So you think you're smart? Or maybe you enjoy chess? Or maybe you're smart AND enjoy chess!
Then come play Go with us. I'm sure some of you have seen it on OGN streams sometimes. It's considerd to be the worlds oldest boardgame and it is in a way similar to chess and checkers.
Come on into the IRC channel and we'll help you/play you. We have a room on KGS, but since it isn't official it's not a sure thing to be up. But try looking under new rooms and look for "Teamliquid". If you can't get on IRC you can always ask for a game here!
Player list: (Nick - Skill) SnowFalling/Julmust - Newbie keit - very much a newbie Abydos1 - advanced newbie woopy - intermediate Micronesia - intermediate Scooter - intermediate newbie 3 Lions - newbie Phrogs! - newbie
Ooh, I'd like to play. I have a friend in real life who's 6 dan on Tygem and KGS and he's given me some lessons. Put me up as an intermediate newbie. (20-18 kyu).
On March 15 2009 07:57 Scooter wrote: Ooh, I'd like to play. I have a friend in real life who's 6 dan on Tygem and KGS and he's given me some lessons. Put me up as an intermediate newbie. (20-18 kyu).
On March 15 2009 07:57 Scooter wrote: Ooh, I'd like to play. I have a friend in real life who's 6 dan on Tygem and KGS and he's given me some lessons. Put me up as an intermediate newbie. (20-18 kyu).
Our rating system is actually pretty generous just so you know... we are assuming most people interested in this thread are low on the spectrum of go players XD
edit: 3Lions anyone who really sucks should play anyone from the newbie list and it will be fine :D
I'm really tempted to play but I don't think I have the time. Be interested to see how this turns out. (My passion for this game stems from watching Hikaru no go!)
I would add this to the link. It contains many articles.
Furthermore, I play on KGS under hasuprotos (no 2nd s because of the 10 char limit ) and I am a noobie (just got done losing my first game to abydos1!) and am trying to read up :D
I would add this to the link. It contains many articles.
Furthermore, I play on KGS under hasuprotos (no 2nd s because of the 10 char limit ) and I am a noobie (just got done losing my first game to abydos1!) and am trying to read up :D
On March 15 2009 09:33 FrozenArbiter wrote: How can you not link the best Go site there is! http://senseis.xmp.net Took the liberty to add it to the list ;P
Hey FA, I know you played awhile back and I'm just wondering if you still play and what your rank is/was. I know you could own the vast majority of us but it would still be interesting to see how horridly you take advantage of all the mistakes we make
I'm getting on IRC now if maybe somebody wants to play a game vs me? I've been through interactive tutorial in the op (thanks) and been playing vs computer and obsing games on kgs all day. Haven't played vs a human yet though haha~
On March 15 2009 09:33 FrozenArbiter wrote: How can you not link the best Go site there is! http://senseis.xmp.net Took the liberty to add it to the list ;P
Hey FA, I know you played awhile back and I'm just wondering if you still play and what your rank is/was. I know you could own the vast majority of us but it would still be interesting to see how horridly you take advantage of all the mistakes we make
Nono I suck :D I started playing in like.. 2006, then GroT wanted to learn Go so when I introduced it to him, he introduced me to poker.. You can guess the rest of the story.
I've barely played since then haha :D Might try to play a bit again..
Learning to Play Go series is easy reading, elementary go series is thick. Cho Chikun's life and death is good for learning how keep and kill groups. Lessons in the Fundamentals of Go is good too.
On March 16 2009 03:57 Shikyo wrote: You definitely should recommend Hikaru No Go as well. ;D
(He does recommend it or at least I saw it somewhere )
I really didn't like this anime. Found it boring. And for learning go it's useless. It doesn't talk about the actually strategy involved, you just watch the players develop throughout the series as they become competitive.
The only thing this would be good for is vocabulary, maybe not even that. And IMO there are better ways to learn it.
On March 16 2009 03:57 Shikyo wrote: You definitely should recommend Hikaru No Go as well. ;D
(He does recommend it or at least I saw it somewhere )
I really didn't like this anime. Found it boring. And for learning go it's useless. It doesn't talk about the actually strategy involved, you just watch the players develop throughout the series as they become competitive.
The only thing this would be good for is vocabulary, maybe not even that. And IMO there are better ways to learn it.
I disagree. If you already know some go then it's pretty useless from a learning standpoint, but that's not who it is recommended for.
On March 16 2009 07:06 LucasWoJ wrote: When I try unzipping the igowin.exe file, I get the message "Can't create output file C:\Program Files\igowin\igowin.exe" What am I doing wrong?
I just had the same problem also... actually not sure. If I figure it out I'll let you know.
On March 16 2009 07:06 LucasWoJ wrote: When I try unzipping the igowin.exe file, I get the message "Can't create output file C:\Program Files\igowin\igowin.exe" What am I doing wrong?
I just had the same problem also... actually not sure. If I figure it out I'll let you know.
Sounds like it doesn't have permission to create a folder? Make sure you run it as admin maybe.
Ugh what do you do when someone invades your territory? Obviously the goal is to prevent him from getting eyes... but I am not sure specifically how to do that.
On March 16 2009 10:56 micronesia wrote: Ugh what do you do when someone invades your territory? Obviously the goal is to prevent him from getting eyes... but I am not sure specifically how to do that.
This is precisly why go is fairly complicated, your "obvious" goal is sometimes not the goal at all.
Also, get in the TL room on kgs. we need some people to play. or i can show you some typical invasions etc.
On March 16 2009 10:56 micronesia wrote: Ugh what do you do when someone invades your territory? Obviously the goal is to prevent him from getting eyes... but I am not sure specifically how to do that.
depends on how tight your Moyo is. If it's pretty small (they're suiciding, but you can still mess it up), if you match them move for move connecting and being smart about it, there's no way they can make 2 eyes and you won't lose any points putting pieces into your own territory. I'm still scrubby, but that works for me.
On March 16 2009 10:56 micronesia wrote: Ugh what do you do when someone invades your territory? Obviously the goal is to prevent him from getting eyes... but I am not sure specifically how to do that.
depends on how tight your Moyo is. If it's pretty small (they're suiciding, but you can still mess it up), if you match them move for move connecting and being smart about it, there's no way they can make 2 eyes and you won't lose any points putting pieces into your own territory. I'm still scrubby, but that works for me.
you can live in very small areas sometimes....usually in the corner.
And for anyone who would like to play or learn to play go with TLers then simply:
On March 16 2009 10:56 micronesia wrote: Ugh what do you do when someone invades your territory? Obviously the goal is to prevent him from getting eyes... but I am not sure specifically how to do that.
depends on how tight your Moyo is. If it's pretty small (they're suiciding, but you can still mess it up), if you match them move for move connecting and being smart about it, there's no way they can make 2 eyes and you won't lose any points putting pieces into your own territory. I'm still scrubby, but that works for me.
you can live in very small areas sometimes....usually in the corner.
And for anyone who would like to play or learn to play go with TLers then simply:
On March 16 2009 03:03 Klabban wrote: I'm about 5d on KGS, would be happy to play or teach anyone, maybe in exchange for some BW coaching?
Edit: My current nick is "forbidden" on KGS
holy shit ur strong as hell.
I used to be a 1d on IGS but I played maybe a couple games in the past 5 years or so. I dunno how 1d on IGS translates to KGS but my guess is that KGS rankings are tougher.
How did you get so strong? You have a professional coach or self taught? 5 dan is seriously an amazing accomplishment.
it's damn depressing playing Go some times. It's like when you get beaten, you feel the inevitability of your lost because you know from 3 mins in that your opponent is so much more ahead of you that even if you spend the next ten years learning you won't get anywhere.
if i forgot anyone forgive me T_T. just say something and i'll put you up there. We have had alot of the newbie guys getting alot of stronger recently and some of the really strong guys helping out with all of us lately, and so far the whole get help from whoever is on is working out nicely. But i would like to try to set up a time (where ost people could make it) where one of the stronger members would either review games, give a lecture, play a teaching game etc. Klabban i know said he would be interested in such a thing, and for my part i would provide whatever i could (onl 8kyu but...). So what do you all think of the idea? Also anyone who wants to join us playing go just jump on #TLgo on irc or the teamliquid room in KGS.
if i forgot anyone forgive me T_T. just say something and i'll put you up there. We have had alot of the newbie guys getting alot of stronger recently and some of the really strong guys helping out with all of us lately, and so far the whole get help from whoever is on is working out nicely. But i would like to try to set up a time (where ost people could make it) where one of the stronger members would either review games, give a lecture, play a teaching game etc. Klabban i know said he would be interested in such a thing, and for my part i would provide whatever i could (onl 8kyu but...). So what do you all think of the idea? Also anyone who wants to join us playing go just jump on #TLgo on irc or the teamliquid room in KGS.
You can add me to the list--KGS handle Chirality, I'm 2d now. (let's see if that'll last) Not on extremely often but anyone here can PM me to arrange a game.
If we're going by qualitative measurements you can put me down as "quite advanced," though the 5d players are welcome to object to that designation.
how does this game even compare to chess? I dont mean about more different patterns, etc ... it are always the same round tiles, no variation, no different ways to move for different pieces. Situations do require a very complex several steps ahead thinking, but are nonetheless very linear (there is only one possible move: place a tile). In chess different pieces have different rules, which makes the thinking proces multidimensional and more fun/challenging/difficult/outside the box/...
On April 16 2009 04:45 Gnojfatelob wrote: how does this game even compare to chess? I dont mean about more different patterns, etc ... it are always the same round tiles, no variation, no different ways to move for different pieces. Situations do require a very complex several steps ahead thinking, but are nonetheless very linear (there is only one possible move: place a tile). In chess different pieces have different rules, which makes the thinking proces multidimensional and more fun/challenging/difficult/outside the box/...
Just rambling though after my first 19x19 game.
The difficulty of a game is not bound by the superficial simplicity of it's rules. It's a pretty arbitrary distinction on your part whether you think the 361 different possible locations on the board is less varied than the 20 different possible pieces and their corresponding moves. In the end, both chess and go have a finite space of possibilities, and playing the game is merely an exercise in traversing the state space. Nothing particularly complex about it if you look at it that way.
I've played a few 13x13 games but was never really good at it so I guess I'm a newbie. 19x19 was much too complicated and long for me to even dare trying.
I'm in too... Didn't play for some time but I used to be 3d before I quit. KGS Nickname is MrChance too. I would like to do regular sessions like pondered somewhere above but I'm a bit short of time atm. Though if anyone wants to play a game when I'm on, I can certainly arrange that
On April 16 2009 04:45 Gnojfatelob wrote: how does this game even compare to chess? I dont mean about more different patterns, etc ... it are always the same round tiles, no variation, no different ways to move for different pieces. Situations do require a very complex several steps ahead thinking, but are nonetheless very linear (there is only one possible move: place a tile). In chess different pieces have different rules, which makes the thinking proces multidimensional and more fun/challenging/difficult/outside the box/...
Just rambling though after my first 19x19 game.
My fencing coach (who also plays Go) says that Chess is a game that works on lines, as in ranks and files and diagonals, whereas Go is a game that has more of a 3-dimensional spacial awareness thing going on. I think that both games are equally hard. Viz: Much too hard for me to ever be good at.
On April 16 2009 04:45 Gnojfatelob wrote: how does this game even compare to chess? I dont mean about more different patterns, etc ... it are always the same round tiles, no variation, no different ways to move for different pieces. Situations do require a very complex several steps ahead thinking, but are nonetheless very linear (there is only one possible move: place a tile). In chess different pieces have different rules, which makes the thinking proces multidimensional and more fun/challenging/difficult/outside the box/...
Just rambling though after my first 19x19 game.
Dude, Go has way more basic tactical variations than chess. I don't just mean mathematically--it's a trivial point that Go is more computationally intractable. I mean that *basic* chess tactics generally boil down to pins, forks, skewers, and discovered attacks. In Go, the list of basic tactics--usually called "tesuji"--is much longer, and it is possible to become pretty strong without even being aware of all of them.
One basic example is the two-stone edge squeeze. It achieves a capture through a two-stage sacrifice that an absolute beginner could probably not read out in an hour. The reason I call it a "basic" tesuji is that it occurs as a kind of irreducible unit in many technical situations. I once played a 9x9 game that was entirely determined by a two-stone edge squeeze that was never played. Every move had to do with activating (or deactivating) potential that would have allowed this sequence to be profitably played out.
By the way, this is not a "linear" sequence by any means. A slight change in surrounding stones can make this sequence fail for at least half a dozen different reasons (for example, your opponent might have the chance to give up a few stones and escape with the rest) or cause another tesuji to become viable. (actually, there's a certain tesuji that players around my level mess up all the time, because it *looks* like a two-stone edge squeeze)
And don't even get me started on ko.
Go also has a level of full-board strategy that is simply not possible on a (small) chessboard. I hope nobody thinks I'm badmouthing chess here--I think it's a fantastic game--but "it has different kinds of pieces" is hardly the right way to argue that it's somehow deeper than Go.
On April 16 2009 10:49 threepool wrote: Go also has a level of full-board strategy that is simply not possible on a (small) chessboard. I hope nobody thinks I'm badmouthing chess here--I think it's a fantastic game--but "it has different kinds of pieces" is hardly the right way to argue that it's somehow deeper than Go.
You aren't badmouthing chess and yet your post is simply tearing down chess in favor of go at every point lol. You simplified all of chess tactics to three broad categories and yet you can pull the same trick with go tactics, they all boil down to either making eyes or winning capture races right?
That being said i enjoy go more, but i don't think that is because chess is somehow less complex to me, a mortal man. you could spend as much time as you wanted to on either game and not reach perfect play so the complexity issue is a complete irrelevance.
So here is my short and sweet and hopefully less bias breakdown between chess and go having actually played both at at least a an intermediate amount of skill.
Chess generally relies on more tactics then go in the average game, although this will vary between games (ie closed chess positions have lots of long term large scale strategy, and likewise a whole board large avalanche fight will be very tactic heavy).
Go strategy usually involves some sort of compromise (ie tit for tat type strategies) and chess generally involves trying to impose your will on the foe.
go is an additive game, chess a subtractive one.
in go you can win without engaging enemy peices in fights really, just by surrounding enough. in chess you fight by definition.
that's it. unless you are a computer one is not "harder" then the other. one is not better beacuse it's based on more abstract qualities. Both can be said to be artistic, both are played by millions, and both are so deep that only computers really have a chance at attaining anything close to perfect play, us humans can try all we like but not get there, that's why we play the games.
All that being said i'd like to invite anyone thinking of trying out Go to head on to gokgs.com and join the teamliquid room under social, stop in and say hi and we'll definately show you what you need to know to get started. If you have only played chess you owe it to yourself to give the "other" board game a try (likewise to all the go only players lol).
Shymon, I'm seriously not tearing down chess. I was making a point about complexity--which you claim, ironically enough, is irrelevant--and you didn't really respond to it except to make this silly point about making eyes. I'll respond to that: the goal of a tactic is not the same as the tactic itself. But if you want to list goals of Go tactics/tesuji, you left out cutting, connecting, and (lol) taking territory.
You're welcome to disagree with my point about forks, pins, skewers, and discovered attacks, but I've heard quite a number of expert-level chess players make exactly my same point. So what? It doesn't mean anything is better than anything else.
On April 16 2009 12:06 Shymon wrote: That being said i enjoy go more, but i don't think that is because chess is somehow less complex to me, a mortal man. you could spend as much time as you wanted to on either game and not reach perfect play so the complexity issue is a complete irrelevance.
this is the best way to look at it imo and if i was a chess player it'd piss me off badly that us go players keep pointing out how our game is "more complex" so annoyingly often when it doesnt even matter... i seriously think it's out of jealousy cause chess has so much prestige and stuff whereas when you tell people you play go they're like "you play what now?"
anyway it's pointless and sad to keep telling these chess players that their game is somehow inferior, it's their passion ffs let them enjoy it as much as they can
but yeah threepool you are good about it at least but seriously i've heard a lot of go players talk down on chess when they really had no business doing so at all
On April 17 2009 22:00 GroT wrote: but yeah threepool you are good about it at least but seriously i've heard a lot of go players talk down on chess when they really had no business doing so at all
threepool was responding to someone that claimed that go doesn't compare to chess. I myself fall into the trap of trying to talk down chess and pump up go, but I often find that it is due to the fact that go gets so little respect in the west when compared to chess. I agree with your general point that it is kinda childish to disrespect another game, especially one that is of a quality of chess. But the fact remains that go has a depth of strategy that is arguably deeper than that of chess and yet, in the west, it gets put on the same level as othello while chess is recognized as the pinnacle of strategy games. I feel as though this is the main reason why go players often defend the game of go while playing down chess.
Glad I'm not getting flamed too much (phew!) but to make amends I'll point out another aspect of the game in which chess is more complex: full-board interactions. (recall that the post I was responding to was specifically about basic tactical variations, or at least that's how I chose to interpret it for some reason)
In Go, the only *tactical* mechanism that connects distant parts of the board is the ladder, which is common but not ubiquitous. But in chess, since there are many pieces that can move across the board, it is often necessary to take every piece on the board into account when making tactical decisions. In Go, it is often possible to make several decisions independently, and sometimes a situation in some part of the board can remain unchanged for even hundreds of moves, while in chess you don't have this luxury.
Actually, this computational "weakness" of Go was featured prominently in an article (in Wired maybe?) in which one of the key people behind Deep Blue was discussing how he thought that computers could beat humans at Go using certain types of caching algorithms that had failed for chess.
On April 18 2009 02:02 threepool wrote: Glad I'm not getting flamed too much (phew!) but to make amends I'll point out another aspect of the game in which chess is more complex: full-board interactions. (recall that the post I was responding to was specifically about basic tactical variations, or at least that's how I chose to interpret it for some reason)
In Go, the only *tactical* mechanism that connects distant parts of the board is the ladder, which is common but not ubiquitous. But in chess, since there are many pieces that can move across the board, it is often necessary to take every piece on the board into account when making tactical decisions. In Go, it is often possible to make several decisions independently, and sometimes a situation in some part of the board can remain unchanged for even hundreds of moves, while in chess you don't have this luxury.
Actually, this computational "weakness" of Go was featured prominently in an article (in Wired maybe?) in which one of the key people behind Deep Blue was discussing how he thought that computers could beat humans at Go using certain types of caching algorithms that had failed for chess.
r u srs
i don't know wether i should try to refute ur claim or try to convince u that it doesn't matter which game is more complex
anyway you seem to know that positions in go have a huge impact on other positions far away even if there are no ladders involved, because you included the word "tactical" in ur line as if everything else somehow "doesnt count".. what's even the point of making arguments like that?
go players do the same thing btw.. they mention completely irrelevant crap like "our board is bigger than yours" or "there's more different possible board positions"...
On April 17 2009 22:00 GroT wrote: but yeah threepool you are good about it at least but seriously i've heard a lot of go players talk down on chess when they really had no business doing so at all
threepool was responding to someone that claimed that go doesn't compare to chess. I myself fall into the trap of trying to talk down chess and pump up go, but I often find that it is due to the fact that go gets so little respect in the west when compared to chess. I agree with your general point that it is kinda childish to disrespect another game, especially one that is of a quality of chess. But the fact remains that go has a depth of strategy that is arguably deeper than that of chess and yet, in the west, it gets put on the same level as othello while chess is recognized as the pinnacle of strategy games. I feel as though this is the main reason why go players often defend the game of go while playing down chess.
i don't think so i think most chess players realise almost instantly just how impossible it must be to master go.. after all their own game is exactly the same in that respect
i think its mostly random people who dont play either and haven't ever heard of go that give chess tremendous credit while saying "go where?", which is what causes frustration but this isn't at all the fault of the chess players, they are just getting the credit they deserve.. instead of bashing on them maybe go players could focus that energy on enlightening other people that go is pretty damn sick also and that there are amazing grandmasters just like in chess
I compare a lot of this stuff to situations in poker by the way
- no limit (go) players telling limit (chess) players their game is less "deep" while neither can master either
- general public giving the top tournament players (chess players) who are on tv insane credit and the top cash game players (go players) often feel slighted because of this.. you can really find a lot of frustration in top online players when they have to hear about "the greatest players in the world" over and over again on tv
On April 17 2009 22:00 GroT wrote: but yeah threepool you are good about it at least but seriously i've heard a lot of go players talk down on chess when they really had no business doing so at all
threepool was responding to someone that claimed that go doesn't compare to chess. I myself fall into the trap of trying to talk down chess and pump up go, but I often find that it is due to the fact that go gets so little respect in the west when compared to chess. I agree with your general point that it is kinda childish to disrespect another game, especially one that is of a quality of chess. But the fact remains that go has a depth of strategy that is arguably deeper than that of chess and yet, in the west, it gets put on the same level as othello while chess is recognized as the pinnacle of strategy games. I feel as though this is the main reason why go players often defend the game of go while playing down chess.
i don't think so i think most chess players realise almost instantly just how impossible it must be to master go.. after all their own game is exactly the same in that respect
i think its mostly random people who dont play either and haven't ever heard of go that give chess tremendous credit while saying "go where?", which is what causes frustration but this isn't at all the fault of the chess players, they are just getting the credit they deserve.. instead of bashing on them maybe go players could focus that energy on enlightening other people that go is pretty damn sick also and that there are amazing grandmasters just like in chess
I compare a lot of this stuff to situations in poker by the way
- no limit (go) players telling limit (chess) players their game is less "deep" while neither can master either
- general public giving the top tournament players (chess players) who are on tv insane credit and the top cash game players (go players) often feel slighted because of this.. you can really find a lot of frustration in top online players when they have to hear about "the greatest players in the world" over and over again on tv
your comparisons to poker are spot on. and yeah, I was referring more to the general public than hardcore chess players when I said that go doesnt get much respect.
On April 18 2009 12:48 GroT wrote:i don't know wether i should try to refute ur claim or try to convince u that it doesn't matter which game is more complex
If you'd been paying attention to the discussion, you'd know that I agree--it doesn't matter. I tried to demonstrate this by arguing for both sides in succession, but that seems to have gone over your head.
On April 18 2009 12:48 GroT wrote:anyway you seem to know that positions in go have a huge impact on other positions far away even if there are no ladders involved, because you included the word "tactical" in ur line as if everything else somehow "doesnt count".. what's even the point of making arguments like that?
No, it's not that strategy doesn't count, it's that the discussion was originally about tactics, and the claim that the rules of Go force sequences to be very linear. (which I disagreed with) In Go it is possible to read out one part of the board, then come back to it a hundred moves later and find it unchanged. This situation is obviously impossible in chess. This has many implications both on the way people approach the two games, and on the kinds of algorithms programmers use in making game engines.
These are not arbitrary terms--strategy and tactics are really quite different. One common criticism of invasion-style moves in Go, for example, is that they are "too early". What this means is that the tactical situation (locally) may have been played out correctly, but that the sequence itself was not optimal given the strategic (global) situation. As the global situation changes, the same sequence of moves may become closer to optimal, but the sequence itself may remain unchanged for quite some time.
Ladders and ko are *completely* different--you have tactical lines on different parts of the board directly interfering with each other. Of course you see this at every move in chess, as long as even a single rook, bishop, or queen is in play.
By the way, it's pretty silly to end an angry post with "who cares?" Clearly you do, or you'd just ignore what I'm writing.
I recently started learning how to play Go so I got excited when I noticed this thread. However, you guys have spent the entire last page bashing Chess as a response to one guy's (uneducated) opinion. Since I learned how to play chess first, I'm apprehensive about playing with you guys.
Basically I'm just trying to get this to a new page so other people don't get turned off by the Go group for the same reason. I'll still consider it.
On April 19 2009 14:15 Durak wrote: However, you guys have spent the entire last page bashing Chess
Come again?
On April 16 2009 10:49 threepool wrote: I hope nobody thinks I'm badmouthing chess here--I think it's a fantastic game
On April 16 2009 12:06 Shymon wrote: That being said i enjoy go more, but i don't think that is because chess is somehow less complex to me, a mortal man. you could spend as much time as you wanted to on either game and not reach perfect play so the complexity issue is a complete irrelevance.
On April 17 2009 22:00 GroT wrote: ..the chess players, they are just getting the credit they deserve.
On April 17 2009 23:24 tenbagger wrote: ...especially one that is of a quality of chess.
that's all from the last page and everyone who had anything to say about chess is included
Taking small chunks of posts doesn't do justice to the mood behind them. I said that it is "thinly veiled." If you read through the posts objectivally you'll notice it. For comparison to your quotes, I'll do the same thing with the same posts.
On April 17 2009 21:58 GroT wrote: anyway it's pointless and sad to keep telling these chess players that their game is somehow inferior, it's their passion ffs let them enjoy it as much as they can
On April 16 2009 10:49 threepool wrote: Dude, Go has way more basic tactical variations than chess. I don't just mean mathematically--it's a trivial point that Go is more computationally intractable. I mean that *basic* chess tactics generally boil down to pins, forks, skewers, and discovered attacks.
On April 16 2009 10:49 threepool wrote: Go also has a level of full-board strategy that is simply not possible on a (small) chessboard.
"somehow inferior".. this implies that chess being inferior to go is completely unthinkable (just like everything else i've said in this thread (did you read it or skim through it?)
your other 2 posts are both from threepool and he has clarified his position multiple times, saying that he's just pointing out differences in nature between the 2 games, nothing to do with either being superior..
Hi guys!!! I'm always a fan of Go!!! Although I would prefer chess over Go anyday! ^_^
But yea, I'm definitely interested in this board game, I remember like 4-5 years back, I finished the entire series of Hikaru no Go PLUS all manga chapters (just b/c I sort of enjoyed the plot and had an interest of Go) though I haven't really play Go as much but rather as a viewer type.... I did play Go several times at yahoo.com (the only place I thought Go existed for me to play) and I did win games here and there then lost here and there but hopefully know the basics... (I mean I did watched freaking 90? eps of Hikaru no Go) so........ yea, put me down as newbie for now..
On April 20 2009 15:25 QuickStriker wrote: Hi guys!!! I'm always a fan of Go!!! Although I would prefer chess over Go anyday! ^_^
But yea, I'm definitely interested in this board game, I remember like 4-5 years back, I finished the entire series of Hikaru no Go PLUS all manga chapters (just b/c I sort of enjoyed the plot and had an interest of Go) though I haven't really play Go as much but rather as a viewer type.... I did play Go several times at yahoo.com (the only place I thought Go existed for me to play) and I did win games here and there then lost here and there but hopefully know the basics... (I mean I did watched freaking 90? eps of Hikaru no Go) so........ yea, put me down as newbie for now..
There's "only" 75 episodes of HnG. And they are all awesome. One of my favorite things about Go tournaments is that sometimes you can get people to make that "ngh!" sound that everybody in that series makes in response to a really good move.
On April 20 2009 15:25 QuickStriker wrote: Hi guys!!! I'm always a fan of Go!!! Although I would prefer chess over Go anyday! ^_^
But yea, I'm definitely interested in this board game, I remember like 4-5 years back, I finished the entire series of Hikaru no Go PLUS all manga chapters (just b/c I sort of enjoyed the plot and had an interest of Go) though I haven't really play Go as much but rather as a viewer type.... I did play Go several times at yahoo.com (the only place I thought Go existed for me to play) and I did win games here and there then lost here and there but hopefully know the basics... (I mean I did watched freaking 90? eps of Hikaru no Go) so........ yea, put me down as newbie for now..
There's "only" 75 episodes of HnG. And they are all awesome. One of my favorite things about Go tournaments is that sometimes you can get people to make that "ngh!" sound that everybody in that series makes in response to a really good move.
Hahaha, I couldn't agree more, I definitely loved that years back when I saw that.... and you're right, 75.... well it was more like 90 to me since I went on and read the entire manga (in which even continues where it left off on anime meaning the storyline goes further before ending)
@GroT: I have just briefly took a peek at KGS and am willing to play when I have free time though... we'll see when I'll actually hold my breath and log in to play...
Just a quick question, a TL Go Group is really nice and all but I was wondering if you guys are planning for some sort of event or competition/tourny in the future??? Although playing Go online is fun, I always prefer those actual board and face to face with my opponents in a quiet room where tensions appear between 2 people....
SF Bay Area..... SF = South Florida correct??? Blah, I'm located all the way up in NYC so this won't do.....
Anyway, I dled this program where it has a practice game with a comps where it goes down the level as you get better but for some reason I just can't seem to beat pass 16k (I did just by luck only to lose and go back to 18kish)..... So does this mean my level should be around there??? Dammit, I would think I was better...
Interesting, I suppose South Florida does have a bay...
Anyhow, I meant San Francisco.
Are you talking about Igowin, QuickStriker? I'd be wary about deciding my rank based on any computer program, but Igowin in particular is usually way off.
You should spend some time on KGS to get an accurate rating. But just so you're not too demoralized: if you really feel you're a "newbie," you definitely should not expect a rank stronger than about 20k.
Quite an old thread to bump, but it's the holidays and it's snowing outside. Other than actually riding the snow, I don't know of anything better to do than drink some deliciously spiked eggnog and playing go. Anyone still active with the game?
The TL group on KGS, http://www.gokgs.com, is still going strong. We have a room for all of us under Social -> Teamliquid. If you are new to the game just ask in the room and we'll answer any questions you have, and if your not new where else can you talk about the latest honibo title and the OSl at the same time?
Umm.. Îs this still active? I would love to play Go with a fellow starcraft player.. I am about 3k on orobaduk witch translates to about 1k - 1d on KGS.. i am willing to give tips to those interested if they help me with my sc2 (top 5 of my platinum league but still pretty bad)
On December 24 2009 15:42 Shymon wrote: The TL group on KGS, http://www.gokgs.com, is still going strong. We have a room for all of us under Social -> Teamliquid. If you are new to the game just ask in the room and we'll answer any questions you have, and if your not new where else can you talk about the latest honibo title and the OSl at the same time?
my last reply still applies pretty much, not as active as it was during it's frst few months but we are still in the teamliquid room.
I've recently started playing Go, and I gotta say, it's a hell lot of fun. I'm just so bad at it though >.< The level of skill must be insane seeing how my ass would get so beat from like 18 or 20 w/e kyu bots. I'm probably like the lowest rank which is 32 kyu I think?
Any TLers still play Go actively? it'd be great if I could spectate or something, or maybe you guys could stream like how some people stream chess.
Long time lurker here, and made an account recently. Thought I'd add a few things here. To those interested, there is a teamliquid room on KGS as well. "teamliquid" under the "Social" category from the "Rooms" option. I do not believe it's been mentioned yet.
There used to be a baduk.tv stream that was regularly running for free. I believe now, it is pay-per-view to the person who is restreaming it. Pretty weird, but it's out there. I doubt it's worth it, something like 10$ for only one week pass. Wait, let me rephrase, it's definitely not worth it. The owner was restreaming it through ustream last I remember. I do not know about what it is using now.
I love Go, unfortunately had not been playing them for quite a while as they require decent time investment. And then there is the fact that getting official ranking on the KGS server is too hard, at least for me.
I'm sure I posted about Go on another (or this?) thread somewhere, but I am also player who just escaped newbie status.
On February 27 2011 15:01 Hesmyrr wrote: I love Go, unfortunately had not been playing them for quite a while as they require decent time investment. And then there is the fact that getting official ranking on the KGS server is too hard, at least for me.
I'm sure I posted about Go on another (or this?) thread somewhere, but I am also player who just escaped newbie status.
Hm, from what I recall, there are ranked bots you can play to gain a "rank". The most it takes is 2 wins and 2 losses. Actually, it only takes one win and one loss to get you a rank. The system needs at least one loss to give you a rank that does not have that question next to it. This is my recollection so I could be wrong. In any case, the more you play ranked games, the easier it is for the system to find that rank it thinks you fit in.
On February 27 2011 21:25 SnowFantasy wrote:
I like Go too but I haven't played in forever. I wasn't what I could consider good though either.
I think this type of statement applies to many games. SC/SC2 being one of them as well. It's all relative. To me, I still consider myself weak. I am around 3k on KGS. So, a lot of people wouldn't consider that so weak. I think most players who play casually aim for around for 1d-2d level on KGS. I may not be that far from it, but I think once I am 1d, I would not be too happy there either. Again, it's just one of these types of games where you WANT to get better and stronger. It's just tough to do.
On a side note, let me also recommend the "KGS Teaching Ladder" under the "Lessons" category. If you are serious about improving, it's a great room. Many people are very nice there, and do give occasional teaching games to lower ranked players. The only thing asked is that you pass it down. Remember when you are stronger, to help out those that are weaker.
Does anyone know of good YouTube commentaries/tutorials on learning the game? It actually took a while to find this guy, but he provides some decent commentary on his play and it helps a newbie like myself to figure out what situations are considered good/bad at least.
This KGS Go client is actually insanely awesome...better than Bnet 2.0?
In teaching games you can: -Instantly watch the rep after the game ends -Pause midgame, and play alternative moves -Mark the board to illustrate potential shapes -All your games are saved to match history
I'm sure there are more features I'm missing, but all these capabilities + helpful TL members, it really has made learning pretty awesome!
This game has a ton of similarities to starcraft a well, I hope more people pick it up~
I can't get on the IRC right now but I'll try in a bit. In the meantime, if anyone is up for a game, let me know I was only an 11-12 kyu player and it's been a long time, but I'd like to start playing again.
If you've read Jinro's retirement post you will have noticed that he also spent some time playing Go, so I thought reminding everyone of this amazing game is a good idea.
The information in the OP is still ok. We are currently about 10-15 people who you can meet regularly in the teamliquid channel on KGS. We have a lot of nice guys who like to show newcomers the basics and review games for you.
Go is a lot like SC with a very steep learning curve that just seems to get steeper and steeper, perfect for everyone who loves to compete in games!^^ The game can teach you a lot about yourself; you can respond to moves very emotionally (and lose like me) or be rational, you can be crazy, you can hate your opponents' guts or you can play a very peaceful game. It really is up to you and how you want to play.
I went from never playing before to 6kyu in one summer, and havent really played much since then. Here are my tips to beginners:
1. First is first, go lose a hundred games. Frustrating yes, effective, definately. Don't worry about the fact you aren't following joseki. It doesn't matter. You just need to be able to see the most basic patterns without having to spend a minute looking at the board. I recommend fast games on kgs. Enough time to read a little, but too much time spent reading out moves is bad at the beginning.
2. Now that you understand the basics of the game, I highly recommend watching some shygost lectures. here, and on youtube. He will give you insight in to a way to evaluate moves strategically in the beginning. Also, by watching these videos, he will show you the joseki patterns inadvertently. Don't focus on joseki, but pick up the sequences as you learn why they are the best moves.
3. Once you hit maybe 10-12 kyu, you will find your reading ability lacking. Now you really need to supplement tesuji and life and death problems. This is the true way to improve at go. Unfortunately, if you are like me, you will find they sap the fun away from the game. So just try to do at least 30 minutes worth a day. Don't spend more than a couple minutes on a problem. Looking at the answer is good for tesuji, but I wouldn't bother looking at life and death problem solutions. I like to look at them on certain problems, but I can't say looking really helps your reading ability, which is the point of the practice. Intuition is secondary, and is better learned once you figure the answer out on your own.
4. What problems to do? Everyone says something different. I like the Lee-changho series and some chinese tsumego books like weiqi academy and 1000 tsumego. I used to use gochild website while at school but it has changed a lot since then. I would stay away from goproblems.com.
5. Finally, on the topic of reviewing/memorizing pro games. It is definately not as beneficial as playing or problems, but I found it fun and a nice break. Memorizing games does seem to help with the flow of the game, but if you really want to review pro games, I would focus on looking at each move as a problem. Look at what area you think is important, and try to figure out why they keep ignoring moves you think are critical. I got 5-10 kyu of improvement over the summer from just improving my ability to ignore my opponents moves. This is such a valuable thing to learn.
Any questions? Send me a pm. Maybe I will get back in to go this semester. The dream of hitting 1dan is still there...
Bump! Chess is awesome but GO is even better (imo). Magnus Carlsen has ironically inspired me to pick up "GO" again. I did not know there was a Tl GO group, although it might be dead....
Anyhow, add me to the list. I use "Joakim" on kgs GO server and I am about 10-12 k rank.
Google's DeepMind defeats legendary Go player Lee Se-dol in historic victory
A huge milestone has just been reached in the field of artificial intelligence: AlphaGo, a program developed by Google's DeepMind unit, has defeated legendary Go player Lee Se-dol in the first of five historic matches being held in Seoul, South Korea. Lee resigned after about three and a half hours, with 28 minutes and 28 seconds remaining on his clock. The series is the first time a professional 9-dan Go player has taken on a computer, and Lee is competing for a $1 million prize.
"I was very surprised," said Lee after the match. "I didn't expect to lose. [But] I didn't think AlphaGo would play the game in such a perfect manner." DeepMind founder Demis Hassabis expressed "huge respect for Lee Se-dol and his amazing skills," calling the game "hugely exciting" and "very tense." Team lead David Silver said it was an "amazing game of Go that really pushed AlphaGo to its limits."
Go is an ancient Chinese board game that has long been considered one of the great challenges faced by AI. While computer programs now best the world's leading human players of games like checkers and chess, the high level of intuition and evaluation required by Go has made it tough for computers to crack. DeepMind's AlphaGo program is the most advanced effort yet, using a complex system of deep neural networks and machine learning; it beat European champion Fan Hui last year, but Lee Se-dol is another proposition entirely.
"I don’t regret accepting this challenge," said Lee. "I am in shock, I admit that, but what's done is done. I enjoyed this game and look forward to the next. I think I failed on the opening layout so if I do a better job on the opening aspect I think I will be able to increase my probability of winning." Lee was surprised both by how strong AlphaGo's opening was, and by some unexpected moves.
Lee will face off against AlphaGo again tomorrow and on Saturday, Sunday, and Tuesday (11pm ET the previous evening in the US.) Whatever happens in the rest of the series, AlphaGo's victory today is a colossal moment for AI — but Lee is going to be looking for revenge. "It was a very close and tense game today," says Hassabis. "When we came into this match we thought anything was possible and we still think that now — there’s still four games to go."
EPT![[image loading]](http://data.fuskbugg.se/skalman01/tl-go-group.png)
) and I am a noobie (just got done losing my first game to abydos1!) and am trying to read up :D
!![[image loading]](http://img24.imageshack.us/my.php?image=nucleartesujifixed.jpg)
