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Blitzkrieg0
United States13132 Posts
On February 10 2014 11:53 sluggaslamoo wrote: I remember when I watched artstyle play slardar and he took forever to buy boots, most likely for the same reason. Sprint is a %ms buff so skipping boots makes it significantly worse. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
A Blink before Boots Slardar is very all-in though. A Blink-first Slardar has a lot of trouble farming 1450 gold for Treads later if he went for Blink immediately and didn't get kills with it. Whereas a Treads Slardar has a much faster time getting the 2150 gold for Blink. | ||
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govie
9334 Posts
On February 10 2014 09:45 SKC wrote: You mean 2250 more gold? When it's 6x the value of the item you are comparing it to, and you only get the wanted benefit when you finish it, it's not a good alternative. You want boots fast. Also, Euls doesn't give you attack damage (unless you count the int for int heroes). I compared PT and Euls not naked boots. If a weaver, a hero with a good escape can play without boots, i can see other heros with a naturally good escape playing on an euls instead of boots for only 10 ms and 30 as less. Brainfarting i.e. : Batrider, Magnus, Qop, WIndrunner. Puck even Timbersaw or ember, as manaboots on these "non int heros" is common and they both have a good escape. | ||
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Belisarius
Australia6233 Posts
I'm genuinely curious what advantage you think heroes are going to get from buying Eul's. If you're advocating brownboots->Eul's over arcanes, you need to seriously reconsider the value of the team manaboost, and also realize that 1.3k is a metric butt-ton of gold for most of the heroes who buy arcanes. If you're advocating Eul's over PTs or a straight-up naked Eul's then that's even weirder, frankly, especially since this whole conversation started with the value of MS in lane, and Eul's would come well after lanes have been won. | ||
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TheMute
United States458 Posts
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Qbek
Poland12923 Posts
On February 10 2014 19:21 TheMute wrote: Does manually casting Viper's poison attack proc magic stick/wand? No, that would be broken  Orb effects don't count as spells for most purposes (i think all but i never deal in absolutes in this game) | ||
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icystorage
Jollibee19350 Posts
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govie
9334 Posts
On February 10 2014 18:45 Belisarius wrote: I wouldn't call manaboots "common" on many of those heroes, except Timber, who builds it into a bloodstone, and Mag, who does nothing with a Eul's that arcanes wouldn't achieve for 1.3k less gold, and has other items to prioritise. The others build arcanes situationally, and they build it because the situation calls for arcanes, not Eul's.... I'm genuinely curious what advantage you think heroes are going to get from buying Eul's. If you're advocating brownboots->Eul's over arcanes, you need to seriously reconsider the value of the team manaboost, and also realize that 1.3k is a metric butt-ton of gold for most of the heroes who buy arcanes. If you're advocating Eul's over PTs or a straight-up naked Eul's then that's even weirder, frankly, especially since this whole conversation started with the value of MS in lane, and Eul's would come well after lanes have been won. I am not advocating anything yet. Manaboots are good in lineups that require loads of mana in group/combo-like formations early. but less good when used mostly solo (which happens alot in pubs). When used solo they give u 1 spell extra every minute where a soulring would gives you twice that amount per minute. Back to my post : If a weaver can go bootless for a certain period, a hero with a similar escape could maybe try that aswell (which mostly are intheros). An euls does still give some movementspeed, int, manapool, manaregen, active skill which could be interesting option, thats it. But i do think u underestimate an euls because in certain lineups or "vs certain lineups" it could change timings or or the outcome of a fight;) To add, i saw envi build TQ boots on Phantom lancer twice yesterday, just because he feels a carry needs the HP regen early (and vlads suck, his words). I point this out because we maybe are to blind for other solo/team combo's that are out there. | ||
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lolfail9001
Russian Federation40190 Posts
I understand blink (though do not consider it that good, but trench tier problems) but vanguard!??? Item gives 0 damage on someone who really wants damage items to function well as damage dealer (due to his natural DPS being actually faceless void with amplify damage tier). | ||
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Orome
Switzerland11984 Posts
On February 10 2014 19:23 Qbek wrote: No, that would be broken Orb effects don't count as spells for most purposes (i think all but i never deal in absolutes in this game) So Silencer should own Viper mid? Viper has no way of removing last word/curse until 6 if poison attack doesn't count. | ||
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lolfail9001
Russian Federation40190 Posts
On February 10 2014 23:25 Orome wrote: So Silencer should own Viper mid? Viper has no way of removing last word/curse until 6 if poison attack doesn't count. Yes. Last word is better because curse will do similar damage to silencer if viper maxes corrosive skin and actually wins the last hit battle for silencer with disarm. | ||
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BobMcJohnson
France2916 Posts
Clock is probably my best hero, but item-wise I'm not sure what to buy. What feels the most comfortable for me is Arcane boots > Mek > Situational (most often blademail/agh) but I never see anybody going arcanes/mek on clock. Whenever I watch high level clock games they all seem to get phase/treads > Blademail/forcestaff, but when I try It I'm incredibly mana starved, and feel extremely squishy (especially when going phase). I dont get what I'm missing, without mana boots I feel like i'm oom all the time, and without mek I feel extremely squishy. Forcestaff especially, while good for positionning and stuff, is 2250g that bring no hp/armor. Treads > urn feels kinda ok, but I'm still finding myself mana starved with less armor :/ What's the reasoning behind the "standard" builds and what am I missing? | ||
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8916 Posts
dont try and copy item builds from pros just because it seems like the right thing to do. if you go arcanes/mek and youre comfortable playing it and you can win games with it, theres no reason to force yourself to adapt to a new build. also, those items arent unheard of in pro games either, its just tht clock doesnt need them as much. bottle is enough for clocks mana problems, force staff also gives mana. mek is usually gotten by someone else, but if it isnt clock can always get it. arcanes are also gotten on supports and pros are much better at using arcanes around teammates than pubs. just keep playing and when you get better naturally at managing your mana and stuff, then you can try out these builds and make them work On February 10 2014 23:09 lolfail9001 wrote: Okay, now i have a seriously strange question: why do pros build vanguard and blink on slardar all the time? I understand blink (though do not consider it that good, but trench tier problems) but vanguard!??? Item gives 0 damage on someone who really wants damage items to function well as damage dealer (due to his natural DPS being actually faceless void with amplify damage tier). slardar doesnt actually need damage items. his damage output from his ulti alone is enough in fights. also, teams benefit from having slardar survive longer rather than hit harder because of the way he can run and re-engage. if slardar lasts long enough in a fight he can force people to target him, escape, come back and throw stuns and amp damage and then force people to hit him again, thereby leading to a cycle. vanguard comes online very early and is a very good item despite what 90% of the people in this thread think. it allows him to survive early clashes and farm quicker by giving him the ability to clear jungles earlier. | ||
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idonthinksobro
3138 Posts
In organized games someone buys a medaillon for him and he gets blink, survivability, ac. At lvl 16 ~100 damage without any damage items ~200 if you bash but you will have 31 minus armor 5 from ac, 20 from ult, 6 from medaillon. That leads to 71% more damage dealt in most cases even if the target hero has like 10 armor. The reason vanguard is picked up it has an easy buildup and is available early, it allows for very agressive plays with slardar, you don't have to worry so much about diving towers and stuff. Slardar is a slow farmer he can't flash farm a wave like a luna or a gyro, if you would try to farm a survivability item that scales better into the lategame like a heart it takes forever and the benefits are only really good if you have the full thing. But Slardar is strong early, when other carrys are still paper and don't deal any damage he shines, that is why vanguard can be a good choice for him. | ||
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lolfail9001
Russian Federation40190 Posts
On February 10 2014 23:52 evilfatsh1t wrote: slardar doesnt actually need damage items. his damage output from his ulti alone is enough in fights. also, teams benefit from having slardar survive longer rather than hit harder because of the way he can run and re-engage. if slardar lasts long enough in a fight he can force people to target him, escape, come back and throw stuns and amp damage and then force people to hit him again, thereby leading to a cycle. vanguard comes online very early and is a very good item despite what 90% of the people in this thread think. it allows him to survive early clashes and farm quicker by giving him the ability to clear jungles earlier. You still forget that natural DPS of Slardar is similar to that of Faceless void. And ulti is not damage, it is damage amplification. Like seriously, you pay 800 gold more and get armlet instead of vanguard. More HP when it matters, more regen, more AS, ton of damage when toggled on and remains relevant until 30+ minutes. And 6 HP + natural regen is not that good to do what you describe. Honestly, his ulti is sick damage amplification (like -120% physical EHP or something like (1+0,06*armor)/(1+0,06*(armor-20)) multiplier for targets with 20+ armor at level 16, i may be wrong on this one). But if he does no damage, there is nothing to amplify. I mean, vanguard is good item if you actually have a good source of damage that is not related to your natural DPS. For example of spectre vanguard can be decent because she does damage early game mainly via desolate due to her natural dps (without passives) being lower than that of almost all rightclickers in game. For bb not only it synergizes with passive it gives him 1 more quill spray from bb passive. | ||
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8916 Posts
you cant compare slardar to void, theyre not similar at all aside from the fact that they have bash. voids job is to kill things as fast as he can during the duration of his chrono. slardars job is to weave in and out of fights while landing as many stuns as possible. the way the heroes are played are different from the start. also, amplify damage isnt there just for yourself, your whole team benefits from it what you seem to fail to realise is that slardar isnt a hero whos supposed to stand his ground and punch on with his opponents. slardar will lose those fights unless he has a significant level/item advantage over his opponent due to damage taken from sprint. if you dont use sprint then youre just not using slardar to his full potential also, funny how you mention spectre with vanguard. spectre does way less damage than slardar in the early lvls, even with desolate. on top of that, spectres shouldnt be in the middle of everything that early anyway, so if you can justify getting a vanguard on him (which i dont necessarily disagree with), but you cant see it on slardar then you need to reevaluate how you play these heroes. | ||
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lolfail9001
Russian Federation40190 Posts
On February 10 2014 23:53 idonthinksobro wrote: Slardar wants mobility, survivability, attack speed, minus armor, damage. In that order. He has a really good stun that also does physical damage (so you do more damage if you have minus armor) but he has problems getting close, blink is the obvious choice. In organized games someone buys a medaillon for him and he gets blink, survivability, ac. At lvl 16 ~100 damage without any damage items ~200 if you bash but you will have 31 minus armor 5 from ac, 20 from ult, 6 from medaillon. That leads to 71% more damage dealt in most cases even if the target hero has like 10 armor. The reason vanguard is picked up it has an easy buildup and is available early, it allows for very agressive plays with slardar, you don't have to worry so much about diving towers and stuff. Slardar is a slow farmer he can't flash farm a wave like a luna or a gyro, if you would try to farm a survivability item that scales better into the lategame like a heart it takes forever and the benefits are only really good if you have the full thing. But Slardar is strong early, when other carrys are still paper and don't deal any damage he shines, that is why vanguard can be a good choice for him. Minus armor more important than damage? Le wut? I mean, stacking -armor on slardar and with him is actually meh, since A. It is capped at -20 or +71% more damage. B. Minus armor actually heavily falls off when it gets big enough unless we talk about targets like DK or Terrorblade (or Morph who went all in on agility) who's natural armor is so high, large amounts of -armor may be needed. C. -Armor does not help when there is no damage. And average damage of 0.75*100+0.25*200=125 even if amplified by all you mentioned is 125*1.71=213 per hit. Now, let's add bkb to this (i won't even consider obvious damage items like armlet or crits (and they proc with bash and should multiply it's damage, should not they?)). We have 159*1.71=271 damage. Effing 60 dmg from item that actually gives terrible damage for cost and has main purpose of it's active. Next, about mobility. I may understand why you want blink, but honestly, he moves like clinkz with windwalk on when he presses sprint. Is that not mobile enough :O, considering his attack animation is not clinkz level of terrible so he has almost no problems chasing compared to most melees in the game (with obvious winners being spectre, any melee that got hit off with skadi in inventory or someone with who procced maim) granted he is kiteable so blink is understandable for initiation. Nah, i probably will not understand why you want vanguard on slardar when such item as armlet exists. On February 11 2014 00:21 evilfatsh1t wrote: slardars do go armlet, but its definitely more of an item for a #1 position slardar. you cant compare slardar to void, theyre not similar at all aside from the fact that they have bash. voids job is to kill things as fast as he can during the duration of his chrono. slardars job is to weave in and out of fights while landing as many stuns as possible. the way the heroes are played are different from the start. also, amplify damage isnt there just for yourself, your whole team benefits from it what you seem to fail to realise is that slardar isnt a hero whos supposed to stand his ground and punch on with his opponents. slardar will lose those fights unless he has a significant level/item advantage over his opponent due to damage taken from sprint. if you dont use sprint then youre just not using slardar to his full potential also, funny how you mention spectre with vanguard. spectre does way less damage than slardar in the early lvls, even with desolate. on top of that, spectres shouldnt be in the middle of everything that early anyway, so if you can justify getting a vanguard on him (which i dont necessarily disagree with), but you cant see it on slardar then you need to reevaluate how you play these heroes. I was talking exactly about #1 position slardar. #2 slardar is completely fine since he is mainly played as initiator and help to heavy physical dps coming from #1. I was just comparing their natural DPS . Everything else about them is different, yes. Amplify damage only benefits physical DPSers, so if you go mid slardar + #1 clinkz i am completely fine with whatever not-damage build slardar chooses since clinkz is a heavy physical DPS on his own and slardar on top of that is overkill-worthy. Damage taken from sprint can be negated by, you know, killing someone who can use it quickly with heavy physical dps of your own and well, bkb. Vanguard is tower diving item on spectre, not much else. And you greatly underrate desolate considering that it procs when attack is initiated, not when it hits so in chase desolate alone does ton of damage. And yes, i do not get vanguard on spec either. Vit booster and/or casual RoH does job fine for me with PMS. | ||
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Sn0_Man
Tebellong44238 Posts
Blink + treads into BKB into you already won but if you didn't start buying an AC and go from there. HH is surprisingly good on slardar as extension, though obviously HH is *always* situational. Vanguard is bad and every pro game that a slardar goes vanguard they either lose or don't actually benefit from having it. Although u can actually jungle with a vanguard which is an area slardar generally doesn't farm as well as most other carries. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
This is actually the real draw of Armlet if you buy it on Slardar--not it's combat effectiveness, but that it's a moderately-costed DPS item that allows you to farm at an acceptable rate toward your next item timing if the game doesn't currently make sense for the next of either Blink or BKB. If you have to delay your BKB timing because the game simply doesn't allow your team to 5v5 yet, Armlet allows you to farm fast enough to keep up with the flow of the game. Buying a BKB and sitting on it won't do you any good in that case. Vanguard is sort of ok-ish as a weird alternative timing to Blink, but you still have to end up getting Blink anyway. It's not bad 100% of the time, but its definitely an odd item to buy at an appropriate time, because it delays your Blink timing without giving you the farming tools to make the timing stronger. Essentially, Vanguard before Blink is specifically a choice for the kinds of games where: 1) the game isn't really one that allows you to gank successfully 2) the kinds of fights that are happening don't favor a strong immediate engage/counter-engage over stayability in a longer fight. | ||
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Sn0_Man
Tebellong44238 Posts
On February 11 2014 00:42 TheYango wrote: Armlet allows you to farm fast enough to keep up with the flow of the game. I contest this. If you can't fight with slardar then the only item thats gonna keep you "farming" at a real pace is midas or else like 10K gold of carry items. Armlet is more combat relevant than a midas obviously but it doesn't actually allow you to farm at a decent pace nor does it make you a god in fights, although I could see it after BKB I suppose, since for slardar getting from 2.7K to 4K or whatever for a bigger item is actually a chore. | ||
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