. I would like to thank the examples in this thread, both of the refuse to answer and dissembling type, for making the point. This is purely coming from an observational standpoint of the most glaring things that each wing refuses to recognize. + Show Spoiler +For American right-wingers, I'd add the 2020 election was not stolen. I mean we’ve had multiple discussions on this site with different people claiming the Nazis were left and zero claiming communists are right. If you talk to MAGA people it will come up. Not sure what your goal here as a center left person. Do you think no one on the right believes the Nazis were communists? I assume the division here was that they wanted to argue that government direction of the economy should be assigned "left" no matter what racial or socioeconomic groups it was done to benefit or deprive, but you'll have to link me the posts. I don't think this forum can seriously be said to have a representative group of right-wingers, as they number somewhere between 1:5 and 1:20, and Introvert isn't even pro-Trump. My point was only to bring up the most accessible, problematic issue on the left-wing, and I think I demonstrated that well enough to unconvinced people. You have to understand that right-wing and left-wing are not mirror images of each other. They struggle with different things, you struggle with different things, etc. You wrote many words to not answer a thing. You weren't sure of my goal here, and I told you. It's obviously farcical to think that no one on the right believes the Nazis were communists, since I already told you that a fringe of MAGA and the alt-right believes that Nazis aren't right-wing. You have refused to answer on Nazi Germany vs Soviet Communism and Chinese Communism, calling it a "gotcha," so maybe you should start giving your opinion on whose deaths outnumber whose, or if it's simply too close to call in your opinion. I don't know why you would refuse to answer, but demand answers while doing so, except that you want to be dismissed as a troll but are too scared to come right out and say it.
What do you mean refused to answer? It’s pretty clear on raw historical numbers that the communists killed more. I hold the not controversial position that all totalitarian is horrible it doesn’t matter much if it’s left or right, that’s just branding. Democracy is what’s important, and I said it clearly. You just choose to ignore what I actually wrote and hope people don’t notice.
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doubleupgradeobbies!
Australia1357 Posts
On October 16 2026 06:50 dyhb wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2026 06:21 Simberto wrote:On October 16 2026 05:59 LightSpectra wrote:On October 16 2026 05:41 maybenexttime wrote:
I think the comparison should take into account the difference in population of the affected countries. China had a massive population during the Great Leap Forward, some 600M people. Also the time period. The fascists were in charge around 1930ish to 1945. The USSR finished the Russian Civil War in 1922 and lasted until 1991. The PRC finished their civil war in 1949 and are still in power (although they haven't truly been communist as of at the latest 1989). Fascists causing a comparable number of deaths despite ruling smaller countries for a fraction of the timeframe makes them much deadlier per capita and per annum. Why are we having some weird death-off? Can't we all agree that Nazis are bad, Stalinists are bad, and Maoists are also bad? Maybe simply say that totalitarianism in general tends to end very badly, no matter the political dressings? We don't have to decide if we want to live in Nazi Germany or Stalins USSR. We could choose to have countries which are not horrifyingly murderous dictatorships. That would be better than both of those by far. Apparently we can't agree if the Nazis killed more than the Soviets and Chinese Communists, but I count at least three people that thought that was just as easy of a question as the others. Stalin and Mao aren't deserving of any special consideration for their past actions that elevated their totals well above Hitler's, regardless of how many people in modern day will hem and haw about it when asked. I consider the question closed, and the degree of dissembling and refusal to answer as sufficiently established.
It seems to me you are forcing an interpretation of everyone's complaints of an apple to oranges comparison to mean some sort of inability to accept the numbers.
The fact of the matter is, not counting population of occupied territories (yes, this might itself be flawed methodology, given some of the occupied peoples were helping the Nazis exterminate people) the combined axis powers had less population than the Soviets, and lasted a fraction of the time either the USSR or communist/socialist China lasted.
Given that the overwhelming majority of 'deaths under left wing ideologies' are specifically Chinese deaths, 'inflicted' by the Chinese during the Great Leap Foward. Population sort of matters here.
If China had the population of Germany, the raw numbers of deaths through famine that happened simply would not have been possible.
If Nazi Germany had the population of China, they would be responsible for way more deaths, given a significant portion (lets call it around half, I'm going to count german civilian casulties not intentionally exterminated, since... well these are the expected consequences of engaging in, then losing a war) of the people killed were in occupied/contested territories, and you can obviously do a lot more killing if you have more soldiers.
This is not even taking into account the level of industrialisation/wealth of the axis powers compared to the USSR or China at the time of the bulk of these deaths.
I don't think anyone here has a problem accepting more people died under soviet Russian/Chinese rule. They have a range of problems with your methodology, from not counting the relative populations, the length of the regimes, the actual level of disparity (for instance i see you quote a 3 to 1 ratio, pretty sure those use numbers the Nazis 'killed', as in exterminated intentionally, or killed in war, rather than also counting their own military and civilian casualties as well, whereas the Communist Chinese for example, obviously did not set out to kill say, 30 million, of their own people intentionally).
Also lots of complaints here of: 'why are we having a death off.' Again, totalitarianism is bad, methodology aside, we all agree far left and far right ideologies killed a lot of people.
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