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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On February 11 2014 00:37 Sn0_Man wrote:
Slardar's the easiest hero in dota to build.
Blink + treads into BKB into you already won but if you didn't start buying an AC and go from there.
HH is surprisingly good on slardar as extension, though obviously HH is *always* situational.
Vanguard is bad and every pro game that a slardar goes vanguard they either lose or don't actually benefit from having it. Although u can actually jungle with a vanguard which is an area slardar generally doesn't farm as well as most other carries.
I prefer more expensive pre bkb build:
Treads+Blink+Armet+HotD. Ton of armor, metric fton of damage with AS and lifesteal on top of that. What not to like :3? Ofc bkb can be gotten before Armlet/HotD if there is heavy pure/magic damage and/or disable presence on opp's team.
Also, fun fact, if you do not really need that -armor from AC or there is a good AC aura holder as teammate, butterfly is better source of protection before enemies figure it out and build mkb :D (some math to understand how physical protection from armor scales: if there was no agility on butterfly, you would need 17 armor for 35% evasion to break even with +15 armor from AC. Since there is 30 agility on butterfly you only need to have less than 10 armor (i believe less than 8 even) for butterfly to break even with AC). Crits/Satanic/situational (and only situational) mkb as luxuries.
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United States47024 Posts
Midas is a superior farming choice, that is correct. However, Armlet is much easier to buy post-Blink pre-BKB because Midas+Blink puts a much larger hole in your fighting effectiveness than Armlet+Blink does. Generally if I'm considering Midas on that hero, it's a choice I'd make before Blink (as having the Midas first hurts you less when you get to Midas+Blink because by then, the Midas will have paid for much more of its cost), while post-Blink a farming tempo would favor Armlet.
On February 11 2014 00:47 lolfail9001 wrote:
I prefer more expensive pre bkb build:
Treads+Blink+Armet+HotD. Ton of armor, metric fton of damage with AS and lifesteal on top of that. What not to like :3? Ofc bkb can be gotten before Armlet/HotD if there is heavy pure/magic damage and/or disable presence on opp's team.
That's not really the justification for BKB.
You buy BKB when the game state dictates that it will have the largest possible impact on the outcome of fights. This is difficult to judge and puts a lot of the burden on the player's ability to judge how the game is going, but it's simply not correct to get BKB at a fixed point in your development, or to decide when to buy it based solely on teamcomp. Particularly with the repeated nerfs to BKB's effectiveness, it's become an item that's more and more dependent on the user's game sense in selecting the most appropriate timing for it.
This isn't just true of Slardar--this is true of any hero that buys BKB.
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On February 11 2014 00:47 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 00:37 Sn0_Man wrote:
Slardar's the easiest hero in dota to build.
Blink + treads into BKB into you already won but if you didn't start buying an AC and go from there.
HH is surprisingly good on slardar as extension, though obviously HH is *always* situational.
Vanguard is bad and every pro game that a slardar goes vanguard they either lose or don't actually benefit from having it. Although u can actually jungle with a vanguard which is an area slardar generally doesn't farm as well as most other carries. I prefer more expensive pre bkb build: Treads+Blink+Armet+HotD. Ton of armor, metric fton of damage with AS and lifesteal on top of that. What not to like :3? Ofc bkb can be gotten before Armlet/HotD if there is heavy pure/magic damage and/or disable presence on opp's team. Also, fun fact, if you do not really need that -armor from AC or there is a good AC aura holder as teammate, butterfly is better source of protection before enemies figure it out and build mkb :D (some math to understand how physical protection from armor scales: if there was no agility on butterfly, you would need 17 armor for 35% evasion to break even with +15 armor from AC. Since there is 30 agility on butterfly you only need to have less than 10 armor (i believe less than 8 even) for butterfly to break even with AC). Crits/Satanic/situational (and only situational) mkb as luxuries.
Please don't try to explain mechanics to me.
BKB gets better as your opponents get better because it removes the primary avenue most enemies have of interacting with you. The better the opponent, the more you need that BKB.
HotD doesn't really synergize with slardar much at all. But I suppose u can get it if you must. It does help farming if that is the gameplan. Which is awkward for slardar cuz if thats the gameplan there are usually problems.
@Yango so ur saying armlet post-blink instead of BKB because you buy a blink then discover your team can't fight even with a BKB? that sounds like a reallllllly awkward situation to find yourself in as slardar. Ideally you don't rush blink at all in that circumstance (or even pick slardar) but I guess games don't always progress the way you thought they would 5 mins ago.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On February 11 2014 00:47 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 00:47 lolfail9001 wrote:
I prefer more expensive pre bkb build:
Treads+Blink+Armet+HotD. Ton of armor, metric fton of damage with AS and lifesteal on top of that. What not to like :3? Ofc bkb can be gotten before Armlet/HotD if there is heavy pure/magic damage and/or disable presence on opp's team. That's not really the justification for BKB. You buy BKB when the game state dictates that it will have the largest possible impact on the outcome of fights. This is difficult to judge and puts a lot of the burden on the player's ability to judge how the game is going, but it's simply not correct to get BKB at a fixed point in your development, or to decide when to buy it based solely on teamcomp. Particularly with the repeated nerfs to BKB's effectiveness, it's become an item that's more and more dependent on the user's game sense in selecting the most appropriate timing for it.
Well, since blink by it's nature is an item that requires you to actually get kills to pay for it's cost, bkb earlier becomes more of a need to get them teamfight wins, but as always it's timing is situational. Obviously if there is no real possibility to take a team fight with or without bkb (disables ala fiend's grip, lasso or whatever), i will probably even delay blink and get armlet earlier,since it actually gives more bonuses than blink does at the cost of initiation ability (my game sense is honestly bad to use blink as escape tool most of the time).
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United States47024 Posts
On February 11 2014 00:52 Sn0_Man wrote:
@Yango so ur saying armlet post-blink instead of BKB because you buy a blink then discover your team can't fight even with a BKB? that sounds like a reallllllly awkward situation to find yourself in as slardar. Ideally you don't rush blink at all in that circumstance (or even pick slardar) but I guess games don't always progress the way you thought they would 5 mins ago.
Yes.
Those kinds of deviations are why you never see that kind of stuff in pro games because by and large, professional teams are much better at making things go the way they planned. But for the purpose of winning pubs (which is what's relevant to most people), being able to make those adjustments wins games.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On February 11 2014 00:52 Sn0_Man wrote:
HotD doesn't really synergize with slardar much at all. But I suppose u can get it if you must. It does help farming if that is the gameplan. Which is awkward for slardar cuz if thats the gameplan there are usually problems.
HotD helps you to somehow compensate life drain of armlet, not much else. + IIRC Bash works as bonus damage on attack when it procs so (again, IIRC) you can lifesteal from it (i am not sure about crit interaction with bash though T_T). And while slardar is not a good farmer, he certainly uses farm well.
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Bkb is a no fun item, under no circumstance should u get it if you want to have fun
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BKB is no fun for the other team.
If u don't get bkb u literally sit in one place all fight every fight getting stunlocked. Which is obviously the most fun in the world.
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On February 10 2014 23:52 evilfatsh1t wrote:
you just arent good at managing mana compared to higher lvl players then. nothing more to it
dont try and copy item builds from pros just because it seems like the right thing to do. if you go arcanes/mek and youre comfortable playing it and you can win games with it, theres no reason to force yourself to adapt to a new build.
also, those items arent unheard of in pro games either, its just tht clock doesnt need them as much. bottle is enough for clocks mana problems, force staff also gives mana. mek is usually gotten by someone else, but if it isnt clock can always get it. arcanes are also gotten on supports and pros are much better at using arcanes around teammates than pubs.
just keep playing and when you get better naturally at managing your mana and stuff, then you can try out these builds and make them work
Wait you mean they get a bottle when going treads/phase boots despite not going mid? Also ofc I know i'm terribad and that pro builds may not necessarily work at my level, but i'd still appreciate understanding why they do it and why it doesnt work for me.
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It's quite common yes.
Sometimes their mid doesn't even go bottle (OD/Invoker for example) and sometimes they just bottle crow.
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vanguard is good on slard because his stun lasts forever and is on an 8s cd
his job is basically to live as long as possible and hit stun ulti over and over
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Then just buy a sange for less gold and extend it into a HH later if thats why u want a vanguard.
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40 damage block is pretty noticable early game
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Are we talking before blink in which case you needed the blink to hit the initial crush anyway so just buy blink or after blink in which case at about 6K networth (Blink + treads + 2000g tank item) the damage block stops being noticeable?
Either way VG is the wrong choice.
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United States47024 Posts
On February 11 2014 04:20 Sn0_Man wrote:
you needed the blink to hit the initial crush anyway
That depends a lot on teamcomps and how fights are expected to play out (Blink gives you a better initial crush, while Vanguard lets you stay in the fight longer for subsequent crushes).
The main loss of going Vanguard first in pub games though is the big loss in ganking/solo-killing ability when you don't have Blink.
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I like to get a midas early on Slardar. It doesn't delay treads/blink that much and speed ac/bkb. It also makes the Slardar pick less 'all-in' as seen during empire/sigma recently
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On February 11 2014 04:05 Dead9 wrote:
vanguard is good on slard because his stun lasts forever and is on an 8s cd
his job is basically to live as long as possible and hit stun ulti over and over
His stun lasts 2 seconds actually. And he does not have infinite mana for that 250 HP to really kick in. I am not sure if that 250 HP actually allows him to live whole 6 seconds longer.
Also, armlet gives you even more survivability on top of making you legitimate threat on your own.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On February 11 2014 05:07 Erasme wrote:
I like to get a midas early on Slardar. It doesn't delay treads/blink that much and speed ac/bkb. It also makes the Slardar pick less 'all-in' as seen during empire/sigma recently
Slardar pick was all-in in sigma-empire because. A. they absolutely did not have anyone to use that amplify damage. Like really, they had bat, zeus and AA and another support. B. Slardar then invested almost 6k gold into 8 damage 30 attack speed before he started to try farm up bkb. Sorry, that's like going treads aghs on void. On team that cannot use chrono to their advantage at all.
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United States47024 Posts
On February 11 2014 05:22 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 04:05 Dead9 wrote:
vanguard is good on slard because his stun lasts forever and is on an 8s cd
his job is basically to live as long as possible and hit stun ulti over and over His stun lasts 2 seconds actually. And he does not have infinite mana for that 250 HP to really kick in. I am not sure if that 250 HP actually allows him to live whole 6 seconds longer. Also, armlet gives you even more survivability on top of making you legitimate threat on your own.
Armlet gives you high initial survivability but the HP drain exceeds the HP gained after ~14s. Unfortunately, it's those longer fights where you'd actually consider a survivability item over Blink first in the first place because in short fights, the immediate effectiveness of a strong Blink-Crush definitely wins out.
Armlet on Slardar is most definitely a DPS item and not considered as a survivability item that much.
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his stun lasts for 2.5s and slows for 2s after that
slard only has one spell that actually costs mana
i'm not saying vanguard is core or anything; i think blink is better in most cases, but it's an option if you need to survive a little bit longer so you can get a second stun off, or if you need the roh in lane against certain heroes
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EPT
