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On December 01 2019 09:43 Wombat_NI wrote:
I don’t believe GH or Daunt are particularly bullies, GH is radical politically by most standards, and Daunt is by the general sensibilities of this thread.
I appreciate it's difficult to see past this fact. Just... in future, or looking at conversations in the past, when GreenHorizons gets into conversations of an antagonistic nature look at who is more likely to be winding up whom.
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Where exactly was GH being a bully in this exchange? All I see is a very silly misunderstanding, GH trying to explain himself (even if you didn't knew GH, it was crystal clear what he meant if you read the context of the discussion that was going on) and peaced out from the discussion. Then it's been a few people trying to explain DMCD that he was wrong, and he just couldn't let go.
Also, I would paint Danglars's interactions in these threads as the opposite of being a bully, more like being bullied sometimes for stuff that he didn't deserve. It's like the people who couldn't help themselves to be extremely abrasive towards the conservatives left in the thread, now there are almost none, have to find somebody else posts to misconstrue. Like Jimmi calling out GH for supporting genocide.
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On December 01 2019 09:49 Godwrath wrote:
Where exactly was GH being a bully in this exchange?
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On November 30 2019 22:39 GreenHorizons wrote:
Are you okay?
On November 30 2019 22:46 GreenHorizons wrote:
I doubt it's my edits that made your post "not make any sense".
On November 30 2019 22:59 GreenHorizons wrote:...
I'm just going to let you have whatever moment you're having.
... none of which was offset by any significant attempt to defuse the situation.
Although to be honest GreenHorizons has wound up DMCD so thoroughly in the past he almost didn't have to do anything at all here. Anyone who hasn't followed this thread and its predecessor relatively closely for years, and remembering this sort of stuff in particular, may have more difficulty seeing the pattern.
On December 01 2019 09:49 Godwrath wrote:
...It's like the people who couldn't help themselves to be extremely abrasive towards the conservatives left in the thread, now there are almost none, have to find somebody else posts to misconstrue.
This is a phenomenon as well, but an independent one.
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On December 01 2019 09:53 Aquanim wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2019 09:49 Godwrath wrote:
Where exactly was GH being a bully in this exchange?
... Show nested quote +On November 30 2019 22:46 GreenHorizons wrote:
I doubt it's my edits that made your post "not make any sense". Show nested quote +On November 30 2019 22:59 GreenHorizons wrote:...
I'm just going to let you have whatever moment you're having.
... and more generally not going to any effort whatsoever to defuse the situation. Although to be honest GreenHorizons has wound up DMCD so thoroughly in the past he almost didn't have to do anything at all here. Anyone who haven't followed this thread and its predecessor relatively closely for years, and remembering this sort of stuff in particular, may have more difficulty seeing the pattern.
Well, we read them in a completely different tone. That's the point. I mean I even see the responses as polite enough for the kind of misconstruction that DMCD went for.
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Northern Ireland26301 Posts
On December 01 2019 09:48 Aquanim wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2019 09:43 Wombat_NI wrote:
I don’t believe GH or Daunt are particularly bullies, GH is radical politically by most standards, and Daunt is by the general sensibilities of this thread. I appreciate it's difficult to see past this fact. Just... in future, or looking at conversations in the past, when GreenHorizons gets into conversations of an antagonistic nature look at who is more likely to be winding up whom.
Winding up isn’t being a bully. Can be being a troll or an avowed iconoclast.
Be it in high school or in the workplace a bully is only able to do their work because they hold a power and social cachet over the group and exert it in their favour.
Within the confines of this particular group does this describe GH at all?
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This really should be website feedback by now. I have plenty of issues with GH's politics and manner and even I can see this was a relatively innocuous comment being honestly misread and then aggressively doubled down against.
Quick, someone post a Trump tweet so we have something else to disagree with
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On December 01 2019 10:05 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2019 09:48 Aquanim wrote:On December 01 2019 09:43 Wombat_NI wrote:
I don’t believe GH or Daunt are particularly bullies, GH is radical politically by most standards, and Daunt is by the general sensibilities of this thread. I appreciate it's difficult to see past this fact. Just... in future, or looking at conversations in the past, when GreenHorizons gets into conversations of an antagonistic nature look at who is more likely to be winding up whom. Winding up isn’t being a bully. Can be being a troll or an avowed iconoclast.
Winding up for the purpose of making other people look bad (as GH frequently does) as opposed to cheap giggles (as a troll would) makes one a bully. GH might also be an iconoclast but "a person who attacks or criticizes cherished beliefs or institutions" does not have any direct bearing on the personal winding up of others.
Be it in high school or in the workplace a bully is only able to do their work because they hold a power and social cachet over the group and exert it in their favour.
Within the confines of this particular group does this describe GH at all?
Yes. He may be unpopular with a fairly wide swathe of the regular posters but he clearly has a lot of social cachet with a significant fraction (including at least one person with site powers, whether or not Drone actively uses them), who are willing to come out and defend him whenever he skirts close to the line. Furthermore his sheer willingness to argue for days on end and generally deny other people satisfaction gives him power also.
edit:
On December 01 2019 10:10 Belisarius wrote:
This really should be website feedback by now.
I thought about it but my intention here is to bring this to the attention of other users, not the mods (the latter being what Website Feedback is for). Most meta-conversation probably belongs in Website Feedback but I'm not sure this does.
...this was a relatively innocuous comment being honestly misread and then aggressively doubled down against.
I more or less agree with this; I am just putting forward my position as to the underlying reason why the aggressive doubling down and resulting fallout occurred, and the related ongoing pattern.
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On December 01 2019 10:23 JimmiC wrote:
I know you've made it your mission to follow me around and be a jerk to me. But if you can not bring me up in random fights I have nothing to with that would be appreciated. It is enough having to deal with you being a jerk when I'm posting. I don't think I should also have to deal with it when I have not.
I brought up your name first in that conversation, for which I apologise. Perhaps I should have just left it at zlefin, even though some people reading this conversation won't have been active before he was banned.
(That being said I don't know if Nebuchad referring to you was in any way related to my bringing up your name.)
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On December 01 2019 10:26 Aquanim wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2019 10:23 JimmiC wrote:
I know you've made it your mission to follow me around and be a jerk to me. But if you can not bring me up in random fights I have nothing to with that would be appreciated. It is enough having to deal with you being a jerk when I'm posting. I don't think I should also have to deal with it when I have not. I brought up your name first in that conversation, for which I apologise. Perhaps I should have just left it at zlefin, even though some people reading this conversation won't have been active before he was banned. (That being said I don't know if Nebuchad referring to you was in any way related to my bringing up your name.)
Yes it was the entire reason why I mentioned him too.
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Northern Ireland26301 Posts
On December 01 2019 10:12 Aquanim wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2019 10:05 Wombat_NI wrote:On December 01 2019 09:48 Aquanim wrote:On December 01 2019 09:43 Wombat_NI wrote:
I don’t believe GH or Daunt are particularly bullies, GH is radical politically by most standards, and Daunt is by the general sensibilities of this thread. I appreciate it's difficult to see past this fact. Just... in future, or looking at conversations in the past, when GreenHorizons gets into conversations of an antagonistic nature look at who is more likely to be winding up whom. Winding up isn’t being a bully. Can be being a troll or an avowed iconoclast. Winding up for the purpose of making other people look bad (as GH frequently does) as opposed to cheap giggles (as a troll would) makes one a bully. GH might also be an iconoclast but "a person who attacks or criticizes cherished beliefs or institutions" does not have any direct bearing on the personal winding up of others. Show nested quote +Be it in high school or in the workplace a bully is only able to do their work because they hold a power and social cachet over the group and exert it in their favour.
Within the confines of this particular group does this describe GH at all? Yes. He may be unpopular with a fairly wide swathe of the regular posters but he clearly has a lot of social cachet with a significant fraction (including at least one person with site powers, whether or not Drone actively uses them), who are willing to come out and defend him whenever he skirts close to the line. Furthermore his sheer willingness to argue for days on end and generally deny other people satisfaction gives him power also. edit: Show nested quote +On December 01 2019 10:10 Belisarius wrote:
This really should be website feedback by now. I thought about it but my intention here is to bring this to the attention of other users, not the mods (the latter being what Website Feedback is for). Most meta-conversation probably belongs in Website Feedback but I'm not sure this does. Show nested quote +...this was a relatively innocuous comment being honestly misread and then aggressively doubled down against. I more or less agree with this; I am just putting forward my position as to the underlying reason why the aggressive doubling down and resulting fallout occurred, and the related ongoing pattern.
Why not double down?
You’re shunting the blame of this ‘dispute’ onto GH for reacting badly to a misunderstanding of his position that was worded rather antagonistically, a position that was understood by basically every poster here and calling him a bully while doing so.
What line is being skirted here exactly?
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On December 01 2019 10:30 Wombat_NI wrote:
Why not double down?
Double down on what? Talking to the mods? I don't think this is directly modactionable. What is required is a culture shift and greater awareness among posters in this thread.
You’re shunting the blame of this ‘dispute’ onto GH for reacting badly to a misunderstanding of his position that was worded rather antagonistically, a position that was understood by basically every poster here and calling him a bully while doing so.
In the context of GH's previous interactions with DMCD and several other people over the years, yes I am blaming him and calling him a bully. There's never going to be a good and clear time to do it where it's obvious and unambiguous to all because (a) everything requires several years of context to understand and (b) GH is very good at it. I picked today.
What line is being skirted here exactly?
Perhaps I worded that poorly. There are several situations in which GH's cheer squad have come out of the woodwork and defended him. Some involve skirting modactionable lines (like when he slandered somebody in Website Feedback by saying they sent him racist PMs, in a way that did not make it at all clear he was stating a hypothetical, and did not respond to a moderator's request for clarification). Some don't so clearly (like this).
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Perhaps you could have waited for an example where we're in the wrong
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On December 01 2019 10:41 Nebuchad wrote:
Perhaps you could have waited for an example where we're in the wrong
The side on which the misunderstanding originated is really quite irrelevant to the things I find objectionable about GreenHorizons' behaviour.
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On December 01 2019 10:42 Aquanim wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2019 10:41 Nebuchad wrote:
Perhaps you could have waited for an example where we're in the wrong The side on which the misunderstanding originated is really quite irrelevant to the things I find objectionable about GreenHorizons' behaviour.
Maybe not but it matters in the argument about his cachet with us followers of his, that you used in your argumentation.
Let's take something where he was clearly wrong, like the interaction with Jealous that you mentioned. He got banned 1 month for it, and there was one post by Drone where Drone tried to defend him where I was like "Eh that's too charitable, I wouldn't have posted that". I didn't defend this, nor did Gahlo, Brian, Godwrath or whoever else.
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On December 01 2019 10:54 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2019 10:42 Aquanim wrote:On December 01 2019 10:41 Nebuchad wrote:
Perhaps you could have waited for an example where we're in the wrong The side on which the misunderstanding originated is really quite irrelevant to the things I find objectionable about GreenHorizons' behaviour. Maybe not but it matters in the argument about his cachet with us followers of his, that you used in your argumentation. Let's take something where he was clearly wrong, like the interaction with Jealous that you mentioned. He got banned 1 month for it, and there was one post by Drone where Drone tried to defend him where I was like "Eh that's too charitable, I wouldn't have posted that". I didn't defend this, nor did Gahlo, Brian, Godwrath or whoever else.
I will acknowledge that not everybody who defends GreenHorizons defends everything he does.
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On December 01 2019 10:55 Aquanim wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2019 10:54 Nebuchad wrote:On December 01 2019 10:42 Aquanim wrote:On December 01 2019 10:41 Nebuchad wrote:
Perhaps you could have waited for an example where we're in the wrong The side on which the misunderstanding originated is really quite irrelevant to the things I find objectionable about GreenHorizons' behaviour. Maybe not but it matters in the argument about his cachet with us followers of his, that you used in your argumentation. Let's take something where he was clearly wrong, like the interaction with Jealous that you mentioned. He got banned 1 month for it, and there was one post by Drone where Drone tried to defend him where I was like "Eh that's too charitable, I wouldn't have posted that". I didn't defend this, nor did Gahlo, Brian, Godwrath or whoever else. I will acknowledge that not everybody who defends GreenHorizons defends everything he does.
Well, can you think of a situation where a bunch of people defended him and they/we shouldn't have?
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On December 01 2019 10:58 Nebuchad wrote:...
Well, can you think of a situation where a bunch of people defended him and they/we shouldn't have?
I would say "when he was permbanned" but I hardly expect you to agree with that one. Beyond that my inclination towards thread archaeology to find more examples where we will also probably disagree is limited.
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I'm aware it's an unrealistic expectation, but I still think obviously wrong misinterpretations should be ignored instead of attacked because posts about someone being "obviously wrong" tend to take (waste) more space than posts of the person defending their "obviously wrong" position.
I also think posters like GreenHorizons or Danglars shouldn't be actioned for being passive aggressive towards posters who keep misinterpreting their posts. It's unfair to hold them to a higher standard just because they tend to get into fights into more often due to their controversial views.
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On December 01 2019 11:06 Sent. wrote:...
I also think posters like GreenHorizons or Danglars shouldn't be actioned for being passive aggressive towards posters who keep misinterpreting their posts. It's unfair to hold them to a higher standard just because they tend to get into fights into more often due to their controversial views.
My point is that I think just dismissing the pattern of how this goes down as "oh, he's just being passive aggressive towards posters who keep misinterpreting his posts" is missing part of the problem.
Like I said, though, there's a reason I'm not having this conversation in the thread which would imply a call for mod action.
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EPT
