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Zurich15366 Posts
Germany: Certainly more than 20 years ago, difficult to say compared to 40 years ago.
By metrics like government spending as percentage of GDP Germany has shot up from a local low during the neoliberal period in the early 2000s to an all time high. The conservative and green parties have adopted much of what used to be social democratic positions. Liberal positions in Germany have been completely marginalized and struggle for relevance. There is no base for hands-off, liberal policy anymore in German society.
There will be disagreements of what "being social" means, and it might not feel more social because outcomes often fall short of intent. But policy in Germany is and will remain firmly social-democratic across virtually all parties and a vast majority of society.
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In Poland we have a lot more social benefits than it used to be. PiS government is borrowing a lot and funneling this into 1)Their own pocket 2)Pockets of their electorate.
Inflation is high, though. And some small businesses have been hit hard. Debt is all time high.
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On February 23 2023 23:53 Silvanel wrote:
In Poland we have a lot more social benefits than it used to be. PiS government is borrowing a lot and funneling this into 1)Their own pocket 2)Pockets of their electorate.
Inflation is high, though. And some small businesses have been hit hard. Debt is all time high.
Not sure you can answer, but would you consider Poland more or less socialist than in 1983 (basically towards the end of the communist era).
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On February 23 2023 23:56 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2023 23:53 Silvanel wrote:
In Poland we have a lot more social benefits than it used to be. PiS government is borrowing a lot and funneling this into 1)Their own pocket 2)Pockets of their electorate.
Inflation is high, though. And some small businesses have been hit hard. Debt is all time high. Not sure you can answer, but would you consider Poland more or less socialist than in 1983 (basically towards the end of the communist era).
It's quite a bit different. At the end of the communist era there were a lot of dumb socialist initiatives like borrowing a lot of money to build lots of shitty apartments etc. (we only recently barely paid off debts from the 60's and 70's). Right now it's our current ruling party making dumb socialist initiatives to get re-elected, funneling a lot of money into lower class. It might seem good at first glance but giving people money for free and incentivizing them to have more kids at the same time is actually backfiring. People now treat kids as their welfare checks basically and with most of them being who they are the money that's supposed to go into the kids is just being used to drink alcohol and purchase stuff outside of primary needs (nail salons, expensive clothes etc.). It also discourages people from finding employment (why would you work if you can live well off of welfare and unemployment?).
Personally I'm all for some socialism (free healthcare, free education, pensions being handled by the government etc.) but this is going too far. I understand the need to support people who are poor, unemployed and such but you can't go overboard with it as you'll end up just putting more people into poverty and making it harder for them to get out of it.
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On February 23 2023 23:56 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2023 23:53 Silvanel wrote:
In Poland we have a lot more social benefits than it used to be. PiS government is borrowing a lot and funneling this into 1)Their own pocket 2)Pockets of their electorate.
Inflation is high, though. And some small businesses have been hit hard. Debt is all time high. Not sure you can answer, but would you consider Poland more or less socialist than in 1983 (basically towards the end of the communist era).
I would say it's less socialist but the quality of social services today is much higher than it was in the 80s. Getting rid of bad aspects of the old regime's socialism allowed us to focus on developing those few aspects that were worth keeping (or rebuilding from scratch).
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To elaborate a little more. PiS is using a lot of clever and not so cleaver tricks to borrow/create money. This creates inflationary pressure like You might imagine. They increase expanses and at the same time lower country's income.
Specific policies:
1) Famous 500+ program - giving 500 PLN per month for every child. No questions asked. Intended to promote population growth, but nothing like that happened.
2) Some tax exemptions and lowering of income tax.
3) However, they raised mandatory health care contributions at the same time.
4) Programs like sponsoring laptops for high school graduates or firetrucks for small communities - designed to hit just before the election to boost popularity.
5)13 and 14th pension for the pensioners (one of the main PiS voting block)
6) Giving a lot of money (raises/benefits) to various groups when they need them (like to policemen when they need to quash protests) or government clerks when they "reform" tax regulations.
7) Various programs designed to offset rising gas/electricity costs for common people, which are often abused and created side effects - like skyrocketing costs for small businesses.
8)Rampant cronyism and corruption.
9)HUGE and sometimes senseless investments in the military (after Russian invasion of Ukraine).
10)Money printing.
11)All that while the government owned companies, managed by PiS cronies, make record profits.
While some particular policies might be ok, together this is a recipe for disaster.
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On February 23 2023 18:27 zatic wrote:
Germany: Certainly more than 20 years ago, difficult to say compared to 40 years ago.
By metrics like government spending as percentage of GDP Germany has shot up from a local low during the neoliberal period in the early 2000s to an all time high. The conservative and green parties have adopted much of what used to be social democratic positions. Liberal positions in Germany have been completely marginalized and struggle for relevance. There is no base for hands-off, liberal policy anymore in German society.
There will be disagreements of what "being social" means, and it might not feel more social because outcomes often fall short of intent. But policy in Germany is and will remain firmly social-democratic across virtually all parties and a vast majority of society.
I'm genuinely curious how you can say that there isn't a base for liberal policy while the only liberal party holds the government hostage.
They ended up with 11% of the vote.
It's kinda like saying we don't have a right wing populism problem while the AfD has 10% of the vote.
Can you elaborate on that, I'm actually really curious what your thoughts are in that regard.
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Zurich15366 Posts
On February 24 2023 03:01 Artisreal wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2023 18:27 zatic wrote:
Germany: Certainly more than 20 years ago, difficult to say compared to 40 years ago.
By metrics like government spending as percentage of GDP Germany has shot up from a local low during the neoliberal period in the early 2000s to an all time high. The conservative and green parties have adopted much of what used to be social democratic positions. Liberal positions in Germany have been completely marginalized and struggle for relevance. There is no base for hands-off, liberal policy anymore in German society.
There will be disagreements of what "being social" means, and it might not feel more social because outcomes often fall short of intent. But policy in Germany is and will remain firmly social-democratic across virtually all parties and a vast majority of society. I'm genuinely curious how you can say that there isn't a base for liberal policy while the only liberal party holds the government hostage. They ended up with 11% of the vote.It's kinda like saying we don't have a right wing populism problem while the AfD has 10% of the vote. Can you elaborate on that, I'm actually really curious what your thoughts are in that regard.
This is true of course, and there might be another spike in federal elections in the future - although I doubt it.
But it's also true that the liberal party since has lost 5 state elections in a row, and is polling just at eligibility threshold on the federal level as well.
It's also true that the party is carried to an enormous amount by their leader Christian Lindner. In general, successes of the liberal party for a long time were largely owed to outstanding and charismatic individuals, and much less to an appetite of the voters for actual liberal policy. Without politicians like Lindner, they would likely disappear from the federal and level and most states, just as we saw in 2013.
This lack of appetite for liberalism is also precisely why the party tends to swing into reactionary populism like their car fetishism from time to time, which reaches more people than genuine liberal policy.
The German zeitgeist is clearly towards stateism in all aspects of life. The liberal party will continue to exist, but, like I said, at the margins with barely any relevance and barely any impact on policy made.
Now compare that to the neoliberal Schroeder years, where a federal admin pushed through naked neoliberal policy of distributing wealth from the people to corporations and to the owner class by extension. Policy that was so radically neoliberal that it eventually lead to the split of the social democratic party - but policy that nevertheless enjoyed a public majority and wide support across the political spectrum and in civil society. This would be unthinkable now, 20 years later. So, compared with the excesses in the early 2000s yes, we are in more social Democracy that we were back then.
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On February 24 2023 03:48 zatic wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2023 03:01 Artisreal wrote:On February 23 2023 18:27 zatic wrote:
Germany: Certainly more than 20 years ago, difficult to say compared to 40 years ago.
By metrics like government spending as percentage of GDP Germany has shot up from a local low during the neoliberal period in the early 2000s to an all time high. The conservative and green parties have adopted much of what used to be social democratic positions. Liberal positions in Germany have been completely marginalized and struggle for relevance. There is no base for hands-off, liberal policy anymore in German society.
There will be disagreements of what "being social" means, and it might not feel more social because outcomes often fall short of intent. But policy in Germany is and will remain firmly social-democratic across virtually all parties and a vast majority of society. I'm genuinely curious how you can say that there isn't a base for liberal policy while the only liberal party holds the government hostage. They ended up with 11% of the vote.It's kinda like saying we don't have a right wing populism problem while the AfD has 10% of the vote. Can you elaborate on that, I'm actually really curious what your thoughts are in that regard. This is true of course, and there might be another spike in federal elections in the future - although I doubt it. But it's also true that the liberal party since has lost 5 state elections in a row, and is polling just at eligibility threshold on the federal level as well. It's also true that the party is carried to an enormous amount by their leader Christian Lindner. In general, successes of the liberal party for a long time were largely owed to outstanding and charismatic individuals, and much less to an appetite of the voters for actual liberal policy. Without politicians like Lindner, they would likely disappear from the federal and level and most states, just as we saw in 2013. This lack of appetite for liberalism is also precisely why the party tends to swing into reactionary populism like their car fetishism from time to time, which reaches more people than genuine liberal policy. The German zeitgeist is clearly towards stateism in all aspects of life. The liberal party will continue to exist, but, like I said, at the margins with barely any relevance and barely any impact on policy made. Now compare that to the neoliberal Schroeder years, where a federal admin pushed through naked neoliberal policy of distributing wealth from the people to corporations and to the owner class by extension. Policy that was so radically neoliberal that it eventually lead to the split of the social democratic party - but policy that nevertheless enjoyed a public majority and wide support across the political spectrum and in civil society. This would be unthinkable now, 20 years later. So, compared with the excesses in the early 2000s yes, we are in more social Democracy that we were back then.
I see your point, thanks for elaborating!
Though the election results on a statewide level have been around 10% with two outliers back to back (all time high to irrelevance :-)).
What I think makes me instinctively question the supposed irrelevance of liberal policy in Germany is that I'm confronted with its results on a day to day basis.
And that I still find liberal policies in the rethoric of the conservative party.
Mainly regarding environmental, animal, consumer and environmental protection. I will give Julia Klöckner or the obsessive focus on building new autobahns as an example of the failed belief that market forces will help us with the aforementioned tasks.
I do work in Berlin and have witnessed the fallout of years and years of privatisation policy and austerity, which as I said still impacts the city heavily.
I would hope to agree that the Zeitgeist, as you said, shifts towards a policy with more foresight and less focus on 4 year election cycles.
The immense blowback to the proposed reduction of environmentally harmful subsidies (for private citizens or companies) is undoubtedly still a knee jerk reaction without any compromise in sight. Same goes for the reform of social security or maybe more pressing, our pension scheme. Or our asylum system.
Hopefully we are past the point of wanting to privatise heavily, but the general gist of a lenient state lives on with the conservatives and liberals. Well, of course if it's not about deporting people of colour or making thinly veiled racist remarks about violent youths or how far a wind turbine has to be away from houses.
Suddenly conservatives don't shy away from micro managing issues by power of law.
Ok rant over.
All in all, I think you're spot on with the comment that we're way past the 1990s and early 2000s, while still regarding many conservative standpoints as liberal policy (though I'm unsure whether that's just a misnomer on my side).
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On February 24 2023 03:01 Artisreal wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2023 18:27 zatic wrote:
Germany: Certainly more than 20 years ago, difficult to say compared to 40 years ago.
By metrics like government spending as percentage of GDP Germany has shot up from a local low during the neoliberal period in the early 2000s to an all time high. The conservative and green parties have adopted much of what used to be social democratic positions. Liberal positions in Germany have been completely marginalized and struggle for relevance. There is no base for hands-off, liberal policy anymore in German society.
There will be disagreements of what "being social" means, and it might not feel more social because outcomes often fall short of intent. But policy in Germany is and will remain firmly social-democratic across virtually all parties and a vast majority of society. I'm genuinely curious how you can say that there isn't a base for liberal policy while the only liberal party holds the government hostage. They ended up with 11% of the vote. It's kinda like saying we don't have a right wing populism problem while the AfD has 10% of the vote. Can you elaborate on that, I'm actually really curious what your thoughts are in that regard.
That germany somehow doesn't have a large amount of it's people being or at least voting for far right and/or super conservative parties is such a german idea. Just be happy it's not 25-35% (yet).
The AFD getting 10% isn't nice, but it's far from an actual problem. It's just a bit more normal when you compare germany to all it's neighbours (or just about any democracy for that matter).
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I'm not versed enough in anything but Scottish parties so can't really comment on that.
But most of the violence against people in Germany is right wing fascists violence.
Most I hear from France for example are Islamic and gang attacks.
But that is through the German media filter and the odd le Monde diplomatique article.
Also the conservative party is only ever so thinly veiled racist and sucks up a lot of right leaning votes.
I'd wager if it weren't for their constant dog whistling and purported conservation of German Leitkultur" with all the inherent great replacement angst, we'd have an openly racist and culture war waging party Like the AfD between 20 and 30%.
Which by the by is already the case in parts of eastern Germany.
The conservatives in Germany have no idea what they are trying to conserve and, as mentioned, resort to right wing dog whistling and attempting to gain votes through rage politics in a culture war style.
And in my book being rooted in good old times that can never return while fighting any change at all without any vision either how to move forward or even to return to the good old days, is pretty darn textbook super conservative.
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On February 24 2023 20:48 Artisreal wrote:
But most of the violence against people in Germany is right wing fascists violence.
Do you have a source on that?
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On February 24 2023 21:45 Elroi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2023 20:48 Artisreal wrote:
But most of the violence against people in Germany is right wing fascists violence.
Do you have a source on that?
I have to qualify my statement to only encompass political violence.
Otherwise I'd have to say that most violence is perpetrated by men.
(Facts are facts)
You can find the data at the federal intelligence service (Bundesamt für Verfassungsschutz). It's available in English and you'd have to look for right wing, left wing and Reichsbürger (another group of fascists) and according to the federal criminal police officer also a part of perpetrators of "unknown" origin (eg new grups like anti Vax) are part of right wing groups.
You'd have to dig a bit to unravel what the numbers aggregate (resisting arrest or protesting against literal Nazis is violence in that regard).
Statista has a list with more details and you can see for yourself here.
The clearest difference between left and right is murders.
Which is 4 against 113 (up to 187 or even more depending on source) since the inception of a United Germany.
It goes to show that the federal government counts about half of what an investigation of three big newspapers brought to light (see also closing note).
The easiest aggregate to underscore the difference is murders.
Which is like 4 to 198 since the inception of a United Germany.
Germany had no problem with left wing terror against people since the RAF.
(One could easily argue that burning luxurious cars or gluing yourself to the street is terror though)
The Zeit newspaper has a comprehensive list of murder victims of right wing terror.
(Even excluding the fact that our police and big party governments trends to have bad eyesight on the right side, it's abundantly clear that the right wing lunatics are the more dangerous bunch. Even our current minister for the interior said as much. Which is a crass change of tone.)
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On February 24 2023 23:13 Artisreal wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2023 21:45 Elroi wrote:On February 24 2023 20:48 Artisreal wrote:
But most of the violence against people in Germany is right wing fascists violence.
Do you have a source on that? I have to qualify my statement to only encompass political violence. Otherwise I'd have to say that most violence is perpetrated by men. (Facts are facts) You can find the data at the federal intelligence service (Bundesamt für Verfassungsschutz). It's available in English and you'd have to look for right wing, left wing and Reichsbürger (another group of fascists) and according to the federal criminal police officer also a part of perpetrators of "unknown" origin (eg new grups like anti Vax) are part of right wing groups. You'd have to dig a bit to unravel what the numbers aggregate (resisting arrest or protesting against literal Nazis is violence in that regard). Statista has a list with more details and you can see for yourself here. The clearest difference between left and right is murders. Which is 4 against 113 (up to 187 or even more depending on source) since the inception of a United Germany. It goes to show that the federal government counts about half of what an investigation of three big newspapers brought to light (see also closing note). The easiest aggregate to underscore the difference is murders. Which is like 4 to 198 since the inception of a United Germany. Germany had no problem with left wing terror against people since the RAF. (One could easily argue that burning luxurious cars or gluing yourself to the street is terror though) The Zeit newspaper has a comprehensive list of murder victims of right wing terror. (Even excluding the fact that our police and big party governments trends to have bad eyesight on the right side, it's abundantly clear that the right wing lunatics are the more dangerous bunch. Even our current minister for the interior said as much. Which is a crass change of tone.)
What? Has there been 198 politically motivated murders in Germany by right wing groups since the 1989? That sounds insane.
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On February 25 2023 01:20 Elroi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2023 23:13 Artisreal wrote:On February 24 2023 21:45 Elroi wrote:On February 24 2023 20:48 Artisreal wrote:
But most of the violence against people in Germany is right wing fascists violence.
Do you have a source on that? I have to qualify my statement to only encompass political violence. Otherwise I'd have to say that most violence is perpetrated by men. (Facts are facts) You can find the data at the federal intelligence service (Bundesamt für Verfassungsschutz). It's available in English and you'd have to look for right wing, left wing and Reichsbürger (another group of fascists) and according to the federal criminal police officer also a part of perpetrators of "unknown" origin (eg new grups like anti Vax) are part of right wing groups. You'd have to dig a bit to unravel what the numbers aggregate (resisting arrest or protesting against literal Nazis is violence in that regard). Statista has a list with more details and you can see for yourself here. The clearest difference between left and right is murders. Which is 4 against 113 (up to 187 or even more depending on source) since the inception of a United Germany. It goes to show that the federal government counts about half of what an investigation of three big newspapers brought to light (see also closing note). The easiest aggregate to underscore the difference is murders. Which is like 4 to 198 since the inception of a United Germany. Germany had no problem with left wing terror against people since the RAF. (One could easily argue that burning luxurious cars or gluing yourself to the street is terror though) The Zeit newspaper has a comprehensive list of murder victims of right wing terror. (Even excluding the fact that our police and big party governments trends to have bad eyesight on the right side, it's abundantly clear that the right wing lunatics are the more dangerous bunch. Even our current minister for the interior said as much. Which is a crass change of tone.) What? Has there been 198 politically motivated murders in Germany by right wing groups since the 1989? That sounds insane.
Well, about 110 are officially recognized as victims of the extreme right.
+ Show Spoiler [Original and DeepL translation] +Original: Die Gesamtzahl der Todesopfer im Phänomenbereich Politisch motivierte Kriminalität -rechts- im Zeitraum von 1990 bis zum 31. Oktober 2020 beträgt 106 Personen. Bezüglich der Aufschlüsselung der Jahre von 1990 bis 2000 wird auf Bundestagsdrucksache 19/2769 verwiesen. Translation: The total number of fatalities in the phenomenon area of politically motivated criminality -right- in the period from 1990 to October 31, 2020 is 106 persons. For a breakdown of the years from 1990 to 2000, please refer to the Bundestag document 19/2769. Source: https://dserver.bundestag.de/btd/19/252/1925216.pdf
The bigger (more accurate) numbers are result of different organizations or journalists compiling better data than official statistics care for or are able to.
You can have a look at the murder incidents on a map, a case by case and victim by victim basis here (German):
https://www.zeit.de/gesellschaft/zeitgeschehen/2018-09/todesopfer-rechte-gewalt-karte-portraet
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On February 25 2023 01:20 Elroi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2023 23:13 Artisreal wrote:On February 24 2023 21:45 Elroi wrote:On February 24 2023 20:48 Artisreal wrote:
But most of the violence against people in Germany is right wing fascists violence.
Do you have a source on that? I have to qualify my statement to only encompass political violence. Otherwise I'd have to say that most violence is perpetrated by men. (Facts are facts) You can find the data at the federal intelligence service (Bundesamt für Verfassungsschutz). It's available in English and you'd have to look for right wing, left wing and Reichsbürger (another group of fascists) and according to the federal criminal police officer also a part of perpetrators of "unknown" origin (eg new grups like anti Vax) are part of right wing groups. You'd have to dig a bit to unravel what the numbers aggregate (resisting arrest or protesting against literal Nazis is violence in that regard). Statista has a list with more details and you can see for yourself here. The clearest difference between left and right is murders. Which is 4 against 113 (up to 187 or even more depending on source) since the inception of a United Germany. It goes to show that the federal government counts about half of what an investigation of three big newspapers brought to light (see also closing note). The easiest aggregate to underscore the difference is murders. Which is like 4 to 198 since the inception of a United Germany. Germany had no problem with left wing terror against people since the RAF. (One could easily argue that burning luxurious cars or gluing yourself to the street is terror though) The Zeit newspaper has a comprehensive list of murder victims of right wing terror. (Even excluding the fact that our police and big party governments trends to have bad eyesight on the right side, it's abundantly clear that the right wing lunatics are the more dangerous bunch. Even our current minister for the interior said as much. Which is a crass change of tone.) What? Has there been 198 politically motivated murders in Germany by right wing groups since the 1989? That sounds insane.
Even including all hate crimes (even just senseless violence that doesn't necessarily have any ideological motivation), that sounds high for 33 years. It's 6 per year.
Okay, saw you replied. 110 in 33 years seems more likely. 1 death for ideological reasons every 4 months sounds high, but Germany is a big country.
E2: how do they count something like the Islamic State terrorist attack in Berlin in 2016. That's neither left nor right wing, and should be on a separate axis, but it's still politically motivated murders.
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Islamic terrorism earned its own category, they don't include it in right/left wing extremism statistics.
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On February 25 2023 02:53 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2023 01:20 Elroi wrote:On February 24 2023 23:13 Artisreal wrote:On February 24 2023 21:45 Elroi wrote:On February 24 2023 20:48 Artisreal wrote:
But most of the violence against people in Germany is right wing fascists violence.
Do you have a source on that? I have to qualify my statement to only encompass political violence. Otherwise I'd have to say that most violence is perpetrated by men. (Facts are facts) You can find the data at the federal intelligence service (Bundesamt für Verfassungsschutz). It's available in English and you'd have to look for right wing, left wing and Reichsbürger (another group of fascists) and according to the federal criminal police officer also a part of perpetrators of "unknown" origin (eg new grups like anti Vax) are part of right wing groups. You'd have to dig a bit to unravel what the numbers aggregate (resisting arrest or protesting against literal Nazis is violence in that regard). Statista has a list with more details and you can see for yourself here. The clearest difference between left and right is murders. Which is 4 against 113 (up to 187 or even more depending on source) since the inception of a United Germany. It goes to show that the federal government counts about half of what an investigation of three big newspapers brought to light (see also closing note). The easiest aggregate to underscore the difference is murders. Which is like 4 to 198 since the inception of a United Germany. Germany had no problem with left wing terror against people since the RAF. (One could easily argue that burning luxurious cars or gluing yourself to the street is terror though) The Zeit newspaper has a comprehensive list of murder victims of right wing terror. (Even excluding the fact that our police and big party governments trends to have bad eyesight on the right side, it's abundantly clear that the right wing lunatics are the more dangerous bunch. Even our current minister for the interior said as much. Which is a crass change of tone.) What? Has there been 198 politically motivated murders in Germany by right wing groups since the 1989? That sounds insane. Even including all hate crimes (even just senseless violence that doesn't necessarily have any ideological motivation), that sounds high for 33 years. It's 6 per year. Okay, saw you replied. 110 in 33 years seems more likely. 1 death for ideological reasons every 4 months sounds high, but Germany is a big country. E2: how do they count something like the Islamic State terrorist attack in Berlin in 2016. That's neither left nor right wing, and should be on a separate axis, but it's still politically motivated murders.
110 is not a real number. it's a bureaucratic way to say we have no idea what happens to our citizens.
See the "Zeit" newspaper page I linked. It is highly likely that the real number is significantly higher, as also demonstrated by the Amadeo-Antonio foundation.
Amadeo-Antonio was one of the first victims of extreme right violence in the united Germany, beaten to death because he was black.
The point I was making is that both recent as well as more distant history shows us clearly that nazis are far more dangerous than left wing extremists.
That's why I always contradict the horseshitshoe theory with regards to Germany.
IS terrorism is counted under Islamism and Islamic terrorism.
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Obviously such numbers are a highly controversial matter. My personal impression on this subject is:
-German authorities, as well the as the majority of german society, have for a long time turned a blind eye towards the relevance of far right motives of crimes, including homicide. It started changing maybe 20 years ago.
-Retroactively figuring out the circumstances from homicides 30+ years ago seems like a difficult task, especially when in many of the cases in question many of the victims (asylum seekers, homeless) were probably relatively isolated people.
-Of course every single death is an unspeakable tragedy. Yet, in many countries, the law distinguishes between different cases of gravity regarding homicide. Such is the case in these statistics, which include outright murder as well as cases where the court has decided that the culprit(s) were not guilty of murder, but "only" of crimes which in english probably translate to "aggravated assault leading to death" or "aggravated arson leading to death". Essentially, this means the death was a collateral and not the main goal. But it might also be that there was no definitive proof.
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EPT
