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On April 08 2014 15:22 llIH wrote:
If you are playing a match vs a carry heavy team. And you are playing solo queue. How do you play it? Shouldn't it be fairly easy?
What if we start to push, and they split push. Should we equalize the split push by defending but still pushing with the others? We will be able to make a 4vs4 for example?
Match ID: 599473657
I would like some general strategy plan that is common to use against this kind of picks.
kill them and their towers then take rosh then kill rax
important step don't lose your own towers. they have like 10k more tower damage than you idk how that happened but it shouldn't
their team isn't actually that bad for a 5carry team but you should still be able to win every teamfight with your lineup
if they splitpush it shouldn't matter you should be break even in like a 3v5
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Im just mediocre but I think the disadvantage 5 carries on a team have, is that they all need/demand farm and xp, almost never ward, rotate or help eachother early in the game. They also share xp and gold, so it takes them alot longer to come online. Thats why people in lower mmr ranges request/expect ganks from a sololane (mid)hero, because they need more time with shared gold/xp. You can abuse this in the early game, but when they are allready splitpushing effectively you apparantly missed your window of succes or failed in execution.
1. Ganking (with smoke) early should be doable as they wont have much vision on the map (carries normally dont invest much gold in vision). Communicate gankattempts really early so that other hero's save some mana for there nukes and dont push the lane too hard. Sololanes are great targets because these hero's should carry the enemy team during the earlier stages of the game. If you can take them out it should be an easy win.
2. If they have a jungler, ward some camps except the most accesible ones, check these camp to harras/gank. There jungler needs to spend gold too counterward. This will delay there timings alot. Without vision they wont see your gankattempts comming.
3. Make sure your corehero's are fine with you leaving the lane. Your ganks will not be effective if your corehero's are getting destroyed because of it.
4. If any lane is pushed to much, dont waste a smoke or alot of mana to harras/gank, it delays your effectiveness in the early game.
5. Destroying there tier 1 jungletower is a big deal as it decreases there safe farming potential by alot and increasing your gankpotential.
6. Dont feed.
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On April 08 2014 10:10 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2014 09:19 njt7 wrote:On April 08 2014 08:46 Darkren wrote:On April 08 2014 08:25 Shikada wrote:
Guys, what's your take on building a wand compared to leaving it as a magic stick only? I hear very divided opinions about this. I would say in pubs go for wand 100% of the time 5 more charges and more healing/mana per charges is really a bargain for150, since most of the time you already have brances, it saves your life and gives that extra mana in alot of early important teamfight It has never failed me Both give 15/15 I have no idea where this false information is coming from, is it from hon or some shit? I have a friend who also used to believe that you got more from your magic wand charges and he liked using the courier to ferry his recipe. I usually played mid trying to carry him, ferrying a magic wand recipe is one of the stupidest thing one can use early courier time with. It only gives you more inventory space to work with which you dont need early. Stick is 10 charges, carry. Learn the game before ranting so hard on best item in game.
"Insert language flame".
I never tried to hurt anyones feeling just trying to get people to understand that magic wand recipe is just barely better compared to just keeping your stick. As long as you actually use your magic stick when it reaches 10 you get the same health/mana value from an item costing 200 compared to 500.
So yeah assuming we use our magic wand before 11 charges and we dont need more inventory space right at this moment. We have now spent 150gold on nothing. NOTHING. Dota is a game about being efficient and spending money on nothing is sometimes bad. Using early courier time makes this even worse when the courier could have spent the time ferrying boots/ bottle/treads. Even if there wasnt any need for the courier elsewhere Id rather see the courier staying in fountain then sending a magic wand recipe just because of the risk of it dying.
My point is that the best item in the game is stick, wand is just a slightly overpriced version of it. Another point I am trying to make is that courier time is a resource, and it is also a risk using it.
I know quite a lot about dota but I have never claimed to have learnt it, that is the charm with dota there is always something new to learn. Im here trying to help people learn more about this game, I cant actually see anything useful in your post. Why are you ranting?
The only thing worse then dying with a 10 charged stick is dying with a 15 charged wand.
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Lalalaland34510 Posts
The other thing you're spending 150 gold on is inventory space, combining the three branches.
I personally usually stick with a Magic Stick unless I'm a support where three Branches is very valuable as stats, or if I already have the three Branches anyway.
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On April 08 2014 15:22 llIH wrote:
If you are playing a match vs a carry heavy team. And you are playing solo queue. How do you play it? Shouldn't it be fairly easy?
What if we start to push, and they split push. Should we equalize the split push by defending but still pushing with the others? We will be able to make a 4vs4 for example?
Match ID: 599473657
I would like some general strategy plan that is common to use against this kind of picks.
Took a look at the match. Overall when facing carry heave lineups I often feel the game should be won during the laning stage. Or at least you should be able to get a solid advantage and then kinda snowball off of that. Granted this game you did win the laning stage, but honestly that was mostly because Invoker was rolling over their SF. The game couldve gone bad way earlier had they been splitting mid farm, or worse, SF beating the invoker.
The big problem though was your trilane was kinda failing. That is very typical of pub-trilanes and if you ask me something you often want to make sure you do properly before doing it. But either way the trilane setup with BM as "support" is questionable to begin with, and then he failed a bunch of early pulls and eventually resorted to some kind of single camp jungling. He (lets hope you werent the BM!) was honestly quite a burden early game. There was little lane control or and the normally weak drow/necro were largely splitting farm with Naix. That shouldnt happen. Even with a questionable support like BM, with proper pulling and zoning out the offlaners you should be securing way more farm than you did. About 10min into the game Naix was still only like 5cs ahead of drow+necro.
Then come midgame you did ok. Mostly because of invoker again. Maybe there was a little bit too much "getting cute" walking around trying to gank as opposed to play object based and get towers, but thats typical of pubs. But considering you got your first tower at like 14-15min something you didnt push your advantage as much as you could have. You were getting kills but they were farming more effectively so it did stall the game somewhat which was to their advantage.
The breaking point was you letting go of Rosh (you shouldve forced a fight there while you had the advantage) and taking a bad fight in their jungle against their Aegis ataround 24min. You still had a slight advantage up to that point imo but from there on you kinda lost hold of the game and it became theirs to lose. And considering their pushing power with drow, SF, Lycan they had kind of an easier time breaking your base.
Overall it seemed like a pretty typical pub-loss. Trilane-fail and too little coordination and team and objective based play and a little bit too much everyone running around doing their thing.
Generally speaking and not related to the game: As a general rule of thumb I just think you should focus way more on laning than many realise when facing carry heavy lineups. If you get to the point in a game where you have a hard time finding time and space to push because they keep splitpushing its often because they got enough space to do so. Proper lineups with 3 core + 2 good supports should almost always win the laning stage against 5 carry/semicarry lineups. Then you need to push your advantage from that point. If you win the laning stage you should be able to either take over their jungle to restrict farm, take down all their outer towers, take rosh or similar. If you never got to that point where you felt you could do this, you should probably look towards what you couldve done better during laning.
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United States47024 Posts
On April 08 2014 20:04 njt7 wrote:
The only thing worse then dying with a 10 charged stick is dying with a 15 charged wand.
I would argue that worse than both is wasting your charges when you would have died anyway, which is arguably an even more common occurrence.
Stick/Wand's highest value is when the 150/150 or 225/225 enable you to escape when you otherwise wouldn't or enable counter-kills that would never have happened. You don't want to pop it just because you maxed out. You want to always pop the item in a vital moment, and for that the extra 75/75 is a big deal.
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Show nested quote +On April 08 2014 20:31 Kreb wrote:On April 08 2014 15:22 llIH wrote:
If you are playing a match vs a carry heavy team. And you are playing solo queue. How do you play it? Shouldn't it be fairly easy?
What if we start to push, and they split push. Should we equalize the split push by defending but still pushing with the others? We will be able to make a 4vs4 for example?
Match ID: 599473657
I would like some general strategy plan that is common to use against this kind of picks.
Took a look at the match. Overall when facing carry heave lineups I often feel the game should be won during the laning stage. Or at least you should be able to get a solid advantage and then kinda snowball off of that. Granted this game you did win the laning stage, but honestly that was mostly because Invoker was rolling over their SF. The game couldve gone bad way earlier had they been splitting mid farm, or worse, SF beating the invoker. The big problem though was your trilane was kinda failing. That is very typical of pub-trilanes and if you ask me something you often want to make sure you do properly before doing it. But either way the trilane setup with BM as "support" is questionable to begin with, and then he failed a bunch of early pulls and eventually resorted to some kind of single camp jungling. He (lets hope you werent the BM!) was honestly quite a burden early game. There was little lane control or and the normally weak drow/necro were largely splitting farm with Naix. That shouldnt happen. Even with a questionable support like BM, with proper pulling and zoning out the offlaners you should be securing way more farm than you did. About 10min into the game Naix was still only like 5cs ahead of drow+necro. Then come midgame you did ok. Mostly because of invoker again. Maybe there was a little bit too much "getting cute" walking around trying to gank as opposed to play object based and get towers, but thats typical of pubs. But considering you got your first tower at like 14-15min something you didnt push your advantage as much as you could have. You were getting kills but they were farming more effectively so it did stall the game somewhat which was to their advantage. The breaking point was you letting go of Rosh (you shouldve forced a fight there while you had the advantage) and taking a bad fight in their jungle against their Aegis ataround 24min. You still had a slight advantage up to that point imo but from there on you kinda lost hold of the game and it became theirs to lose. And considering their pushing power with drow, SF, Lycan they had kind of an easier time breaking your base. Overall it seemed like a pretty typical pub-loss. Trilane-fail and too little coordination and team and objective based play and a little bit too much everyone running around doing their thing. Generally speaking and not related to the game: As a general rule of thumb I just think you should focus way more on laning than many realise when facing carry heavy lineups. If you get to the point in a game where you have a hard time finding time and space to push because they keep splitpushing its often because they got enough space to do so. Proper lineups with 3 core + 2 good supports should almost always win the laning stage against 5 carry/semicarry lineups. Then you need to push your advantage from that point. If you win the laning stage you should be able to either take over their jungle to restrict farm, take down all their outer towers, take rosh or similar. If you never got to that point where you felt you could do this, you should probably look towards what you couldve done better during laning.
Wow thank you so much!
This was really great. Appreciate you spending time to reply so thoroughly.
Yeah the trilane was horrible. I watched it. I was invoker, and I failed late game. Because I tilted from rage at bot lane. (I did not write them)
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A new question
Is there a way to lock the camera to your hero without holding your mouse click on your portait?
I see pros do it when they block creeps of the first wave.
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United States47024 Posts
Bind select hero to a key, hold that key down.
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Go to console and type
bind <Key> dota_camera_lock "1"
bind <Key> dota_camera_lock "0"
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Lalalaland34510 Posts
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On April 08 2014 21:19 llIH wrote:
A new question
Is there a way to lock the camera to your hero without holding your mouse click on your portait?
I see pros do it when they block creeps of the first wave.
Double left click on portrait should work. It dispels when you hover mouse to the edges.
I wonder why you try to do this.
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On April 08 2014 21:21 TheYango wrote:
Bind select hero to a key, hold that key down.
Thanks
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The land of freedom23126 Posts
On April 08 2014 12:39 Discarder wrote:
I've been searching but I can't find the answer to my question. If ogre casts fireblast with multicast on a linken equipped hero. does the linken block everything or just one spell?
Everything.
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I have a question about boots. Lately I've been seeing lots of pros getting treads on Invoker. Why? In the same vein, I always struggle knowing when I should build treads+urn or phase+bottle on Clockwerk. I will pick up arcanes if our team doesn't have an arcanes carrier. However, past that it gets really situational and I'm not sure when to build what.
Thanks in advance.
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i have been randoming for a while too diversify my heropool a bit. I came accros bloodseeker and i really sucked with that guy, i used the searchfunction but it didnt gave me much results or i missed it. So, i did some research on datdota and the pro's dont seem to have reached consensus about this guy in 6.80. Some items i have seen in the last 6 promatches in 6.80 with bloodseeka : PT, phaseboots, radiance, drums, forcestaff, S&Y, manta, butterblies, vangaurd, shadowblade, drums, bkb, dagon, blademail.
So, my questions :
1. What skillorder seems best?
2. What items should i mostly go for?
3. When do you rush a radiance? (as this seems a wierd item for a bloodseeker)
4. When do you rush a blademail? (as this seems a wierd item for a bloodseeker)
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Lalalaland34510 Posts
On April 09 2014 02:51 govie wrote:
i have been randoming for a while too diversify my heropool a bit. I came accros bloodseeker and i really sucked with that guy, i used the searchfunction but it didnt gave me much results or i missed it. So, i did some research on datdota and the pro's dont seem to have reached consensus about this guy in 6.80. Some items i have seen in the last 6 promatches in 6.80 with bloodseeka : PT, phaseboots, radiance, drums, forcestaff, S&Y, manta, butterblies, vangaurd, shadowblade, drums, bkb, dagon, blademail.
So, my questions :
1. What skillorder seems best?
2. What items should i mostly go for?
3. When do you rush a radiance? (as this seems a wierd item for a bloodseeker)
4. When do you rush a blademail? (as this seems a wierd item for a bloodseeker)
More of a Bloodseeker discussion thread than a SQ/SA question: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/dota-2-strategy/446619-hero-bloodseeker
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The land of freedom23126 Posts
On April 09 2014 02:21 nutgraf wrote:
I have a question about boots. Lately I've been seeing lots of pros getting treads on Invoker. Why? In the same vein, I always struggle knowing when I should build treads+urn or phase+bottle on Clockwerk. I will pick up arcanes if our team doesn't have an arcanes carrier. However, past that it gets really situational and I'm not sure when to build what.
Thanks in advance.
It's all about situations, threads are just better than phase boots in general, if you don't need raw damage. That's for every hero.
H4nn1 goes midas/bots every Invoker game for example, he's not caring about threads/phases.
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On April 09 2014 02:51 govie wrote:
i have been randoming for a while too diversify my heropool a bit. I came accros bloodseeker and i really sucked with that guy, i used the searchfunction but it didnt gave me much results or i missed it. So, i did some research on datdota and the pro's dont seem to have reached consensus about this guy in 6.80. Some items i have seen in the last 6 promatches in 6.80 with bloodseeka : PT, phaseboots, radiance, drums, forcestaff, S&Y, manta, butterblies, vangaurd, shadowblade, drums, bkb, dagon, blademail.
So, my questions :
1. What skillorder seems best?
2. What items should i mostly go for?
3. When do you rush a radiance? (as this seems a wierd item for a bloodseeker)
4. When do you rush a blademail? (as this seems a wierd item for a bloodseeker)
Purely from looking at Wagas stream a bit (he seems to like bloodseeker) he seems to favour stat items that makes you tankier while giving you a bit of damage. It kinda makes sense though since you'll never be that run-in-and-wreck-shit-hero that just slay stuff in seconds. To actually be able to hit stuff you need to tank up. Thats the reason for blademail, you just get focused down and/or kited if you build for raw damage.
I think his go-to build was something along the lines of Treads->Drums->Blademail->SnY->Mjollnir. BKB if needed. All kinda semi-tank/semi-dmg items. It seems reasonable to me too. Hitting a blademail + eventually mjollnir bloodseeker is something you need to think twice about before you do.
Dagon and Force aer pub stomp items (feel free if you wanna have a bit of fun). Vanguard is wasted 875g because he doesnt need the regen.
And dont go radiance. Please.
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United States47024 Posts
The draw of Blademail on Bloodseeker is largely to abuse the DotA 2 bug where if a lethal damage instance to you also kills an enemy due to Blademail, you get the effect of the Blood Bath heal before you would die and therefore might end up surviving.
It's pretty gimmicky though.
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EPT
