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On July 17 2013 05:06 packrat386 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2013 05:02 beg wrote:On July 17 2013 05:00 packrat386 wrote:On July 17 2013 04:57 beg wrote:On July 17 2013 04:39 packrat386 wrote:On July 17 2013 04:34 AnomalySC2 wrote:On July 17 2013 04:18 packrat386 wrote:On July 17 2013 04:10 AnomalySC2 wrote:On July 17 2013 03:35 Pr0wler wrote:On July 17 2013 03:04 AnomalySC2 wrote:
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Indeed. Though, it will be sad if no change is brought about from his sacrifice. Our government will do anything it can to keep it's NSA surveillance weapon in working order, and it seems like we're all pretty powerless vs such a powerful entity. Lol, what changes ? Look how they react to this. Instead of apologizing for all this shit, they want to capture the guy that exposed them and then kill him. EU(biggest ally) told the US gov. that what they did is not good and they are not happy about it, to say the least... What was the reaction ? Not a single word. US government does whatever it wants and I'm wondering why the people - free citizens - are doing nothing about it. Why there are no protests, riots etc ? For example in Luxembourg the prime minister Jean-Claude Juncker resigned for similar reasons last week. I think people are just scared and or don't care. If you've experienced first hand just how powerful of a weapon the NSA/FBI alliance can be at oppression/life ruination, then you will probably feel hopeless about the entire situation. I imagine people that aren't fully aware just how shady/powerful and deep the rabbit hole at the NSA truly goes, you likely don't care. You keep posting this kind of stuff. What are these weapons of "oppression/life ruination" that you're talking about, and could we please get some sources? I agree that invasions of privacy are bad, but its a far stretch to say that the NSA listening to my personal calls is going to ruin my life. You can't get solid sources, that's the entire point. You think they will just let that type of stuff out into the public willingly? I think if you're going to hear about it from anyone, it will be from mr. Snowden himself considering he has eluded towards seeing incredibly abusive and disturbing examples in some of his interviews before he finally decided to make the entire program public. I pray and also hope he does talk about some of the more extreme abuses the NSA/FBI combo have done to US citizens. Whether you believe me or not, which you won't, doesn't really matter. We will all have to wait and see if these types of stories come to the surface or not....I have no reason to be making stuff up about this btw, I don't have some sort of agenda or whatever drives people to try and manipulate opinions. Just someone that knows he has been a target by this god awful program over the past 3 or so years. Hint, when you find out something about a multibillion dollar tech focused company that could ultimately cost them a lot of money if people learned about it, well that alone is enough of a reason for these guys to oppress you. This is ridiculous. You have a totally non-falsifiable argument because all of the bad stuff that's supposedly happening is "secret" and yet you want other people to believe it. You really think that in this day and age of viral videos and such that the FBI could run a secret torture regime and nobody would notice and tell people? Don't drink the kool-aid. well, they did (do) run a sick surveillance program until snowden revealed it, didnt they? no? where were all the viral videos revealing this?  As noted earlier in this thread, people knew that sort of thing was going on anyway, and snowden is certainly not the first to leak secret US info. Also wiretapping is a far cry from secret torture/oppression. people didnt know at all. people were afraid that this stuff might be happening, but being aware that all your skype calls are actually target of surveillance? people KNEW THAT? are you kidding me? poeple DID NOT know that. people did not know the scale of this shit. they just didnt. yes, everyone was afraid, cause so many people didnt trust their governments anymore. NOW THEY HAVE PROOF: that's the whole point, ok? You're missing the point. AnomalySC2 is arguing that there is a secret FBI apparatus of "oppression/life runiation" and that its secret so any evidence I bring up as to why it doesn't exist doesn't count. The argument is non-falsifiable and thus I reject it. I don't really have some point to prove about how important snowden's leaks are, but as said before, you should probably be more worried about microsoft monitoring your skype calls than the NSA.
what do you think would have happend to snowden if he would have told someone of the nsa or fbi: btw guys i will release information on how you spy on your allies
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Poland3753 Posts
On July 15 2013 23:48 Silvanel wrote:
Imagine the shitstorm. Obama would probably gave his own award back. Not that this award holds much prestige....
If he give his award back, it will be win-win scenario.
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Meh, somehow Norway managed to devalue the Nobel Prize. Hopefully people still regard the other categories with some respect.
And I dont think Snowden should/will get one.
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On July 17 2013 10:46 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2013 10:09 Shiori wrote:
As far as I know, the army, by which I assume you mean the American army, hasn't "maintained stability" on American soil for longer than anyone has been alive. Alright then, here's an experiment for you: take the country you live in, and imagine that the entire armed forces of said country was disbanded. Is that country more stable now? Oh and, ironically, much of your post was once again a strawman because I was responding to a post regarding Manning and quelling riots. There was nothing there addressing US overseas activities, which is another topic altogether.
looking at my countryit would not make ANY difference in any aspect of 99.9% of the lives of the people here if there are armed forces or not
I see why an American can't imagine that but when people have guns in their homes but guess what: it is possible
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looking at my countryit would not make ANY difference in any aspect of 99.9% of the lives of the people here if there are armed forces or not
and that's exactly the problem, a country as important as germany and there is that kind of a disconnect from reality in too much of the population.
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Snowden deserves it way more than Obama does! Hopefully this whole topic will be discussed more frequently among us netizens/esport-fans!
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On July 17 2013 18:52 DeepElemBlues wrote:Show nested quote +looking at my countryit would not make ANY difference in any aspect of 99.9% of the lives of the people here if there are armed forces or not and that's exactly the problem, a country as important as germany and there is that kind of a disconnect from reality in too much of the population.
Who is disconnected from reality is up to debate.
You as americans may fear the future, but what I am afraid of is that history repeats itself.
How many countries that control their own people, that take the rights of their own people aways and that fight against their own people have ever worked?
It has happened in the past, it has happened even in ancient times and it has never worked out.
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On July 17 2013 13:45 cLAN.Anax wrote:He deserves a prison cell. Snowden signed up knowing he'd have to keep silent about the sensitive secrets he would be entrusted with. How is this not treasonous sabotage? He deserves punishment, not recognition. Show nested quote +Svallfors also believes this will help the Peace Prize regain some of respect it lost after prematurely awarding Barack Obama the award in 2009. Bahahaha. The Nobel Prize reputation would only plummet farther.
soo if someone in noth korea joins the military forces, makes it to the very top and gets confronted with plans to nuke the US (don't complain about logic pls it just an example) and he decides: "no I got to stop this" and somehow manages to get the information about the plans out into the world he should, following your logic, be sent to prison in any country he tries to escape to? I mean it was an act of treason and surely he shouldn't be rewarded for it ,right?
You got to put yourself in a neutral perspective here. I mean the US spied on their ALLIES how is that justifiable at all? and then their biggest worry is to go after the man who has revealed this fact instead of apologizing or something....
how would you feel in that situation?
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On July 17 2013 18:52 DeepElemBlues wrote:Show nested quote +looking at my countryit would not make ANY difference in any aspect of 99.9% of the lives of the people here if there are armed forces or not and that's exactly the problem, a country as important as germany and there is that kind of a disconnect from reality in too much of the population.
well you know, if I look at the situation that the USA are in right now, where China could just make their economy collapse with a snap of Jinpings fingers I must say that it seems pretty "disconnected from reality" to me that they invest the most money out of every country into their military for no real reason
If the world would really want to erase the USA as they seem to like to think their army alone would not save them. (and I'm not talking about terrorists so pls don't start with that)
And when I look at Romneys demands to punish China for what they are doing with their economy.... well let's just say I can't even begin to understand that amount of arrogance
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Of COURSE he shouldn't and that's frankly a ridiculous thing to say. I know the peace prize has been devalued in recent times, but seriously!
Snowden is a criminal. Don't get me wrong, bringing the illegal activities of the NSA to light should absolutely have been done - but the US actually has an excellent way of doing things like that legally - your bring the issues up to your congressman. Snowden did the wrong thing, straight-up and shouldn't be lauded just because the US government did a lot worse.
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I think he should get it for what he did, but considering that "great men", or should I maybe say criminals, like Obama have gotten it before it might be considered an insult to Snowden if you put him on the same level with these people.
The USA are obviously unable to follow any rules and aggreements they impose or suggest onto other countries, so maybe it is time to stop working so closely with the USA and look for more honest friends.
It hurts me to say this though because most people in the USA are very nice and friendly people, a complete contrast to their government.
I think you guys really need to get your government cleaned out.
And by that I mean elections, not anything else, a good start would also be to reform the ridiculously outdated voting system, and create more than one party with 2 right wings.
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On July 17 2013 19:32 althaz wrote:
Of COURSE he shouldn't and that's frankly a ridiculous thing to say. I know the peace prize has been devalued in recent times, but seriously!
Snowden is a criminal. Don't get me wrong, bringing the illegal activities of the NSA to light should absolutely have been done - but the US actually has an excellent way of doing things like that legally - your bring the issues up to your congressman. Snowden did the wrong thing, straight-up and shouldn't be lauded just because the US government did a lot worse.
He is a criminal only in USA. Rest of the world thinks he is a hero.
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On July 17 2013 16:42 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2013 16:27 Mataza wrote:
This argument is stupid.
Of course you don't know which secrets you are not allowed to tell when you agree to an oath of secrecy. You think they tell you the secrets first and then want you to agree to keep them secret? That's not how secrets work. You don't share them just because you don't agree with them. Don't like them? Too bad. Sharing them is and should be treated as a criminal offense. (Just to clarify, I'm not sure whether or not you got it, but that line you quoted was sarcasm)
If the secrets you learn are of an illegal nature, and has the potential to directly harm the people he signed on to protect, I'd argue he had an obligation to bring that information forward. The Constitution is still the highest law in the land, and there's lots of people out there who takes oaths to protect that and ignore it. Whether there were better ways of releasing the information, I don't know, but it was good he did.
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On July 17 2013 19:43 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2013 19:32 althaz wrote:
Of COURSE he shouldn't and that's frankly a ridiculous thing to say. I know the peace prize has been devalued in recent times, but seriously!
Snowden is a criminal. Don't get me wrong, bringing the illegal activities of the NSA to light should absolutely have been done - but the US actually has an excellent way of doing things like that legally - your bring the issues up to your congressman. Snowden did the wrong thing, straight-up and shouldn't be lauded just because the US government did a lot worse. He is a criminal only in USA. Rest of the world thinks he is a hero.
I don't think he is a hero. A hero shows valour and courage. He only showed how to betray his own country by showing how the intelligence agencies find people that may or may not commit acts of terror within the US.
The espionage done on Allies is something undoubtably every major country, that has the resources, have done. In a perfect world No country would spy on its allies, but it isn't a perfect country. We all have to look at our own best interest.
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Poland3753 Posts
On July 17 2013 19:43 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2013 19:32 althaz wrote:
Of COURSE he shouldn't and that's frankly a ridiculous thing to say. I know the peace prize has been devalued in recent times, but seriously!
Snowden is a criminal. Don't get me wrong, bringing the illegal activities of the NSA to light should absolutely have been done - but the US actually has an excellent way of doing things like that legally - your bring the issues up to your congressman. Snowden did the wrong thing, straight-up and shouldn't be lauded just because the US government did a lot worse. He is a criminal only in USA. Rest of the world thinks he is a hero.
And that US government sucks more and more with each passing year after 9/11. They went from being the pillar of liberty in democration to democratish big brother state.
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On July 17 2013 19:32 althaz wrote:
Of COURSE he shouldn't and that's frankly a ridiculous thing to say. I know the peace prize has been devalued in recent times, but seriously!
Snowden is a criminal. Don't get me wrong, bringing the illegal activities of the NSA to light should absolutely have been done - but the US actually has an excellent way of doing things like that legally - your bring the issues up to your congressman. Snowden did the wrong thing, straight-up and shouldn't be lauded just because the US government did a lot worse.
Well if you think, it is that easy, question is why didn't this come out earlier?
No one ever tried? All corrupt? It should make you think, why he did what he did.
Why the US establishment whats him painted as a criminal so badly, while most of the world (the people) see him cleary as an hero.
On July 17 2013 20:11 TheRealArtemis wrote:
I don't think he is a hero. A hero shows valour and courage. He only showed how to betray his own country by showing how the intelligence agencies find people that may or may not commit acts of terror within the US.
The espionage done on Allies is something undoubtably every major country, that has the resources, have done. In a perfect world No country would spy on its allies, but it isn't a perfect country. We all have to look at our own best interest.
Sacrificing your normal life and future for something you have no personal gain for yourself, is a clearly selfless act.
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Poland3753 Posts
On July 17 2013 20:11 TheRealArtemis wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2013 19:43 -Archangel- wrote:On July 17 2013 19:32 althaz wrote:
Of COURSE he shouldn't and that's frankly a ridiculous thing to say. I know the peace prize has been devalued in recent times, but seriously!
Snowden is a criminal. Don't get me wrong, bringing the illegal activities of the NSA to light should absolutely have been done - but the US actually has an excellent way of doing things like that legally - your bring the issues up to your congressman. Snowden did the wrong thing, straight-up and shouldn't be lauded just because the US government did a lot worse. He is a criminal only in USA. Rest of the world thinks he is a hero. I don't think he is a hero. A hero shows valour and courage. He only showed how to betray his own country by showing how the intelligence agencies find people that may or may not commit acts of terror within the US. The espionage done on Allies is something undoubtably every major country, that has the resources, have done. In a perfect world No country would spy on its allies, but it isn't a perfect country. We all have to look at our own best interest.
Do you honestly think doing what he did does not require courage?
He didn't just betray his country - and to be honest it's debatable he actually betrayed country as a whole - he showed how hypocritical US is and how much US violates civil liberties of people around the world.
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On July 17 2013 20:11 TheRealArtemis wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2013 19:43 -Archangel- wrote:On July 17 2013 19:32 althaz wrote:
Of COURSE he shouldn't and that's frankly a ridiculous thing to say. I know the peace prize has been devalued in recent times, but seriously!
Snowden is a criminal. Don't get me wrong, bringing the illegal activities of the NSA to light should absolutely have been done - but the US actually has an excellent way of doing things like that legally - your bring the issues up to your congressman. Snowden did the wrong thing, straight-up and shouldn't be lauded just because the US government did a lot worse. He is a criminal only in USA. Rest of the world thinks he is a hero. I don't think he is a hero. A hero shows valour and courage. He only showed how to betray his own country by showing how the intelligence agencies find people that may or may not commit acts of terror within the US. The espionage done on Allies is something undoubtably every major country, that has the resources, have done. In a perfect world No country would spy on its allies, but it isn't a perfect country. We all have to look at our own best interest.
Even though you can suppose everyone does it, there's a difference between supposing and having reasonable evidence. Any country that transgresses by spying on other countries can and should be punished by the international public opinion (if not by international law in relevant cases). The idea is to convince the transgressor to cut back a bit on his intelligence gathering or at the very least force him to spend more money in order to not get caught again, making the following shitstorm when eventually they're caught actually big enough to solve the issue.
By embracing that spying is the norm and should be accepted no matter how far it goes, you make a mockery of the international community when you consider that absolutely no country spends as much on intelligence as the US and most don't even have the means (economy) to try.
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On July 17 2013 20:15 nimdil wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2013 20:11 TheRealArtemis wrote:On July 17 2013 19:43 -Archangel- wrote:On July 17 2013 19:32 althaz wrote:
Of COURSE he shouldn't and that's frankly a ridiculous thing to say. I know the peace prize has been devalued in recent times, but seriously!
Snowden is a criminal. Don't get me wrong, bringing the illegal activities of the NSA to light should absolutely have been done - but the US actually has an excellent way of doing things like that legally - your bring the issues up to your congressman. Snowden did the wrong thing, straight-up and shouldn't be lauded just because the US government did a lot worse. He is a criminal only in USA. Rest of the world thinks he is a hero. I don't think he is a hero. A hero shows valour and courage. He only showed how to betray his own country by showing how the intelligence agencies find people that may or may not commit acts of terror within the US. The espionage done on Allies is something undoubtably every major country, that has the resources, have done. In a perfect world No country would spy on its allies, but it isn't a perfect country. We all have to look at our own best interest. Do you honestly think doing what he did does not require courage? He didn't just betray his country - and to be honest it's debatable he actually betrayed country as a whole - he showed how hypocritical US is and how much US violates civil liberties of people around the world.
No. It would be courageous if he faced the US and the Media, but he ran and hid himself from the criminal acts he did.
Perhaps true. But it has shown that the UK and France did the same thing. But It only matter if the US does it for some reason.
Edit: spelling etc.
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On July 17 2013 20:35 TheRealArtemis wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2013 20:15 nimdil wrote:On July 17 2013 20:11 TheRealArtemis wrote:On July 17 2013 19:43 -Archangel- wrote:On July 17 2013 19:32 althaz wrote:
Of COURSE he shouldn't and that's frankly a ridiculous thing to say. I know the peace prize has been devalued in recent times, but seriously!
Snowden is a criminal. Don't get me wrong, bringing the illegal activities of the NSA to light should absolutely have been done - but the US actually has an excellent way of doing things like that legally - your bring the issues up to your congressman. Snowden did the wrong thing, straight-up and shouldn't be lauded just because the US government did a lot worse. He is a criminal only in USA. Rest of the world thinks he is a hero. I don't think he is a hero. A hero shows valour and courage. He only showed how to betray his own country by showing how the intelligence agencies find people that may or may not commit acts of terror within the US. The espionage done on Allies is something undoubtably every major country, that has the resources, have done. In a perfect world No country would spy on its allies, but it isn't a perfect country. We all have to look at our own best interest. Do you honestly think doing what he did does not require courage? He didn't just betray his country - and to be honest it's debatable he actually betrayed country as a whole - he showed how hypocritical US is and how much US violates civil liberties of people around the world. No. It would be courageous if he faced the US and the Media, but he ran and hid himself from the criminal acts he did. Perhaps true. But it has shown that the UK and France did the same thing. But It only matter if the US does it for some reason. Edit: spelling etc.
It matters the most to the world that the US does it because it makes us the largest hypocrites you've ever seen. We're trampling our laws and yours, our rights and yours, and admonishing those who do the SAME THING. The fact is, we've KNOWN the US has been doing it. We've KNOWN France and the UK were doing it. But now it's a public spectacle, those who care are making a big deal about it, because they have a window where people won't call them conspiracy theorists and traitorous jerks.
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