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On December 09 2010 21:21 MamiyaOtaru wrote:
sometimes a coincidence is a coincidence. Blaming the US because Sweden decided to prosecute someone over one of their weird laws is dumb.
We don't have any weird laws nor do we enforce them "weirdly". But thanks for your generous insight.
Edit: Unless, of course, pressured by the US. Not the first time that's happened. See The Pirate Bay and copyright laws.
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On December 09 2010 21:21 MamiyaOtaru wrote:Also the US will never assassinate him. If they did, it would eventually come out in a future version of the Church Committee. It might take a second Watergate for that to happen, b ut our dirty laundry always comes out. If it isn't done by a Manning/Assange, we do it to ourselves sooner or later. Everyone knows about soldiers exposed to nuclear radiation in testing or any number of things.
No ti doesn't. we still don't know who killed JFK, thats just one example.
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United States44388 Posts
On December 09 2010 12:50 Gecko wrote:
He's technically right, he swore an oath to the USA when he joined the military and he broke it. It does not matter how "right" what he did was, he broke the law. Of course Brad will get punished, releasing classified documents to harm the US is treason. As for assange, the US does not have anything on him and the rape case is BS. I think he is gonna walk away unscathed.
What he did was an incredibly patriotic act. Sometimes a dose of truth is needed to fix a nation. That Collateral Murder video needed airing.
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On December 09 2010 22:25 HellRoxYa wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2010 21:21 MamiyaOtaru wrote:
sometimes a coincidence is a coincidence. Blaming the US because Sweden decided to prosecute someone over one of their weird laws is dumb. We don't have any weird laws nor do we enforce them "weirdly". But thanks for your generous insight. Edit: Unless, of course, pressured by the US. Not the first time that's happened. See The Pirate Bay and copyright laws.
Why is it that pretty much every European citizen puts the blame on the US for everything the EU does that is wrong.
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On December 09 2010 22:45 Bosu wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2010 22:25 HellRoxYa wrote:On December 09 2010 21:21 MamiyaOtaru wrote:
sometimes a coincidence is a coincidence. Blaming the US because Sweden decided to prosecute someone over one of their weird laws is dumb. We don't have any weird laws nor do we enforce them "weirdly". But thanks for your generous insight. Edit: Unless, of course, pressured by the US. Not the first time that's happened. See The Pirate Bay and copyright laws. Why is it that pretty much every European citizen puts the blame on the US for everything the EU does that is wrong.
Just because you refuse to look at the evidence doesn't mean we are wrong.
And i blame every government that collaborates with the US. But clearly the US started all this shit.
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On December 09 2010 22:45 Bosu wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2010 22:25 HellRoxYa wrote:On December 09 2010 21:21 MamiyaOtaru wrote:
sometimes a coincidence is a coincidence. Blaming the US because Sweden decided to prosecute someone over one of their weird laws is dumb. We don't have any weird laws nor do we enforce them "weirdly". But thanks for your generous insight. Edit: Unless, of course, pressured by the US. Not the first time that's happened. See The Pirate Bay and copyright laws. Why is it that pretty much every European citizen puts the blame on the US for everything the EU does that is wrong.
Two options:
1. because there is evidence that this claim is justified and people process such information rather rationally
2. because all Europeans are ignorants who indiscriminately hate the greatest country in the world
Take your pick.
Its rather simple. Most governments play their power in order to protect the rights of their buisenesses, the more the stronger lobbies are. The US happens to have a lot of political power as well as a lot of strong lobbies. Hence, the US is more likely than other countires to use its political influence in favor of their domestic economy. The example of pressuring Seweden into convicting piratebay is one example. The recently revealed influencing of the Russian government in roder to protect the financial interests of Visa and Mastercard are another.
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On December 09 2010 22:25 HellRoxYa wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2010 21:21 MamiyaOtaru wrote:
sometimes a coincidence is a coincidence. Blaming the US because Sweden decided to prosecute someone over one of their weird laws is dumb. We don't have any weird laws nor do we enforce them "weirdly". But thanks for your generous insight. Edit: Unless, of course, pressured by the US. Not the first time that's happened. See The Pirate Bay and copyright laws.
categorizing a broken condom as rape is mighty weird to me. and don't tell me that's not the case, as I gather it, this has been the fuzz about all the legal trouble with Assange since it all began (the possibility to lay this out as being rape, because of the broken condom, even though it was consensual sex).
I already pm'ed another Swede in here to ask him if those kind of laws are even practically enforced in Sweden anymore or if it's like one of those not-enforced US laws where you can't fart on sunday or something like that. But it seems he hasn't been online again yet.
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On December 09 2010 23:04 heishe wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2010 22:25 HellRoxYa wrote:On December 09 2010 21:21 MamiyaOtaru wrote:
sometimes a coincidence is a coincidence. Blaming the US because Sweden decided to prosecute someone over one of their weird laws is dumb. We don't have any weird laws nor do we enforce them "weirdly". But thanks for your generous insight. Edit: Unless, of course, pressured by the US. Not the first time that's happened. See The Pirate Bay and copyright laws. categorizing a broken condom as rape is mighty weird to me. and don't tell me that's not the case, as I gather it, this has been the fuzz about all the legal trouble with Assange since it all began (the possibility to lay this out as being rape, because of the broken condom, even though it was consensual sex). I already pm'ed another Swede in here to ask him if those kind of laws are even practically enforced in Sweden anymore or if it's like one of those not-enforced US laws where you can't fart on sunday or something like that. But it seems he hasn't been online again yet.
I've never heard of it before, at all.
Sweden does have some VERY rabid feminists lurking around so I'm not surprised they bring it out when the accusations are vague.
In recent years there have been attempts to do a total switcharoo on rape cases converting it into "guilty until proven otherwise".
EDIT: Oh, reading the last few posts here...
Other coutries has messed up laws too. Don't you pretend that Sweden somehow is the one with the weird law system.
http://www.dumblaws.com
It's one of the most fair in the world when dealing with matters that are within the country with no outside interest for sure.
Sweden has A BIG problem with laying down to US/EU though. Piratebay/FRA/Ipred+this, all are pretty clear that something went wrong. There IS NO legal support for the piratebay verdict, yet it happened.. twice. FRA LISTENS TO ALL TRAFFIC GOING TROUGH SWEDEN, "seaching for keywords". Just this week someone revealed that they have been leaking complete logs. May I remind you that a big part of russian internet and telephone traffic goes through us? Norway was/is outraged cause almost ALL of their traffic is now listened to by the Swedish government. Ipred is american music industry straight up. We as swedes are actually for free use of music you've bought (look at polls etc).
Then EU has started working on Acta, WITH the US government. Brilliant.
US has a BIG intrest in protecting the big record companies and keeping it a secret that very little of the money made on the music doesn't actually go back to the creators.
+ Show Spoiler +
Same thing with Wikileaks, they have a BIG interest keeping their sneaky stuff secret, cause god knows what they are hiding if we already know about so much bullshit.
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As an aside regarding the whole Bradley Manning situation, I find it absolutely hilarious that in their latest attempt to demonize Assange, media outlets are now spam-running this "Wikileaks... HASN'T HELPED OUT MANNING YET!" story.
For example:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/12/09/bradley_manning_wikileaks_no_help/
I find it just too comical that there are all these stories about how Wikileaks has yet to provide money for the defense of Manning and how Assange is therefore selfish? morally corrupt? not sure what message is being implied there other than "Assange is bad". Yet, none of these stories mention maybe the reason Wikileaks is having so much trouble providing money is because much of their assets have been frozen and donations have been stopped by the US government, nor do they mention the crime that Manning is imprisoned for in the first place is leaking a video showing US military gunning down innocent civilians and journalists.
Soldiers killing innocent civilians = not evil
Not providing money to person imprisoned for leaking a video of the killings = evil? selfish? I think that's the message there.
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ya that's the message but i'd go a little further as ppl posted before
Soldiers killing innocents civilians (i heard 80k in that video posted earlier... ) => NOT terrorism
Posting videos of said soldiers killing those innocents => TERRORISM!
who wouldn't agree with such logic.
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On December 09 2010 22:41 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2010 12:50 Gecko wrote:
He's technically right, he swore an oath to the USA when he joined the military and he broke it. It does not matter how "right" what he did was, he broke the law. Of course Brad will get punished, releasing classified documents to harm the US is treason. As for assange, the US does not have anything on him and the rape case is BS. I think he is gonna walk away unscathed. What he did was an incredibly patriotic act. Sometimes a dose of truth is needed to fix a nation. That Collateral Murder video needed airing.
I don't think it's "patriotic", and I don't think Assange is a "patriot". What he has done is courageous and rightful but I don't see any patriotism here.
"Patriotism: the last refuge of a scoundrel." I still think our old friend S Johnson was damn right.
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On December 10 2010 02:02 Krigwin wrote:As an aside regarding the whole Bradley Manning situation, I find it absolutely hilarious that in their latest attempt to demonize Assange, media outlets are now spam-running this "Wikileaks... HASN'T HELPED OUT MANNING YET!" story. For example: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/12/09/bradley_manning_wikileaks_no_help/I find it just too comical that there are all these stories about how Wikileaks has yet to provide money for the defense of Manning and how Assange is therefore selfish? morally corrupt? not sure what message is being implied there other than "Assange is bad". Yet, none of these stories mention maybe the reason Wikileaks is having so much trouble providing money is because much of their assets have been frozen and donations have been stopped by the US government, nor do they mention the crime that Manning is imprisoned for in the first place is leaking a video showing US military gunning down innocent civilians and journalists. Soldiers killing innocent civilians = not evil Not providing money to person imprisoned for leaking a video of the killings = evil? selfish? I think that's the message there.
absolutely absurd
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On December 09 2010 22:41 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2010 12:50 Gecko wrote:
He's technically right, he swore an oath to the USA when he joined the military and he broke it. It does not matter how "right" what he did was, he broke the law. Of course Brad will get punished, releasing classified documents to harm the US is treason. As for assange, the US does not have anything on him and the rape case is BS. I think he is gonna walk away unscathed. What he did was an incredibly patriotic act. Sometimes a dose of truth is needed to fix a nation. That Collateral Murder video needed airing. True, many forget the oath says both "foreign and domestic".
On December 10 2010 03:30 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2010 22:41 KwarK wrote:On December 09 2010 12:50 Gecko wrote:
He's technically right, he swore an oath to the USA when he joined the military and he broke it. It does not matter how "right" what he did was, he broke the law. Of course Brad will get punished, releasing classified documents to harm the US is treason. As for assange, the US does not have anything on him and the rape case is BS. I think he is gonna walk away unscathed. What he did was an incredibly patriotic act. Sometimes a dose of truth is needed to fix a nation. That Collateral Murder video needed airing. I don't think it's "patriotic", and I don't think Assange is a "patriot". What he has done is courageous and rightful but I don't see any patriotism here. "Patriotism: the last refuge of a scoundrel." I still think our old friend S Johnson was damn right. They're talking about the soldier who leaked the documents to wikileaks. Not about Assange.
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On December 09 2010 22:25 HellRoxYa wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2010 21:21 MamiyaOtaru wrote:
sometimes a coincidence is a coincidence. Blaming the US because Sweden decided to prosecute someone over one of their weird laws is dumb. We don't have any weird laws nor do we enforce them "weirdly". But thanks for your generous insight. Edit: Unless, of course, pressured by the US. Not the first time that's happened. See The Pirate Bay and copyright laws.
Uh, if you look at copyright laws and who's been pressuring who, its mostly been France and the EU shoving their version of copyright around as the world standard. The US's recent pushes have been to protect topographies and software, not music. Copyright as a defense of authorial rights is a distinctly French concept.
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On December 10 2010 02:02 Krigwin wrote:As an aside regarding the whole Bradley Manning situation, I find it absolutely hilarious that in their latest attempt to demonize Assange, media outlets are now spam-running this "Wikileaks... HASN'T HELPED OUT MANNING YET!" story. For example: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/12/09/bradley_manning_wikileaks_no_help/I find it just too comical that there are all these stories about how Wikileaks has yet to provide money for the defense of Manning and how Assange is therefore selfish? morally corrupt? not sure what message is being implied there other than "Assange is bad". Yet, none of these stories mention maybe the reason Wikileaks is having so much trouble providing money is because much of their assets have been frozen and donations have been stopped by the US government, nor do they mention the crime that Manning is imprisoned for in the first place is leaking a video showing US military gunning down innocent civilians and journalists. Soldiers killing innocent civilians = not evil Not providing money to person imprisoned for leaking a video of the killings = evil? selfish? I think that's the message there.
if they helped him it could be used as proof that he has indeed leaked the documents to wikileaks.
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United States44388 Posts
On December 10 2010 03:30 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2010 22:41 KwarK wrote:On December 09 2010 12:50 Gecko wrote:
He's technically right, he swore an oath to the USA when he joined the military and he broke it. It does not matter how "right" what he did was, he broke the law. Of course Brad will get punished, releasing classified documents to harm the US is treason. As for assange, the US does not have anything on him and the rape case is BS. I think he is gonna walk away unscathed. What he did was an incredibly patriotic act. Sometimes a dose of truth is needed to fix a nation. That Collateral Murder video needed airing. I don't think it's "patriotic", and I don't think Assange is a "patriot". What he has done is courageous and rightful but I don't see any patriotism here. "Patriotism: the last refuge of a scoundrel." I still think our old friend S Johnson was damn right.
I was referring to Manning, not Assange. He's pretty much thrown his life away but he may have improved his nation by doing so.
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On December 10 2010 03:45 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2010 03:30 Biff The Understudy wrote:On December 09 2010 22:41 KwarK wrote:On December 09 2010 12:50 Gecko wrote:
He's technically right, he swore an oath to the USA when he joined the military and he broke it. It does not matter how "right" what he did was, he broke the law. Of course Brad will get punished, releasing classified documents to harm the US is treason. As for assange, the US does not have anything on him and the rape case is BS. I think he is gonna walk away unscathed. What he did was an incredibly patriotic act. Sometimes a dose of truth is needed to fix a nation. That Collateral Murder video needed airing. I don't think it's "patriotic", and I don't think Assange is a "patriot". What he has done is courageous and rightful but I don't see any patriotism here. "Patriotism: the last refuge of a scoundrel." I still think our old friend S Johnson was damn right. I was referring to Manning, not Assange. He's pretty much thrown his life away but he may have improved his nation by doing so.
That might not be the case. There's still hope that he will trump these charges somehow. His life will never be normal again, but it will not be pointless - this guy could have a long career ahead of him as an activist and orator, similar to Ellsberg.
Of course, that doesn't seem likely given the government's current hardline stance of using whatever forces necessary to silence journalism.
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Why do people endlessly debate the particulars of the case on this forum, when all the information lies open for their viewing? If you are curious, spare us your egocentricities. Don't let the acquisition of power sink into your mind. This issue is bigger than that. What if history did not include Wikileaks?I would not like to live in that world. Lose the opiate, free your intellect, nolite te bastardes carborundorum.
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Just my thoughts...
Besides how awesome wikileaks is, etc etc.
The U.S. won't kill him. They can't at this point. Every single attack that has been made has bolstered his international support, every single action taken against him has further stratified public opinion, turned moderates into radicals and radicals into extremists. To kill him right now, in some kind of shady paramilitary fashion, or extradite him very extrajudicial measures would Martyr him, and would cause immeasurable damage to U.S. reputation, far more then the cables ever would have.
Its highly unlikely that the women pressing charges against assange have ties to the CIA. One of them has gone to the Gaza strip to escape media attention, the other is now saying she wants to drop charges. Its likely that Assange might have acted in some improper sexual manner, but on the grounds of sexual misconduct and harassment, not rape. These women initially intended to pursue charges to just get back at him socially for, not to set him up so he can be extradited to the U.S.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/12/09/anna-ardin-julian-assange_n_794285.html
What is likely however, is that the CIA or other foreign power is involved in the hasty prosecution process, after the charges were initially dropped.
Regardless of his innocence, there is a very likely possibility he will be extradited to Sweden, and tangled in a huge bureaucracy of red tape in a foreign country, one wherein he does not even speak its language, then possibly sent to the U.S. for a prolonged trial.
Despite that, even a worse case scenario, I doubt he will face total imprisonment+tied up in legal system for longer then a decade or so. The U.S. government does not want to Martyr him, but rather, keep him irrelevant until his movement has become irrelevent. I doubt he will receive harsh or inhumane treatment in this process, besides being isolated from the outside world (quite like China's Liu Xiabao) His biggest mistake was not to decentralize wikileaks. Ultimately, he is vital to the organizations long term success, and that is a weakness the U.S. will exploit.
But the question of his extradition itself is an uncertain possibility. And of course, there is a strong likelihood that the actual events will be a cross between the two. Perhaps he will be entangled and entrapped by bureaucracy for over a year, but face no actual charges in the end, or relatively minor ones.
Regardless of the fate of Assange, U.S. will have to live with the consequences of the Cable leaks. There is no stopping that.
Manning on the other hand is screwed (possibly literally :/). I doubt he will face maximum sentencing, I highly doubt they will pursue death for treason, but they will get him for several decades in a military prison at best...and a federal prison at worse...
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Interesting tweet by Anna Ardin
"CIA agent, rabid feminist / Muslim lover, a Christian fundamentalist, frigid & fatally in love with a man, can you be all that at the same time ..
She seems very melodramatic, much like assange xD. Who says opposites attract?
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd120/hipsterrunoff/photographs/hro/472e2338.jpg)
