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Korea (South)1740 Posts
Some of you may have seen my post re: best foreign BW player here, and have been speculating what was my motivation. Let me explain both the post as well as my thoughts on the topic of foreigners in progaming, (as I occasionally am driven to do, not least because lots of people have no clue whatsoever on the realities of the topic)
Let me first correct some serious misconceptions:
1) Random players cannot succeed on the progaming level, period. Because race picking is not allowed, random players simply cannot achieve the same level of play as single race gamers who focus on 3 matchups. Especially with new maps being introduced every league, there simply isn't enough time to train 9 different matchups on 5 different maps. No one, and I mean NO ONE is THAT talented.
Case in point: almost all progamers know how to play all races and matchups. Their off-races are far better than 99% of all dedicated race players in the foreign or amateur circuit. It's a fact. For example, savior's terran is godly, I've seen it many times, I've seen him owning progamer level zergs with his terran. But if he were to trot that terran out in a real match, it would be 1) an insult to the player he is playing, 2) he'd likely be not as strong as with his zerg unless the map was incredibly imbalanced, 3) he'd get a public shitstorm, win or lose. This is not to say that it's impossible. Some have even suggested that introducing random would make games more interesting. I just don't see it happening anytime soon. And definitely not a foreigner, with all appropriate apologies to Testie.
2) The amount of "dedication" required is more than you think. It's not solely going to a foreign country, or just the practice time, but the willingness to get trampled on by your coaches, your teammates, fans, reporters, front office managers, EVERYONE, and deny yourself every earthly pleasure for the sake of the game. It's not surprising why Rekrul and other foreigners have left the scene without ever really becoming a part of it, and why so many are taking up poker. One coach jokingly told me that if he were to accept a foreign progamer, he'd lock him in a room for a month, deprive him of food, and beat him regularly until he could get it through his head that he was here to game. Literally, blood, sweat, and tears. Of course the coach is joking, but heed the lesson: unless someone is that insanely committed to the game, you just can't win in this intensely competitive, and increasingly high-stakes scene. And not too many 20 year olds are mature enough and have the dedication to put in this kind of work. Honestly, they're too busy (and rightly so) chasing tail, buying shit, having fun, etc.
3) Talent vs mechanics vs strategy talk is bullshit. At the level that progaming is in now, it's simply not a matter of having one or the other (as if any of it could be quantified in the first place). The scene has evolved so much in the last few years that cute micro and one-shot builds can only take you so far. Boxer is the obvious exception but then again... he's Boxer. People all the time talk about how poor his macro or tvp is, but if he makes up his mind to play a macro game, you match up Boxer's worst tvp day with any foreign toss and all of a sudden you'll think he's iloveoov. And even so, there have been cries about how over the hill Boxer is for the last two years.
In short, I see little or no worth in saying "this guy has poor apm but great strategy and sense so he can grow." Really, the only thing is mass gaming, mass practice, and see what comes out. Example: Gorush was terrible for many years. The guy mass gamed for *3 YEARS* until he finally developed a style of play that worked. BTW, Boxer was widely known for his mass gaming, no big surprise there.
4) What determines the proof of the pudding is results over a long term against stiff competition. This is why starleaguers are considered on a level far above amateurs-- they've had to 1) become pro, nowadays through a very competitive courage league system, 2) find a team to take them on, which is no small task, 3) go through an incredibly rough online qualifying tournament, 4) make it through an additional qualifying tourney, made up of winners. The shit is not easy. In a way, SC is alot like poker: you might win a hand or two in your local neighborhood game, but ending up at the WSOP final table year after year really does say something about your skill. This is why examples of wins in the WCG over korean pros does not say nearly enough (although surely it does say something, don't get me wrong) about how suitable one is for korean progaming. Pros lose all the time to practice partners and amateurs. But you match them up over a long term, and you'll see some serious imbalance.
On the bright side:
Of course proteams are interested in talented foreigners. I don't think it's a shock that aficionado, for example, was visiting this site-- it was probably motivated in part in seeing if there was a future Grrr or even an Elky level foreigner. I'm sure, however, that he was not holding his breath.
Ever since Grrr did his bum rush in the progaming scene, there will always be at least a little bit of interest in some spectacularly talented foreigner, some diamond in the rough, and for obvious reasons. A foreigner who competes at the highest levels is awesome marketing for a team, especially now that they are all corporate backed. Think about it-- team SKT or KTF with an even mid-profile foreigner-- that does alot for an international brand image, not to mention the fannism he would create. Plus, it's a novelty for the domestic market-- it's fun to see a non-korean on screen competing with korean gamers.
So my first post on "best foreigner" was to ask the community if there was someone out there, not necessarily simply "known" players but some "diamond in the rough" who might might be suitable to a future in progaming. There is interest, there is demand. Let me repeat that: there IS interest.
Is there a supply? Even 1? My initial answer was no, and my mind is not changed appreciably, although my heart hopes otherwise.
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ty uhjoo... maybe that will stop a few people from posting trash. Notice the word few.
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United States32532 Posts
On February 20 2007 22:55 uhjoo wrote: Is there a supply? Even 1? My initial answer was no, and my mind is not changed appreciably, although my heart hopes otherwise.
On the bright side, you must be used to that state of mind by now :D
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United States20661 Posts
XellOs, how's your Protoss and Zerg?
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Sweden1225 Posts
Well everyone who I think could've made it, who had the skill for it, didn't have the mind for it (were young/didn't WANT to go that badly)
Our community or whatever let the chance go long ago
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so basically you have absolutely no interest in testie.
Still, though, this is in some ways exciting. Someone just needs to step up to the plate.
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When you ask the community who are the best foreign players, the same four or five players will always pop up. It is much more important to ask those players themselves whether they have to the desire to go or not rather than asking us who we think would do the best, because as you've said, everything revolves around mass gaming. There's no possible way for anyone to know who will be the better player after a year in korea out of testie sen mondragon midian super.
The starcraft community and progaming infrastructure in Korea have advanced so much since when Grrr and Elky played. It is unrealistic to hope for another foreign messiah figure because a foreign starcraft player simply can not play as many games as a korean. When Pj and Lx left for Korea they were two of the very best foreigners. They went to Korea and for the most part failed. Right now there is no single player that is heads and shoulders above the next best foreigner. So there's no reason to assume Testie or Mondragon or Sen or Midian or Super would do better or worse than Pj and Lx. More importantly, there's not enough incentive to going to Korea. The pay is shit, it's not a fun job if you don't love starcraft to death. Not many people outside of Korea would want to give up higher level education to play a video game to prove a point. The phrase "diamond in the rough" sounds very attractive but because the Korean e-sports culture is so much different, or advanced depending how you look at it than that of other countries and mainly the western world. This isn't at all an enticing or lucrative opportunity for many people.
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don't you think pros are getting to the point where they have practiced so much that there is not much more to practice...they start to use gambling builds... in that case any advantage would be one to use... and that advantage could be randoming. Has anyone ever tried it at pro level?
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In Draco's interview he mentions that many Koreans think they have a special gift for starcraft. I find that ignorant and depressing as a foreigner.
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I'm of the opposite opinion. A random player who is Canadian and has low apm is just what Korea needs. An anomoly among the scene of high apm one race users, breaking the laws of BW and setting mouthes agape in horror.
What? I have no bias. But it seems i've been denied. Thanks for the support in the other thread though gents. I thought I came with marketability and kung-fu action grip. The hair, I speak impeccable english, a genuine smile, and I was TL.Net's pick.
I cannot help but feel like a common chang nyo as I write this.
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America will reign supreme once more.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
uhjoo, I think you seriously underestimate the degree to which natural talent matters. Mass gaming perfects you, takes you to the top of your potential - but I could mass game with the very best in the world for the next five years and I don't think I could take on Savior or NaDa or Boxer. Sometimes the muscle memory, the 'feel' for it just happens to be luckily encoded in your genes.
I'm not denying that an incredible work ethic is extremely important - I'm just saying that in searching for foreigners, for diamonds in the rough, you have to find those people that display occasional flashes of pure brilliance, for it is those people that can shine all the time after massgaming. Picking someone that has pretty much already gotten as far as he can reasonably go is not going to lead anywhere.
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On February 20 2007 23:52 MYM.Testie wrote: I'm of the opposite opinion. A random player who is Canadian and has low apm is just what Korea needs. An anomoly among the scene of high apm one race users, breaking the laws of BW and setting mouthes agape in horror.
What? I have no bias. But it seems i've been denied. Thanks for the support in the other thread though gents. I thought I came with marketability and kung-fu action grip. The hair, I speak impeccable english, a genuine smile, and I was TL.Net's pick.
I cannot help but feel like a common chang nyo as I write this.
I think its not like he doesn't see you got a huge amount of talent, but, its like he said:
You would have to train all match ups so you can't focus so well on the 3 single match ups... I think you could make it with your protoss much better than draco does.
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United States32532 Posts
On February 20 2007 23:52 MYM.Testie wrote: I'm of the opposite opinion. A random player who is Canadian and has low apm is just what Korea needs. An anomoly among the scene of high apm one race users, breaking the laws of BW and setting mouthes agape in horror.
What? I have no bias. But it seems i've been denied. Thanks for the support in the other thread though gents. I thought I came with marketability and kung-fu action grip. The hair, I speak impeccable english, a genuine smile, and I was TL.Net's pick.
I cannot help but feel like a common chang nyo as I write this.
obligatory maphack comment
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United States37500 Posts
On February 21 2007 00:13 Waxangel wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2007 23:52 MYM.Testie wrote: I'm of the opposite opinion. A random player who is Canadian and has low apm is just what Korea needs. An anomoly among the scene of high apm one race users, breaking the laws of BW and setting mouthes agape in horror.
What? I have no bias. But it seems i've been denied. Thanks for the support in the other thread though gents. I thought I came with marketability and kung-fu action grip. The hair, I speak impeccable english, a genuine smile, and I was TL.Net's pick.
I cannot help but feel like a common chang nyo as I write this. obligatory maphack comment
iloveoov says hello.
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Korea (South)1740 Posts
On February 21 2007 00:02 GrandInquisitor wrote: uhjoo, I think you seriously underestimate the degree to which natural talent matters. Mass gaming perfects you, takes you to the top of your potential - but I could mass game with the very best in the world for the next five years and I don't think I could take on Savior or NaDa or Boxer. Sometimes the muscle memory, the 'feel' for it just happens to be luckily encoded in your genes.
I'm not denying that an incredible work ethic is extremely important - I'm just saying that in searching for foreigners, for diamonds in the rough, you have to find those people that display occasional flashes of pure brilliance, for it is those people that can shine all the time after massgaming. Picking someone that has pretty much already gotten as far as he can reasonably go is not going to lead anywhere.
i think you misread my post. i never said talent does not matter. of course there is an intangible "something", whether it be a combination of biological traits, intelligence, fast thinking, intuition, whatever it may be. garimto called it a "sense of star" and it's turned into something of a joke but i do think he's onto something. unfortunately, "talent" is completely unquantifiable.
what i did suggest, however, is that this intangible "talent" is not nearly even close to enough nowadays. "flashes of brilliance" is not enough. just as a hypoethical, grrr is a case in point of someone who is truly talented but didn't practice much. he was able to dominate 5-6 years ago, more or less on talent (which is amazing, actually) but nowadays, no one can truly compete on the progamer level with that approach.
i agree with you that the perfect candidate for a foreign progamer is someone who is very raw, but brilliant. i think someone who has achieved many things in the foreigner circles has a tendency to feel that "if i put in alot of work i can be great." i agree. but saying and doing are two separate things, and the "if" and "can" are really the hallmarks of someone who can do well in korean progaming.
what i am truly emphasizing in my post is that this person must be dedicated (insane?) enough to want to dedicate at least a few years of his young life or more to progaming.
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FConnectionUK
United States316 Posts
On February 21 2007 00:02 GrandInquisitor wrote: uhjoo, I think you seriously underestimate the degree to which natural talent matters. Mass gaming perfects you, takes you to the top of your potential - but I could mass game with the very best in the world for the next five years and I don't think I could take on Savior or NaDa or Boxer. Sometimes the muscle memory, the 'feel' for it just happens to be luckily encoded in your genes.
I'm not denying that an incredible work ethic is extremely important - I'm just saying that in searching for foreigners, for diamonds in the rough, you have to find those people that display occasional flashes of pure brilliance, for it is those people that can shine all the time after massgaming. Picking someone that has pretty much already gotten as far as he can reasonably go is not going to lead anywhere.
uhjoo agrees with you. He knows that the natural talent is one of the major trait required for a progamer. However, the thing is, even the amateurs in Korea has that much or more natural talent than the foreigners best natural talent. You can prove me wrong, but if there were any foreigners with this extreme amount of talent... wouldn't he be already having success in Korea? So unless you have spectacular amount of natural talent (like boxer), it just won't cut it. At the lvl progaming is now, natural talent is just one of the most basic requirement that is needed. And that's why uhjoo wants to stress on the fact that you have to have 100% FULL dedication and readiness PLUS every single thing you also mentioned to the perfection.
Conclusion: Nope! How about you recruit a blonde? Im sure that will help out in the marketing. lol... Im just joking. But seriously, I do not see anyone fitting. I was gonna say testie (he has talent and dedication), but I have you to agree with the random factors you have mentioned.
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FConnectionUK
United States316 Posts
o damn, uhjoo already responded...
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And by dedicate you mean play BW and nothing else?
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