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QW is fundamentally a wex-based build. Quas is always important for invoker's laning since the regen and cold-snap are crucial, but after ~3 early levels in quas its all about wex for this build as your midgame will centre around tornado and EMP, as well as your incredible mobility with 3 wex orbs and phase boots.
The transition into exort generally happens when EITHER you feel like after tornado/emp you need another teamfight spell desperately OR when you feel like tornado does enough disable to reliably hit EMP and you no longer need to level quas further. Wex will still almost always take priority so this refers to when you start putting off points into exort over quas. Further points in quas after the lane stage are primarily valuable for the tornado duration and once that is sufficient quas becomes a very low priority.
The 2nd point in invoke is often considered wasted so a potential skill build to 12 (level 3 invoke) can look like: + Show Spoiler +
1 Quas
2 Invoke
3 Quas
4 Wex
5 Quas
6 Wex
7 Wex
8 Wex
9 Wex
10 Invoke
11 Wex
12 Invoke
However, I'm not a big invoker player. This is mostly theory 
TL;DR:
Quas = Laning power, Tornado disable duration. Level for those reasons.
Wex = Your bread and butter midgame power. Tornado range, EMP burn, Mobility around the map, also scales great with your exort stuff
Exort = Lategame damage and the ability to invoke more teamfight skills. Usually worse than more wex.
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The land of freedom23126 Posts
On February 25 2014 07:00 TheSubtleArt wrote:
Can someone give me a very general outline on how to skill Quas Wex Invoker? I'm really familiar with Quas / Exort Invoker, but haven't really tried him since all the QW buffs, and hence have very little experience playing that build.
I know it'll vary game to game, but are there any general guidelines on how to skill QW, when to start putting points into exort, when to cap certain skills ,etc?
Like always, QRQWEQWR and then wex and exort.
Usually though you're not getting point in exort until you don't have to (10th lvl if capping Q at 3), but i'm not fan of casting almost nothing.
And i saw dude, who maxed W asap and was running like F1 car under ghost walk with orchid killing everyone. Until he realised that he doesn't have enough power for 3 spells and bought scepter D:
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Is it viable to jungle doom? I dont really bother with stacking, just straight up camp clearing, and i have had reasonable success with in the pubs games (22 minutes radiance, phase, midas, vlads) is my best farm rate with no harass.
But just kind of wondering if this will fall off at higher mmr or if I can continue to do it. Also ive seen the wildkin stacking options, but not really big fan of that given the chance involved.
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On February 25 2014 13:22 Darpa wrote:
Is it viable to jungle doom? I dont really bother with stacking, just straight up camp clearing, and i have had reasonable success with in the pubs games (22 minutes radiance, phase, midas, vlads) is my best farm rate with no harass.
But just kind of wondering if this will fall off at higher mmr or if I can continue to do it. Also ive seen the wildkin stacking options, but not really big fan of that given the chance involved.
Not sure if vlads radiance is the build you want. I've seen people have good success with phase/blink/shiva -> refresher.
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United States47024 Posts
Doom Jungle is fine, the main thing is that as you move up, you have less leeway to play such farmy builds that delay your influence on the game. Items that give you more immediate ganking/fighting power like Blink become preferable over farming items like Radiance, and you need to be more proactive in using boots advantage+creep skills to gank for lanes.
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On February 25 2014 13:22 Darpa wrote:
Is it viable to jungle doom? I dont really bother with stacking, just straight up camp clearing, and i have had reasonable success with in the pubs games (22 minutes radiance, phase, midas, vlads) is my best farm rate with no harass.
But just kind of wondering if this will fall off at higher mmr or if I can continue to do it. Also ive seen the wildkin stacking options, but not really big fan of that given the chance involved.
it is slow, you get more farm in the safelane - or you help your team more if you are offlane or mid. By jungling someone that can only help/gank after 10++ minutes of jungling is more often a burden than helpful for the team. Sure if your team can defend 4v5 for 20 minutes you will be insanely strong but if they can't the game is over before you ever do anything useful in the game. Also there are a lot of support heros that can just go to your jungle and there is little you can do about, they just stop you from jungling and you lose a lot of time, gold and exp.
Good Junglers would be chen and enchantress because they can gank at 1-2 minutes with a centaur or a troll creep and add teamheals and powerful push early in the game. Other junglers are usually supports - and their carry doesn't need them in the lane, like a sandking, maiden or enigma.
Pub junglers (doom, lifestealer, bloodseeker, natures prophet, axe, wraith king, lycan, legion commander, Lone Druid, Ursa) are all better in lane.
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United States47024 Posts
Doom actually can gank just fine at low levels. Pubs just don't do it because of the fear that failing a gank basically ruins your tempo because you have no mana to return to jungling. But if you have enough confidence in your execution it actually works just fine, because a Doom gank with boots advantage and Centaur/Ursa stomp is still quite effective, even if it's less effective than Chen or Enchan. He's also an extremely strong fighter if he buys basic fighting items (Bracer, Wand, Platemail, etc.) and skills his 2 fighting skills--but again, most jungle Dooms just buy Midas and max Devour.
Playing for earlier fights/ganks is arguably the much better way to play Doom out of the jungle, it's just that most pub junglers see getting the jungle as a ticket to afk-farm when in actuality you should be even more vigilant about helping the lanes because making the lanes a 4v5 inherently means your team is somewhat disadvantaged if you just let lanes play out.
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On February 25 2014 16:45 TheYango wrote:
Doom actually can gank just fine at low levels. Pubs just don't do it because of the fear that failing a gank basically ruins your tempo because you have no mana to return to jungling. But if you have enough confidence in your execution it actually works just fine, because a Doom gank with boots advantage and Centaur/Ursa stomp is still quite effective, even if it's less effective than Chen or Enchan. He's also an extremely strong fighter if he buys basic fighting items (Bracer, Wand, Platemail, etc.) and skills his 2 fighting skills--but again, most jungle Dooms just buy Midas and max Devour.
Playing for earlier fights/ganks is arguably the much better way to play Doom out of the jungle, it's just that most pub junglers see getting the jungle as a ticket to afk-farm when in actuality you should be even more vigilant about helping the lanes because making the lanes a 4v5 inherently means your team is somewhat disadvantaged if you just let lanes play out.
so what do you do if a lvl 1 rubick sits in your jungle? or a bounty hunter or whatever.
going to a lane is kinda iffy because what lane do you go to? steal exp from you safelane carry? i really dislike jungling because it can go so wrong so fast.
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well that would be 4v4 in lanes and basically you'd have gold and exp advantage (in the long run) against the bh/rubick because of devour?
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On February 25 2014 17:19 icystorage wrote:
well that would be 4v4 in lanes and basically you'd have gold and exp advantage (in the long run) against the bh/rubick because of devour?
I would trade levels and farm on a support for levels and farm on doom any day. And bounty hunter can catch up with track kills, doom can't really farm if he gets harassed by a ranged support in the jungle. He just gets kited or some support helps him. But if you have a jungler that means there is only 1 support and if he leaves the safelane the carry doesn't get (as much) farm. It is just a loss for the team with the jungler every single time if you contest his jungle.
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Well, it's a loss until your team rotates and kills the rubick which is deep in the enemy jungle alone.
Something like a BH is a nightmare, sure, but random supports walking through the jungle are mild annoyances at worst, and total food if they follow him to deeper camps. It's well worth the carry being solo for 45 seconds if it gets the support and doom a kill.
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United States47024 Posts
On February 25 2014 18:19 Belisarius wrote:
Something like a BH is a nightmare, sure, but random supports walking through the jungle are mild annoyances at worst, and total food if they follow him to deeper camps. It's well worth the carry being solo for 45 seconds if it gets the support and doom a kill.
Pretty much this. Unless mid and support are totally blind, you can't just waltz into the inner hard camp to contest jungle and get out alive. Your concern is valid for junglers that have to start with a medium or easy camp because contesting those is easy, but Doom falls into the same category as Chen, Enchantress, Furion, and Enigma in that he has no problem starting with the inner hard camp.
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On February 24 2014 12:20 BoZiffer wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2014 07:25 DrPandaPhD wrote:
I go max clap one in brawler until lvl 10 as mid panda with bottle phase.
And max clap and passive in a sidelane. Duo offlane brew + shadow demon is superlegit 2v2 situation when they have a useless jungler like LC.
I think drums are pretty bad on brew and not worth the money. Mid go Phase + Bottle + Wand -> Blink -> Agh -> Shiva/AC/Abyssal mix. Also imo better to let someone else buy vlads. Even though Brew is a really good aura hero those items are generally slot inefficient in his case I think. Most gems will be given to him so Phase + bottle + wand + TP scroll + blink + gem + aghs is already 7 slots. So you are already starting to replace items by this phase of the game. Better let someone else get vlads/drums.
Side go Arcanes Magic wand/stick -> blink -> agh -> Shiva/AC/Abyssal mix. A bit more reasonable to go vlads here, but I would still avoid it unless you have a bad game. So Drums are NOT core on Panda then huh? Torte's guide has them listed as a core item.
I put them as core because of how popular, usual it is to get them. I would get them nearly every game because of how vital I find them being used and personally used.
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does slark pounce hit invis heros? and how do you guarantee that you will hit ember spirit snare on your desired target 100% of the time ?
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The land of freedom23126 Posts
On February 25 2014 21:08 Tsutchie wrote:
does slark pounce hit invis heros? and how do you guarantee that you will hit ember spirit snare on your desired target 100% of the time ?
Yep it hits.
Guarantee? Distuinguish 3 targets from the pack, ensnare him.
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On February 25 2014 19:09 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2014 12:20 BoZiffer wrote:On February 23 2014 07:25 DrPandaPhD wrote:
I go max clap one in brawler until lvl 10 as mid panda with bottle phase.
And max clap and passive in a sidelane. Duo offlane brew + shadow demon is superlegit 2v2 situation when they have a useless jungler like LC.
I think drums are pretty bad on brew and not worth the money. Mid go Phase + Bottle + Wand -> Blink -> Agh -> Shiva/AC/Abyssal mix. Also imo better to let someone else buy vlads. Even though Brew is a really good aura hero those items are generally slot inefficient in his case I think. Most gems will be given to him so Phase + bottle + wand + TP scroll + blink + gem + aghs is already 7 slots. So you are already starting to replace items by this phase of the game. Better let someone else get vlads/drums.
Side go Arcanes Magic wand/stick -> blink -> agh -> Shiva/AC/Abyssal mix. A bit more reasonable to go vlads here, but I would still avoid it unless you have a bad game. So Drums are NOT core on Panda then huh? Torte's guide has them listed as a core item. I put them as core because of how popular, usual it is to get them. I would get them nearly every game because of how vital I find them being used and personally used.
Cool, thanks Torte. I only brought it up because it was the first time I heard Drums described as 'bad' on the hero. Love your guides bro.
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I can't seem to find a good group/clan to join. I hate queuing solo or with one/two friends because the other teammates may have no communication or teamwork at all, making the game unpleasant. I certainly play my best every game, and try to learn/teach while being friendly, but I really wish I could sign on to a guild that has a few people online where I can organize a group of 5, and have some understanding that we'll all work together.
Is there a good resource to find a group like this that I'm missing?
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Friendliness is the best resource to find a group like that.
Thing is, those groups work best when you have 6-15 people who play most nights so that you can consistently make a 5-stack (or two, or a 10-man inhouse, or w/e) while still being personal friends with everybody in the group. Once the group gets too much bigger, you aren't friends with everybody and it rapidly becomes no better than random pubs. Because honestly, without being friends with people everybody just forgets that there's a person sitting behind that screen and everything goes to shit.
So its kinda up to you to get your little "dota clique" and play within it if you feel the need to play with a group. Honestly most people playing in MM would be playing in a stack if they had one, so add friendly people who use their mics and make your own stack. The "fdsdfg" stack!
Note that I'm not talking about being competitive (and I assume you aren't talking about it either) just about having a playgroup that you can have fun with and also hopefully improve with in a constructive and fun environment without feeling too pressured or w/e.
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On February 26 2014 03:00 Sn0_Man wrote:
Friendliness is the best resource to find a group like that.
Thing is, those groups work best when you have 6-15 people who play most nights so that you can consistently make a 5-stack (or two, or a 10-man inhouse, or w/e) while still being personal friends with everybody in the group. Once the group gets too much bigger, you aren't friends with everybody and it rapidly becomes no better than random pubs. Because honestly, without being friends with people everybody just forgets that there's a person sitting behind that screen and everything goes to shit.
So its kinda up to you to get your little "dota clique" and play within it if you feel the need to play with a group. Honestly most people playing in MM would be playing in a stack if they had one, so add friendly people who use their mics and make your own stack. The "fdsdfg" stack!
Note that I'm not talking about being competitive (and I assume you aren't talking about it either) just about having a playgroup that you can have fun with and also hopefully improve with in a constructive and fun environment without feeling too pressured or w/e.
Ya, its mostlye what Sno said.
YOu should start by making a Group in the platform that its easier for everyone to be in, and the one you know most people will check. Then if you're friendly enuff, and a good "teammate" so people want to play with you, start adding people and then make them join the group, get 10-20 and u might have stacks all day or inhouses.
Edit: I already did that like in 2012, and it worked out pretty well, thing is, its hard to keep it going for long (more than 3-4 months), i got like 40 people in a Steam group and we chatted, played etc, was pretty gud and i made good friends from it. (obviously im up for your group if you decide to make it).
GL
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Why is Bloodseeker considered to be trash? Obviously he's a situational pick at best in competitive play, but with how much he can shut down heros who rely heavily on mobility (storm, weaver, etc.), couldn't he be a good pick occasionally? Does it just come down to the difficulty of fitting him into a lane setup (not worth giving the safelane, can be shut down mid)? Could he be a viable offlaner vs weak safelanes or a viable solo safelane when you're running an aggressive tri?
Also, are there any good fairly advanced support guides out there? I'm really unsure about what to do as a support in many situations (things like when I'm supposed to be pulling in tri vs tri).
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EPT
