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On July 01 2026 20:01 Luolis wrote:
Trans women in sports is a massive red herring, and affects like 7 people so its weird we are spending like 5 pages on that. Ofc i can point to the studies that seem to show that trans women score worse in athletic tests than cis women after HRT, but why bother. Everyone has made up their minds anyway.
Also if we are going to ban people like Caster Semenya from sports because of some weird chromosome shit (she is absolutely a woman), then we should've banned Michael Phelps for being a genetic monster.
Studies tend to show that trans women show similar levels of fitness relative to cis women after 2-3 years of HRT while maintaining a slight residual advantage.
What doesn't change is the fact that they remain on average 10-13cm taller than the average cis woman, which in a lot of sports is a huge advantage.
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On July 01 2026 20:01 Luolis wrote:
Trans women in sports is a massive red herring, and affects like 7 people so its weird we are spending like 5 pages on that. Ofc i can point to the studies that seem to show that trans women score worse in athletic tests than cis women after HRT, but why bother. Everyone has made up their minds anyway.
Also if we are going to ban people like Caster Semenya from sports because of some weird chromosome shit (she is absolutely a woman), then we should've banned Michael Phelps for being a genetic monster.
Rightwing people love talking about trans people in sports, because it is a huge trap.
Everyone with half a brain knows that they actually want for trans people not to exist, basically as an extension of their already lost war to have gay people not exist. But they don't say that, because that isn't a winner. If they talk about trans people in sport, they can make somewhat reasonable arguments, and the people who know that this is a slippery slope and don't want to give them even an inch look less reasonable for fighting this hard about such a weird topic.
It also means you get a discussion about a topic where you can appear somewhat reasonable and not like a generally insane asshole, which is a lot harder to do for most of the other rightwing talking points.
Don't want to talk about Trumps corruption? Start talking about trans people in sports. Don't want to talk about the Iran war? Trans people in sports. Don't want to talk about your president fucking teenagers? Trans people in sports. Don't want to talk about your corruption of anything that you claim to hold dear? Trans people in sports.
It is a giant distraction horn that hits so hard because it is really hard to ignore rightwing people when they do this because we all know where it ends if you don't stop them.
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And the distraction works swimmingly.
This thread is an amazing microcosm of US politics.
Compared to almost any other topic, this one serves as the best bait, and I can guarantee you that the "centrists" here are having a field day over how riled up everyone gets, and you guys just can't help yourselves.
Call them what they are, bigots and be done with it.
George Bernand Shaw said it best in the old quote:
"Never wrestle with pigs.You both get dirty and the pig likes it."
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On July 01 2026 21:26 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2026 20:01 Luolis wrote:
Trans women in sports is a massive red herring, and affects like 7 people so its weird we are spending like 5 pages on that. Ofc i can point to the studies that seem to show that trans women score worse in athletic tests than cis women after HRT, but why bother. Everyone has made up their minds anyway.
Also if we are going to ban people like Caster Semenya from sports because of some weird chromosome shit (she is absolutely a woman), then we should've banned Michael Phelps for being a genetic monster. If they talk about trans people in sport, they can make somewhat reasonable arguments, and the people who know that this is a slippery slope and don't want to give them even an inch look less reasonable for fighting this hard about such a weird topic.
I don't understand this "don't give an inch" block mentality. Even maga nut jobs can occasionally be right on some issues (broken clock is correct twice a day).
It also seems like such a weird hill to die on. Polls show that 65-70% of americans are in favor of restrictions based on birth sex participation. Fighting this hard against this is not going to score you guys points with independent voters.
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On July 01 2026 15:44 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2026 14:34 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:
In any given sport on any particular level there could an individual that is far above the rest.
And of course there could be some women that could compete in mens sports.
But those are extreme outliers.
i don't see women competing in the sport americans spend more money on than any other: baseball. There is now a guy throwing at 105 MPH. lol the hitter starts swinging before the ball is released. Any how, they're prolly going to lower the mound to slow these guys down. When they do that women will be throwing even slower. girls stop being able to compete with boys in baseball around age 10. Elite male baseball hitters outperform elite female hitters by a very wide margin. I've already explained the pitching differences. They are massive. A guy who wanted to transport over to women's baseball would have to have his throwing shoulder, throwing elbow, and hip joint reconstructed. Someday it might be possible. There could be a day when transwomen play in women's baseball. It'll take several surgeries though. All these surgeries teenagers are getting revolving around baseball performance... its sad. THere is a bit of good news... young baseball players are avoiding Lasik eye surgery at all costs. Ambitious young hitters want 20/10 vision and they can't get that with Lasik surgery.
To be fair pitching in the top tier of baseball is probably as bad as it gets comparing women to men. And it's not like baseline men are even competetive with how much doping there is on the top level.
Still I think my point stands. Professional level is any level you get paid. Find a really good and large women pitcher and juice her up until she starts growing a beard and she will likely be able to compete in a lower division.
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On July 01 2026 22:10 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2026 15:44 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On July 01 2026 14:34 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:
In any given sport on any particular level there could an individual that is far above the rest.
And of course there could be some women that could compete in mens sports.
But those are extreme outliers.
i don't see women competing in the sport americans spend more money on than any other: baseball. There is now a guy throwing at 105 MPH. lol the hitter starts swinging before the ball is released. Any how, they're prolly going to lower the mound to slow these guys down. When they do that women will be throwing even slower. girls stop being able to compete with boys in baseball around age 10. Elite male baseball hitters outperform elite female hitters by a very wide margin. I've already explained the pitching differences. They are massive. A guy who wanted to transport over to women's baseball would have to have his throwing shoulder, throwing elbow, and hip joint reconstructed. Someday it might be possible. There could be a day when transwomen play in women's baseball. It'll take several surgeries though. All these surgeries teenagers are getting revolving around baseball performance... its sad. THere is a bit of good news... young baseball players are avoiding Lasik eye surgery at all costs. Ambitious young hitters want 20/10 vision and they can't get that with Lasik surgery. To be fair pitching in the top tier of baseball is probably as bad as it gets comparing women to men. And it's not like baseline men are even competetive with how much doping there is on the top level. Still I think my point stands. Professional level is any level you get paid. Find a really good and large women pitcher and juice her up until she starts growing a beard and she will likely be able to compete in a lower division.
as i said earlier...
the best female pitcher in the world throws at 75 MPH and her life has revolved around throwing a baseball.
i'll add this...
I'm a 38 year old lazy bum and i throw at 85 MPH. If I pitched in the CBL my ERA would be around 10. the best female pitcher had an ERA of 16 in the CBL. Guys were getting fooled by her curveball, readjusting mid swing and hitting it out of the park.
the difference between men and women at every level of baseball is massive.
the CBL is the lowest level of professional baseball in North America.
It'll be interesting to see what surgeries the medical elite come up with that might put transmen on the same level and biological men. These really are exciting time we're living in. I can't wait to see a transman on the pitching mound of a baseball game with any level of stakes to it.
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One thing we might all agree on is that folks across the gender spectrum have the ability to make up how fast their pitch is
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If I'm driving 85 mph in a car, and I drop a baseball out the window, does that count?
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Speaking of baseball players and US Government prosecutors....
This is a great decision
https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/appellate-courts/ca9/23-3214/23-3214-2025-05-29.html
The US Government can not use the details of the negotiations of a plea agreement later on if no plea agreement happens.
Yasiel Puig initially agreed to a plea deal. He changed his mind the next day before it got finalized. Federal Prosecutors wanted to use the details of the negotiations against him in the later court proceedings.
That is a win for freedom.
On July 01 2026 22:48 farvacola wrote:
One thing we might all agree on is that folks across the gender spectrum have the ability to make up how fast their pitch is
the guys in my in-laws family all throw off of a mound at over 80 mph. meh. if you are male and you've been playing since you were 6.. it ain't that big a deal.
if you are female throwing over 80 mph WITHOUT COMMITTING A BALK would make you elite.
On July 01 2026 22:50 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
If I'm driving 85 mph in a car, and I drop a baseball out the window, does that count?
if you are 6 feet tall or taller... with 1 year of practice, strength training and the guidance of any one with a basic knowledge of pitching mechanics you can hit 80 mph off of a mound.
you'd be trained to adjust your delivery to get as close to a Nolan Ryan or Tom Seaver type delivery. now you might not be deceptive at all.. but you'll hit 80 MPH.
ooh and.. you must be a biological male. i keep forgetting that part.
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On July 01 2026 22:48 farvacola wrote:
One thing we might all agree on is that folks across the gender spectrum have the ability to make up how fast their pitch is
Agreed, the bonus is they can make up a non believable anecdote about anything and do!
Added bonus is his numbers are not even correct. And likely if women’s baseball was big and most of the female athletes went into baseball and not fast pitch their record would be even higher.
Genevieve Beacom (86 mph / 138.4 km/h): While official Guinness records for women in baseball are much lower (due to limited tracking), Australian left-handed pitcher Genevieve Beacom made history in 2022 by pitching in the professional Australian Baseball League and touching 86 mph.
And you have to know I’m right because my fastball touches 100 mph on a good day, my slap shot is even harder, I throw a football 60 yards, kick a 68 yarders, I’ve been an international arms dealer with my gang when I was a teen, and am best friends with a Iranian female navy intelligence officer.
Just like a regular dude.
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On July 01 2026 23:05 Billyboy wrote:
And you have to know I’m right because my fastball touches 100 mph on a good day, my slap shot is even harder, I throw a football 60 yards, kick a 68 yarders, I’ve been an international arms dealer with my gang when I was a teen, and am best friends with a Iranian female navy intelligence officer.
my sister in law works for the US Navy. Keyamoon, who is now in Iran, and the maker of icomoon was my best friend from 2009-2012 ( might have been past htat i can not recall exactly ) when we ran the ConquerCup and CraftCup. The CraftCup was a pretty well known $100/week tournament. CraftCup was SC2 and the ConquerCup was Red Alert 3. At the height of Starcraft Mania we also had the CraftCup Lite in the middle of the week.
The ConquerCup will forever be remembered for DQ-ing , technique, in week 1. technique, the #1 C&C player on earth. man those were some good times. 
Getting 1100 people signing into our system simultaneously during the height of the CraftCup was a pretty interesting technical challenge. The details of the CraftCup can easily be verified by others around here. Those 10 round 1024 player events were hilarious.
doesn't some MOD on here also work at the same naval base? i think my sister in law was on here as Tankgirl, but has not been on here in years. She was a 1v1 gold leaguer. is this MOD lying about working at a naval base? LOL.
i hate to break it to you dawg... but not every country is like Justin Trudeau's Canada. Some nations have real actual military. and with real military you have .. you know.. actual people.
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On July 01 2026 21:26 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2026 20:01 Luolis wrote:
Trans women in sports is a massive red herring, and affects like 7 people so its weird we are spending like 5 pages on that. Ofc i can point to the studies that seem to show that trans women score worse in athletic tests than cis women after HRT, but why bother. Everyone has made up their minds anyway.
Also if we are going to ban people like Caster Semenya from sports because of some weird chromosome shit (she is absolutely a woman), then we should've banned Michael Phelps for being a genetic monster. Rightwing people love talking about trans people in sports, because it is a huge trap. Everyone with half a brain knows that they actually want for trans people not to exist, basically as an extension of their already lost war to have gay people not exist. But they don't say that, because that isn't a winner. If they talk about trans people in sport, they can make somewhat reasonable arguments, and the people who know that this is a slippery slope and don't want to give them even an inch look less reasonable for fighting this hard about such a weird topic. It also means you get a discussion about a topic where you can appear somewhat reasonable and not like a generally insane asshole, which is a lot harder to do for most of the other rightwing talking points. Don't want to talk about Trumps corruption? Start talking about trans people in sports. Don't want to talk about the Iran war? Trans people in sports. Don't want to talk about your president fucking teenagers? Trans people in sports. Don't want to talk about your corruption of anything that you claim to hold dear? Trans people in sports. It is a giant distraction horn that hits so hard because it is really hard to ignore rightwing people when they do this because we all know where it ends if you don't stop them.
You are talking about right wingers talking about things, instead of talking about, say, solving world hunger. So sad.
This stemmed from a SCOTUS decision, i.e., actual politics. Ripped from the headlines. Otherwise the minute you get any new information whatsoever about "your president fucking teenagers" bring it here immediately.
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On July 01 2026 22:57 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Sure. Totally. Right.
Good choice, you don’t want to mess with someone in the top 99.9% of hard throwing. I can because I chose faster, but you goto be careful.
Fewer than 0.1% of all men can throw a baseball 85 mph.While a 85 mph fastball is standard for lower-level college baseball, it requires an extraordinary combination of rare genetic physical traits, specialized biomechanics, and years of dedicated training.Breaking Down the MathThe vast majority of the male population cannot even approach this speed:The Average Untrained Man: The average adult male throws a baseball between 45 and 55 mph.The Former High School Player: An athletic man who played youth baseball but no longer trains typically maxes out between 60 and 70 mph.High School Varsity Pitchers: Even among teenagers actively training and pitching on high school varsity teams, the average velocity sits around 75 to 80 mph. Reaching 85 mph puts a high school pitcher in the upper echelon of competitive teenage athletes.Why is 85 mph So Rare?Rotational Power: Throwing 85+ mph demands immense hip-to-shoulder separation.Arm Speed: The human arm must rotate at over 7,000 degrees per second.Kinetic Chain: Force must transfer perfectly from the legs, through the core, and out the fingertips.Injury Threshold: Without specific conditioning, the connective tissues in an untrained shoulder or elbow will fail before reaching this velocity.
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On July 01 2026 23:34 Billyboy wrote:Good choice, you don’t want to mess with someone in the top 99.9% of hard throwing. I can because I chose faster, but you goto be careful. Show nested quote + Fewer than 0.1% of all men can throw a baseball 85 mph.While a 85 mph fastball is standard for lower-level college baseball, it requires an extraordinary combination of rare genetic physical traits, specialized biomechanics, and years of dedicated training.Breaking Down the MathThe vast majority of the male population cannot even approach this speed:The Average Untrained Man: The average adult male throws a baseball between 45 and 55 mph.The Former High School Player: An athletic man who played youth baseball but no longer trains typically maxes out between 60 and 70 mph.High School Varsity Pitchers: Even among teenagers actively training and pitching on high school varsity teams, the average velocity sits around 75 to 80 mph. Reaching 85 mph puts a high school pitcher in the upper echelon of competitive teenage athletes.Why is 85 mph So Rare?Rotational Power: Throwing 85+ mph demands immense hip-to-shoulder separation.Arm Speed: The human arm must rotate at over 7,000 degrees per second.Kinetic Chain: Force must transfer perfectly from the legs, through the core, and out the fingertips.Injury Threshold: Without specific conditioning, the connective tissues in an untrained shoulder or elbow will fail before reaching this velocity.
firstly,
it might be strange to you, in Canada, that the US Navy employs 87 bazillion people... and i know one of them.
secondly,
in the USA, for people who have access to proper coaching and are over 6 feet tall and.. they can hit 80 MPH OFF OF A MOUND. it'd take about a year of dedicated practice and exercise. Also, i said off of a mound at least 10 times.
about 8% of PEOPLE are 6 feet tall or taller.. and the USA is one of the tallest nations on earth.
and it also might be strange to you.. but there are entire families in the USA who play baseball every year from age 6 to age 18. Amongst these families any guy that can hit 80 mph is considered hard.. but it is not some unimaginable miracle.
: Even among teenagers actively training and pitching on high school varsity teams, the average velocity sits around 75 to 80 mph.
BINGO. how many of these pitchers are over 6 feet tall? should they pursue baseball beyond high school their strength, power, and velocity will only rise. they won't throw slower in their early 20s unless something is very wrong health wise. I threw at about 80mph in high school. i am bigger and stronger than i was then. meh.
any how dawg, its been in slice. my screen time for today is over. thanks for proving my point.
Interestingly, I lost my starting pitching job to a big giant fat guy who had a body like Dave "Boomer" Wells.
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Your fantasy world could be a magical place, if you kept the hate out of it!
Still waiting on the video! Pretty easy with a phone to hit your backyard and give us a few hard throws.
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Northern Ireland27464 Posts
I dunno how one finds the time to hone an 85MPH fastball while nicking like 10,000 dollars worth of DnD merchandise, it’s rather impressive!
Back to the topic at hand, it’s a shame I don’t have the podcast to share (paywalled) but it was on this topic. At present, somewhat understandably so given it’s only relatively such a hot topic, there are big gaps in research in how much athletic advantage an MTF trans person potentially maintains post-transition and for how long. And attributes like endurance, strength or explosivity won’t necessarily be affected in unison.
Which may impact things in terms of which sports you could, or could not have trans athletes competing at elite levels in terms of some kind of advantage, or not.
Ultra marathons are, to my knowledge a rare sporting endeavour where women have an advantage over men. They tend to be lighter, both in musculature and bone density, and tend to be shorter. This isn’t enough to overcome male advantage at regular marathon distance, but becomes impactful at insane ultra marathon distances. So, presumably an MtF trans person could compete in that category without competitive advantage.
I think a lot also depends on the level and the stakes on it. My partner used to go to Gaelic football in a league ostensibly for mothers returning to some sport, but in actuality was basically a league for people playing casually, many of whom were not remotely in shape for a bit of fun. I have asked her what she thought and what she thinks others would have thought if an out of shape, casual player turned up who was trans and she’d have no issue with them playing and doesn’t think others would either.
I think it’s only really when you get to a high level people start to have much of an issue about it. Pro, high collegiate in the States (college sportsaren’t really remotely as big elsewhere), or being an Olympic hopeful, that kind of thing.
Then it becomes rather tricky, I’m not sure there even is a solution here that’s fair to all involved.
Although I will also add that trans people in sport, or trans people in general are massively, massively thrown to the front of various political culture wars, and disproportionately so
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Sigh are we actually disputing that some college male athlete throwing above 80 mph would be an immediate Guinness World Book of Records if it was thrown by a woman? If you don’t try to paper over sex differences, this is a delicate case of inclusion weighed against fairness. If you start equivocating on the biology, you’re digging yourself a hole.
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Northern Ireland27464 Posts
On July 01 2026 23:55 Billyboy wrote:
Your fantasy world could be a magical place, if you kept the hate out of it!
Still waiting on the video! Pretty easy with a phone to hit your backyard and give us a few hard throws.
It doesn’t quite translate, very different mechanical actions. You really don’t see any cricketers who can bowl high 70s thru low 80s in grass roots cricket who haven’t played internationally or been on the books of a professional English county.
For one thing the action is rather rough on the body, even though it’s considered ‘fast-medium’ and not genuine fast bowling. For a baseball pitcher it’s the rotator cuff, for the fast bowler it’s the back, or their leading leg, the latter of which has to load about 4x the bowler’s body weight in force upon it.
Rare is the pro fast bowler who can stay perpetually fit, it’s not a good action on the body. And they’re pros, who tune their bodies to do this, and have coaching and physios to help them.
Amateurs have none of this, so they don’t tend to even try to push the pace as their bodies simply can’t handle it.
They can bowl ‘military medium’ which is something of a pejorative when talking about the highest level, because it’s rarely useful unless the conditions aid swing, around 70-75MPH. Not much slower than the very quickest female quicks, but slower nonetheless.
Anyway, I know cricket better than baseball, indeed I personally know some internationals.
If you wanna bowl even high 70s thru low 80s you need either explosive twitch fibre power, or great technique. Ideally both. But if you’re doing that in your own time, someone will notice you and recruit you in some fashion. Because people who’ve never been formally attached to a cricket club bowling 80+ is mental, it doesn’t really tend to happen without playing, without coaching out the kinks etc.
If Jimmy had played high level high school and a bit of college baseball or whatever, an 85MPH fastball is not that unbelievable. It’s high insistence he just rocks up for a barbecue with his guido friends and starts pissing out 85MPH fastballs before switching to making Seinfeld references that stretches it.
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