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On March 29 2006 17:26 Liquid`Drone wrote:Show nested quote + On March 29 2006 17:03 Feuerbach wrote:There was a factory farm with many chickens. They had no space, lived in poop, and cried all day long. Some grew weary of life and died prematurely of sorrow. Others fought the cage, and bled. There was a chicken who did neither, and she did not cry. The other chickens cursed her, saying "What is wrong with you? You are stagnant. Be a chicken! Hate the cage!" to me it seemed like he meant the positive one is the chicken who did neither and did not cry. being positive usually means you're happy, and if you're happy, you are normally not desiring change, at least less than an unhappy person. the chicken that did not cry and did not fight the cage was the one who had accepted her position and realized she could not change things, and then attempted to get the best she possibly could get out of her life. an unhappy person does not need a different life, he needs a different mindset.
I can assume that, but I don't think it made any sense next to what Mora was saying. Mora said that he had friends who cursed where they were, but did nothing about it, and also one other friend who kind of never moved on his own or something. He wants friends who can move themselves towards happiness on their own. Self-motivation.
Where's motivation in Feuerbach's metaphor? The chicken who bleeds hurts itself by trying to run away. Maybe that is like the friends who bitch. Okay. The chicken who gives up in sadness, I guess is like the stagnant person? But is it clear whether the stagnant person is unhappy or not? It's implied that they are unhappy since that's sort of what Mora was talking about. But actually his point, as he clarified on this page, was the stagnation all along. In light of that, what the hell is Feuerbach's metaphor? Is the happy stagnation a synthesis of the best part of fleeing and the best part of staying still? Who is that supposed to be? Mora says he's moving. He's none of the above either. His stagnant friend could be either the happy or unhappy stagnate at present... I'm sure that will be clarified soon, but either way...
None of the 3 chickens could be Mora. Except maybe the happy one. But Mora's not standing still, see? But he's the only happy one. For the story to make sense, it has to be explained how Mora, the happy forward-mover, fits into the puzzle. Maybe he moves within the cage without bleeding? Anyways, I've spent too much time on his nonsense.
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Norway28911 Posts
you certainly bring up a nice point, in the happy chicken's lack of "moving forward". what I think though, is the happy chicken is a person who is happy despite having problems.
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So what would the problems be? Being a chicken in a cage=problems. These are objective, out there, problems.
You choose how you relate to the outer world ultimately (a subjective move). Mora relates to it joyfully. Others are caught up in the object and must relate to "the facts" merely? Is it as simple as that?
This somehow sounds somewhat dishonest, existentialist, Sartean bullshit, if that's what Feuerbach meant. We can't simply choose to be happy regardless of the circumstances, can we?
Well, no matter. What Mora is talking about are issues that very much could be no problem to people who put things in perspective. Being unhappy doesn't help. In fact, this whole "being unhappy" seems like a self-trick, doesn't it, kind of an excuse to get out of responsibility, the challenge of effort and doing something.
I think Mora sounds like a hero. But it is puzzling that he is wishing for anything at all, right? Maybe he is just kind of wishing there was something to wish for, since everyone around him seems to be like that.
No, no. I'm sure he wishes for plenty... It's complicated, you know? The point is, he is not unnecessarily moping. He isn't counter-productive. It's productivity, a happy productivity. He has a kind of strength, and others have a kind of weakness.
He thinks it would be nice to be around people who do something besides be counter-productive and repetively sad all the time...
I'm sure all these lazy sad people feel the same way. That's why they have him as a friend. He's just quality. Quality is relative, quality is rare, etc. Therefore, quality is more likely to be among lesser quality. And quality struggles with this. What is the method for quality to follow?
There are numerous filters in society. If you run yourself through enough of them you will be left surrounded by the right people. Unless these filters are broken, which they mostly are. At least that's my experience.
So what's Mora doing wrong? He said it's hard for him to meet people. So maybe this means that he meets people who find it hard to meet people, since he and they are in a similar situation in this respect. But what he really should be doing is trying to meet people who manage their lives well. Become a CEO or something, I guess.
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I don't think I have any friends that would seriously "bother" me with their problems (aside from a few girls..). Sure, sometimes they will briefly bitch about their job, getting up early, college papers due, girls etc., but they do it in a humorous way. For instance, my friend Dan got fired a month or so ago, he was laughing about it and making fun of the fact that he might get evicted from his apartment if he cant make the rent. Some people need to simply lighten up and try to get through life's problems with a smile, and a lot of beer in some cases. 
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Sorry susan, to clarify about my best friend.
My best friend (whose name is Chris so i don't need to keep referring to him as my best friend) is a good example of someone who is content, but not happy. But more importantly, it touches on my original point of independence. I will elaborate on both.
Chris is content with how his life is. He wakes up in the morning, he plays world of warcraft, he hangs out with friends, smokes alot of pot, and does not go to school or have a job, and so must rely on others to support him. He is not averse to working or going to school, he is averse to the effort in seeking either. And in the meantime he is completely dependant on anyone who is willing to accept his indepenence. So, assuming that everyone will tolerate supporting him, he is a happy fellow. But, he makes no effort to maintain that happiness. And this is where i think he is a perfect example of someone who is content but not really happy. If you were to give him a million dollars, and were to ask him what he would do with it, he would tell you he would want to go snowboarding. He would buy a sail boat. He would buy a shitload of pot. He would treat all of his friends out for a good dinner, or 10, or enough dinners for a year. And if you were to ask him why he wants these things, he would tell you because these things make him happy. But he is stagnant. He does not want to work for these things. He does not want to move in any direction if he must choose to go in that direction himself. And he is content in that position. He will not complain about his life not having these things that make him happy, and he won't even percieve his lack of having them as a unhappy occurence. He is content. And stagnant. And depenent on others. Which is where it all ties in.
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Holy crap Susan Reader actually covered the weaknesses in his thesis! However, if you don't mind, I would like some examples of these filters and how they are broken, then I can mark this as something worth remembering over a course of time and something to reminscence about when I am finally banned from this website and prior to my inevitable killing spree at a shopping mall where I will take someone who would talk like you, act like you, and react like you and realize the sheer agony and value of words you have bestowed about my mind, the impossible threshold I thought possible in my childhood, realized and fortified by your ever-growning prescence, a thought, a sheer thought, that will journey into the crevices of my pitch black testimony at the court where I will laugh at the face of the dead child's parents and mock their every emotion, until the point where his father would point the gun at me, and lay his hands over my neck in a hold, where from there on, I would fall into a shrink, oblivious and lost in the enviroment, but smiling amongst it all, and return here, about the simple story of the chicken that learned to lose insight from his surroundings, ignore the words of moral control and natural reactions, and continue to shrink deeper and deeper into profound destruction.
Oh man this is beyond retarded, I need some fucking sleep. Sorry for wasting your time. But I do enjoy your interpretations, continue to do so please.
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I have friends...i don't like some of them...but they are kk. Sometimes they are mean to me though, cause i am not so good at sports they play. just don't like basketball or soccer very much.
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Wow, you've given me alot to think about.
On March 29 2006 17:47 Susan Reader wrote:
Well, no matter. What Mora is talking about are issues that very much could be no problem to people who put things in perspective. Being unhappy doesn't help. In fact, this whole "being unhappy" seems like a self-trick, doesn't it, kind of an excuse to get out of responsibility, the challenge of effort and doing something.
It is an excuse. The above paragraph will launch me into 2 different tangeants that i would like to share. The first tangeant is the idea 'excuse'. What is an excuse? An excuse is an explanation used to justify the actions one has partaken in. So, to rephrase, in my own words: "I am Failing. This is why". A person can list many reasons to fail. And, probably, alot of those reasons are valid. But regardless of how valid and understandable your excuse is, you are still failing. Either this is ok, or it is not. I, personally, have an extremely long list of excuses as to why my life won't work out the way i want it to. But i have one good reason why it will. I want it to. This reasoning is the only reasoning i need to make it work. Life can throw all that it can at me. And, despite that, at the end of the day i want it to work. I really see no other alternative.
My second tangeant will explore the 'self-trick' you mentioned. I believe this self-trick is the minds inclination towards 2 things: 1) fearing the unknown. 2) familiarity. A person might not be happy with their current circumstance, but because they are alive and experiencing it, they know they can continue to do so. If they try something new, it might be worse than what is occurring at present. Something that is familiar is easy. Something familiar is inherently more bearable than something unforseen.
I think Mora sounds like a hero.
Of course i am a hero. Thats the point of it all. I'm my own fucking hero. And that's the way it should be. For me, anyone, and everyone else. Why one would allow someone other than themselves be their hero is confounding.
He thinks it would be nice to be around people who do something besides be counter-productive and repetively sad all the time...
true, but not entirely accurate. I love being friends with the people i am friends with. I would not trade them in for anything in the world. However, i do have a desire to expand my circle of friends. My problem, is that if everyone i meet in the future will be as time consuming as my current friends are, i simply won't have the time. I have to be picky about who i now befriend, because i have only so many hours in a day.
I'm sure all these lazy sad people feel the same way. That's why they have him as a friend. He's just quality. Quality is relative, quality is rare, etc. Therefore, quality is more likely to be among lesser quality. And quality struggles with this. What is the method for quality to follow?
I feel like your putting me on some sort of pedestal. I feel that i am a quality individual, but no more than the people i have befriended. I am friends with them because my friendship with them makes me happy. I am certain that they are friends with me for the same reasons. My 'rant' for lack of a better word, is about my desire to meet independent people, and that desire being unfulfilled. I think my explanation as to why my friends don't fulfill that desire (my first post) came across as belittling them (based on the number of responses that imply im not ok with people not having perfect lives).
So what's Mora doing wrong? He said it's hard for him to meet people. So maybe this means that he meets people who find it hard to meet people, since he and they are in a similar situation in this respect. But what he really should be doing is trying to meet people who manage their lives well. Become a CEO or something, I guess.
I am a highschool dropout. Infact, a 4 time highschool dropout. My goal is to meet people who are independent, and independently happy. I was never under the impression that a position as prestigious as a CEO is the only place where they are found. I hope i'm not wrong.
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I meant society's filters, such as education and occupation. Those are the routes that are challenging, traditionally. You go through those, the people around you are different, hence "be a CEO" (not literally of course).
A dropout's friends are less likely to be very rare in the respect we are talking about ("people who are independent, independently happy"). Those people are rare. I suspect you increase your chance of finding them if you find yourself among rarer people.
There is a specific kind of commonness in a society. Yes, everyone is different special and interesting, blah blah blah. But in respect to happiness and management of one's life, there are specific tracks set up for us. There are specific species of behavior that must deviate from these paths, again, rarer types and a more common "challenged" sort.
What I mean to say is that you have to do different things to meet different kinds of people. But it's a paradox. How do you find new activities without new people?
The answer: there are a limited amount of starting points offerred by society ("pure activities") in which you meet others also at these offerred starting points. These are clubs, drinking halls, jobs, schools, and so forth. These each have their depths! If you want to meet a rarer sort, you must reach the depths of somewhere! Otherwise you are literally a hay in a haystack, or maybe a needle, but what's the difference? You will never see a needle.
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On March 29 2006 18:57 Susan Reader wrote:
I meant society's filters, such as education and occupation. Those are the routes that are challenging, traditionally. You go through those, the people around you are different, hence "be a CEO" (not literally of course).
A dropout's friends are less likely to be very rare in the respect we are talking about ("people who are independent, independently happy"). Those people are rare. I suspect you increase your chance of finding them if you find yourself among rarer people.
There is a specific kind of commonness in a society. Yes, everyone is different special and interesting, blah blah blah. But in respect to happiness and management of one's life, there are specific tracks set up for us. There are specific species of behavior that must deviate from these paths, again, rarer types and a more common "challenged" sort.
What I mean to say is that you have to do different things to meet different kinds of people. But it's a paradox. How do you find new activities without new people?
The answer: there are a limited amount of starting points offerred by society ("pure activities") in which you meet others also at these offerred starting points. These are clubs, drinking halls, jobs, schools, and so forth. These each have their depths! If you want to meet a rarer sort, you must reach the depths of somewhere! Otherwise you are literally a hay in a haystack, or maybe a needle, but what's the difference? You will never see a needle.
Very excellent post.
May i have your MSN?
And are you queer?
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i surround myself with people very much like myself. very laid back. people who like to have fun.
also, i usually make an effort to talk to people i feel i can make happy.
i think i might be one of those people without problems.
if i have a problem i can fix, i do it. if i cant fix it, i forget it. i mean honestly, if you've got a problem you have no control over, why worry about it? live with it. the only problem i ever find myself with it consistently being tired :|
i think im pretty off-topic here, but just a little philosphy i have(skimming through previous posts, yep, im pretty sure im off-topic.) --
--but to be on topic, i think, last weekend i spent the entire weekend at a friends house, that i've never actually been to before. she has a party every weekend. i met a ton of new people, and honestly i've changed a lot just as a result of this past weekend. doing different things meeting new people is possibly the best thing ive ever done, and im not talking about this last weekend alone.-
-as for direction in life, i dont have one. thats another part of my being happy. i just go with it. i suppose that might be what you, teroru, define as stagnant, but its not exactly. i know where im going to school next year, thats about all the direction i have for the moment. and thats good enough for me. im enjoying myself-
im usually the one trying to tell people being unhappy isnt worth it.
ive made up my own fun little quotes that sound like shit but mean a lot to me,
try this, i used to do it back when i was an angsty little kid with so many problems. if you're mad/upset about something, smile anyway. fake it. make yourself smile. sooner or later, you'll have thought of a reason to smile, and if nothing else, because you look so stupid 
also, you'll get from the day whatever you take from it. you're in control of yourself. you're only upset because you let yourself. some people will tell me thats a crock of shit, but like i said, if you have no control over a problem thats really got you down, dismiss the problem. you cant do anything about it. -why do you let it get you down?-. being able to ask that question consistently only proves you have control over your own happiness all the time.
and with people teroru alludes to in his first post, people who do nothing but complain, stay the hell away from them. everyone has problems. you're not special. if you're looking for advice, thats a different story. but trying to say "Oh my life is so terrible" only helps you dwell on problems, and bring other people down, not fix them.
i dont think im even making sense anymore. ive been working on this fucking AP Gov assignment all day and its fried my brain. not that im complaining. honestly, too, its the only work ive done all year so ill take it.
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Right now, the only TRUE friend I have is the guy taking care of my while my leg is out of commission.
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On March 29 2006 20:31 Gene wrote:
-as for direction in life, i dont have one. thats another part of my being happy. i just go with it. i suppose that might be what you, teroru, define as stagnant, but its not exactly. i know where im going to school next year, thats about all the direction i have for the moment. and thats good enough for me. im enjoying myself-
Thats not stagnant at all. As long as your happy with yourself, and happy with where your going even if you don't know where that is you're set. I didn't graduate for fucks sake! I don't know know anything about where i'll be in 10 years, but i do know i will be happy.
i dont think im even making sense anymore.
You made perfect sense. And thanks for posting, it was refreshing.
I hope you have as excellent a day as mine has been.
- Mora
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Heading to bed soon, so didn't read anything other than the first post.
I don't think I have a "best" friend at the moment, my closest friend, ironically, is probably achieving the least of all my other friends.
In addition, I have a circle of really close friends, and larger circle of good friends.
The smaller circle contains the friends that I made during my four years of high school, who are attending the same university as me -- either in Engineering or in Math. All of them are extremely bright and ambitious people, and they will all do wonderful things when they graduate.
In the bigger circle, there is a mix between my old high school friends who do not attend the same university as my closer friends, and the people that I met in University (whether in my dorm, or in my program). They are also great people who excel in things scattered across a broad range of spectrum, however, I would not share anything too personal with them.
And then there is my girlfriend, whom I think is one of the brightest person I know, and I trust her more than I trust myself (?).
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Hmm most of my friends always fall under two groups. People who are punks who always smoke and drink and our usually fun as hell to party than I have my gamer friends. They usually share the interests as me music wise and games. They are my closer friends but i dont do much except play games with them and sometimes hang out. -_-;;
My closest friend is a friend in america while im in korea. We far apart but hes like the most unique person I know and we still keep in touch.
Most of my punk friends always tends to bitch about there problems while my other friends tends to talk about games. Punk friends are like all gonna be dropouts in my opinion -_-;;.
My other friends will succeed but they more boring to hang out with sometimes and sometimes they are embarassing to hang around with. Cause punk friends are usually trying to act mature because they think they look cooler while my other friends usually are very naive.
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dunno, all kinds of people.
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EPT
