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ch33psh33p
7650 Posts
On April 19 2011 01:24 Dispersion wrote: Why are hydra drops and ling-roach all in to counter a 5gate fake expo cheesy? I'd call them cutesy before I call them cheesy. Using cheese to counter cheese is still cheese... Its not bad, but its still cheese. | ||
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WeeKeong
United States282 Posts
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Dispersion
Korea (South)504 Posts
On April 19 2011 01:39 ch33psh33p wrote: Using cheese to counter cheese is still cheese... Its not bad, but its still cheese. I'm trying to determine your definition of cheese. The hydra drops were beautifully done. Two-pronged hydra drops and Socke didn't have the APM to defend them both and therefore one of the drops literally tore the mineral line apart. That's not cheese, that's genius. The ling/roach all-in was necessary to defend that 5gate. Like InControl and Gretorp were saying, the only way IdrA could have defended the first one was to preemptively make spines, which everyone knows IdrA wouldn't do because of the economical sacrifice it would have. But then all Socke had to do was FF the ramp and it was gg. And regardless of if it was an all-in or not, it was STILL a close fight. That's right, the direct counter to the fake expo barely held it off. However, + Show Spoiler + It's still possible for mass stalker to shred a Zerg with 10+ spines at a base, so riddle me that. See Mondragon vs CrunCher tl;dr IdrA didn't cheese. | ||
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Amiralen
Sweden61 Posts
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Jotoco
Brazil1342 Posts
On April 19 2011 01:48 Amiralen wrote: Cannot believe we are even having this discussion on Overlord drops being cheese :S Yeah! Because attacking is cheese! ...... We are quickly running out of "standard" strategies. | ||
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DoubleReed
United States4130 Posts
On April 19 2011 01:47 Dispersion wrote: I'm trying to determine your definition of cheese. The hydra drops were beautifully done. Two-pronged hydra drops and Socke didn't have the APM to defend them both and therefore one of the drops literally tore the mineral line apart. That's not cheese, that's genius. The ling/roach all-in was necessary to defend that 5gate. Like InControl and Gretorp were saying, the only way IdrA could have defended the first one was to preemptively make spines, which everyone knows IdrA wouldn't do because of the economical sacrifice it would have. But then all Socke had to do was FF the ramp and it was gg. tl;dr IdrA didn't cheese. Because he didn't know what Socke was doing? He did not scout the stargate build in game 2. He just guessed Socke would do that because he's played him on that map. Idra even said the Hydra Drops were all-in. The ling/roach all-in he did regardless of what Socke was doing. If Socke had played standard instead of his crazy aggression he would have won. Idra won the guessing game. I'm not really faulting him for it, but it gives me the impression that he really thinks the matchup is hopeless. | ||
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Dispersion
Korea (South)504 Posts
On April 19 2011 01:48 Amiralen wrote: Cannot believe we are even having this discussion on Overlord drops being cheese :S I'm agreeing with a previous poster. If OL drops are cheese, isn't 1-1-1 into infantry drop cheese? Would a tank drop on LT (RIP  ) be cheese? | ||
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ToastieNL
Netherlands845 Posts
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Dispersion
Korea (South)504 Posts
On April 19 2011 01:59 ToastieNL wrote: I guess they'd be on equal power as cheese, but without the risk? I feel like cheese is something that's extremely hard to come back from economically. (4gate, 6pool, proxy 2rax before depot pre-patch) | ||
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WeeKeong
United States282 Posts
On April 19 2011 02:01 Dispersion wrote: I feel like cheese is something that's extremely hard to come back from economically. (4gate, 6pool, proxy 2rax before depot pre-patch) That's an all-in. All-ins =/= cheese. | ||
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number1gog
United States1081 Posts
I don't see why a 2 base hydra drop strat would be considered cheesy. Depending on the level of commitment to the drop, it might not even be considered all-in. Also, every time the page loads and I see the "404" I think, "well fuck teamliquid is down?!" | ||
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ch33psh33p
7650 Posts
Thats all there is to it, doesn't matter on our definitions of cheese, I was just referencing how difficult it is for Zergs right now. | ||
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decaf
Austria1797 Posts
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ABOOMAN
Burma156 Posts
The main reason is super small main to natural ramps, with normal sentry count protoss can delay reinforcements forever, and its impossible to stop, unless you go all in yourself before that. Thats not really a good game design in my opinion, thats just flipping coins | ||
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number1gog
United States1081 Posts
On April 19 2011 02:10 ch33psh33p wrote: Idra said himself that both plays were blind all-ins. Thats all there is to it, doesn't matter on our definitions of cheese, I was just referencing how difficult it is for Zergs right now. Yeah, it's definitely true that a protoss needs to be defeated in the early/mid game. Beating late game toss is so hard right now.... | ||
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Let it Raine
Canada1245 Posts
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Indrium
United States2236 Posts
On April 19 2011 02:11 decaf wrote: Just watched the first NASL game of Idra vs Socke. I dont know why IdrA doesnt sac an overlord, he should know when the 4th and 5th gates go up. On close are it should be rally easy to scout his main with overlords. That would be saccing a second overlord, and Socke is competent, it wouldn't have seen anything. It was very far in the base. The zergling scout was the best he could do in that situation, but I feel like the only think he could've done to fight that off was spawn cross. And on everyone talking about cheese: "Cheese most often refers to an unexpected strategy that relies on large parts on secrecy and/or psychological impact on the opponent." -Liquipedia The term gets butchered, I feel, to refer to any early aggression or all in attack. IdrA didn't cheese. He may have all-inned, but he didn't cheese. | ||
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Eldanesh
United States6 Posts
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Essentia
1150 Posts
On April 19 2011 02:19 Eldanesh wrote: Half of the people here need to learn what cheese actually is. ppl think anything other than 100 percent standard play is cheese. | ||
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BandonBanshee
Canada437 Posts
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