• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 10:53
CEST 16:53
KST 23:53
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall9HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16Code S RO4 & Finals Preview: herO, Rogue, Classic, GuMiho0TL Team Map Contest #5: Presented by Monster Energy6
Community News
Weekly Cups (June 30 - July 6): Classic Doubles2[BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China8Flash Announces Hiatus From ASL64Weekly Cups (June 23-29): Reynor in world title form?14FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event22
StarCraft 2
General
The GOAT ranking of GOAT rankings The SCII GOAT: A statistical Evaluation Weekly Cups (June 23-29): Reynor in world title form? Weekly Cups (June 30 - July 6): Classic Doubles Program: SC2 / XSplit / OBS Scene Switcher
Tourneys
RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament WardiTV Mondays Korean Starcraft League Week 77
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response Simple Questions Simple Answers
Custom Maps
[UMS] Zillion Zerglings
External Content
Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava Mutation # 480 Moths to the Flame Mutation # 479 Worn Out Welcome Mutation # 478 Instant Karma
Brood War
General
SC uni coach streams logging into betting site BW General Discussion BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ ASL20 Preliminary Maps Flash Announces Hiatus From ASL
Tourneys
CSL Xiamen International Invitational [BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China [BSL20] Grand Finals - Sunday 20:00 CET The Casual Games of the Week Thread
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Path of Exile Nintendo Switch Thread What do you want from future RTS games? Beyond All Reason
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative Summer Games Done Quick 2024! Summer Games Done Quick 2025!
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread
Sports
Formula 1 Discussion 2024 - 2025 Football Thread NBA General Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NHL Playoffs 2024
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Culture Clash in Video Games…
TrAiDoS
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
Blog #2
tankgirl
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Trip to the Zoo
micronesia
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 713 users

European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread - Page 1380

Forum Index > General Forum
Post a Reply
Prev 1 1378 1379 1380 1381 1382 1413 Next
Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action.
zatic
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
Zurich15325 Posts
February 23 2023 09:27 GMT
#27581
Germany: Certainly more than 20 years ago, difficult to say compared to 40 years ago.

By metrics like government spending as percentage of GDP Germany has shot up from a local low during the neoliberal period in the early 2000s to an all time high. The conservative and green parties have adopted much of what used to be social democratic positions. Liberal positions in Germany have been completely marginalized and struggle for relevance. There is no base for hands-off, liberal policy anymore in German society.

There will be disagreements of what "being social" means, and it might not feel more social because outcomes often fall short of intent. But policy in Germany is and will remain firmly social-democratic across virtually all parties and a vast majority of society.
ModeratorI know Teamliquid is known as a massive building
Silvanel
Profile Blog Joined March 2003
Poland4725 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-02-23 14:53:42
February 23 2023 14:53 GMT
#27582
In Poland we have a lot more social benefits than it used to be. PiS government is borrowing a lot and funneling this into 1)Their own pocket 2)Pockets of their electorate.
Inflation is high, though. And some small businesses have been hit hard. Debt is all time high.
Pathetic Greta hater.
Acrofales
Profile Joined August 2010
Spain17971 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-02-23 14:56:45
February 23 2023 14:56 GMT
#27583
On February 23 2023 23:53 Silvanel wrote:
In Poland we have a lot more social benefits than it used to be. PiS government is borrowing a lot and funneling this into 1)Their own pocket 2)Pockets of their electorate.
Inflation is high, though. And some small businesses have been hit hard. Debt is all time high.

Not sure you can answer, but would you consider Poland more or less socialist than in 1983 (basically towards the end of the communist era).
Manit0u
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
Poland17243 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-02-23 15:26:10
February 23 2023 15:23 GMT
#27584
On February 23 2023 23:56 Acrofales wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 23 2023 23:53 Silvanel wrote:
In Poland we have a lot more social benefits than it used to be. PiS government is borrowing a lot and funneling this into 1)Their own pocket 2)Pockets of their electorate.
Inflation is high, though. And some small businesses have been hit hard. Debt is all time high.

Not sure you can answer, but would you consider Poland more or less socialist than in 1983 (basically towards the end of the communist era).


It's quite a bit different. At the end of the communist era there were a lot of dumb socialist initiatives like borrowing a lot of money to build lots of shitty apartments etc. (we only recently barely paid off debts from the 60's and 70's). Right now it's our current ruling party making dumb socialist initiatives to get re-elected, funneling a lot of money into lower class. It might seem good at first glance but giving people money for free and incentivizing them to have more kids at the same time is actually backfiring. People now treat kids as their welfare checks basically and with most of them being who they are the money that's supposed to go into the kids is just being used to drink alcohol and purchase stuff outside of primary needs (nail salons, expensive clothes etc.). It also discourages people from finding employment (why would you work if you can live well off of welfare and unemployment?).

Personally I'm all for some socialism (free healthcare, free education, pensions being handled by the government etc.) but this is going too far. I understand the need to support people who are poor, unemployed and such but you can't go overboard with it as you'll end up just putting more people into poverty and making it harder for them to get out of it.
Time is precious. Waste it wisely.
JimmiC
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada22817 Posts
February 23 2023 15:38 GMT
#27585
--- Nuked ---
Sent.
Profile Joined June 2012
Poland9182 Posts
February 23 2023 16:19 GMT
#27586
On February 23 2023 23:56 Acrofales wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 23 2023 23:53 Silvanel wrote:
In Poland we have a lot more social benefits than it used to be. PiS government is borrowing a lot and funneling this into 1)Their own pocket 2)Pockets of their electorate.
Inflation is high, though. And some small businesses have been hit hard. Debt is all time high.

Not sure you can answer, but would you consider Poland more or less socialist than in 1983 (basically towards the end of the communist era).


I would say it's less socialist but the quality of social services today is much higher than it was in the 80s. Getting rid of bad aspects of the old regime's socialism allowed us to focus on developing those few aspects that were worth keeping (or rebuilding from scratch).
You're now breathing manually
Silvanel
Profile Blog Joined March 2003
Poland4725 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-02-23 18:06:32
February 23 2023 16:33 GMT
#27587
To elaborate a little more. PiS is using a lot of clever and not so cleaver tricks to borrow/create money. This creates inflationary pressure like You might imagine. They increase expanses and at the same time lower country's income.

Specific policies:
1) Famous 500+ program - giving 500 PLN per month for every child. No questions asked. Intended to promote population growth, but nothing like that happened.
2) Some tax exemptions and lowering of income tax.
3) However, they raised mandatory health care contributions at the same time.
4) Programs like sponsoring laptops for high school graduates or firetrucks for small communities - designed to hit just before the election to boost popularity.
5)13 and 14th pension for the pensioners (one of the main PiS voting block)
6) Giving a lot of money (raises/benefits) to various groups when they need them (like to policemen when they need to quash protests) or government clerks when they "reform" tax regulations.
7) Various programs designed to offset rising gas/electricity costs for common people, which are often abused and created side effects - like skyrocketing costs for small businesses.
8)Rampant cronyism and corruption.
9)HUGE and sometimes senseless investments in the military (after Russian invasion of Ukraine).
10)Money printing.
11)All that while the government owned companies, managed by PiS cronies, make record profits.

While some particular policies might be ok, together this is a recipe for disaster.
Pathetic Greta hater.
Artisreal
Profile Joined June 2009
Germany9235 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-02-23 18:01:33
February 23 2023 18:01 GMT
#27588
On February 23 2023 18:27 zatic wrote:
Germany: Certainly more than 20 years ago, difficult to say compared to 40 years ago.

By metrics like government spending as percentage of GDP Germany has shot up from a local low during the neoliberal period in the early 2000s to an all time high. The conservative and green parties have adopted much of what used to be social democratic positions. Liberal positions in Germany have been completely marginalized and struggle for relevance. There is no base for hands-off, liberal policy anymore in German society.

There will be disagreements of what "being social" means, and it might not feel more social because outcomes often fall short of intent. But policy in Germany is and will remain firmly social-democratic across virtually all parties and a vast majority of society.

I'm genuinely curious how you can say that there isn't a base for liberal policy while the only liberal party holds the government hostage.
They ended up with 11% of the vote.

It's kinda like saying we don't have a right wing populism problem while the AfD has 10% of the vote.

Can you elaborate on that, I'm actually really curious what your thoughts are in that regard.
passive quaranstream fan
zatic
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
Zurich15325 Posts
February 23 2023 18:48 GMT
#27589
On February 24 2023 03:01 Artisreal wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 23 2023 18:27 zatic wrote:
Germany: Certainly more than 20 years ago, difficult to say compared to 40 years ago.

By metrics like government spending as percentage of GDP Germany has shot up from a local low during the neoliberal period in the early 2000s to an all time high. The conservative and green parties have adopted much of what used to be social democratic positions. Liberal positions in Germany have been completely marginalized and struggle for relevance. There is no base for hands-off, liberal policy anymore in German society.

There will be disagreements of what "being social" means, and it might not feel more social because outcomes often fall short of intent. But policy in Germany is and will remain firmly social-democratic across virtually all parties and a vast majority of society.

I'm genuinely curious how you can say that there isn't a base for liberal policy while the only liberal party holds the government hostage.
They ended up with 11% of the vote.
It's kinda like saying we don't have a right wing populism problem while the AfD has 10% of the vote.

Can you elaborate on that, I'm actually really curious what your thoughts are in that regard.

This is true of course, and there might be another spike in federal elections in the future - although I doubt it.
But it's also true that the liberal party since has lost 5 state elections in a row, and is polling just at eligibility threshold on the federal level as well.

It's also true that the party is carried to an enormous amount by their leader Christian Lindner. In general, successes of the liberal party for a long time were largely owed to outstanding and charismatic individuals, and much less to an appetite of the voters for actual liberal policy. Without politicians like Lindner, they would likely disappear from the federal and level and most states, just as we saw in 2013.

This lack of appetite for liberalism is also precisely why the party tends to swing into reactionary populism like their car fetishism from time to time, which reaches more people than genuine liberal policy.
The German zeitgeist is clearly towards stateism in all aspects of life. The liberal party will continue to exist, but, like I said, at the margins with barely any relevance and barely any impact on policy made.

Now compare that to the neoliberal Schroeder years, where a federal admin pushed through naked neoliberal policy of distributing wealth from the people to corporations and to the owner class by extension. Policy that was so radically neoliberal that it eventually lead to the split of the social democratic party - but policy that nevertheless enjoyed a public majority and wide support across the political spectrum and in civil society. This would be unthinkable now, 20 years later. So, compared with the excesses in the early 2000s yes, we are in more social Democracy that we were back then.
ModeratorI know Teamliquid is known as a massive building
Artisreal
Profile Joined June 2009
Germany9235 Posts
February 24 2023 08:03 GMT
#27590
On February 24 2023 03:48 zatic wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 24 2023 03:01 Artisreal wrote:
On February 23 2023 18:27 zatic wrote:
Germany: Certainly more than 20 years ago, difficult to say compared to 40 years ago.

By metrics like government spending as percentage of GDP Germany has shot up from a local low during the neoliberal period in the early 2000s to an all time high. The conservative and green parties have adopted much of what used to be social democratic positions. Liberal positions in Germany have been completely marginalized and struggle for relevance. There is no base for hands-off, liberal policy anymore in German society.

There will be disagreements of what "being social" means, and it might not feel more social because outcomes often fall short of intent. But policy in Germany is and will remain firmly social-democratic across virtually all parties and a vast majority of society.

I'm genuinely curious how you can say that there isn't a base for liberal policy while the only liberal party holds the government hostage.
They ended up with 11% of the vote.
It's kinda like saying we don't have a right wing populism problem while the AfD has 10% of the vote.

Can you elaborate on that, I'm actually really curious what your thoughts are in that regard.

This is true of course, and there might be another spike in federal elections in the future - although I doubt it.
But it's also true that the liberal party since has lost 5 state elections in a row, and is polling just at eligibility threshold on the federal level as well.

It's also true that the party is carried to an enormous amount by their leader Christian Lindner. In general, successes of the liberal party for a long time were largely owed to outstanding and charismatic individuals, and much less to an appetite of the voters for actual liberal policy. Without politicians like Lindner, they would likely disappear from the federal and level and most states, just as we saw in 2013.

This lack of appetite for liberalism is also precisely why the party tends to swing into reactionary populism like their car fetishism from time to time, which reaches more people than genuine liberal policy.
The German zeitgeist is clearly towards stateism in all aspects of life. The liberal party will continue to exist, but, like I said, at the margins with barely any relevance and barely any impact on policy made.

Now compare that to the neoliberal Schroeder years, where a federal admin pushed through naked neoliberal policy of distributing wealth from the people to corporations and to the owner class by extension. Policy that was so radically neoliberal that it eventually lead to the split of the social democratic party - but policy that nevertheless enjoyed a public majority and wide support across the political spectrum and in civil society. This would be unthinkable now, 20 years later. So, compared with the excesses in the early 2000s yes, we are in more social Democracy that we were back then.

I see your point, thanks for elaborating!
Though the election results on a statewide level have been around 10% with two outliers back to back (all time high to irrelevance :-)).

What I think makes me instinctively question the supposed irrelevance of liberal policy in Germany is that I'm confronted with its results on a day to day basis.
And that I still find liberal policies in the rethoric of the conservative party.
Mainly regarding environmental, animal, consumer and environmental protection. I will give Julia Klöckner or the obsessive focus on building new autobahns as an example of the failed belief that market forces will help us with the aforementioned tasks.

I do work in Berlin and have witnessed the fallout of years and years of privatisation policy and austerity, which as I said still impacts the city heavily.

I would hope to agree that the Zeitgeist, as you said, shifts towards a policy with more foresight and less focus on 4 year election cycles.
The immense blowback to the proposed reduction of environmentally harmful subsidies (for private citizens or companies) is undoubtedly still a knee jerk reaction without any compromise in sight. Same goes for the reform of social security or maybe more pressing, our pension scheme. Or our asylum system.

Hopefully we are past the point of wanting to privatise heavily, but the general gist of a lenient state lives on with the conservatives and liberals. Well, of course if it's not about deporting people of colour or making thinly veiled racist remarks about violent youths or how far a wind turbine has to be away from houses.
Suddenly conservatives don't shy away from micro managing issues by power of law.
Ok rant over.

All in all, I think you're spot on with the comment that we're way past the 1990s and early 2000s, while still regarding many conservative standpoints as liberal policy (though I'm unsure whether that's just a misnomer on my side).
passive quaranstream fan
Velr
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Switzerland10686 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-02-24 11:27:11
February 24 2023 10:09 GMT
#27591
On February 24 2023 03:01 Artisreal wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 23 2023 18:27 zatic wrote:
Germany: Certainly more than 20 years ago, difficult to say compared to 40 years ago.

By metrics like government spending as percentage of GDP Germany has shot up from a local low during the neoliberal period in the early 2000s to an all time high. The conservative and green parties have adopted much of what used to be social democratic positions. Liberal positions in Germany have been completely marginalized and struggle for relevance. There is no base for hands-off, liberal policy anymore in German society.

There will be disagreements of what "being social" means, and it might not feel more social because outcomes often fall short of intent. But policy in Germany is and will remain firmly social-democratic across virtually all parties and a vast majority of society.

I'm genuinely curious how you can say that there isn't a base for liberal policy while the only liberal party holds the government hostage.
They ended up with 11% of the vote.

It's kinda like saying we don't have a right wing populism problem while the AfD has 10% of the vote.

Can you elaborate on that, I'm actually really curious what your thoughts are in that regard.



That germany somehow doesn't have a large amount of it's people being or at least voting for far right and/or super conservative parties is such a german idea. Just be happy it's not 25-35% (yet).
The AFD getting 10% isn't nice, but it's far from an actual problem. It's just a bit more normal when you compare germany to all it's neighbours (or just about any democracy for that matter).
Artisreal
Profile Joined June 2009
Germany9235 Posts
February 24 2023 11:48 GMT
#27592
I'm not versed enough in anything but Scottish parties so can't really comment on that.
But most of the violence against people in Germany is right wing fascists violence.

Most I hear from France for example are Islamic and gang attacks.
But that is through the German media filter and the odd le Monde diplomatique article.

Also the conservative party is only ever so thinly veiled racist and sucks up a lot of right leaning votes.
I'd wager if it weren't for their constant dog whistling and purported conservation of German Leitkultur" with all the inherent great replacement angst, we'd have an openly racist and culture war waging party Like the AfD between 20 and 30%.
Which by the by is already the case in parts of eastern Germany.

The conservatives in Germany have no idea what they are trying to conserve and, as mentioned, resort to right wing dog whistling and attempting to gain votes through rage politics in a culture war style.
And in my book being rooted in good old times that can never return while fighting any change at all without any vision either how to move forward or even to return to the good old days, is pretty darn textbook super conservative.
passive quaranstream fan
Elroi
Profile Joined August 2009
Sweden5595 Posts
February 24 2023 12:45 GMT
#27593
On February 24 2023 20:48 Artisreal wrote:
But most of the violence against people in Germany is right wing fascists violence.

Do you have a source on that?
"To all eSports fans, I want to be remembered as a progamer who can make something out of nothing, and someone who always does his best. I think that is the right way of living, and I'm always doing my best to follow that." - Jaedong. /watch?v=jfghAzJqAp0
Artisreal
Profile Joined June 2009
Germany9235 Posts
February 24 2023 14:13 GMT
#27594
On February 24 2023 21:45 Elroi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 24 2023 20:48 Artisreal wrote:
But most of the violence against people in Germany is right wing fascists violence.

Do you have a source on that?

I have to qualify my statement to only encompass political violence.
Otherwise I'd have to say that most violence is perpetrated by men.
(Facts are facts)

You can find the data at the federal intelligence service (Bundesamt für Verfassungsschutz). It's available in English and you'd have to look for right wing, left wing and Reichsbürger (another group of fascists) and according to the federal criminal police officer also a part of perpetrators of "unknown" origin (eg new grups like anti Vax) are part of right wing groups.

You'd have to dig a bit to unravel what the numbers aggregate (resisting arrest or protesting against literal Nazis is violence in that regard).
Statista has a list with more details and you can see for yourself here.

The clearest difference between left and right is murders.
Which is 4 against 113 (up to 187 or even more depending on source) since the inception of a United Germany.
It goes to show that the federal government counts about half of what an investigation of three big newspapers brought to light (see also closing note).

The easiest aggregate to underscore the difference is murders.
Which is like 4 to 198 since the inception of a United Germany.
Germany had no problem with left wing terror against people since the RAF.
(One could easily argue that burning luxurious cars or gluing yourself to the street is terror though)
The Zeit newspaper has a comprehensive list of murder victims of right wing terror.


(Even excluding the fact that our police and big party governments trends to have bad eyesight on the right side, it's abundantly clear that the right wing lunatics are the more dangerous bunch. Even our current minister for the interior said as much. Which is a crass change of tone.)
passive quaranstream fan
Elroi
Profile Joined August 2009
Sweden5595 Posts
February 24 2023 16:20 GMT
#27595
On February 24 2023 23:13 Artisreal wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 24 2023 21:45 Elroi wrote:
On February 24 2023 20:48 Artisreal wrote:
But most of the violence against people in Germany is right wing fascists violence.

Do you have a source on that?

I have to qualify my statement to only encompass political violence.
Otherwise I'd have to say that most violence is perpetrated by men.
(Facts are facts)

You can find the data at the federal intelligence service (Bundesamt für Verfassungsschutz). It's available in English and you'd have to look for right wing, left wing and Reichsbürger (another group of fascists) and according to the federal criminal police officer also a part of perpetrators of "unknown" origin (eg new grups like anti Vax) are part of right wing groups.

You'd have to dig a bit to unravel what the numbers aggregate (resisting arrest or protesting against literal Nazis is violence in that regard).
Statista has a list with more details and you can see for yourself here.

The clearest difference between left and right is murders.
Which is 4 against 113 (up to 187 or even more depending on source) since the inception of a United Germany.
It goes to show that the federal government counts about half of what an investigation of three big newspapers brought to light (see also closing note).

The easiest aggregate to underscore the difference is murders.
Which is like 4 to 198 since the inception of a United Germany.
Germany had no problem with left wing terror against people since the RAF.
(One could easily argue that burning luxurious cars or gluing yourself to the street is terror though)
The Zeit newspaper has a comprehensive list of murder victims of right wing terror.


(Even excluding the fact that our police and big party governments trends to have bad eyesight on the right side, it's abundantly clear that the right wing lunatics are the more dangerous bunch. Even our current minister for the interior said as much. Which is a crass change of tone.)

What? Has there been 198 politically motivated murders in Germany by right wing groups since the 1989? That sounds insane.
"To all eSports fans, I want to be remembered as a progamer who can make something out of nothing, and someone who always does his best. I think that is the right way of living, and I'm always doing my best to follow that." - Jaedong. /watch?v=jfghAzJqAp0
Artisreal
Profile Joined June 2009
Germany9235 Posts
February 24 2023 17:52 GMT
#27596
On February 25 2023 01:20 Elroi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 24 2023 23:13 Artisreal wrote:
On February 24 2023 21:45 Elroi wrote:
On February 24 2023 20:48 Artisreal wrote:
But most of the violence against people in Germany is right wing fascists violence.

Do you have a source on that?

I have to qualify my statement to only encompass political violence.
Otherwise I'd have to say that most violence is perpetrated by men.
(Facts are facts)

You can find the data at the federal intelligence service (Bundesamt für Verfassungsschutz). It's available in English and you'd have to look for right wing, left wing and Reichsbürger (another group of fascists) and according to the federal criminal police officer also a part of perpetrators of "unknown" origin (eg new grups like anti Vax) are part of right wing groups.

You'd have to dig a bit to unravel what the numbers aggregate (resisting arrest or protesting against literal Nazis is violence in that regard).
Statista has a list with more details and you can see for yourself here.

The clearest difference between left and right is murders.
Which is 4 against 113 (up to 187 or even more depending on source) since the inception of a United Germany.
It goes to show that the federal government counts about half of what an investigation of three big newspapers brought to light (see also closing note).

The easiest aggregate to underscore the difference is murders.
Which is like 4 to 198 since the inception of a United Germany.
Germany had no problem with left wing terror against people since the RAF.
(One could easily argue that burning luxurious cars or gluing yourself to the street is terror though)
The Zeit newspaper has a comprehensive list of murder victims of right wing terror.


(Even excluding the fact that our police and big party governments trends to have bad eyesight on the right side, it's abundantly clear that the right wing lunatics are the more dangerous bunch. Even our current minister for the interior said as much. Which is a crass change of tone.)

What? Has there been 198 politically motivated murders in Germany by right wing groups since the 1989? That sounds insane.

Well, about 110 are officially recognized as victims of the extreme right.
+ Show Spoiler [Original and DeepL translation] +

Original:
Die Gesamtzahl der Todesopfer im Phänomenbereich Politisch motivierte Kriminalität -rechts- im Zeitraum von 1990 bis zum 31. Oktober 2020 beträgt 106 Personen. Bezüglich der Aufschlüsselung der Jahre von 1990 bis 2000 wird auf Bundestagsdrucksache 19/2769 verwiesen.

Translation:
The total number of fatalities in the phenomenon area of politically motivated criminality -right- in the period from 1990 to October 31, 2020 is 106 persons. For a breakdown of the years from 1990 to 2000, please refer to the Bundestag document 19/2769.

Source:
https://dserver.bundestag.de/btd/19/252/1925216.pdf


The bigger (more accurate) numbers are result of different organizations or journalists compiling better data than official statistics care for or are able to.

You can have a look at the murder incidents on a map, a case by case and victim by victim basis here (German):
https://www.zeit.de/gesellschaft/zeitgeschehen/2018-09/todesopfer-rechte-gewalt-karte-portraet
passive quaranstream fan
Acrofales
Profile Joined August 2010
Spain17971 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-02-24 17:59:09
February 24 2023 17:53 GMT
#27597
On February 25 2023 01:20 Elroi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 24 2023 23:13 Artisreal wrote:
On February 24 2023 21:45 Elroi wrote:
On February 24 2023 20:48 Artisreal wrote:
But most of the violence against people in Germany is right wing fascists violence.

Do you have a source on that?

I have to qualify my statement to only encompass political violence.
Otherwise I'd have to say that most violence is perpetrated by men.
(Facts are facts)

You can find the data at the federal intelligence service (Bundesamt für Verfassungsschutz). It's available in English and you'd have to look for right wing, left wing and Reichsbürger (another group of fascists) and according to the federal criminal police officer also a part of perpetrators of "unknown" origin (eg new grups like anti Vax) are part of right wing groups.

You'd have to dig a bit to unravel what the numbers aggregate (resisting arrest or protesting against literal Nazis is violence in that regard).
Statista has a list with more details and you can see for yourself here.

The clearest difference between left and right is murders.
Which is 4 against 113 (up to 187 or even more depending on source) since the inception of a United Germany.
It goes to show that the federal government counts about half of what an investigation of three big newspapers brought to light (see also closing note).

The easiest aggregate to underscore the difference is murders.
Which is like 4 to 198 since the inception of a United Germany.
Germany had no problem with left wing terror against people since the RAF.
(One could easily argue that burning luxurious cars or gluing yourself to the street is terror though)
The Zeit newspaper has a comprehensive list of murder victims of right wing terror.


(Even excluding the fact that our police and big party governments trends to have bad eyesight on the right side, it's abundantly clear that the right wing lunatics are the more dangerous bunch. Even our current minister for the interior said as much. Which is a crass change of tone.)

What? Has there been 198 politically motivated murders in Germany by right wing groups since the 1989? That sounds insane.


Even including all hate crimes (even just senseless violence that doesn't necessarily have any ideological motivation), that sounds high for 33 years. It's 6 per year.

Okay, saw you replied. 110 in 33 years seems more likely. 1 death for ideological reasons every 4 months sounds high, but Germany is a big country.

E2: how do they count something like the Islamic State terrorist attack in Berlin in 2016. That's neither left nor right wing, and should be on a separate axis, but it's still politically motivated murders.
Sent.
Profile Joined June 2012
Poland9182 Posts
February 24 2023 18:11 GMT
#27598
Islamic terrorism earned its own category, they don't include it in right/left wing extremism statistics.
You're now breathing manually
Artisreal
Profile Joined June 2009
Germany9235 Posts
February 24 2023 18:20 GMT
#27599
On February 25 2023 02:53 Acrofales wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 25 2023 01:20 Elroi wrote:
On February 24 2023 23:13 Artisreal wrote:
On February 24 2023 21:45 Elroi wrote:
On February 24 2023 20:48 Artisreal wrote:
But most of the violence against people in Germany is right wing fascists violence.

Do you have a source on that?

I have to qualify my statement to only encompass political violence.
Otherwise I'd have to say that most violence is perpetrated by men.
(Facts are facts)

You can find the data at the federal intelligence service (Bundesamt für Verfassungsschutz). It's available in English and you'd have to look for right wing, left wing and Reichsbürger (another group of fascists) and according to the federal criminal police officer also a part of perpetrators of "unknown" origin (eg new grups like anti Vax) are part of right wing groups.

You'd have to dig a bit to unravel what the numbers aggregate (resisting arrest or protesting against literal Nazis is violence in that regard).
Statista has a list with more details and you can see for yourself here.

The clearest difference between left and right is murders.
Which is 4 against 113 (up to 187 or even more depending on source) since the inception of a United Germany.
It goes to show that the federal government counts about half of what an investigation of three big newspapers brought to light (see also closing note).

The easiest aggregate to underscore the difference is murders.
Which is like 4 to 198 since the inception of a United Germany.
Germany had no problem with left wing terror against people since the RAF.
(One could easily argue that burning luxurious cars or gluing yourself to the street is terror though)
The Zeit newspaper has a comprehensive list of murder victims of right wing terror.


(Even excluding the fact that our police and big party governments trends to have bad eyesight on the right side, it's abundantly clear that the right wing lunatics are the more dangerous bunch. Even our current minister for the interior said as much. Which is a crass change of tone.)

What? Has there been 198 politically motivated murders in Germany by right wing groups since the 1989? That sounds insane.


Even including all hate crimes (even just senseless violence that doesn't necessarily have any ideological motivation), that sounds high for 33 years. It's 6 per year.

Okay, saw you replied. 110 in 33 years seems more likely. 1 death for ideological reasons every 4 months sounds high, but Germany is a big country.

E2: how do they count something like the Islamic State terrorist attack in Berlin in 2016. That's neither left nor right wing, and should be on a separate axis, but it's still politically motivated murders.

110 is not a real number. it's a bureaucratic way to say we have no idea what happens to our citizens.
See the "Zeit" newspaper page I linked. It is highly likely that the real number is significantly higher, as also demonstrated by the Amadeo-Antonio foundation.
Amadeo-Antonio was one of the first victims of extreme right violence in the united Germany, beaten to death because he was black.

The point I was making is that both recent as well as more distant history shows us clearly that nazis are far more dangerous than left wing extremists.
That's why I always contradict the horseshitshoe theory with regards to Germany.

IS terrorism is counted under Islamism and Islamic terrorism.
passive quaranstream fan
Mafe
Profile Joined February 2011
Germany5966 Posts
February 24 2023 23:30 GMT
#27600
Obviously such numbers are a highly controversial matter. My personal impression on this subject is:
-German authorities, as well the as the majority of german society, have for a long time turned a blind eye towards the relevance of far right motives of crimes, including homicide. It started changing maybe 20 years ago.
-Retroactively figuring out the circumstances from homicides 30+ years ago seems like a difficult task, especially when in many of the cases in question many of the victims (asylum seekers, homeless) were probably relatively isolated people.
-Of course every single death is an unspeakable tragedy. Yet, in many countries, the law distinguishes between different cases of gravity regarding homicide. Such is the case in these statistics, which include outright murder as well as cases where the court has decided that the culprit(s) were not guilty of murder, but "only" of crimes which in english probably translate to "aggravated assault leading to death" or "aggravated arson leading to death". Essentially, this means the death was a collateral and not the main goal. But it might also be that there was no definitive proof.
Prev 1 1378 1379 1380 1381 1382 1413 Next
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Wardi Open
11:00
#43
WardiTV1308
OGKoka 526
Harstem427
IndyStarCraft 225
Rex158
CranKy Ducklings128
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
OGKoka 526
Harstem 427
mouzHeroMarine 297
Hui .232
IndyStarCraft 225
Rex 158
StarCraft: Brood War
Bisu 2763
Jaedong 2340
Flash 2210
EffOrt 916
ZerO 717
Hyuk 681
Soulkey 514
Snow 500
actioN 459
Larva 436
[ Show more ]
Stork 404
firebathero 256
Soma 253
GuemChi 224
Mind 110
sSak 96
TY 82
PianO 68
hero 55
Yoon 55
Sharp 52
Barracks 49
JulyZerg 44
Aegong 31
sorry 29
JYJ29
Terrorterran 23
yabsab 19
HiyA 18
soO 18
GoRush 15
Rock 15
IntoTheRainbow 10
Shine 9
Dota 2
Gorgc5389
qojqva4157
syndereN481
League of Legends
singsing2373
Dendi1094
Counter-Strike
byalli313
markeloff128
Super Smash Bros
Mew2King230
Other Games
hiko1813
B2W.Neo1103
Beastyqt634
crisheroes378
Lowko346
ArmadaUGS144
Liquid`VortiX128
ZerO(Twitch)18
Trikslyr3
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick41702
StarCraft: Brood War
UltimateBattle 600
StarCraft 2
IntoTheiNu 17
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 13 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• C_a_k_e 3357
• WagamamaTV442
League of Legends
• Nemesis6990
Upcoming Events
RotterdaM Event
1h 7m
Replay Cast
9h 7m
Sparkling Tuna Cup
19h 7m
WardiTV European League
1d 1h
MaNa vs sebesdes
Mixu vs Fjant
ByuN vs HeRoMaRinE
ShoWTimE vs goblin
Gerald vs Babymarine
Krystianer vs YoungYakov
PiGosaur Monday
1d 9h
The PondCast
1d 19h
WardiTV European League
1d 21h
Jumy vs NightPhoenix
Percival vs Nicoract
ArT vs HiGhDrA
MaxPax vs Harstem
Scarlett vs Shameless
SKillous vs uThermal
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
2 days
Replay Cast
2 days
RSL Revival
2 days
ByuN vs SHIN
Clem vs Reynor
[ Show More ]
Replay Cast
3 days
RSL Revival
3 days
Classic vs Cure
FEL
4 days
RSL Revival
4 days
FEL
4 days
FEL
5 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
5 days
Bonyth vs QiaoGege
Dewalt vs Fengzi
Hawk vs Zhanhun
Sziky vs Mihu
Mihu vs QiaoGege
Zhanhun vs Sziky
Fengzi vs Hawk
Sparkling Tuna Cup
5 days
RSL Revival
5 days
FEL
6 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
6 days
Bonyth vs Dewalt
QiaoGege vs Dewalt
Hawk vs Bonyth
Sziky vs Fengzi
Mihu vs Zhanhun
QiaoGege vs Zhanhun
Fengzi vs Mihu
Liquipedia Results

Completed

BSL Season 20
HSC XXVII
Heroes 10 EU

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
BSL 2v2 Season 3
Acropolis #3
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
CSL 17: 2025 SUMMER
Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
Championship of Russia 2025
RSL Revival: Season 1
Murky Cup #2
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters
CCT Season 2 Global Finals
IEM Melbourne 2025

Upcoming

2025 ACS Season 2: Qualifier
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSL Xiamen Invitational
2025 ACS Season 2
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
K-Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
SEL Season 2 Championship
FEL Cracov 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.