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On December 20 2022 08:20 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2022 06:58 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
Speaking of... referrals of criminal charges. Should anything actually happen I'll be amazed. DOJ is in a tough spot. I think whatever they choose is going to be an important historical event that'll likely get blamed for a lot of problems in the future.
They really only have 2 options but I get what you're saying. They can either go after Trump and risk the ire of his cult or let him off and risk the ire of the general population. I think, if what Garland has done so far is any indication, he'll go after it, but ultimately nothing will come of it. Either the Dems lose in 2024 and he gets replaced and the investigation/charges dropped or trump is pardoned, or the DOJ convicts (which will be the most lengthy trial ever) and trump is pardoned. Either way, someone will go down other than trump but he'll be barred from holding office (hell, he can barely own/operate a business as is).
Here's to seeing how it all plays out I guess.
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United States44450 Posts
There’s likely a political calculus. If Trump is charged then the Republicans won’t run him as a candidate but will also run 24/7 on their persecution narrative which is their favourite narrative in the world. If he isn’t charged then Trump will try for the nomination and will go scorched earth on any Republican who opposes him.
It sucks but I think the Democrats will be cynical on this one.
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On December 20 2022 10:25 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2022 08:20 GreenHorizons wrote:On December 20 2022 06:58 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
Speaking of... referrals of criminal charges. Should anything actually happen I'll be amazed. DOJ is in a tough spot. I think whatever they choose is going to be an important historical event that'll likely get blamed for a lot of problems in the future. They really only have 2 options but I get what you're saying. They can either go after Trump and risk the ire of his cult or let him off and risk the ire of the general population. I think, if what Garland has done so far is any indication, he'll go after it, but ultimately nothing will come of it. Either the Dems lose in 2024 and he gets replaced and the investigation/charges dropped or trump is pardoned, or the DOJ convicts (which will be the most lengthy trial ever) and trump is pardoned. Either way, someone will go down other than trump but he'll be barred from holding office (hell, he can barely own/operate a business as is). Here's to seeing how it all plays out I guess. Not just the ire of the general population, but also the precedent set for future direct attacks on elections, democracy and the constitution.
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On December 21 2022 00:04 plasmidghost wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2022 19:04 Gorsameth wrote:On December 20 2022 10:25 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On December 20 2022 08:20 GreenHorizons wrote:On December 20 2022 06:58 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
Speaking of... referrals of criminal charges. Should anything actually happen I'll be amazed. DOJ is in a tough spot. I think whatever they choose is going to be an important historical event that'll likely get blamed for a lot of problems in the future. They really only have 2 options but I get what you're saying. They can either go after Trump and risk the ire of his cult or let him off and risk the ire of the general population. I think, if what Garland has done so far is any indication, he'll go after it, but ultimately nothing will come of it. Either the Dems lose in 2024 and he gets replaced and the investigation/charges dropped or trump is pardoned, or the DOJ convicts (which will be the most lengthy trial ever) and trump is pardoned. Either way, someone will go down other than trump but he'll be barred from holding office (hell, he can barely own/operate a business as is). Here's to seeing how it all plays out I guess. Not just the ire of the general population, but also the precedent set for future direct attacks on elections, democracy and the constitution. To be fair, no matter what the Dems decide to do, the GOP will weaponize the Justice Department the next chance they get. Might as well go for it
Yeah, the "GOP will do X bad thing in response" arguments don't really work. GOP will do the bad thing anyways if they think it benefits them in any way. There is no way they will ever say something like "Well, they showed restraint, so we will be nice now"
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United States24813 Posts
And all he has to do then is wink at the camera and his followers will think he makes 5,000% of what's reported and just doesn't report it because he's a sly businessman. Why they like that, I don't know.
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On December 21 2022 10:11 plasmidghost wrote:
Adding it here: Tomorrow, it looks like Zelensky will give a speech to Congress. Pelosi's asked everyone to be physically present. I do wonder if Zelensky will push for a massive amount of aid from the US at once so the war decisively ends next year, since I saw in the budget package that Ukraine's getting Patriot systems and guided bombs
He can ask for whatever he wants. What he needs are boots on the ground. And he'll never get that. Ukraine has gotten an insane amount of money and materiel from a lot of people. They need people. They're not getting people. So anything he asks for, as to be something materiel that he doesn't have. He's not getting planes. He's not getting a navy. He's just going to get what he's already gotten. I support the fight, but what he needs, he won't get.
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He has no modern Tanks and more anti air stuff could allways help I guess?
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On December 21 2022 12:41 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2022 10:11 plasmidghost wrote:Adding it here: Tomorrow, it looks like Zelensky will give a speech to Congress. Pelosi's asked everyone to be physically present. I do wonder if Zelensky will push for a massive amount of aid from the US at once so the war decisively ends next year, since I saw in the budget package that Ukraine's getting Patriot systems and guided bombs https://twitter.com/axios/status/1605318984710201345 He can ask for whatever he wants. What he needs are boots on the ground. And he'll never get that. Ukraine has gotten an insane amount of money and materiel from a lot of people. They need people. They're not getting people. So anything he asks for, as to be something materiel that he doesn't have. He's not getting planes. He's not getting a navy. He's just going to get what he's already gotten. I support the fight, but what he needs, he won't get.
Where do you have this information from? Ukraine has up to a million soldiers including reservists. Equipping and training them matters more than sheer numbers.
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On December 21 2022 16:08 Slydie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2022 12:41 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On December 21 2022 10:11 plasmidghost wrote:Adding it here: Tomorrow, it looks like Zelensky will give a speech to Congress. Pelosi's asked everyone to be physically present. I do wonder if Zelensky will push for a massive amount of aid from the US at once so the war decisively ends next year, since I saw in the budget package that Ukraine's getting Patriot systems and guided bombs https://twitter.com/axios/status/1605318984710201345 He can ask for whatever he wants. What he needs are boots on the ground. And he'll never get that. Ukraine has gotten an insane amount of money and materiel from a lot of people. They need people. They're not getting people. So anything he asks for, as to be something materiel that he doesn't have. He's not getting planes. He's not getting a navy. He's just going to get what he's already gotten. I support the fight, but what he needs, he won't get. Where do you have this information from? Ukraine has up to a million soldiers including reservists. Equipping and training them matters more than sheer numbers.
And where are they going to get the training? They already have and will get the materiel they need. So Ukraine will ship out it's personnel to receive training in Poland and then send them back? Poland wouldn't risk it. They won't send them to the US as that's just as risky. The point is they need people who can utilize all of that materiel very effectively but the rest of the world won't openly commit to that. Give them Patriot missiles and hope someone in Ukraine is familiar with the usage? I'd imagine those Zoom/Skype meetings are deathly boring.
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On December 21 2022 17:09 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2022 16:08 Slydie wrote:On December 21 2022 12:41 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On December 21 2022 10:11 plasmidghost wrote:Adding it here: Tomorrow, it looks like Zelensky will give a speech to Congress. Pelosi's asked everyone to be physically present. I do wonder if Zelensky will push for a massive amount of aid from the US at once so the war decisively ends next year, since I saw in the budget package that Ukraine's getting Patriot systems and guided bombs https://twitter.com/axios/status/1605318984710201345 He can ask for whatever he wants. What he needs are boots on the ground. And he'll never get that. Ukraine has gotten an insane amount of money and materiel from a lot of people. They need people. They're not getting people. So anything he asks for, as to be something materiel that he doesn't have. He's not getting planes. He's not getting a navy. He's just going to get what he's already gotten. I support the fight, but what he needs, he won't get. Where do you have this information from? Ukraine has up to a million soldiers including reservists. Equipping and training them matters more than sheer numbers. And where are they going to get the training? They already have and will get the materiel they need. So Ukraine will ship out it's personnel to receive training in Poland and then send them back? Poland wouldn't risk it. They won't send them to the US as that's just as risky. The point is they need people who can utilize all of that materiel very effectively but the rest of the world won't openly commit to that. Give them Patriot missiles and hope someone in Ukraine is familiar with the usage? I'd imagine those Zoom/Skype meetings are deathly boring.
Poland has already offered to train 12,000 troops on their own soil
https://www.npr.org/2022/10/16/1129367253/european-union-training-ukrainian-soldiers-russia
The US is also currently training Ukrainian soldiers and looking to expand that training
https://www.defense.gov/News/News-Stories/Article/Article/3248075/us-plans-combined-arms-training-for-ukrainian-soldiers/
The UK is also training 10,000 troops over the course of 120 days
https://www.defensenews.com/training-sim/2022/08/15/see-ukrainian-troops-go-through-urban-combat-training-in-the-uk/
It's really not a question of if NATO is willing to train Ukrainian troops but more a question of how many troops are they willing to train.
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There has already been a lot of training of Ukrainian soldiers both completed and ongoing in different countries. Including UK and US. This includes both training in usage of equipment provided and more basic soldier skills. There is probably also a lot of it happening in Poland, but this is understandably not disclosed to public.
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On December 21 2022 09:52 micronesia wrote:
And all he has to do then is wink at the camera and his followers will think he makes 5,000% of what's reported and just doesn't report it because he's a sly businessman. Why they like that, I don't know. Because America has no poor people, just temporarily embarrassed millionaires.
They love rich people gaming the system because they imagine one day it will be them doing it. And yes that is utterly bullshit but its the lie they, and American society, has sold themselves.
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On December 21 2022 17:36 Silvanel wrote:
There has already been a lot of training of Ukrainian soldiers both completed and ongoing in different countries. Including UK and US. This includes both training in usage of equipment provided and more basic soldier skills. There is probably also a lot of it happening in Poland, but this is understandably not disclosed to public.
On December 21 2022 17:30 StasisField wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2022 17:09 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On December 21 2022 16:08 Slydie wrote:On December 21 2022 12:41 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On December 21 2022 10:11 plasmidghost wrote:Adding it here: Tomorrow, it looks like Zelensky will give a speech to Congress. Pelosi's asked everyone to be physically present. I do wonder if Zelensky will push for a massive amount of aid from the US at once so the war decisively ends next year, since I saw in the budget package that Ukraine's getting Patriot systems and guided bombs https://twitter.com/axios/status/1605318984710201345 He can ask for whatever he wants. What he needs are boots on the ground. And he'll never get that. Ukraine has gotten an insane amount of money and materiel from a lot of people. They need people. They're not getting people. So anything he asks for, as to be something materiel that he doesn't have. He's not getting planes. He's not getting a navy. He's just going to get what he's already gotten. I support the fight, but what he needs, he won't get. Where do you have this information from? Ukraine has up to a million soldiers including reservists. Equipping and training them matters more than sheer numbers. And where are they going to get the training? They already have and will get the materiel they need. So Ukraine will ship out it's personnel to receive training in Poland and then send them back? Poland wouldn't risk it. They won't send them to the US as that's just as risky. The point is they need people who can utilize all of that materiel very effectively but the rest of the world won't openly commit to that. Give them Patriot missiles and hope someone in Ukraine is familiar with the usage? I'd imagine those Zoom/Skype meetings are deathly boring. Poland has already offered to train 12,000 troops on their own soil https://www.npr.org/2022/10/16/1129367253/european-union-training-ukrainian-soldiers-russiaThe US is also currently training Ukrainian soldiers and looking to expand that training https://www.defense.gov/News/News-Stories/Article/Article/3248075/us-plans-combined-arms-training-for-ukrainian-soldiers/The UK is also training 10,000 troops over the course of 120 days https://www.defensenews.com/training-sim/2022/08/15/see-ukrainian-troops-go-through-urban-combat-training-in-the-uk/It's really not a question of if NATO is willing to train Ukrainian troops but more a question of how many troops are they willing to train.
I stand informed. Thank you for the links.
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Also noteworthy, training in the UK at least is a combined international effort. Finland just confirmed that the instructors sent there (~20) will stay until end of 2023. I don't actually know if it is all bilaterals or is it organised under some JEF or similar, but it's another channel of European aid that occasionally gets forgotten about when talking about aid.
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On December 21 2022 22:28 Oukka wrote:
Also noteworthy, training in the UK at least is a combined international effort. Finland just confirmed that the instructors sent there (~20) will stay until end of 2023. I don't actually know if it is all bilaterals or is it organised under some JEF or similar, but it's another channel of European aid that occasionally gets forgotten about when talking about aid. yeah its a combination of Denmark, Dutch, Finland, Canadian, Sweden, New Zealand and obviously the UK themselves.
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United States44450 Posts
On December 21 2022 22:56 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2022 22:28 Oukka wrote:
Also noteworthy, training in the UK at least is a combined international effort. Finland just confirmed that the instructors sent there (~20) will stay until end of 2023. I don't actually know if it is all bilaterals or is it organised under some JEF or similar, but it's another channel of European aid that occasionally gets forgotten about when talking about aid. yeah its a combination of Denmark, Dutch, Finland, Canadian, Sweden, New Zealand and obviously the UK themselves.
On Salisbury Plain. I grew up on the Plain, it’s a beautiful green landscape of rolling chalk hills that was given to the army for training a century ago. It’s designed for exactly this scenario, if the UK went into total war and had to increase its army to a million men then Salisbury Plain is where they would train them. Dozens of little WW2 era camps which are mostly empty but have barracks, electricity, septic, and if fill up the propane tank, heating/cooking. Artillery ranges, tank courses, shitloads of trucks and land rovers in storage, plus more specialized facilities for urban warfare simulations and the like.
They’re rotating a division of Ukrainians through the Plain at a time, though I suspect they could do more if they needed. There’s a multinational coalition of trainers hosted there to join the British effort and my belief is that the troops that come out of that training would be fit, well fed, motivated, and skilled in combined arms operations. In addition to 20 years just living on the Plain I did some time in the ROTC and trained out of Knook Camp which is one of many small camps on the Plain.
On a personal note I also enjoy recalling that the city of Salisbury, located on Salisbury Plain, is where Putin ordered a chemical weapon attack a few years ago. British citizens were killed and although the FSB assassins were identified Russia refused to turn them over. That Salisbury Plain is now host to an international coalition dedicated to training Ukrainians on killing Russians is peak fuck around and find out energy.
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On December 21 2022 22:56 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2022 22:28 Oukka wrote:
Also noteworthy, training in the UK at least is a combined international effort. Finland just confirmed that the instructors sent there (~20) will stay until end of 2023. I don't actually know if it is all bilaterals or is it organised under some JEF or similar, but it's another channel of European aid that occasionally gets forgotten about when talking about aid. yeah its a combination of Denmark, Dutch, Finland, Canadian, Sweden, New Zealand and obviously the UK themselves.
And Norway 
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EPT
